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Judicator
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Re: STAR WARS TIME! - Spoiler Lock Lifted

Sun Jan 21, 2018 3:41 pm

cphite wrote:
Judicator wrote:
cphite wrote:
It'd be one thing if Luke had been prominent in VII but he wasn't - he was barely present until the last few seconds. Character continuity is based on what the characters actually do on screen, or what they're alluded to be doing... you can't reasonably expect continuity with what one director intended to do with the character, but didn't.


Seriously? The first episode of the sequel trilogy, VII, revolved around finding Luke: the map to Luke, where's Luke, Snoke searching for Luke, you sure you did you watch the movies?


Yep, seriously. The episode revolved around finding Luke, not around Luke himself. Luke himself was on screen for less than a minute, and the entire scene consisted of him standing in a robe and looking annoyed that somebody found him.

And you contradict yourself: Luke in the OT on screen made choices that are completely antithetic compared to what he did in XIII.


People change, especially after decades of war and personal loss. There is no reason to expect Luke to be the same person that he was during the OT. The whole reason that episode VII revolved around finding Luke was that Luke went into hiding. If Luke was the same kid from the OT he would have never left in the first place, and there'd be no reason to be looking for him.

The rest of your post is just your opinion and I have no interest in debating other people's opinions.


LOL!

Dude, the only part of your post that wasn't opinion was the part where you linked to sites that compiled other people's opinions. We're discussing the merits of a work of fiction; it's by definition opinion. So maybe turn down the pretense just a bit, eh?


cphite wrote:
Yep, seriously. The episode revolved around finding Luke, not around Luke himself. Luke himself was on screen for less than a minute, and the entire scene consisted of him standing in a robe and looking annoyed that somebody found him.

Sorry, no. Again you contradict yourself: you wrote "if Luke had been prominent in VII", the screen time doesn't necessarily imply he wasn't. Luke was prominent because he was what made the plot go on (MacGuffin, as stated by JJA), as I said, the entire, entire movie revolved around Luke. He is in the crawl text, Kylo kills everyone and gets and Poe tortures him to know where he is, the same for Rey, Snoke tells Kylo to find him, Maz had his lightsaber, R2 had part of the map and wakes up, yeah he just isn't "prominent" at all.
Screen time just isn't necessarily a metric for how "prominent" a character is.
Usually protagonist, deuteragonist have more screen time of secondary characters but how "prominent" a character is a totally different thing. And the idea that he was annoyed it's just your opinion.

cphite wrote:
People change, especially after decades of war and personal loss. There is no reason to expect Luke to be the same person that he was during the OT. The whole reason that episode VII revolved around finding Luke was that Luke went into hiding. If Luke was the same kid from the OT he would have never left in the first place, and there'd be no reason to be looking for him.

People change, thanks, now I remember that little thing of life.
Fans, the majority, like it or not, disagree *HOW* Luke changed not that he changed.The very same Mark Hamill many times stated publicly his opinion on how bad those choices were, because there was no continuity.
Now don't get mad at me but between Mark Hamill and you I trust Mark just a little more (not counting the majority of fans that share the same reasoning).

cphite wrote:
LOL!

Dude, the only part of your post that wasn't opinion was the part where you linked to sites that compiled other people's opinions. We're discussing the merits of a work of fiction; it's by definition opinion. So maybe turn down the pretense just a bit, eh?

Wrong, again. I posted facts: revievs, Luke "prominent in VII" as a MacGuffin, and another link to a YT video where Mark Hamill speaks his mind about how bad the choices RJ made for Luke, so, yeah, whatever, keep LOL!-ing.
Last edited by Judicator on Sun Jan 21, 2018 3:50 pm, edited 2 times in total.
 
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Re: STAR WARS TIME! - Spoiler Lock Lifted

Sun Jan 21, 2018 3:47 pm

Captain Ned wrote:
Waco wrote:
I'm still annoyed by the universe-breaking hyperspace kamikaze ****. That soured it more than any of the other bad character or plot choices. It was pretty though...
Whereas I saw it differently.

Assume that any normalspace to hyperspace transition is not instantaneous and that the transition creates a wake of bent normalspace as the transition is made. In my mind, the wake is what did the damage to the First Order fleet and that the effect also means the destruction of the ship still in transition, which is why we've not seen it used as a weapon before.



..under any reasonable context this would have already been weaponized. (..it's just so OBVIOUS in use and effect, even if the premised underlying cause is debatable.)

I mean, if you can build a death star (..even without going to the star-eating variety), you can surely build a weapon that's much smaller to achieve that effect; and it would have been used long before (..not long after traveling in hyperspace was discovered) - which would have changed the entire ship-building "industry" and how space-warfare occurred.


-like Waco, I found that scene visually attractive, expected, and utterly disturbing (..for breaking the entire space-combat system). (..which was unlike the bomber scene that I thought was entirely plausible, despite its protracted though necessary scene.)
 
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Re: STAR WARS TIME! - Spoiler Lock Lifted

Sun Jan 21, 2018 4:02 pm

Darthutos wrote:
We see the dreadnought take damage, and a line right across the thing...
We don't actually see Home One explosion... (We see explosions, yes), we see explosions and a straight line that seemed to not stop...
If the wake theory is true that can only mean one thing.
Admiral Holdo is alive and well on Home One on a date with Leonia Tavira.

Again, this breaks the entire universe. If it were so easy to blow things up (regardless of kamikaze or not) it would be done all the time by drones with a hyperdrive attached...
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Re: STAR WARS TIME! - Spoiler Lock Lifted

Sun Jan 21, 2018 8:25 pm

Captain Ned wrote:
Assume that any normalspace to hyperspace transition is not instantaneous and that the transition creates a wake of bent normalspace as the transition is made. In my mind, the wake is what did the damage to the First Order fleet and that the effect also means the destruction of the ship still in transition, which is why we've not seen it used as a weapon before.

Maybe this is over-simplifying a bit, but sort of like a kinetic energy weapon? Not too put too fine a point on it...ah, hell, we're down the rabbit hole already. It seems like some smart Imperial weapons technician would have thought of making a missile (possibly out of a super-dense material) with an FTL drive mounted to it.

But the fact of the matter is, the story writers needed a way to slow down the pursuing First Order fleet, and FTL Kamikaze is what they chose.

EDIT: Waco beat me to the punch - didn't see his post before I replied.
 
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Re: STAR WARS TIME! - Spoiler Lock Lifted

Sun Jan 21, 2018 8:53 pm

Was there a reason why Holdo couldn't have just rammed the dreadnought via sublight?
I mean, Home One is smaller and probably more maneuverable than that big dreadnought...
Or are the film telling us that the chase is inside the hyperspace? If so, you have to drop out of hyperspace, calculate, then ram it via hyperspace at a ship still in hyperspace... What a mess.
edit: Also, the timing (chronology of the films don't jive)...
Starkiller base is destroyed utterly.... The entire planet went kaboom a la Alderaan. There was no shuttle/TIE fighters to evacuate Kylo and Hux. There was a specific scene where Darth Vader escaped the destruction of the DEATH STAR in an out of control TIE fighter. It's completely missing in Episode 7. I guess you can argue the planet didn't go completely kaboom, but why not just fix the base and fire again? And the FO reigns... I guess it did reign... For 0.00001 seconds?

Edit: Most important, and I'm surprised no one brought it up, why the heck did Leia send her SOS for allies toward the outer rim planets? Isn't it where the FO came from? I don't know, maybe it's full of planets controlled by die hard old school Empire left overs? If she wanted anyone to help, turn the antenna toward the core worlds?
 
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Re: STAR WARS TIME! - Spoiler Lock Lifted

Sun Jan 21, 2018 10:00 pm

I enjoyed Episode VIII immensely more than Episode VII, even though the latter was flawed. I didn't find the direction Luke was taken in as satisfying as the possibility of him flexing his Jedi muscles, but it was a logical extension of a story line where he hid instead of opposing the First Order.

VII was pure shiny stupid, which we would expect from the "damn the plot, make it look cool" JJ Abrams. I sort of enjoyed it during my first watch but left the theater with zero desire to ever view it again. VIII was more interesting, if saddled with a tortuously slow B and C plots.

I agree that the hyperjump kamikaze broke the universe, as there is no reason to build capital ships/death stars/planetary bases if a freighter full of rocks can knock any of them out with a single jump command*. We can consider combat fully broken in the universe, as Episode VII also contained an old man manually jumping out of hyperspace between a planetary shield and the surface in an outdated freighter.

*This would be an interesting sci-fi premise, where FTL drives are treated like today's hydrogen bombs. In event of a war, you'd have to disperse your forces with fighters, missile, and agile microcarriers.
 
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Re: STAR WARS TIME! - Spoiler Lock Lifted

Sun Jan 21, 2018 10:20 pm

ramming is cheap.

It's Star Wars, not Ram wars for crying out loud.
 
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Re: STAR WARS TIME! - Spoiler Lock Lifted

Mon Jan 22, 2018 8:31 am

Darthutos wrote:
ramming is cheap.

It's Star Wars, not Ram wars for crying out loud.

Which is why they never should have had that scene.
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Re: STAR WARS TIME! - Spoiler Lock Lifted

Mon Jan 22, 2018 10:21 am

Lucky Jack Aubrey wrote:
Captain Ned wrote:
Assume that any normalspace to hyperspace transition is not instantaneous and that the transition creates a wake of bent normalspace as the transition is made. In my mind, the wake is what did the damage to the First Order fleet and that the effect also means the destruction of the ship still in transition, which is why we've not seen it used as a weapon before.

Maybe this is over-simplifying a bit, but sort of like a kinetic energy weapon? Not too put too fine a point on it...ah, hell, we're down the rabbit hole already. It seems like some smart Imperial weapons technician would have thought of making a missile (possibly out of a super-dense material) with an FTL drive mounted to it.

But the fact of the matter is, the story writers needed a way to slow down the pursuing First Order fleet, and FTL Kamikaze is what they chose.

EDIT: Waco beat me to the punch - didn't see his post before I replied.

Hysperspace travel does not create a destructive wake everywhere along its path because--despite the emptiness of space--damage from common travel would be a rampant, galaxy-wide problem. It's not just military ships out there. You'll have many, many more dedicated to space freight, all making hyperspace jumps to fuel the galactic economy (and the militaries, for that matter). If hyperspace travel was destructive all along these paths, you would need strict control on who can travel when and where to keep space travel safe. So because galactic travel has minimal regulation, we can assume the danger zone for a hyperspace jump is limited (I am thinking no more than a few planetary diameters).

Don't discount time, either. Even with the impulsive kamikaze attack, the Resistance ship took at least a minute (maybe more) to maneuver into position and spin up the drives. It was clear that the First Order *could* have destroyed the ship, but they didn't because hubris (which is more important to the plot than scifi physics).

Now let's go back to your FTL missile. It could only cause damage in a relatively close range (no long-range ballistic attacks possible), and it would be vulnerable for a time since it needs to get clear of the launching vessel, support fighters have to get out of the way, AND the missile has to spin-up the hyperspace drive. Modern warships don't like having missiles shot at them, so I can guarantee that any SW alternative will also have countermeasures for an attack like this.

PS: You should also consider that the damage of a weapon like this would have additional limits. More massive projectiles probably would cause more damage, but they would need bigger, more expensive FTL drives to launch. If size (physical space) causes more damage, then it's harder to mask the attack, and the target can more easily dispatch the projectile.

PPS: It's really strange that THIS is what people take issue with in a series that has moon-sized planet destroyers (plus a super-sized version) and space wizards.
On second thought, let's not go to TechReport. Tis a silly place.
 
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Re: STAR WARS TIME! - Spoiler Lock Lifted

Mon Jan 22, 2018 10:50 am

superjawes wrote:
PPS: It's really strange that THIS is what people take issue with in a series that has moon-sized planet destroyers (plus a super-sized version) and space wizards.

Is it? The other things at least fit with the view of the "rules" in Star Wars. Sure, they're improbable, but anything like a hyperspace missile destroys any sense of coherency within the universe. There's no problem with ships jumping into hyperspace in extremely close proximity anywhere else in the series.

Yes, I'm probably overthinking a Disney movie.
Yes, I'm still pissed about it. :P
Last edited by Waco on Mon Jan 22, 2018 10:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: STAR WARS TIME! - Spoiler Lock Lifted

Mon Jan 22, 2018 10:51 am

superjawes wrote:
Hysperspace travel does not create a destructive wake everywhere along its path because--despite the emptiness of space--damage from common travel would be a rampant, galaxy-wide problem. It's not just military ships out there. You'll have many, many more dedicated to space freight, all making hyperspace jumps to fuel the galactic economy (and the militaries, for that matter). If hyperspace travel was destructive all along these paths, you would need strict control on who can travel when and where to keep space travel safe. So because galactic travel has minimal regulation, we can assume the danger zone for a hyperspace jump is limited (I am thinking no more than a few planetary diameters).

Agreed in principle. However, in and of itself, that doesn't make the weapon unworkable.

superjawes wrote:
Now let's go back to your FTL missile. It could only cause damage in a relatively close range (no long-range ballistic attacks possible), and it would be vulnerable for a time since it needs to get clear of the launching vessel, support fighters have to get out of the way, AND the missile has to spin-up the hyperspace drive. Modern warships don't like having missiles shot at them, so I can guarantee that any SW alternative will also have countermeasures for an attack like this.

I think you may be over-emphasizing this part. Fire-and-forget is a technology we have now, but of course a delivery platform is needed. One example? A detachable hyperdrive gets the missile into range. We've seen such a concept (a detachable hyperdrive) in Attack of The Clones. The missile itself, being of a stealthy design, detaches and maneuvers until it acquires its target (again, stealth and terminal acquisition/guidance are things we have now). Heck, the detachable hyperdrive could even potentially function as a decoy, if not a second weapon. And maybe the hyperdrive wouldn't even have to be limited to carrying just one missile.

If the small size of the missile is a limitation, add a warhead.

Would technical problems have to be overcome? Sure. Might the design itself be expensive? Quite possibly. How much is it worth to score a kill shot on an enemy capital ship - without risking your own troops, no less?

Might the rebels not have access to such a weapon? There you might have your strongest argument.

In any case, with such a weapon, you'd lose the heroism and self-sacrifice involved with turning FTL Kamikaze.
 
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Re: STAR WARS TIME! - Spoiler Lock Lifted

Mon Jan 22, 2018 11:27 am

A FTL missile would make the Death Star obsolete - and "canon" examples exist that make the DS look silly: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Sun_Crusher
 
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Re: STAR WARS TIME! - Spoiler Lock Lifted

Mon Jan 22, 2018 11:35 am

Darthutos wrote:
The thing about hyperspace in SW, is that according to Han, it ain't like dusting crops, and takes a relatively long times for calculations lest you bring yourself into a supernova and that would end your trip fast... Then we see the hyperspace itself. It's like a hole with whirlpool effect at the edges.

So I read it
1. need calculation
2. It's almost a wormhole generator. (at least not simple place A to place B in a linear journey).

That's canon. (movies only)
Did it seem Holdo had time to precise calculation? At all?


You need a precise calculation to avoid ending up someplace really bad; but if the whole point of your "trip" is to slam into a ship that's within visual range, then it's reasonable that you just point in the direction of your target and go. It doesn't matter where your trip ends up if you're vaporized at the beginning.

If we are looking at EU, then you need hyperspace lanes, and you can't just decide to go somewhere, you need a established mapped lane, an already built highway, if you will.

Eitherway it doesn't work.


Well, again, that's based on the assumption that the folks on the ship entering hyperspace want to arrive intact at their destination. Her plan was simply to use her ship as a really high energy battering ram. There is nothing in any canon that suggests you cannot just engage the engines in some random direction (essentially what she did) without a plan; just that doing so is really dangerous. She didn't care about the danger part because the whole point was to go kamikaze.

The real suspension of disbelief is that, if this works, it wasn't used all the time. Even shuttles have hyper-drive; it wouldn't be any more difficult to build missiles that did the same thing. Screw building anything like the Death Star - you could launch a barrage of unmanned vehicles via hyperspace at any target from pretty much anywhere in the galaxy.
 
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Re: STAR WARS TIME! - Spoiler Lock Lifted

Mon Jan 22, 2018 11:42 am

A Science Fiction is where technology is there that we may not have yet, but it is possible in the future. Where if you take away the technology, the story won't work.
Fantasy is where there are rules that we know for a fact that cannot be true no matter how far it is in the future or past. But said rules need to be concrete within that milieu.
Both of them need to follow their own rules. You can't have Fellow Ship of the Rings go into Moria, spend many hardship and then finally have Frodo find a transporter and say: Energize!
Your explanation: Well you see, the technology was always there, Frodo just needed to find the transporter?
Or have the revelation that Qi'Ra is actually Daenerys travelling to the SW via a tunnel in the broken Wall... oh wait....

---

I'll probably check out Solo a Star Wars story just to watch the Khaleesi. I feel there is no shame in admitting it.
 
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Re: STAR WARS TIME! - Spoiler Lock Lifted

Mon Jan 22, 2018 11:43 am

cegras wrote:
A FTL missile would make the Death Star obsolete - and "canon" examples exist that make the DS look silly: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Sun_Crusher

Not canon any longer.

Darthutos wrote:
I'll probably check out Solo a Star Wars story just to watch the Khaleesi. I feel there is no shame in admitting it.

No shame at all! I am hoping Solo is decent. Rogue One was great so there's still hope.
 
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Re: STAR WARS TIME! - Spoiler Lock Lifted

Mon Jan 22, 2018 11:45 am

cegras wrote:
A FTL missile would make the Death Star obsolete - and "canon" examples exist that make the DS look silly: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Sun_Crusher


lol

Go Kyp Go!
 
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Re: STAR WARS TIME! - Spoiler Lock Lifted

Mon Jan 22, 2018 11:47 am

Waco wrote:
Is it? The other things at least fit with the view of the "rules" in Star Wars. Sure, they're improbable, but anything like a hyperspace missile destroys any sense of coherency within the universe. There's no problem with ships jumping into hyperspace in extremely close proximity anywhere else in the series.
But do any of those ships point themselves right at capital ships before jumping? Maybe there is a reason for that?

Lucky Jack Aubrey wrote:
superjawes wrote:
[Limits on Hyperspace Damage]
Agreed in principle. However, in and of itself, that doesn't make the weapon unworkable.
Right, it just makes it less effective, which is why the First Order was not expecting it, and why this is not common.

Lucky Jack Aubrey wrote:
superjawes wrote:
Now let's go back to your FTL missile. It could only cause damage in a relatively close range (no long-range ballistic attacks possible), and it would be vulnerable for a time since it needs to get clear of the launching vessel, support fighters have to get out of the way, AND the missile has to spin-up the hyperspace drive. Modern warships don't like having missiles shot at them, so I can guarantee that any SW alternative will also have countermeasures for an attack like this.
I think you may be over-emphasizing this part. Fire-and-forget is a technology we have now, but of course a delivery platform is needed. One example? A detachable hyperdrive gets the missile into range. We've seen such a concept (a detachable hyperdrive) in Attack of The Clones. The missile itself, being of a stealthy design, detaches and maneuvers until it acquires its target (again, stealth and terminal acquisition/guidance are things we have now). Heck, the detachable hyperdrive could even potentially function as a decoy, if not a second weapon. And maybe the hyperdrive wouldn't even have to be limited to carrying just one missile.

If the small size of the missile is a limitation, add a warhead.

Would technical problems have to be overcome? Sure. Might the design itself be expensive? Quite possibly. How much is it worth to score a kill shot on an enemy capital ship - without risking your own troops, no less?

Might the rebels not have access to such a weapon? There you might have your strongest argument.

In any case, with such a weapon, you'd lose the heroism and self-sacrifice involved with turning FTL Kamikaze.
Y'know, I'm not trying to disprove the possibility of FTL missiles. I'm only trying to explain why--if they do exist in SW--they are very rare, and why the First Order were not expecting such an attack. Everything you suggested to making the FTL missile more effective adds cost and complexity. By contrast, a capital ship could just blast a target into space dust using lasers. For these missiles to be common and effective, they need to significantly outperform those lasers.

Darthutos wrote:
A Science Fiction is where technology is there that we may not have yet, but it is possible in the future. Where if you take away the technology, the story won't work.
Star Wars is better classified as science fantasy. Always has been. Star Trek is a truer science fiction franchise.
On second thought, let's not go to TechReport. Tis a silly place.
 
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Re: STAR WARS TIME! - Spoiler Lock Lifted

Mon Jan 22, 2018 11:50 am

superjawes wrote:
Star Wars is better classified as science fantasy. Always has been. Star Trek is a truer science fiction franchise.
Fine job ignoring his point that fantasies also have to have rules.

All the drama by we, the nerds, does not matter to Disney. The movie is already #9 on the world charts:

http://www.boxofficemojo.com/alltime/world/
 
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Re: STAR WARS TIME! - Spoiler Lock Lifted

Mon Jan 22, 2018 11:53 am

Judicator wrote:

Dude, the only part of your post that wasn't opinion was the part where you linked to sites that compiled other people's opinions. We're discussing the merits of a work of fiction; it's by definition opinion. So maybe turn down the pretense just a bit, eh?

Wrong, again. I posted facts: revievs, Luke "prominent in VII" as a MacGuffin, and another link to a YT video where Mark Hamill speaks his mind about how bad the choices RJ made for Luke, so, yeah, whatever, keep LOL!-ing.


Reviews are opinions. And even Mark Hamill was stating his opinion. Granted, his opinion carries a lot of weight, but it's still an opinion.

I know this may sound crazy to you, but people are allowed to interpret stories differently than the actors, or the directors, or even the writers. Mark Hamill didn't like where they took the character; and that's fine - he's entitled to that opinion. The writers and the director made the call; because in their opinion it made sense. Some fans liked it; others didn't like it. It's all opinion.
 
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Re: STAR WARS TIME! - Spoiler Lock Lifted

Mon Jan 22, 2018 12:05 pm

Hawkwing74 wrote:
Fine job ignoring his point that fantasies also have to have rules.
This assumes that SW has broken its own rules. It hasn't. At most, there is some disagreement around vaguely defined aspects of the science/magic.

Hawkwing74 wrote:
All the drama by we, the nerds, does not matter to Disney. The movie is already #9 on the world charts:

http://www.boxofficemojo.com/alltime/world/
Good! There are plenty of nerds who love this movie, and a success at the box office means more Star Wars in the future.
On second thought, let's not go to TechReport. Tis a silly place.
 
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Re: STAR WARS TIME! - Spoiler Lock Lifted

Mon Jan 22, 2018 12:10 pm

superjawes wrote:
Y'know, I'm not trying to disprove the possibility of FTL missiles. I'm only trying to explain why--if they do exist in SW--they are very rare, and why the First Order were not expecting such an attack.


The thing is, the FO commander seemed to have figured out really quickly what she was up to once the ship was facing the fleet. So it was clearly something that was at least in the realm of possibility; which implies that it'd been done or at least thought about before.

Everything you suggested to making the FTL missile more effective adds cost and complexity. By contrast, a capital ship could just blast a target into space dust using lasers. For these missiles to be common and effective, they need to significantly outperform those lasers.


But would it be that costly or complex? Even small shuttle craft have hyperdrive, so it can't be that expensive or complicated. And given that AI is extremely common - they have sentient mop buckets in this universe - it shouldn't be that expensive to create a system that can do the calculations needed to calculate a jump and hit a target.

Heck, imagine just putting a hyper-drive and a guidance system on a couple of large asteroids.
 
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Re: STAR WARS TIME! - Spoiler Lock Lifted

Mon Jan 22, 2018 12:40 pm

cphite wrote:
The thing is, the FO commander seemed to have figured out really quickly what she was up to once the ship was facing the fleet. So it was clearly something that was at least in the realm of possibility; which implies that it'd been done or at least thought about before .

They might have expected a simple ramming. Which IMHO Should have been what the scene should have ended with (except with Ackbar in memory of Rattis (sp?) ) instead of a hyperspace kamikaze which was totally non-canon.
 
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Re: STAR WARS TIME! - Spoiler Lock Lifted

Mon Jan 22, 2018 12:44 pm

cphite wrote:
superjawes wrote:
Y'know, I'm not trying to disprove the possibility of FTL missiles. I'm only trying to explain why--if they do exist in SW--they are very rare, and why the First Order were not expecting such an attack.
The thing is, the FO commander seemed to have figured out really quickly what she was up to once the ship was facing the fleet. So it was clearly something that was at least in the realm of possibility; which implies that it'd been done or at least thought about before.
Again, still very rare, though. The FO weren't even reacting to the Resistance ship at first, probably because these exact circumstances were rare. How often are capital ship crews reduced to a single person? And how often is that single person protecting the escape of the remaining personnel from complete destruction?

Everything you suggested to making the FTL missile more effective adds cost and complexity. By contrast, a capital ship could just blast a target into space dust using lasers. For these missiles to be common and effective, they need to significantly outperform those lasers.
But would it be that costly or complex? Even small shuttle craft have hyperdrive, so it can't be that expensive or complicated. And given that AI is extremely common - they have sentient mop buckets in this universe - it shouldn't be that expensive to create a system that can do the calculations needed to calculate a jump and hit a target.

Heck, imagine just putting a hyper-drive and a guidance system on a couple of large asteroids.
Two things. 1) Are the engines on a shuttle going to be the same as the ones on a capital ship? 2) How much damage did a full-size resistance vessel actually do?

Yes, Snoke's ship was in really bad shape...but it wasn't completely smashed into space dust. If the damage of such an attach is mass dependent, then you NEED something very large just to cripple larger vessels (and you need to be accurate on smaller ones. A kamikaze shuttle might do some damage, but probably not enough to justify the spent cost. While a larger mass might do more, it would have to be cost-effective to make it common, and you still have to maneuver around your target's countermeasures, which will work better on larger targets.

And again, that's the main point here. The introduction of hyperspace-based attacks is interesting, and we are working possibilities, but there are plenty of additional questions about their effectiveness.
On second thought, let's not go to TechReport. Tis a silly place.
 
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Re: STAR WARS TIME! - Spoiler Lock Lifted

Mon Jan 22, 2018 12:48 pm

Usacomp2k3 wrote:
They might have expected a simple ramming. Which IMHO Should have been what the scene should have ended with (except with Ackbar in memory of Rattis (sp?) ) instead of a hyperspace kamikaze which was totally non-canon.
Yes. A simple ramming by a slow-moving ship would totally work against a larger, heavily armed and shielded capital ship that has been picking off the Resistance fleet all day with conventional lasers.

And just because it hasn't been done before doesn't mean that it isn't possible. I don't remember this kind of discussion happening when Han Solo dropped out of hyperspace inside the shield of Starkiller Base...
On second thought, let's not go to TechReport. Tis a silly place.
 
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Re: STAR WARS TIME! - Spoiler Lock Lifted

Mon Jan 22, 2018 1:07 pm

superjawes wrote:
And just because it hasn't been done before doesn't mean that it isn't possible. I don't remember this kind of discussion happening when Han Solo dropped out of hyperspace inside the shield of Starkiller Base...

Neither of the hyperspace “trickeration” from TFA sat well with me either. Launching from within another ship or coming in within the shields were both dumb. For me personally, I was just willing to overlook it because the rest of th movie was ok, other than three complete lack of originality and blatant regurgitation of ANH.
 
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Re: STAR WARS TIME! - Spoiler Lock Lifted

Mon Jan 22, 2018 1:08 pm

What should have happened was a huge ball of fire which may or may not have destroyed the shield around the starkiller base temporarily or permanently while the Falcon would have fell apart.
Or are we supposed to ignore physics?
What about "How can they be jamming us if they don't know we are here? Pull UP! Pull UP!"
Why did the Rebellion needed to send a strike team down to Endor to destroy the shield generator? Just calculate and hyperspace inside the shield? The thing's superstructure isn't finished.

Also, There's an energy shield surrounding ... the planet, it is strong enough to deter all bombardment." "Ready your troops for ground assault." Um, why? Just hyperspace a couple of ships back while majority blockade, then hyperspace back inside the Hoth shield, commence orbital bombardment inside the shield.
And that's just for arguments of you need certain distance to hyperspace... If no distance needed, then just hyperspace inside the shield your entire fleet!

Edit:
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Re: STAR WARS TIME! - Spoiler Lock Lifted

Mon Jan 22, 2018 2:24 pm

Darthutos wrote:
What should have happened was a huge ball of fire which may or may not have destroyed the shield around the starkiller base temporarily or permanently while the Falcon would have fell apart.
Or are we supposed to ignore physics?
What about "How can they be jamming us if they don't know we are here? Pull UP! Pull UP!"
Why did the Rebellion needed to send a strike team down to Endor to destroy the shield generator? Just calculate and hyperspace inside the shield? The thing's superstructure isn't finished.

Also, There's an energy shield surrounding ... the planet, it is strong enough to deter all bombardment." "Ready your troops for ground assault." Um, why? Just hyperspace a couple of ships back while majority blockade, then hyperspace back inside the Hoth shield, commence orbital bombardment inside the shield.
And that's just for arguments of you need certain distance to hyperspace... If no distance needed, then just hyperspace inside the shield your entire fleet!

That, and you could have just tossed one ship into the Death Star (either one of them) to destroy it...
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Re: STAR WARS TIME! - Spoiler Lock Lifted

Mon Jan 22, 2018 2:34 pm

Darthutos wrote:
What should have happened was a huge ball of fire which may or may not have destroyed the shield around the starkiller base temporarily or permanently while the Falcon would have fell apart.
Or are we supposed to ignore physics?


We have ships flying far faster than light, space wizards who can move objects without touching them and manifest themselves across the galaxy, and swords made of light that stop three feet from their hilt and clash together as though they were solid...

So, yeah... we can ignore a lot of physics :D
 
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Re: STAR WARS TIME! - Spoiler Lock Lifted

Mon Jan 22, 2018 2:41 pm

cphite wrote:
Darthutos wrote:
What should have happened was a huge ball of fire which may or may not have destroyed the shield around the starkiller base temporarily or permanently while the Falcon would have fell apart.
Or are we supposed to ignore physics?


We have ships flying far faster than light, space wizards who can move objects without touching them and manifest themselves across the galaxy, and swords made of light that stop three feet from their hilt and clash together as though they were solid...

So, yeah... we can ignore a lot of physics :D

Sure, but you at least have to have some stable base of "in universe" science/magic that works together. Changing the rules every time it becomes convenient for the plot is bad storytelling at best and it makes the universe unbelievable and removes all possible tension in a scene.
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Re: STAR WARS TIME! - Spoiler Lock Lifted

Mon Jan 22, 2018 3:44 pm

Waco wrote:
Sure, but you at least have to have some stable base of "in universe" science/magic that works together. Changing the rules every time it becomes convenient for the plot is bad storytelling at best and it makes the universe unbelievable and removes all possible tension in a scene.
Debateable, but the hyperspace attack does not break any rules, and you can read about how right here in this thread! (Short version, this was a crazy and stupid idea that only worked because the good guys were desperate and out of options.)

And I really don't see how that removed tension? The Resistance fleet was limping, mostly destroyed, and then an admiral sacrificed their last capital ship to save a handful of people. Thematically, it's also in-line with much of the Resistance part of the story, where characters are constantly evaluating the cost of their decisions.
On second thought, let's not go to TechReport. Tis a silly place.

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