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cphite wrote:

Judicator wrote:

Obi Wan and Yoda didn't go to hide.
Obi Wan was watching over Luke from distance because Owen and Beru didn't want him around Luke.

Yoda went to Dagobah to preserve the jedi knowledge while telepathically keeping contact with the jedi who survived the order 66.

The Obi Wan one is plausible, but where are you getting that for Yoda? All of the canon points to him being there out of self-imposed exile. When speaking to Obi Wan it is implied that the only other Jedi is Leia; and this is further implied by the exchange between Obi Wan and Luke:

BEN: Then the Emperor has already won. You were our only hope.
LUKE: Yoda spoke of another.
BEN: The other he spoke of is your twin sister.

Last season of Clone Wars and Rebels it's canon, mostly good, you know, Dave Filoni.

cphite wrote:

In this regard we actually don't know if Luke was the last jedi for sure: many were able to escape and hide in the coming years of the empire. After the Rian Johnson's masterpiece anyway, which retroactively alters the established canon in so different bad ways, everything is possible, sadly.

cphite wrote:

We know that Luke is the only Jedi who's relevant. Even if other Jedi exist, they obviously aren't doing anything of consequence; and neither Yoda nor Obi Wan give any appearance of considering them to be of any use moving forward.

Define relevant. Kanan Jarrus trained Ezra (a jedi training a powerful padawan), the Ghost's crew fought in Battle of Scarif, it can be seen a couple of times in the movie Rogue one.

cphite wrote:

Dude... the entire series is full of flaws, bad writing, and plot holes large enough to fly a Star Destroyer through. Including the original trilogy. You've gotta be willing to accept that if you're going to discuss them :b

This is your opinion, again Last jedi has so many flaws that is firstly a bad movie, because it simply lacks the basics of good film writing and makin, and then a bad Star Wars movie for continuity problems.
Every movie has its flaws, but not every movie is garbage like this one.
Again: check out Mauler's videos then come back here. He bases his critique on facts not biased opinions.
Please check out Mauler's videos.

Hawkwing74 wrote:

Judicator wrote:

Who is really interested in an in depth analysis can take a look at Mauler's "Critique of Star Wars: The Last Jedi" videos, he goes scene by scene and points out most of the flaws in that stinking pile.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vw7pcCj0ORk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_gRC4L6lNoc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yFnMMzqjYGw

I watched some of the first one (wow it's long). My wife and I thoroughly enjoyed his 30 minute rant on "The Last Jedi". I never thought there would be a Star Wars movie I wouldn't watch but that time has come.

I hope this guy makes money off Youtube because...really? You created 5+ hours of content detailing why a movie is terrible?

I agree with him on every point that I saw but wow, that's dedication.

Honestly I like how he is on point on every bit he examines: His first video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9QJRw56cOVw scored 640,345 hits and it was rushed because he was upset, because of its success he decided to go through the movie bit by bit with child safe language taking his time. Yeah it's dedication ad a bit of madness.

Usacomp2k3 wrote:

Hawkwing74 wrote:

Judicator wrote:

Who is really interested in an in depth analysis can take a look at Mauler's "Critique of Star Wars: The Last Jedi" videos, he goes scene by scene and points out most of the flaws in that stinking pile.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vw7pcCj0ORk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_gRC4L6lNoc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yFnMMzqjYGw

I watched some of the first one (wow it's long). My wife and I thoroughly enjoyed his 30 minute rant on "The Last Jedi". I never thought there would be a Star Wars movie I wouldn't watch but that time has come.

I hope this guy makes money off Youtube because...really? You created 5+ hours of content detailing why a movie is terrible?

I agree with him on every point that I saw but wow, that's dedication.

I'm going to take a watch on these videos when I get a chance. I watched a bunch when it first came out (self-admitted echo chamber) but not in awhile.
I follow (and support via Patreon) the Star Wars Explained youtube channel, and I've been put off since Ep8 came out that he still defends that mess.

I hope you'll enjoy them honestly Mauler's reasoning is backed by facts.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4G0TsUJZvfU
Sorry if I keep referencing videos but sometimes the language barrier keeps in the way and it is easier to link a video or an article.

Judicator wrote:

Sorry if I keep referencing videos but sometimes the language barrier keeps in the way and it is easier to link a video or an article.

One simple question: How old were you on May 25, 1977? I happened to be 13 at the time.

Just want to see which era of fan I'm reading, as it seems to be important for opinions of TFA & TLJ.

Captain Ned wrote:

Judicator wrote:

Sorry if I keep referencing videos but sometimes the language barrier keeps in the way and it is easier to link a video or an article.

One simple question: How old were you on May 25, 1977? I happened to be 13 at the time.

Just want to see which era of fan I'm reading, as it seems to be important for opinions of TFA & TLJ.

I was 4 yo, I was born in 1973 and since then to this very year I've been a proud fan.
But honestly age doesn't matter much when it comes to movies that have writing and continuty problems.
Nostalgia isn't the problem when The last jedi contradicts even The force awakens, that is simply bad writing, ignorance, arrogance.

Judicator wrote:

Nostalgia isn't the problem when The last jedi contradicts even The force awakens, that is simply bad writing, ignorance, arrogance.

Whereas I never expected a coherent narrative from the theatrical portion of the canon once TPM hit the screen. Just checking.

Judicator wrote:

Captain Ned wrote:

Judicator wrote:

Sorry if I keep referencing videos but sometimes the language barrier keeps in the way and it is easier to link a video or an article.

One simple question: How old were you on May 25, 1977? I happened to be 13 at the time.

Just want to see which era of fan I'm reading, as it seems to be important for opinions of TFA & TLJ.

I was 4 yo, I was born in 1973 and since then to this very year I've been a proud fan.
But honestly age doesn't matter much when it comes to movies that have writing and continuty problems.
Nostalgia isn't the problem when The last jedi contradicts even The force awakens, that is simply bad writing, ignorance, arrogance.

Nostalgia seems be the #1 red herring defense against the critics. My friend and I lost all interest in SW after Ep8, and we not even huge fans of the franchise, and we all born after Ep6.

I'll say congrats to Disney for managing to kill the unkillable cow?

So I just finished watching that 5 hour marathon (probably not a good idea, it is now 2:30am and I have to get up for work in 3.5 hours). Fantastic writing and scripting. I agree with 98% of what he says and he even touched on stuff that I hadn’t heard before. I appreciate the fairly objective nature when it comes to story writing and just not the subjective perception.

strangerguy wrote:

Nostalgia seems be the #1 red herring defense against the critics. My friend and I lost all interest in SW after Ep8, and we not even huge fans of the franchise, and we all born after Ep6.

I'll say congrats to Disney for managing to kill the unkillable cow?

I'd say it depends on the cow. Mainline SW is turning to those parts of the Semiramis myth that I thought Disney wouldn't have the guts to retell, a princess-ready saga for the Djed set.

strangerguy wrote:

I'll say congrats to Disney for managing to kill the unkillable cow?

ehhhh, I don't think so. There's much more to the SW universe than the Episodic movies. Clone Wars and Rebels did a bang up job with a writer that had phenomenal writing. Rogue One was really, really good too. I am hoping Solo will be good, at least by the (most recent) trailer it looks that way. I've said it before and I'll say it again, House Mouse is just ramping up much like they did with the MCU. If you want to correlate it, we are still in early phase I.

My concern is that they greenlit 3 more movies from Rian even with the fan backlash. I hope that doesn't actual come to fruition.

Usacomp2k3 wrote:

My concern is that they greenlit 3 more movies from Rian even with the fan backlash. I hope that doesn't actual come to fruition.

So I was concerned, but not so much anymore. While he did a crappy job with TLA, his greenlight is on a new trilogy.

Johnson’s trilogy—being produced with Ram Bergman—will be separate from the Skywalker Saga of the prequel, original, and sequel trilogies, and will “introduce new characters from a corner of the galaxy that Star Wars lore has never before explored.”

I'm actually ok with that and not really concerned. (you can't eff up something that isn't established.)

You are correct that he can't continue the massacre of established characters or whiff on all softball setups from the previous movie in a new movie.
However the complete failures of the movie in continuity, styling, scripting, universe-based physics will still exist.

The Last Jedi is #2 among Star Wars films at the box office, and is selling well in home media, yet "fans" are convinced that Disney has killed the franchise.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯

It's also fun to note that TLJ is clearly part 2 of 3, so many judgments against it are reflecting the tension of an unresolved story. Unsurprisingly, you can look back at Star Wars between 1980 and 1983 and see a similar tension over Empire followed by relief with Jedi. Plenty of people were not happy with elements in Empire, including the Vader twist, and it took the final installment to fully contextualize the original trilogy.

superjawes wrote:

The Last Jedi is #2 among Star Wars films at the box office, and is selling well in home media, yet "fans" are convinced that Disney has killed the franchise.

Never heard of inflation eh? Also argument from popularity fallacy. Yes, Disney will make money. Not my money though.

http://www.boxofficemojo.com/alltime/adjusted.htm

IV - 1.6 billion
VII - 992 million
V - 901 million
VI - 863 million
I - 829 million
VIII - 620 million
III - 544 million
II - 490 million

Hawkwing74 wrote:

superjawes wrote:

The Last Jedi is #2 among Star Wars films at the box office, and is selling well in home media, yet "fans" are convinced that Disney has killed the franchise.

Never heard of inflation eh? Also argument from popularity fallacy. Yes, Disney will make money. Not my money though.

http://www.boxofficemojo.com/alltime/adjusted.htm

IV - 1.6 billion
VII - 992 million
V - 901 million
VI - 863 million
I - 829 million
VIII - 620 million
III - 544 million
II - 490 million

Nice strawman attempt.

http://www.boxofficemojo.com/franchises ... arwars.htm

3 SW films in 3 years, and TLJ is better than R1 and respectable against TFA, and it's comparable to Avengers and Black Panther (two of the biggest films in the MCU). Pretty good for a "dead" franchise. Also, if home media is doing as well as the reports are saying, that means that backlash to TLJ is probably limited to a smaller, louder minority.

How is posting stats a strawman? Take an ad hominem - you're a fanboy.

cphite wrote:

Dude... the entire series is full of flaws, bad writing, and plot holes large enough to fly a Star Destroyer through. Including the original trilogy. You've gotta be willing to accept that if you're going to discuss them :b

This is your opinion, again Last jedi has so many flaws that is firstly a bad movie, because it simply lacks the basics of good film writing and makin, and then a bad Star Wars movie for continuity problems.
Every movie has its flaws, but not every movie is garbage like this one.

Yep. It's my opinion, just like what you're saying is your opinion; and just like what Mauler is saying is his opinion. Honestly, while I can understand why people might be disappointed in the films, I really don't get the sheer obsession some people have over trying to convince other people how awful they are.

I enjoyed the movie. Yeah, there are some goofy plot holes and inconsistencies, and some entire subplots that really aren't needed - but it was still fun to watch, and that's frankly all that matters. Heck, in some ways the plot holes are a good thing - they give nerds plenty to talk about later...

Again: check out Mauler's videos then come back here. He bases his critique on facts not biased opinions.

The mere fact that he's ranting for five hours about a work of fiction strongly implies biased opinion. I might get around to watching those someday but - being honest - it's not high on my list of things to do.

Usacomp2k3 wrote:

So I just finished watching that 5 hour marathon (probably not a good idea, it is now 2:30am and I have to get up for work in 3.5 hours). Fantastic writing and scripting. I agree with 98% of what he says and he even touched on stuff that I hadn’t heard before. I appreciate the fairly objective nature when it comes to story writing and just not the subjective perception.

I'm happy you did like them, Mauler did put great effort in them and it shows, the guy made an incredible job.

strangerguy wrote:

Judicator wrote:

Captain Ned wrote:

One simple question: How old were you on May 25, 1977? I happened to be 13 at the time.

Just want to see which era of fan I'm reading, as it seems to be important for opinions of TFA & TLJ.

I was 4 yo, I was born in 1973 and since then to this very year I've been a proud fan.
But honestly age doesn't matter much when it comes to movies that have writing and continuty problems.
Nostalgia isn't the problem when The last jedi contradicts even The force awakens, that is simply bad writing, ignorance, arrogance.

Nostalgia seems be the #1 red herring defense against the critics. My friend and I lost all interest in SW after Ep8, and we not even huge fans of the franchise, and we all born after Ep6.

I'll say congrats to Disney for managing to kill the unkillable cow?

trackerben wrote:

strangerguy wrote:

Nostalgia seems be the #1 red herring defense against the critics. My friend and I lost all interest in SW after Ep8, and we not even huge fans of the franchise, and we all born after Ep6.

I'll say congrats to Disney for managing to kill the unkillable cow?

I'd say it depends on the cow. Mainline SW is turning to those parts of the Semiramis myth that I thought Disney wouldn't have the guts to retell, a princess-ready saga for the Djed set.

Yeah nostaglia and the fear of what is new or different, ohh I would like something new that is actually good.

Disney maybe isn't making much money on the Star Wars franchise including, of course, movies but also the merchandise which is a big slice of the profits. Maybe they are even loosing money.
A guy did the math and while we don't know the exact actual figures I think he is pretty much on point on the subject: Disney need to make ~660M$/year to profit from the franchise and I'm not so sure this is happening.
Another video: The Truth About The Last Jedi's Box Office: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bHskNv5uVe4.

Hawkwing74 wrote:

superjawes wrote:

The Last Jedi is #2 among Star Wars films at the box office, and is selling well in home media, yet "fans" are convinced that Disney has killed the franchise.

Never heard of inflation eh? Also argument from popularity fallacy. Yes, Disney will make money. Not my money though.

http://www.boxofficemojo.com/alltime/adjusted.htm

IV - 1.6 billion
VII - 992 million
V - 901 million
VI - 863 million
I - 829 million
VIII - 620 million
III - 544 million
II - 490 million

Rogue One: A Star Wars Story - $554,854,100
I find it incredible that an anthology movie (R1) made almost as money as a saga one (VIII).
Now the franchise is compromised, the canon broken, great characters humiliated: why should I go to see another Star Wars movie?

If you don't, then you won't get to complain about the next one.

Good grief. I love a good story, and I've always been a fan of star wars, but seriously dude just get over it.

Redocbew wrote:

Good grief. I love a good story, and I've always been a fan of star wars, but seriously dude just get over it.

And if you remain butthurt, might I suggest spending 45 minutes watching these (they link from the end of each one).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NYD3QtyEGGM

cphite wrote:

cphite wrote:

Dude... the entire series is full of flaws, bad writing, and plot holes large enough to fly a Star Destroyer through. Including the original trilogy. You've gotta be willing to accept that if you're going to discuss them :b

This is your opinion, again Last jedi has so many flaws that is firstly a bad movie, because it simply lacks the basics of good film writing and makin, and then a bad Star Wars movie for continuity problems.
Every movie has its flaws, but not every movie is garbage like this one.

Yep. It's my opinion, just like what you're saying is your opinion; and just like what Mauler is saying is his opinion. Honestly, while I can understand why people might be disappointed in the films, I really don't get the sheer obsession some people have over trying to convince other people how awful they are.

Not at all: yours is an opinion, inconsistencies aren't opinions, Maulers' one is an accurate analisys of FACTS with a reasoning that actually makes sense. Sure he makes his own considerations about those facts but he carefully keeps separated the facts from his opinions.
It is clearly stated in the beginning, but apparently you didn't even watch the premise which is in the first 5 minutes.

I can't speak for the others but i'm not trying to convince anyone, I speak my mind and support my statements.
I honestly don't even mind what you do think about this mess of a movie and if you are awful: it was always you who quoted me in the first place trying to argue.
I'm peacefully dicussing with other people and sharing material I think could be interesting.

In the discussion I've had in many forums about this subject there's always a pattern that keeps repeating over and over: there's people who discuss and then someone gets in blindly defending this movie, always, yes you are right there are people who are obsessed indeed.

cphite wrote:

I enjoyed the movie. Yeah, there are some goofy plot holes and inconsistencies, and some entire subplots that really aren't needed - but it was still fun to watch, and that's frankly all that matters. Heck, in some ways the plot holes are a good thing - they give nerds plenty to talk about later...

Ummm, OK!?
Honestly there's nothing bad with it: there's people that can enjoy a movie that unintentionally makes no sense or it's flawed, broken, that contradicts even the previous chapter, the lore, is poorly written: I see no problem with that. There are many movies that are objectively bad but can be enjoyed to some degree, I don't see anything bad about liking bad movies.

cphite wrote:

Again: check out Mauler's videos then come back here. He bases his critique on facts not biased opinions.

The mere fact that he's ranting for five hours about a work of fiction strongly implies biased opinion. I might get around to watching those someday but - being honest - it's not high on my list of things to do.

Ah OK it's a matter of time. You decide the exact amount of time someone should rant over Star Wars: the last jedi: let's call it "The great number of cphite".

Redocbew wrote:

If you don't, then you won't get to complain about the next one.

Good grief. I love a good story, and I've always been a fan of star wars, but seriously dude just get over it.

Why? I honestly am having a great time.
Let's keep enjoying the saga: there are such great moments we can enjoy together.

Edit: with saga I mean the movies until now. I won't go to see Solo and the next ones but I will enjoy your posts.

Captain Ned wrote:

Redocbew wrote:

Good grief. I love a good story, and I've always been a fan of star wars, but seriously dude just get over it.

And if you remain butthurt, might I suggest spending 45 minutes watching these (they link from the end of each one).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NYD3QtyEGGM

Naa, let the past die. Kill it if you have to.

Judicator wrote:

Disney maybe isn't making much money on the Star Wars franchise .....

Dude, put down what ever it is you are smoking. They are changing one of their parks to be nothing but Star Wars. ARE YOU FREAKING KIDDING ME!? I've never read more of an asinine comment ever.

superjawes wrote:

Unsurprisingly, you can look back at Star Wars between 1980 and 1983 and see a similar tension over Empire followed by relief with Jedi. Plenty of people were not happy with elements in Empire, including the Vader twist, and it took the final installment to fully contextualize the original trilogy.

Yeah I read that too, somewhere, with quotes and everything. Lots of people were unhappy and didn't like with ESB and now its the measuring stick for all others. But of course this was very pre-internet so there wasn't much of a sounding board for it.

tanker27 wrote:

Judicator wrote:

Disney maybe isn't making much money on the Star Wars franchise .....

Dude, put down what ever it is you are smoking. They are changing one of their parks to be nothing but Star Wars. ARE YOU FREAKING KIDDING ME!? I've never read more of an asinine comment ever.

Yeah, not sure what he's thinking. Must be that Hollywood accounting.
Although to be pedantic, they aren't changing one of their parks, they are adding a new section to an existing park.

Usacomp2k3 wrote:

Although to be pedantic, they aren't changing one of their parks, they are adding a new section to an existing park.

Partly true and we're both right. Hollywood Studios park used be called MGM Hollywood studios park. They tore down a few things and expanded to make way for the SW stuff which will take up half the park. The grand vision I saw when I was there this past fall was that half the park would be SW and (eventually) the other half would be Marvel with Pixar mixed in (Toy Story Mania ride is hella fun!).

tanker27 wrote:

Usacomp2k3 wrote:

Although to be pedantic, they aren't changing one of their parks, they are adding a new section to an existing park.

Partly true and we're both right. Hollywood Studios park used be called MGM Hollywood studios park. They tore down a few things and expanded to make way for the SW stuff which will take up half the park. The grand vision I saw when I was there this past fall was that half the park would be SW and (eventually) the other half would be Marvel with Pixar mixed in (Toy Story Mania ride is hella fun!).

They're also added Marvel stuff to Epcot with the Guardians of the Galaxy taking over where the Universe of Energy used to be.
And for the record, most of us local still call it MGM.

They are making tons of money, but the movies probably aren't doing as well as Disney expected. I'm *not* saying it was a bad investment, or that the franchise is dying, etc.... but it really should be doing better.

I mean, saying they are comparable to "Black Panther", which is a "big marvel movie" eh, yeah, but that's some 3rd-tier character that wasn't even introduced into the MCU until two years ago. Sure, the historical and current cultural significance of that particular character, yeah, I get it, but uh, I mean, this isn't totally unique either: Ant-man?

It's not even just the MCU, Deadpool?

Iron-man 3, for instance, made more money than the previous two combined, whereas Last Jedi is 40% down from the The Force Awakens.

Guardians 2 did better than Guardians 1, Thor has improved by hundreds of millions each film, Likewise with the Captain America trilogy. The only one that that didn't do better was Avengers 2, but it was still an over a billion worldwide return anyway, comparable to the original.

It's not a good sign that interest doesn't seem to be growing for your franchise only 3 movies in, whereas at this point it seems Fighe can just pick any random minor character in the MCU, possibly without even an introduction, and make a blockbuster.

Judicator wrote:

Captain Ned wrote:

Judicator wrote:

Sorry if I keep referencing videos but sometimes the language barrier keeps in the way and it is easier to link a video or an article.

One simple question: How old were you on May 25, 1977? I happened to be 13 at the time.

Just want to see which era of fan I'm reading, as it seems to be important for opinions of TFA & TLJ.

I was 4 yo, I was born in 1973 and since then to this very year I've been a proud fan.
But honestly age doesn't matter much when it comes to movies that have writing and continuty problems.
Nostalgia isn't the problem when The last jedi contradicts even The force awakens, that is simply bad writing, ignorance, arrogance.

But you guys are on different sides of the Ewok Line (or very close to it)

Judicator wrote:

Not at all: yours is an opinion, inconsistencies aren't opinions, Maulers' one is an accurate analisys of FACTS with a reasoning that actually makes sense. Sure he makes his own considerations about those facts but he carefully keeps separated the facts from his opinions.
It is clearly stated in the beginning, but apparently you didn't even watch the premise which is in the first 5 minutes.

He's giving his opinion about a work of fiction. You're giving your opinion about his opinion.

I can't speak for the others but i'm not trying to convince anyone, I speak my mind and support my statements.
I honestly don't even mind what you do think about this mess of a movie and if you are awful: it was always you who quoted me in the first place trying to argue.
I'm peacefully dicussing with other people and sharing material I think could be interesting.

Which is all anyone else is doing... and yet every time someone hints at having a different opinion than yours, you go off on a rant about how wrong they are.

In the discussion I've had in many forums about this subject there's always a pattern that keeps repeating over and over: there's people who discuss and then someone gets in blindly defending this movie, always, yes you are right there are people who are obsessed indeed.

If saying that I enjoyed it despite the plot holes and other goofiness is "defending" it then yeah, I guess...

cphite wrote:

I enjoyed the movie. Yeah, there are some goofy plot holes and inconsistencies, and some entire subplots that really aren't needed - but it was still fun to watch, and that's frankly all that matters. Heck, in some ways the plot holes are a good thing - they give nerds plenty to talk about later...

Ummm, OK!?
Honestly there's nothing bad with it: there's people that can enjoy a movie that unintentionally makes no sense or it's flawed, broken, that contradicts even the previous chapter, the lore, is poorly written: I see no problem with that. There are many movies that are objectively bad but can be enjoyed to some degree, I don't see anything bad about liking bad movies.

I'm glad we agree on that. Still seems odd that some people get so worked up about it on the new films when the same problems existed in the original films; but I guess we can chalk that up to nostalgia or something...

cphite wrote:

Again: check out Mauler's videos then come back here. He bases his critique on facts not biased opinions.

The mere fact that he's ranting for five hours about a work of fiction strongly implies biased opinion. I might get around to watching those someday but - being honest - it's not high on my list of things to do.

Ah OK it's a matter of time. You decide the exact amount of time someone should rant over Star Wars: the last jedi: let's call it "The great number of cphite".

I honestly couldn't care less how long someone spends ranting about this or any other movie; he can rant for five, ten, or a hundred hours for all I care.

The point was, I have better things to do with my time than sit and listen to it. I enjoy talking about Star Wars and other nerdy films - but not enough to spend hours listening to someone rant about them.

If having that amount of free time to waste makes you feel in any way superior, by all means go with that...