Personal computing discussed

Moderators: askfranklin, renee, emkubed, Captain Ned

 
biffzinker
Gerbil Jedi
Topic Author
Posts: 1998
Joined: Tue Mar 21, 2006 3:53 pm
Location: AK, USA

Tesla Model S Totaled Due To Battery Malfuntion

Sat Aug 20, 2016 9:56 pm

A test drive of the Tesla Model S abruptly ended recently when the car's battery exploded, destroying the entire vehicle. The four people who were in the Model S during the test drive got out fine. Since the story first appeared online earlier this week, Tesla has confirmed the incident and says an investigation is taking place.Speaking with Sud Ouest (France), the driver explained that he heard a loud noise when he accelerated. Once a warning message was delivered by the car, everyone got out. It took under five minutes for the car to be totaled, says the driver.

Source: NextPowerUp
Last edited by biffzinker on Mon Aug 22, 2016 11:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
It would take you 2,363 continuous hours or 98 days,11 hours, and 35 minutes of gameplay to complete your Steam library.
In this time you could travel to Venus one time.
 
Acidicheartburn
Gerbil Team Leader
Posts: 200
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2015 4:12 pm

Re: Tesla Model S Totaled Due To Battery Explosion

Sun Aug 21, 2016 12:19 am

Before anyone jumps on the bandwagon (not that I necessarily expect that around here), just know that plenty of test drives with ICE cars have ended in similar disaster yet have gone widely unreported.  Teething issues with electric cars are to be expected, and the Model S is still an outstanding achievement.

With that out of the way, I'm interested in seeing what Tesla has to say about the probable cause of the explosion and if it's determined to be an inherent issue with battery-powered cars or something more design-specific.
 
arunphilip
Gerbil Team Leader
Posts: 259
Joined: Sun Jul 28, 2013 11:46 am

Re: Tesla Model S Totaled Due To Battery Explosion

Sun Aug 21, 2016 1:48 am

Here's Ars' coverage: http://arstechnica.com/cars/2016/08/tes ... tery-fire/

They've mentioned that previous fires were caused by the battery pack being punctured, and that Tesla has since added protection to prevent that. Given that such protection was in place, and that this vehicle in question did not experience any impact, it would be interesting to know the outcome of their findings.
 
yogibbear
Gerbil Elite
Posts: 920
Joined: Fri Feb 08, 2008 11:30 am

Re: Tesla Model S Totaled Due To Battery Explosion

Sun Aug 21, 2016 2:39 am

These types of batteries DO this. It's a thing. My hobby ones if mistreated in the discharge/recharge/left lying around somewhere stupid (too hot/too cold/too damp etc.) and then not checked to see if they're still good can be made to burst into flames on cue if ya want to have some fun. Maybe the owner of a Tesla has to visually check the battery every time before turning on the ignition? :D That said I'm sure the industrial version of these batteries that Tesla uses has way more robust design and much better protection than anything in my hobby collection, but still this sort of fire is what can happen if the battery gets unhappy.
Core i7 4770K | eVGA GTX1080 FTW ACX 3.0 | 16GB DDR3 2133mhz | Asus Z87-PLUS | Corsair HX650 | Fractal Define R4 | Samsung 840 Pro 256GB | Windows 10 x64
 
nico1982
Gerbil
Posts: 38
Joined: Fri Jan 29, 2010 7:30 am

Re: Tesla Model S Totaled Due To Battery Explosion

Sun Aug 21, 2016 3:52 am

Acidicheartburn wrote:
Before anyone jumps on the bandwagon (not that I necessarily expect that around here), just know that plenty of test drives with ICE cars have ended in similar disaster yet have gone widely unreported.  Teething issues with electric cars are to be expected, and the Model S is still an outstanding achievement.

No need to be apologetic, either. If the report are accurate, the glaring issue is that the warning was a bleak, consumer-electronic-tier "battery charge problem" notification. They stopped and dismounted on the Tesla employee prompt and the car was on fire within a minute.
I'd expect the battery to be stuffed with sensors and the system being able to detect catastraphic failures at the earliest and display a more sensible "battery failure imminent. stop and exit the vehicle now".
Automotive fires are no joke. Wrong place, like a tunnel, and the death toll can be in the dozens.
 
HERETIC
Gerbil XP
Posts: 488
Joined: Sun Aug 24, 2014 4:10 am

Re: Tesla Model S Totaled Due To Battery Explosion

Sun Aug 21, 2016 4:36 am

yogibbear wrote:
These types of batteries DO this. It's a thing. My hobby ones if mistreated in the discharge/recharge/left lying around somewhere stupid (too hot/too cold/too damp etc.) and then not checked to see if they're still good can be made to burst into flames on cue if ya want to have some fun. Maybe the owner of a Tesla has to visually check the battery every time before turning on the ignition?  :D That said I'm sure the industrial version of these batteries that Tesla uses has way more robust design and much better protection than anything in my hobby collection, but still this sort of fire is what can happen if the battery gets unhappy.

Yup-Just ask apple,plenty of i-phones reported bursting into flames..............
Difference is i-phone is like a small grenade a Tesla is like riding on a bomb....................
 
JustAnEngineer
Gerbil God
Posts: 19250
Joined: Sat Jan 26, 2002 7:00 pm
Location: The Heart of Dixie

Re: Tesla Model S Totaled Due To Battery Explosion

Sun Aug 21, 2016 5:09 am

yogibbear wrote:
I'm sure the industrial version of these batteries that Tesla uses has way more robust design and much better protection than anything in my hobby collection, but still this sort of fire is what can happen if the battery gets unhappy.

...and surely the aircraft-grade version of the batteries that Boeing uses couldn't have any problems...
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nati ... /19735719/
1: i7-9700K, NH-D15, Z390M Pro4, 32GiB, RX Vega64, ½TB 960Pro +2TB MX500, Define Mini-C, SSR-850PX, LG 32UD99 + UltraSharp U2410, RK9000V2-BR
2: R5-3600X, Wraith Spire, B450M Steel Legend, 32GiB, RX5500XT, 2TB SX8200Pro, P160, SS-660XP2, TV, G610
 
ludi
Lord High Gerbil
Posts: 8539
Joined: Fri Jun 21, 2002 10:47 pm
Location: Sunny Colorado front range

Re: Tesla Model S Totaled Due To Battery Explosion

Mon Aug 22, 2016 1:30 am

Well, it's not great publicity for Tesla; but the time from major malfunction to first flame, and subsequent time to total involvement, are really no different than a conventional vehicle fire.
Abacus Model 2.5 | Quad-Row FX with 256 Cherry Red Slider Beads | Applewood Frame | Water Cooling by Brita Filtration
 
just brew it!
Administrator
Posts: 53894
Joined: Tue Aug 20, 2002 10:51 pm
Location: Somewhere, having a beer

Re: Tesla Model S Totaled Due To Battery Explosion

Mon Aug 22, 2016 1:48 am

ludi wrote:
Well, it's not great publicity for Tesla; but the time from major malfunction to first flame, and subsequent time to total involvement, are really no different than a conventional vehicle fire.

Quite true. Gas tank or massive lithium battery pack, either way you're basically sitting on a crapload of potential energy just waiting to be released. If anything goes wrong which results in the uncontrolled release of said energy, things will not end well.
Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
 
Captain Ned
Global Moderator
Posts: 28123
Joined: Wed Jan 16, 2002 7:00 pm
Location: Vermont, USA

Re: Tesla Model S Totaled Due To Battery Explosion

Mon Aug 22, 2016 5:19 am

just brew it! wrote:
Quite true. Gas tank or massive lithium battery pack, either way you're basically sitting on a crapload of potential energy just waiting to be released. If anything goes wrong which results in the uncontrolled release of said energy, things will not end well.

Agreed, but over the past 100 years or so we've sussed out all of the accidental and improbable ways for that potential energy to escape a gas tank. We're still in late alpha/early beta when it comes to batteries.
What we have today is way too much pluribus and not enough unum.
 
Chrispy_
Maximum Gerbil
Posts: 4668
Joined: Fri Apr 09, 2004 3:49 pm
Location: Europe, most frequently London.

Re: Tesla Model S Totaled Due To Battery Explosion

Mon Aug 22, 2016 5:20 am

Can we please stop with the click-baity, sensationalist headlines?!

"Battery Explosion" makes it sound like there was an actual explosion with shrapnel and injuries. I've seen 18650 batteries in thermal runaway before - the panasonics used in the Teslas are in fact pretty safe with good venting. At worst, a failing 18650 looks like a little flare, there is a lot of smoke and perhaps a small flame which burns for 30 seconds or so until all the lithium has reacted. Only the cheap Chinese fakes actually explode, because they're so cheap that even the safety venting is fake.

The car had a battery fault that resulted in thermal runaway. There was a whole minute between warning the occupants to pull over and get out before the fire even became apparent. Gasoline cars catch fire all the time, but they don't attract headlines like this because it's not exactly news.

Yes, it caught fire and burned after an admirable safety warning. Nobody was injured. I'm sure people were a little shocked that a car can just combust like that but batteries *are* volatile. Dumb ass reporting and fear-mongering headlines like this are part of the reason why electric cars aren't gaining traction in the market as fast as they should. Instead we're still belching out CO2, using up our fossil-fuel reserves and generally making very little progress in preventing the damage that internal combustion engines contribute to the environment.
Congratulations, you've noticed that this year's signature is based on outdated internet memes; CLICK HERE NOW to experience this unforgettable phenomenon. This sentence is just filler and as irrelevant as my signature.
 
Krogoth
Gerbil Elder
Posts: 5881
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2003 3:20 pm
Location: somewhere on Core Prime
Contact:

Re: Tesla Model S Totaled Due To Battery Explosion

Mon Aug 22, 2016 5:30 am

Electric cars are extremely limited in their utility until we develop an energy storage solution that has far greater density then current options without being cost-prohibitive.
Gigabyte Z390 AORUS-PRO Coffee Lake R 9700K, 2x8GiB of G.Skill DDR4-3600, Sapphire RX Vega 64, Seasonic GX-850 and Fractal Define 7 (W)
Ivy Bridge 3570K, 2x4GiB of G.Skill RIPSAW DDR3-1600, Gigabyte Z77X-UD3H, Corsair CX-750M V2, and PC-7B
 
Captain Ned
Global Moderator
Posts: 28123
Joined: Wed Jan 16, 2002 7:00 pm
Location: Vermont, USA

Re: Tesla Model S Totaled Due To Battery Explosion

Mon Aug 22, 2016 5:36 am

Krogoth wrote:
Electric cars are extremely limited in their utility until we develop an energy storage solution that has far greater density then current options without being cost-prohibitive.

Not exactly a new thought and what we have on hand now for that involves radioactive materials. Good luck selling that to the PriTards.
What we have today is way too much pluribus and not enough unum.
 
Krogoth
Gerbil Elder
Posts: 5881
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2003 3:20 pm
Location: somewhere on Core Prime
Contact:

Re: Tesla Model S Totaled Due To Battery Explosion

Mon Aug 22, 2016 5:48 am

Captain Ned wrote:
Krogoth wrote:
Electric cars are extremely limited in their utility until we develop an energy storage solution that has far greater density then current options without being cost-prohibitive.

Not exactly a new thought and what we have on hand now for that involves radioactive materials. Good luck selling that to the PriTards.


Radioactives are too cost-prohibitive for widespread use and they have their own set of nasty issues.
Gigabyte Z390 AORUS-PRO Coffee Lake R 9700K, 2x8GiB of G.Skill DDR4-3600, Sapphire RX Vega 64, Seasonic GX-850 and Fractal Define 7 (W)
Ivy Bridge 3570K, 2x4GiB of G.Skill RIPSAW DDR3-1600, Gigabyte Z77X-UD3H, Corsair CX-750M V2, and PC-7B
 
The Egg
Minister of Gerbil Affairs
Posts: 2938
Joined: Sun Apr 06, 2008 4:46 pm

Re: Tesla Model S Totaled Due To Battery Explosion

Mon Aug 22, 2016 7:42 am

I call sabotage by the other car makers.  :P
 
techguy
Gerbil XP
Posts: 404
Joined: Tue Aug 10, 2010 9:12 am

Re: Tesla Model S Totaled Due To Battery Explosion

Mon Aug 22, 2016 8:22 am

Lithium battery technology is inherently dangerous.  It doesn't matter the application.  We need something else.  
 
Chrispy_
Maximum Gerbil
Posts: 4668
Joined: Fri Apr 09, 2004 3:49 pm
Location: Europe, most frequently London.

Re: Tesla Model S Totaled Due To Battery Explosion

Mon Aug 22, 2016 8:30 am

The issue with nuclear cars is not just in concept, but also about what happens when they crash.

If a crash damages the reactor chamber you have a Chernobyl-like escape of thorium or uranium radiocative vapor. An exclusion zone with even a tiny quarter-mile radius is not going to go down well if it's in the middle of spaghetti junction where three freeways merge.

If the power source is an RTG, contamination from a crash breaching the isotope container isn't even the biggest problem; You have a bigger issue of plutonium being available to the general public, which means making plutonium available to terrorists with a credit card. OMGNOPE.JPG.

Nuclear power-plants are safe when managed by responsible cultures. The level of fail involved in the Chernobyl incident was staggering, and quite frankly unlikely to ever be repeated because of the lessons learned. If you have half an hour to kill the Wikipedia page is an interesting read, even though I had a fairly good idea about what happened before reading it. It's unlikely a reactor will ever be built again that doesn't fail-safe - in other words, every possible failure will result in a safe shutdown, including human error. The Fukushima incident despite leaking only 1/10th the radiation (and in a controlled manner) was also a combination of neglect where a study was shown that a Tsunami had the ability to wipe out every single failsafe simultaneously, and devastate the infrastructure required to provide external failsafes. Nothing was done about it, of course, which is why it made the news.

Given the way nuclear fuel and coolant aren't "safe" if mismanged, I don't think auto-makers who are caught cheating on emissions test to make a quick buck are the right sort of people to trust with fission reactors. Even if they were, I wouldn't trust anyone without a deep knowledge of radiation and the specific type of reactor and reaction to be in charge of one. Even by train or armoured truck, spent fuel is moved in containers with a 50:1 weight ration. That's half a kilo of uranium surrounded by 50 kilos of lead and steel. It doesn't even scale down like that though, since 5g of uranium still requires the exact same thickness of steel and lead to prevent radiation getting through. You think lithium batteries in an electric car are heavy? You ain't seen nothin' yet!
Congratulations, you've noticed that this year's signature is based on outdated internet memes; CLICK HERE NOW to experience this unforgettable phenomenon. This sentence is just filler and as irrelevant as my signature.
 
Captain Ned
Global Moderator
Posts: 28123
Joined: Wed Jan 16, 2002 7:00 pm
Location: Vermont, USA

Re: Tesla Model S Totaled Due To Battery Explosion

Mon Aug 22, 2016 8:37 am

I see that I forgot the [/sarcasm] tag.
What we have today is way too much pluribus and not enough unum.
 
just brew it!
Administrator
Posts: 53894
Joined: Tue Aug 20, 2002 10:51 pm
Location: Somewhere, having a beer

Re: Tesla Model S Totaled Due To Battery Explosion

Mon Aug 22, 2016 9:03 am

techguy wrote:
Lithium battery technology is inherently dangerous.  It doesn't matter the application.  We need something else.  

Any energy storage tech with enough power density to operate a vehicle the size of a typical automobile with reasonable range is going to be inherently dangerous. People just need to accept that fact, take reasonable measures to mitigate the risk, and get on with their lives.
Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
 
Glorious
Gerbilus Supremus
Posts: 11978
Joined: Tue Aug 27, 2002 6:35 pm

Re: Tesla Model S Totaled Due To Battery Explosion

Mon Aug 22, 2016 9:04 am

Chrispy_ wrote:
The issue with nuclear cars is not just in concept, but also about what happens when they crash.


Or several days after it. We have multiple radiation detectors, but if a radioactive source ends up in one of our crashed cars bundles (yes, crushing cars into cubes is a real thing, it's not just the movies), we're in for a very, very bad day. And, at the scale of ~10 million recycled cars a year, I would start to get worried...

...but not really, because like you said, there is the whole conceptual problem. Using the electrical power of an RTG comparable in weight to like a V6 gives you power comparable to a garbage disposal: a 50cc scooter motor would entirely outclass it. Using the thermals gets you into lawnmower engine class, but only when ignoring the inevitable conversion. With it, we're probably back into the scooter motor range again: the vehicle wouldn't move.

You run headfirst into the problem were the energy-to-weight provided by the decay, in absolute, theoretical terms, puts you roughly into the same territory as what is practically achieved by like a 2.0L I4 engine.
 
just brew it!
Administrator
Posts: 53894
Joined: Tue Aug 20, 2002 10:51 pm
Location: Somewhere, having a beer

Re: Tesla Model S Totaled Due To Battery Explosion

Mon Aug 22, 2016 9:13 am

Bummer. I want my Mr. Fusion!
Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
 
MileageMayVary
Gerbil XP
Posts: 370
Joined: Thu Dec 10, 2015 9:18 am
Location: Baltimore

Re: Tesla Model S Totaled Due To Battery Explosion

Mon Aug 22, 2016 9:22 am

this? http://news.mit.edu/2016/lithium-metal-batteries-double-power-consumer-electronics-0817

"“With two-times the energy density, we can make a battery half the size, but that still lasts the same amount of time, as a lithium ion battery. Or we can make a battery the same size as a lithium ion battery, but now it will last twice as long,” says Hu, who co-invented the battery at MIT and is now CEO of SolidEnergy."

I guess they're calling it Lithium Metal instead of Lithium Ion.


I didn't understand Boeing's push to use Li-ion for 787s until I got one for my motorcycle. The weight savings are AMAZING.
Main rig: Ryzen 3600X, R9 290@1100MHz, 16GB@2933MHz, 1080-1440-1080 Ultrasharps.
 
Captain Ned
Global Moderator
Posts: 28123
Joined: Wed Jan 16, 2002 7:00 pm
Location: Vermont, USA

Re: Tesla Model S Totaled Due To Battery Explosion

Mon Aug 22, 2016 10:02 am

MileageMayVary wrote:
I didn't understand Boeing's push to use Li-ion for 787s until I got one for my motorcycle. The weight savings are AMAZING.

And what is lithium's atomic number??

Three.
What we have today is way too much pluribus and not enough unum.
 
The Egg
Minister of Gerbil Affairs
Posts: 2938
Joined: Sun Apr 06, 2008 4:46 pm

Re: Tesla Model S Totaled Due To Battery Explosion

Mon Aug 22, 2016 10:36 am

Captain Ned wrote:
MileageMayVary wrote:
I didn't understand Boeing's push to use Li-ion for 787s until I got one for my motorcycle. The weight savings are AMAZING.

And what is lithium's atomic number??

Three.

This is probably gonna make me look pretty stupid, but I never realized Lithium was that low.  Despite having looked at the periodic table many times, I mentally thought of it more in the range of 11 (which is apparently Sodium), rather than being just above Helium.   :oops:
 
just brew it!
Administrator
Posts: 53894
Joined: Tue Aug 20, 2002 10:51 pm
Location: Somewhere, having a beer

Re: Tesla Model S Totaled Due To Battery Explosion

Mon Aug 22, 2016 10:43 am

The Egg wrote:
This is probably gonna make me look pretty stupid, but I never realized Lithium was that low.  Despite having looked at the periodic table many times, I mentally thought of it more in the range of 11 (which is apparently Sodium), rather than being just above Helium.   :oops:

Yup, it is the least dense solid element, and one of only three metals which are less dense than water.
Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
 
Glorious
Gerbilus Supremus
Posts: 11978
Joined: Tue Aug 27, 2002 6:35 pm

Re: Tesla Model S Totaled Due To Battery Explosion

Mon Aug 22, 2016 10:52 am

JBI wrote:
and one of only three metals which are less dense than water.


Just don't try and empirically test that last bit without safety equipment. :lol:
 
ludi
Lord High Gerbil
Posts: 8539
Joined: Fri Jun 21, 2002 10:47 pm
Location: Sunny Colorado front range

Re: Tesla Model S Totaled Due To Battery Explosion

Mon Aug 22, 2016 10:52 am

Chrispy_ wrote:
Can we please stop with the click-baity, sensationalist headlines?!

........

Instead we're still belching out CO2, using up our fossil-fuel reserves and generally making very little progress in preventing the damage that internal combustion engines contribute to the environment.

Irony aside, I wonder what the environmental impact is for manufacturing and packaging about 7000 lithium cells, then recharging them over and over using electricity from somewhere.

To re-coin a classic Krogoth, wake me when supercapacitors are $1/kW.
Abacus Model 2.5 | Quad-Row FX with 256 Cherry Red Slider Beads | Applewood Frame | Water Cooling by Brita Filtration
 
just brew it!
Administrator
Posts: 53894
Joined: Tue Aug 20, 2002 10:51 pm
Location: Somewhere, having a beer

Re: Tesla Model S Totaled Due To Battery Explosion

Mon Aug 22, 2016 11:07 am

In Illinois (and other states where a substantial fraction of the electricity is still produced by coal-fired generators) EVs and plug-in hybrids are effectively coal-powered vehicles.
Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
 
ludi
Lord High Gerbil
Posts: 8539
Joined: Fri Jun 21, 2002 10:47 pm
Location: Sunny Colorado front range

Re: Tesla Model S Totaled Due To Battery Explosion

Mon Aug 22, 2016 11:29 am

just brew it! wrote:
In Illinois (and other states where a substantial fraction of the electricity is still produced by coal-fired generators) EVs and plug-in hybrids are effectively coal-powered vehicles.

Elon Musk will never let me own one, because "Coal-Powered Vehicle" would be my one and only bumper sticker.
Abacus Model 2.5 | Quad-Row FX with 256 Cherry Red Slider Beads | Applewood Frame | Water Cooling by Brita Filtration
 
biffzinker
Gerbil Jedi
Topic Author
Posts: 1998
Joined: Tue Mar 21, 2006 3:53 pm
Location: AK, USA

Re: Tesla Model S Totaled Due To Battery Explosion

Mon Aug 22, 2016 11:33 am

Chrispy_ wrote:
Can we please stop with the click-baity, sensationalist headlines?!

Sorry about the headline Chrispy, I thought it would still be an interesting topic for discussion.
It would take you 2,363 continuous hours or 98 days,11 hours, and 35 minutes of gameplay to complete your Steam library.
In this time you could travel to Venus one time.

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google Adsense [Bot], Igor_Kavinski, whm1974 and 5 guests
GZIP: On