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Judicator wrote:

TL;DR: So to me the point of no return is VIII, VII could have been a new begin with all the threads explained and expanded in XIII. Rian Johnson has been able to ruin not only VIII but even VII, the legacy and the future of the franchise too.

You're certainly entitled to your opinion but I feel its a bit dramatic especially for an anonymous forum, considering the awesomeness of R1. If there isn't one thing that the EU taught us was that yes there are some very $#!77y stories that are out there but yet some very good ones too.

I don’t disagree with him. I’m willing to see if 9 continues the bad or can, I’m some way, redeem it.

man, I know I said I would stay away from this thread, but this is just pure gold.

page 105 mass market paperback of Shadows of the Empire by Steve Perry

quote:
"What would be the best way to contact somebody high up in Black Sun?"
Lando stared at her as if she'd just told him she could fly by waving her arms. He shook his heads. "The best way? Don't."
unquote.

I hereby pronounce Mr. Steve Perry as a true prophet. He has foreseen it. Even up to "Don't."

Judicator wrote:

VIII is just garbage, boring, broken beyond fixing, poorly written and executed, the new directìon of the characters seems to be made just for the sake of it without continuity, it just doesn't feel a SW movie.

To you. Doesn't feel like a SW movie to you. The difference is subtle, but kind of important.

RJ even made JJA change the character of Luke: for the end of VII JJA had in mind Rey finding Luke while he was using the force to lift some boulders, RJ decided to change that radically altering what Luke was/is.

...And?

It'd be one thing if Luke had been prominent in VII but he wasn't - he was barely present until the last few seconds. Character continuity is based on what the characters actually do on screen, or what they're alluded to be doing... you can't reasonably expect continuity with what one director intended to do with the character, but didn't.

The prequels have their problems: someone like them, someone not but at least they didn't ruin the franchise. VIII simply has ruined Star Wars, its past and its future, it's just a movie that achieves nothing and still damages the lore, hurts the characters and upsets the fans. RJ has been able to contradict even the events in VII.

Ruins the franchise. Really? The movie is so terrible that it actually degrades the other movies, retroactively?

Doesn't that seem just a little melodramatic?

TL;DR: So to me the point of no return is VIII, VII could have been a new begin with all the threads explained and expanded in XIII. Rian Johnson has been able to ruin not only VIII but even VII, the legacy and the future of the franchise too.

Or maybe a lot melodramatic?

It made 7 make a lot less sense, so yes, retroactively tarnished the series.

7 was actually a "set-up" for this movie (8). 7 sure had some gross absurdities (..like a Death Star that kills a solar system to work, or Force-wielders that can "time-stop" a blast from a blaster), but it was there to pull-together the relevant parties and "prep." for the end (..or rather the end of the Rebel Alliance).

8 is there to represent the end of the Rebel Alliance, show the rich getting richer and the Empire becoming more decadent, show resistance in unlikely places while mentioning many other sources of resistance throughout the Empire. In particular there was the "theme" of: the "Good Guy's" aren't that good, and the old-ways of doing things weren't that great.


(..I'd like to see the start of 9 with Ben commanding fleets and obliterating both Jedi and Sith temples, while struggling with commanders over other insurgent planets within the Empire. For 10-12 I'd like to see the Empire try do deal with a force truly outside the Empire in a bid to conquer it ..in-keeping with the Roman Empire expansion theme rather then just getting to its implosion.)


-what get's me is the "fill" before 7.

6: The Emperor gets the shaft. His second turns and becomes a part-bin. The Rebels are obviously "in-the-WIN".

.. and yet somehow only 1 generation later the Rebels are on the verge of extinction. WTF? Just how stupid do they have to be?

And the evil faction that already controls the whole galaxy can't spare a ship to hyperspace-kamikaze to take down a single Resistance ship, mostly because nobody bothered to ask questions about the script.

strangerguy wrote:

And the evil faction that already controls the whole galaxy can't spare a ship to hyperspace-kamikaze to take down a single Resistance ship, mostly because nobody bothered to ask questions about the script.

Do they actually control the whole galaxy though? They decapitated the New Republic, sure, but in the Disney canon the NR was more like the UN than the Old Republic. I think there's a power vacuum at the moment which the First Order hope to fill, but there's also a whole bunch of systems which are just going to be doing their own thing.

Remember, this is right after Force Awakens- like, days after. The First Order just lost their biggest weapon, along with the millions of troops and enormous amounts of equipment on it. I think that they scrambled pretty much every ship they could spare (including the equivalent of their homeworld, Snoke's ship) to chase down the Resistance.

CScottG wrote:

-what get's me is the "fill" before 7.

6: The Emperor gets the shaft. His second turns and becomes a part-bin. The Rebels are obviously "in-the-WIN".

.. and yet somehow only 1 generation later the Rebels are on the verge of extinction. WTF? Just how stupid do they have to be?

After the end of the war at Jakku, the hardcore Imperials pissed off to the Unknown Regions to regroup and rearm. (Not sure where they got all their funds from- sympathisers living in the New Republic, perhaps? Maybe they knew the PIN number for Palpatine's credit card?) Rebels thought they had won, a bunch of pacifists pushed for disarmament and small government. They didn't want to replicate the Old Republic, because that had already failed once and resulted in the Empire.

The New Republic had a small fleet, and a capital that moved planet every few years (to prevent there being a new Coruscant). The main purpose of the fleet was to defend the capital. Systems had much more autonomy, and presumably dealt with their own defence, like the days before the Clone Wars when the Republic didn't have a standing army. That's why it was so easy to take out the New Republic- wipe out a single (highly defended) solar system, and it was toast.

The flip side is that there's still all the other major systems doing their own thing. Just because the NR is dead, doesn't mean they'll fall in line behind the First Order. Their whole plan depends on the fantasy that people longed for the return of Imperial order and stability, and would willingly sign up once the NR bit it. I think in Episode 9 we're going to see them get a rude awakening.

CScottG wrote:

7 was actually a "set-up" for this movie (8).

I'll have to disagree with you there. Maybe in theory, yes. The reality is that execution of 8 was such that every theme that was started and door that was opened, was either ignored or took a left-turn into crazy-ville.

cphite wrote:

Judicator wrote:

VIII is just garbage, boring, broken beyond fixing, poorly written and executed, the new directìon of the characters seems to be made just for the sake of it without continuity, it just doesn't feel a SW movie.

To you. Doesn't feel like a SW movie to you. The difference is subtle, but kind of important.

RJ even made JJA change the character of Luke: for the end of VII JJA had in mind Rey finding Luke while he was using the force to lift some boulders, RJ decided to change that radically altering what Luke was/is.

...And?

It'd be one thing if Luke had been prominent in VII but he wasn't - he was barely present until the last few seconds. Character continuity is based on what the characters actually do on screen, or what they're alluded to be doing... you can't reasonably expect continuity with what one director intended to do with the character, but didn't.

The prequels have their problems: someone like them, someone not but at least they didn't ruin the franchise. VIII simply has ruined Star Wars, its past and its future, it's just a movie that achieves nothing and still damages the lore, hurts the characters and upsets the fans. RJ has been able to contradict even the events in VII.

Ruins the franchise. Really? The movie is so terrible that it actually degrades the other movies, retroactively?

Doesn't that seem just a little melodramatic?

TL;DR: So to me the point of no return is VIII, VII could have been a new begin with all the threads explained and expanded in XIII. Rian Johnson has been able to ruin not only VIII but even VII, the legacy and the future of the franchise too.

Or maybe a lot melodramatic?

cphite wrote:

To you. Doesn't feel like a SW movie to you. The difference is subtle, but kind of important.

No, you are simply wrong. It's not "to me": the majority of the people who watched this "movie" didn't like it and shares this opinion, take a look to Rotten tomatoes, Metacritic, and the users' reviews on IMDB.
https://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/star_w ... _last_jedi
http://www.metacritic.com/movie/star-wa ... id=8004940
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt2527336/rev ... f_=tt_ql_3

cphite wrote:

...And?

It'd be one thing if Luke had been prominent in VII but he wasn't - he was barely present until the last few seconds. Character continuity is based on what the characters actually do on screen, or what they're alluded to be doing... you can't reasonably expect continuity with what one director intended to do with the character, but didn't.

Seriously? The first episode of the sequel trilogy, VII, revolved around finding Luke: the map to Luke, where's Luke, Snoke searching for Luke, you sure you did you watch the movies?
And you contradict yourself: Luke in the OT on screen made choices that are completely antithetic compared to what he did in XIII. The rest of your post is just your opinion and I have no interest in debating other people's opinions.

cphite wrote:

Ruins the franchise. Really? The movie is so terrible that it actually degrades the other movies, retroactively?

Doesn't that seem just a little melodramatic?

For You and the minority of the people who watched this movie.
For me and for most of the people out there it isn't at all: the character of Luke is damaged and degraded, the same Mark Hamill basically said countless times that Luke wouldn't act that way.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZzO3DCW4LXw
If you care less about these movies than other people do then good for you but you shouldn't judge the others.

Usacomp2k3 wrote:

CScottG wrote:

7 was actually a "set-up" for this movie (8).

I'll have to disagree with you there. Maybe in theory, yes. The reality is that execution of 8 was such that every theme that was started and door that was opened, was either ignored or took a left-turn into crazy-ville.

The big theme of this new trilogy is basically that the fandom matters, and TLJ delivers on that. TFA is about a character who who grew up in the ruins of the OT admiring the legend of SW heroes. She finds out that her heroes are real, and gets the call to action, which is basically a call to join up and fight with/for her heroes. When she finally accepts this, she discovers a power that has been there all along (because she's a fangirl).

TLJ picks up where that left off when the same character has to run out and get another living legend to join the fight. That hero is...disappointing. A big, bad thing happened between trilogies, he's not sure that fighting is worth it, and he's convinced that he does more harm than good. This does pays off when he decides to help out. He arrives on the battlefield, the enemy wastes a ton of time and resources trying to kill this one dude, then they find out that he wasn't there at all. The bad guys were defeated by the performance of a hero (you could also say they lost to a LEGEND of a hero), and little kids are already admiring that and learning to use special abilities because of it.

If I had to wager, now that we've gotten the big legendary performance/sacrifice, the follow-up will likely be about rallying help (rallying the fandom) to finally crush the A-holes and get the big win. Oh, and the bad guy in all of this? He's operating on a twisted/incomplete knowledge of the past, and his big goal is to "let it die." The bad guy is literally trying to erase the past being embraced and protected by the good guy gal.

Disney has to stop this mentality of "hadcore fans don't matter, it's the casual fans that buy the movie tickets.".

1. Why should casual fans choose Star Wars over other films? e.g. Jumanji.
2. If there were huge (yuge?) number of casual fans, why are there shelves and shelves of unsold merchandise?

Also this debate of if you like/hate TLJ you are not a true fan needs to stop. (Although I really think it's them "If you don't like TLJ you are a blah blah blah and a blahing blah!" crowd that started it, but *shrugs*)

PS
Apparently there is someone who made a cut of the film (Even though the dvd/blu ray/video cassette is not out yet), but that's his time and effort. No need to shame "boy! power" when no one would probably (dare to?) complain about "girl power". Someone really should make a "boy" less cut to bring balance to the whatever it is... I would call it the Force, but no, just no.

edit Re: Superjawes:
I think I may be able to find some badly written self inserts from fanfiction dot net

CScottG wrote:

.. and yet somehow only 1 generation later the Rebels are on the verge of extinction. WTF? Just how stupid do they have to be?

To be fair that happened in the Expanded Universe Legends books too because politics. So it's really not a change.

And some people wonder why LOTF and FOTJ doesn't sell...

Darthutos wrote:

And some people wonder why LOTF and FOTJ doesn't sell...

Because you needed to read 15 years' worth of mediocre books in order to get up to speed?

not if you already read them as you grew up.
It's like saying man, I have to watch episode 1, 2, and 3, 4, 5, and 6, and 7 and now 8 to get Star Wars... dang it! Forget that!

Somewhere in my book collection (currently separated from me by the midden pile known as my daughter's room) is a copy of the very first non-Lucas piece of Star Wars. It's the only EU/Legends/whatever I own.

The first non-Lucas Star Wars book that I bought was Alan Dean Foster's Splinter of the Mind's Eye, in 1978.

JustAnEngineer wrote:

The first non-Lucas Star Wars book that I bought was Alan Dean Foster's Splinter of the Mind's Eye, in 1978.

And it was the first (and to which I referred).

Darthutos wrote:

not if you already read them as you grew up.
It's like saying man, I have to watch episode 1, 2, and 3, 4, 5, and 6, and 7 and now 8 to get Star Wars... dang it! Forget that!

Except almost the entire world has seen the original trilogy... And if you haven't, you can get up to speed in a weekend. Good job slogging through the core Extended Universe books that quickly. What would you need to crash course the history? Thrawn trilogy, Dark Empire comic, Jedi Academy trilogy, the whole damn Yuuzhan Vong saga, the second civil war stuff... No doubt I'm missing some crucial ones, because I gave up on that crap years ago. And I'm a nerd who grew up reading and loving the Thrawn books, and the X Wing books.

Edit: Not to mention that a tonne of the older stuff was incompatible with the prequel trilogy, which made it even harder to keep it straight in your head.

okay, fair enough.

My point that I wanted to make when I said "and people wonder why LOTF and FOTJ..." didn't sell. was that If you think about it, there isn't really any difference between Rey and Jaina
And Jacen and Kylo Ren.

First let me just say that when I said LOTF and FOTJ didn't sell well that was the point I wanted to make, if I didn't make that clear, sorry.

Now that we got that out of the way, most complaints people are making about Rey is that she is a Mary Sue, same as Jaina.

And that Kylo Ren = Han and Leia's kid who turns evil and did terrible things... check.

edit: NJO and LOTF indecisive and pretty much useless Luke check.

post NJO, LOTF/FOTJ makes "next generation" moar powah! at the expense of the older generation = check.

So I'm just going out on a limb and say the people who didn't like LOTF/FOTJ won't like/ did not like Episode 8.

edit 2:

On a complete different tangent/topic.
Hermione Corfield, the actress for Tallie Lintra... I hope she doesn't become the next Sean Bean. Record Store Girl in Mission Impossible didn't survive either.

I'm still annoyed by the universe-breaking hyperspace kamikaze ****. That soured it more than any of the other bad character or plot choices. It was pretty though...

Judicator wrote:

cphite wrote:

It'd be one thing if Luke had been prominent in VII but he wasn't - he was barely present until the last few seconds. Character continuity is based on what the characters actually do on screen, or what they're alluded to be doing... you can't reasonably expect continuity with what one director intended to do with the character, but didn't.

Seriously? The first episode of the sequel trilogy, VII, revolved around finding Luke: the map to Luke, where's Luke, Snoke searching for Luke, you sure you did you watch the movies?

Yep, seriously. The episode revolved around finding Luke, not around Luke himself. Luke himself was on screen for less than a minute, and the entire scene consisted of him standing in a robe and looking annoyed that somebody found him.

And you contradict yourself: Luke in the OT on screen made choices that are completely antithetic compared to what he did in XIII.

People change, especially after decades of war and personal loss. There is no reason to expect Luke to be the same person that he was during the OT. The whole reason that episode VII revolved around finding Luke was that Luke went into hiding. If Luke was the same kid from the OT he would have never left in the first place, and there'd be no reason to be looking for him.

The rest of your post is just your opinion and I have no interest in debating other people's opinions.

LOL!

Dude, the only part of your post that wasn't opinion was the part where you linked to sites that compiled other people's opinions. We're discussing the merits of a work of fiction; it's by definition opinion. So maybe turn down the pretense just a bit, eh?

Waco wrote:

I'm still annoyed by the universe-breaking hyperspace kamikaze ****. That soured it more than any of the other bad character or plot choices. It was pretty though...

Whereas I saw it differently.

Assume that any normalspace to hyperspace transition is not instantaneous and that the transition creates a wake of bent normalspace as the transition is made. In my mind, the wake is what did the damage to the First Order fleet and that the effect also means the destruction of the ship still in transition, which is why we've not seen it used as a weapon before.

if It was available in-universe, people would have used that long before now. Kamikaze pilots or even droid or navicomputer. I really disliked that scene too.

The thing about hyperspace in SW, is that according to Han, it ain't like dusting crops, and takes a relatively long times for calculations lest you bring yourself into a supernova and that would end your trip fast... Then we see the hyperspace itself. It's like a hole with whirlpool effect at the edges.

So I read it
1. need calculation
2. It's almost a wormhole generator. (at least not simple place A to place B in a linear journey).

That's canon. (movies only)
Did it seem Holdo had time to precise calculation? At all?

If we are looking at EU, then you need hyperspace lanes, and you can't just decide to go somewhere, you need a established mapped lane, an already built highway, if you will.

Eitherway it doesn't work.

Captain Ned wrote:

Waco wrote:

I'm still annoyed by the universe-breaking hyperspace kamikaze ****. That soured it more than any of the other bad character or plot choices. It was pretty though...

Whereas I saw it differently.

Assume that any normalspace to hyperspace transition is not instantaneous and that the transition creates a wake of bent normalspace as the transition is made. In my mind, the wake is what did the damage to the First Order fleet and that the effect also means the destruction of the ship still in transition, which is why we've not seen it used as a weapon before.

Perhaps the fact that it's been covered in the expanded universe in the past bends my perception a bit - but if this was a possibility (even just in the movie universe), it would have been one of the first uses of hyperspace transport.

We see the dreadnought take damage, and a line right across the thing...
We don't actually see Home One explosion... (We see explosions, yes), we see explosions and a straight line that seemed to not stop...
If the wake theory is true that can only mean one thing.
Admiral Holdo is alive and well on Home One on a date with Leonia Tavira.

Darthutos wrote:

okay, fair enough.

My point that I wanted to make when I said "and people wonder why LOTF and FOTJ..." didn't sell. was that If you think about it, there isn't really any difference between Rey and Jaina
And Jacen and Kylo Ren.

You're right. What we have is pretty much the same as the bad Legends books... with Mara Jade written out, because apparently Disney Star Wars recycles Legends storylines as long as they aren't any good.

Although this raises my earlier point that they have to get rid of the ANH actors soon in any case, and most of the better books would have happened chronologically before the new movies.