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Re: DYMT: Imi's Legacy

Mon Mar 11, 2019 5:22 pm

Redocbew wrote:
I hope someone also linked him to the manpage for logrotate and suggested he do some reading


yeah but that wheel totally sucks and mine is way, way better.
 
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Re: DYMT: Imi's Legacy

Mon Mar 11, 2019 5:30 pm

Glorious wrote:
Redocbew wrote:
I hope someone also linked him to the manpage for logrotate and suggested he do some reading


yeah but that wheel totally sucks and mine is way, way better.


I'll admit I've done that on occasion, but only when their wheel really did suck. :lol:

I often don't have the opportunity to rewrite bad code even if I really want to though. If it's not causing anyone any direct problems, then that's often a tough sell.
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Re: DYMT: Imi's Legacy

Mon Mar 11, 2019 6:52 pm

I don't think it was even his own custom wheel. He just wanted to throw away the logs from some random service we were using that did not produce useful logs.
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Re: DYMT: Imi's Legacy

Mon Mar 11, 2019 7:28 pm

Redocbew wrote:
I often don't have the opportunity to rewrite bad code even if I really want to though. If it's not causing anyone any direct problems, then that's often a tough sell.

Even if it is causing problems, management will often opt for the quick "Band Aid" fix over the solution which addresses tech debt and makes the code more maintainable over the long run. Or agree to the long-term solution provided that the Band Aid is applied first to stop the screaming from the customers, then yank the resources needed to implement the longer-term fix. Seen it happen over and over again at multiple workplaces. Once you've been in the industry long enough, you realize that this is in fact the norm, not the exception.
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Re: DYMT: Imi's Legacy

Tue Mar 12, 2019 7:54 am

JBI wrote:
Once you've been in the industry long enough, you realize that this is in fact the norm, not the exception.


Yes.

You become amazed that literally anything works, ever.
 
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Re: DYMT: Imi's Legacy

Tue Mar 12, 2019 9:51 am

Glorious wrote:
JBI wrote:
Once you've been in the industry long enough, you realize that this is in fact the norm, not the exception.

Yes.

You become amazed that literally anything works, ever.

And unfortunately, even the checks and balances which are supposed to keep "broken stuff" out of systems which affect health and safety, stuff still escapes "into the wild" occasionally. See: 737 Max 8. A subsystem where failure of a single component can put an aircraft into a fatal dive, without mandatory pilot training regarding the changed (vs. previous models of the same aircraft type) procedure to disable the affected subsystem should've never made it past airworthiness certification. Epic fail on multiple levels here.
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Re: DYMT: Imi's Legacy

Tue Mar 12, 2019 12:13 pm

just brew it! wrote:
Glorious wrote:
JBI wrote:
Once you've been in the industry long enough, you realize that this is in fact the norm, not the exception.

Yes.

You become amazed that literally anything works, ever.

And unfortunately, even the checks and balances which are supposed to keep "broken stuff" out of systems which affect health and safety, stuff still escapes "into the wild" occasionally. See: 737 Max 8. A subsystem where failure of a single component can put an aircraft into a fatal dive, without mandatory pilot training regarding the changed (vs. previous models of the same aircraft type) procedure to disable the affected subsystem should've never made it past airworthiness certification. Epic fail on multiple levels here.

Yeap. Folks can argue/debate at length about the efficacy or necessity of the changes, but regardless ---- changes which can (and have) resulted in the hull loss of an aircraft should have required mandatory retraining of all pilots flying the new model. The fact that they said almost nothing should result in several dozen Boeing executives being publicly drawn and quartered.
 
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Re: DYMT: Imi's Legacy

Tue Mar 12, 2019 12:19 pm

The Egg wrote:
... The fact that they said almost nothing should result in several dozen Boeing executives being publicly drawn and quartered.
lol this is the united states mate that doesn't happen.

(sorry, will not venture this close to R/P on this subject again)

FWIW I agree with everything you guys said.
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Re: DYMT: Imi's Legacy

Tue Mar 12, 2019 2:09 pm

just brew it! wrote:
See: 737 Max 8. A subsystem where failure of a single component can put an aircraft into a fatal dive, without mandatory pilot training regarding the changed (vs. previous models of the same aircraft type) procedure to disable the affected subsystem should've never made it past airworthiness certification. Epic fail on multiple levels here.

I strongly disagree, there is no changed procedure. If the trim is doing something other than what you want it to do then you flip the switches to turn off the trim motors and spin the trim wheel. It doesn't matter if it is the AutoPilot (same as on the 737NG), the Speed Trim System (same as on the 737NG) or the Maneuvering Characteristics Augmentation System (new on 737 MAX). All those systems are just inputs in to the trim system.

It's also premature to start banning the plane based on the Ethiopian Airlines crash when they haven't read out the DFDR yet. Until they do, nobody knows if this is a trim system issue or something like a pitot or static port blocked and the pilot failing to fly pitch and power. It wouldn't be the first time there have been issues with insects blocking ports or the pitot tube covers not being removed.

There was a very high authority gradient in the Ethiopian Airlines cockpit - one of the most experienced captains with a very new first officer. If the captain makes a mistake then despite all their Crew Resource Management training, is the first officer really going to call them out on it? It doesn't matter if it was MCAS or invalid speeds, they should have been able to cope with the problem if they followed their training. There are very few things that really take a modern jet airliner down, but the pilots messing it up will do it every time.
 
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Re: DYMT: Imi's Legacy

Tue Mar 12, 2019 2:16 pm

notfred wrote:
just brew it! wrote:
See: 737 Max 8. A subsystem where failure of a single component can put an aircraft into a fatal dive, without mandatory pilot training regarding the changed (vs. previous models of the same aircraft type) procedure to disable the affected subsystem should've never made it past airworthiness certification. Epic fail on multiple levels here.

I strongly disagree, there is no changed procedure. If the trim is doing something other than what you want it to do then you flip the switches to turn off the trim motors and spin the trim wheel. It doesn't matter if it is the AutoPilot (same as on the 737NG), the Speed Trim System (same as on the 737NG) or the Maneuvering Characteristics Augmentation System (new on 737 MAX). All those systems are just inputs in to the trim system.

It's also premature to start banning the plane based on the Ethiopian Airlines crash when they haven't read out the DFDR yet. Until they do, nobody knows if this is a trim system issue or something like a pitot or static port blocked and the pilot failing to fly pitch and power. It wouldn't be the first time there have been issues with insects blocking ports or the pitot tube covers not being removed.

My understanding is that previous versions of the 737 allowed the pilot to disengage the automatic trim system by yanking back sharply on the yoke, and that this feature was removed on the Max 8. If this is indeed the case, then it is a significant change in operating procedures. If this is not the case, then that may lead me to change my opinion.
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Re: DYMT: Imi's Legacy

Tue Mar 12, 2019 5:46 pm

just brew it! wrote:
My understanding is that previous versions of the 737 allowed the pilot to disengage the automatic trim system by yanking back sharply on the yoke, and that this feature was removed on the Max 8. If this is indeed the case, then it is a significant change in operating procedures. If this is not the case, then that may lead me to change my opinion.

Is that the speculation now? If so, that would border on criminally stupid on Boeing's part. Changing a major feature that relies on muscle memory in a crisis, should only be done if the previous iteration was itself causing serious incidents.
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Re: DYMT: Imi's Legacy

Tue Mar 12, 2019 5:55 pm

ludi wrote:
just brew it! wrote:
My understanding is that previous versions of the 737 allowed the pilot to disengage the automatic trim system by yanking back sharply on the yoke, and that this feature was removed on the Max 8. If this is indeed the case, then it is a significant change in operating procedures. If this is not the case, then that may lead me to change my opinion.
Is that the speculation now? If so, that would border on criminally stupid on Boeing's part. Changing a major feature that relies on muscle memory in a crisis, should only be done if the previous iteration was itself causing serious incidents.

The few bits I've seen on TV allude to a "new & additional" trim system that requires a different disengagement method, and further allude that Boeing's sole notification was buried in MAX8 flight manuals. What I've seen doesn't make clear if there are now two separate trim systems to disengage via two different methods, or if ALL trim disengagement has been moved to a new method. The eventual NTSB report should prove interesting.

This brings up another point, one which I used to think automatically favored Boeing over Airbus. We all know that airline economics require the avionics to squeeze every last drop of fuel burn out of the plane. Prior to the MAX8 issues, it was my belief that in all Boeing products the pilot could get ALL of the electronic assistants out of the way and fly the plane bare-metal while there was no corresponding bare-metal mode in Airbus products. The way I'd heard it described was that Airbus wouldn't let you bend the airframe, PERIOD, whereas Boeing would leave that to the pilot.
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Re: DYMT: Imi's Legacy

Wed Mar 13, 2019 3:34 am

A random Microsoft-ism: If you are on Office 365 in a domain setting and have the non-standard theme (std is colorful), if you change your AD password, it will revert back to the default them on every open until you go into Office and re-login with your new password.
https://superuser.com/questions/1161420 ... s-restarts
 
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Re: DYMT: Imi's Legacy

Wed Mar 13, 2019 7:41 am

New overused, irritating weather word: Chilly.

Unless they're doing a forecast for the kindergarten class (several of whom have tummy aches), this is not an acceptable word.
 
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Re: DYMT: Imi's Legacy

Wed Mar 13, 2019 8:12 am

The Egg wrote:
New overused, irritating weather word: Chilly.

Unless they're doing a forecast for the kindergarten class (several of whom have tummy aches), this is not an acceptable word.

It's not new. Maybe it's just new in your area? Seems like it has been in pretty common usage going back as far as I can remember.
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Re: DYMT: Imi's Legacy

Wed Mar 13, 2019 8:29 am

just brew it! wrote:
The Egg wrote:
New overused, irritating weather word: Chilly.

Unless they're doing a forecast for the kindergarten class (several of whom have tummy aches), this is not an acceptable word.

It's not new. Maybe it's just new in your area? Seems like it has been in pretty common usage going back as far as I can remember.

No.....I know parents use it when talking to their kids; I'm mainly referring to its use in weather forecasting. My fault for not really clarifying that.
 
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Re: DYMT: Imi's Legacy

Wed Mar 13, 2019 8:31 am

The Egg wrote:
just brew it! wrote:
The Egg wrote:
New overused, irritating weather word: Chilly.

Unless they're doing a forecast for the kindergarten class (several of whom have tummy aches), this is not an acceptable word.

It's not new. Maybe it's just new in your area? Seems like it has been in pretty common usage going back as far as I can remember.

No.....I know parents use it when talking to their kids; I'm mainly referring to its use in weather forecasting. My fault for not really clarifying that.

I knew you meant weather forecasting. It's been in common use for a while, at least here (Chicago area).
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Re: DYMT: Imi's Legacy

Wed Mar 13, 2019 9:44 am

Captain Ned wrote:
ludi wrote:
just brew it! wrote:
My understanding is that previous versions of the 737 allowed the pilot to disengage the automatic trim system by yanking back sharply on the yoke, and that this feature was removed on the Max 8. If this is indeed the case, then it is a significant change in operating procedures. If this is not the case, then that may lead me to change my opinion.
Is that the speculation now? If so, that would border on criminally stupid on Boeing's part. Changing a major feature that relies on muscle memory in a crisis, should only be done if the previous iteration was itself causing serious incidents.

The few bits I've seen on TV allude to a "new & additional" trim system that requires a different disengagement method, and further allude that Boeing's sole notification was buried in MAX8 flight manuals. What I've seen doesn't make clear if there are now two separate trim systems to disengage via two different methods, or if ALL trim disengagement has been moved to a new method. The eventual NTSB report should prove interesting.

As I mentioned above, the new bit is MCAS. The 737 MAX 8 has substantially larger engines hanging out in front of the wings compared with the original 737-100. At high angles of attack these produce additional lift that is in front of the centre of gravity - resulting in an additional pitch up force. MCAS takes an input from the angle of attack sensors and feeds in pitch down trim if the the nose is at a high angle of attack. Originally it was just reading from one of the two sensors and in the case of the Lion Air crash one of the sensors was faulty, leading to it trimming nose down when not needed. New software will compare the values from both sensors. It should be noted that the the sensor had failed earlier and the previous crew turned off the trim switches and flew the airplane safely. The crew that crashed didn't do what the previous crew had done.

The trim on the 737 (and almost all modern jets) is done by moving the whole horizontal tailplane rather than just having trim tabs on the back of the elevator. This means that the trim is more powerful than the elevator. Because of this they make the trim wheels big with black and white markings and they clatter when they spin. Take a look at a training video for runaway trim https://youtu.be/3pPRuFHR1co?t=165

As far as I'm aware, there is no difference in trim system behaviour with respect to the control column inputs.

Captain Ned wrote:
This brings up another point, one which I used to think automatically favored Boeing over Airbus. We all know that airline economics require the avionics to squeeze every last drop of fuel burn out of the plane. Prior to the MAX8 issues, it was my belief that in all Boeing products the pilot could get ALL of the electronic assistants out of the way and fly the plane bare-metal while there was no corresponding bare-metal mode in Airbus products. The way I'd heard it described was that Airbus wouldn't let you bend the airframe, PERIOD, whereas Boeing would leave that to the pilot.
That's an overly simplistic view. Modern Boeings like the 777 are Fly by Wire, Airbus has Direct Law where the stick movement moves the flight control surfaces: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flight_control_modes

Also as I mentioned above, there is no indication that the Ethiopian Airlines crash is MCAS related. All we know so far is:
1) The pilot reported a problem to ATC and requested a return.
2) The flight accelerated horizontally but was unstable vertically.
3) It impacted at a high speed vertically.

Yes, trim issues can lead to this, but so can lots of other things.
 
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Re: DYMT: Imi's Legacy

Wed Mar 13, 2019 10:20 am

notfred wrote:
That's an overly simplistic view. Modern Boeings like the 777 are Fly by Wire, Airbus has Direct Law where the stick movement moves the flight control surfaces: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flight_control_modes

The key is whether or not the FBW computer has control input limits that the pilot cannot exceed, i.e. will the FBW computer allow a control input that might exceed g-load limits. It was my belief (which may no longer be, or have ever been, correct) that Boeing FBW would allow full control command while Airbus FBW would limit control command to pre-defined limits.
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Re: DYMT: Imi's Legacy

Wed Mar 13, 2019 2:54 pm

In the normal mode you are correct, the Boeing computers will push back on the stick if you are about to go outside the limits but if you push hard enough it will go. Airbus will not go outside the limits in normal mode. As things fail (or are switched off by the pilots) the Airbus loses some of those protections and will allow you to break the aircraft.

Worth noting on the Airbus philosophy is the Air France 447 crash. When the pitot tube iced up the pilots merely had to fly it straight and level until it thawed out. This had happened many times on many aircraft around the world. However, in AF447 the pilot pulled back on the stick. Normally Airbus protections will stop you from stalling but the failure of the speed input meant that protection was lost, the plane climbed to coffin corner, stalled and was held in the stall for over 3 minutes as it descended.
 
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Re: DYMT: Imi's Legacy

Wed Mar 13, 2019 2:57 pm

US grounds all 737 MAX 8 and 9 flights.



Some additional reading material for those interested (sorry for all the in-line videos).
Pilots Complained About The 737 MAX In A Federal Database
 
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Re: DYMT: Imi's Legacy

Wed Mar 13, 2019 3:48 pm

Can a mod kick this to its own discussion? This is way too organized for DYMT.
 
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Re: DYMT: Imi's Legacy

Wed Mar 13, 2019 4:50 pm

Usacomp2k3 wrote:
Can a mod kick this to its own discussion? This is way too organized for DYMT.

Surely you must be aware of the role of the strange attractor in chaotic systems.
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Re: DYMT: Imi's Legacy

Wed Mar 13, 2019 10:20 pm

just brew it! wrote:
The Egg wrote:
just brew it! wrote:
It's not new. Maybe it's just new in your area? Seems like it has been in pretty common usage going back as far as I can remember.

No.....I know parents use it when talking to their kids; I'm mainly referring to its use in weather forecasting. My fault for not really clarifying that.

I knew you meant weather forecasting. It's been in common use for a while, at least here (Chicago area).

Downstate too. Also old people say it all the time. Guess who watches TV over the air still. ;)
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Re: DYMT: Imi's Legacy

Wed Mar 13, 2019 10:28 pm

derFunkenstein wrote:
Downstate too. Also old people say it all the time. Guess who watches TV over the air still. ;)

It's been "chilly" in New England long before a bunch of frat bros tried to make iced tea in Boston Harbor.
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Re: DYMT: Imi's Legacy

Thu Mar 14, 2019 12:40 am

Chilly = light jacket. Cold = thicker jacket.
 
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Re: DYMT: Imi's Legacy

Thu Mar 14, 2019 8:03 am

derFunkenstein wrote:
just brew it! wrote:
I knew you meant weather forecasting. It's been in common use for a while, at least here (Chicago area).

Downstate too. Also old people say it all the time. Guess who watches TV over the air still. ;)

Pretty sure the default weather app on my smartphone uses it occasionally too.
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Re: DYMT: Imi's Legacy

Thu Mar 14, 2019 8:14 am

:evil:
 
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Re: DYMT: Imi's Legacy

Thu Mar 14, 2019 8:28 am

The Egg wrote:
:evil:

Looks like use of the word "chilly" is getting a rather... *ahem*... chilly reception from The Egg. :wink:
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Re: DYMT: Imi's Legacy

Thu Mar 14, 2019 9:48 am

"Chilly" is a normal word here. Falls somewhere between cool and cold.
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