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Waco
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Re: STAR WARS TIME! - Spoiler Lock Lifted

Mon Jan 22, 2018 4:18 pm

superjawes wrote:
Debateable, but the hyperspace attack does not break any rules, and you can read about how right here in this thread! (Short version, this was a crazy and stupid idea that only worked because the good guys were desperate and out of options.)

Oh, so they weren't desperate during the other pivotal moments in the series when a quick hyperspace jump from one ship could have saved the entire fleet? Yeah, no. The whole jumping through shields thing ruins things as well.
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Re: STAR WARS TIME! - Spoiler Lock Lifted

Mon Jan 22, 2018 4:35 pm

Darthutos wrote:
ramming is cheap.

It's Star Wars, not Ram wars for crying out loud.


And yet so many people have complained about war engines powered by stars...
 
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Re: STAR WARS TIME! - Spoiler Lock Lifted

Mon Jan 22, 2018 4:38 pm

Shobai wrote:

And yet so many people have complained about war engines powered by stars...


What?

war engines powered by stars...? Star Trek? Babylon 5? Alastair Reynolds?
 
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Re: STAR WARS TIME! - Spoiler Lock Lifted

Mon Jan 22, 2018 5:16 pm

Waco wrote:
superjawes wrote:
Debateable, but the hyperspace attack does not break any rules, and you can read about how right here in this thread! (Short version, this was a crazy and stupid idea that only worked because the good guys were desperate and out of options.)

Oh, so they weren't desperate during the other pivotal moments in the series when a quick hyperspace jump from one ship could have saved the entire fleet? Yeah, no. The whole jumping through shields thing ruins things as well.


Meh. Just assume that it doesn't normally work, but they had it planned all along and did some special hand-wavy technical thing before jumping to that location in space to make it possible. Or maybe it only works at that very specific moment in the jump, and at that specific distance, and that's why it's not more widely used.
 
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Re: STAR WARS TIME! - Spoiler Lock Lifted

Mon Jan 22, 2018 5:51 pm

Waco wrote:
Oh, so they weren't desperate during the other pivotal moments in the series when a quick hyperspace jump from one ship could have saved the entire fleet? Yeah, no.
...it never came up in any of the previous films. The only time an ENTIRE FLEET was threatened was...Endor? In that case, it would not have worked because the Imperial fleet was larger. The rebels could have sacrificed every single frigate, cruiser, and destroyer in their fleet and there still would have been Star Destroyers (and the Death Star) to mop up the stragglers.

This was the only case where the little guys were not only desperate, but they had a ship to sacrifice. They had already lost most of their fleet, and they had already planned on losing their last capital ship. Has that ever happened in a Star Wars movie before?
On second thought, let's not go to TechReport. Tis a silly place.
 
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Re: STAR WARS TIME! - Spoiler Lock Lifted

Mon Jan 22, 2018 6:17 pm

superjawes wrote:
...it never came up in any of the previous films.

Seriously? Jumping through shields and hyperspace bombing would have solved multiple critical plot points in the original trilogy.
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Re: STAR WARS TIME! - Spoiler Lock Lifted

Mon Jan 22, 2018 6:31 pm

..and even IF they had defenses for that sort of thing (..that were somehow nullified in this particular scene),

-you STILL have the problem of creating a Death Star, when a hyperspace bomb (or several) could achieve the same effect to a planet at a much lower cost.


It just doesn't work in the series in any reasonable manner.
 
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Re: STAR WARS TIME! - Spoiler Lock Lifted

Mon Jan 22, 2018 6:35 pm

Waco wrote:
Oh, so they weren't desperate during the other pivotal moments in the series when a quick hyperspace jump from one ship could have saved the entire fleet? Yeah, no. The whole jumping through shields thing ruins things as well.

The Resistance /= The Rebellion. I'm not sure how this will play out, but the two are NOT the same. The Resistance has far fewer assets, far fewer friends, and FAR more desperation.
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Waco
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Re: STAR WARS TIME! - Spoiler Lock Lifted

Mon Jan 22, 2018 6:36 pm

Captain Ned wrote:
The Resistance /= The Rebellion. I'm not sure how this will play out, but the two are NOT the same.

Same people, same thing IMO. It doesn't really change the physics though.

Hell, even in TFA they could have just hyperspace bombed the Starkiller base...
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Re: STAR WARS TIME! - Spoiler Lock Lifted

Mon Jan 22, 2018 7:24 pm

Waco wrote:
Seriously? Jumping through shields and hyperspace bombing would have solved multiple critical plot points in the original trilogy.
Really? When? Could a capital ship really have approached Death Star 1 without being annihilated (or disabled)? There was no point in hyperspace bombing at Hoth because the rebels could disable Star Destroyers while transports slipped through. And like I said at Endor, there were too many Imperial ships (and the rebel ships were loaded, so each sacrificial attack would have been devastating to the Alliance).

When would hyperspace jumping have worked? It only worked in TFA because Han Solo is...Han Solo, and the Falcon is relatively small and light. A big Imperial vessel trying to slip inside Hoth's shield would go splat. A smaller vessel (like a shuttle) would not have carried the siege weapons needed to kill the shield. How about Endor? Slipping directly inside the Death Star would be threading quite the needle. A slight miscalculation could go very, very bad. Then getting out is almost impossible because your fighters are going AT SPEED trying to jump out before getting fried, so that's a one-way trip sacrificing your best pilots.

Okay, maybe this would have gotten you on the moon, but only if you're good enough to avoid crashing into the planet (note that Han still hit the ground on Starkiller), and you might lose the element of surprise. Landing quietly as an Imperial shuttle was the best option to slip in without the Empire knowing (as far as the Rebels could tell).
On second thought, let's not go to TechReport. Tis a silly place.
 
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Re: STAR WARS TIME! - Spoiler Lock Lifted

Mon Jan 22, 2018 7:28 pm

Waco wrote:
Hell, even in TFA they could have just hyperspace bombed the Starkiller base...
Seriously? Does TLJ play up this sequence like this is a GOD WEAPON as powerful as a Death Star? Because I didn't get that (again, I point out that Snoke's ship had huge salvageable parts).
On second thought, let's not go to TechReport. Tis a silly place.
 
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Re: STAR WARS TIME! - Spoiler Lock Lifted

Mon Jan 22, 2018 8:14 pm

It took out most of a huge dreadnaught with shields up and a bunch of Star Destroyers. I think hyperspace bombing something that regular lasers took out on Starkiller base would have been pretty trivial in comparison, don't you?
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superjawes
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Re: STAR WARS TIME! - Spoiler Lock Lifted

Mon Jan 22, 2018 9:02 pm

It only took out a "chunk" of that ship, while leaving the majority intact. The line of damage seemed mostly contained (all things considered). The Star Destroyers were taken out by debris, so most of that is positioning (which can be adjusted to minimize the effect of attacks like this, assuming the enemy is prepared).

And still, THIS IS A CAPITAL SHIP. From a struggling force. Under ANY other circumstances, this would be a complete wast of resources.

Look, this has never happened before in Star Wars. That alone is enough to assume that there's a reason. How long does it take to activate a hyperdrive engine? Is there a cooldown after a jump? Can't your enemy detect you to see what you're doing, giving them time to prevent a stunt like this?
On second thought, let's not go to TechReport. Tis a silly place.
 
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Re: STAR WARS TIME! - Spoiler Lock Lifted

Mon Jan 22, 2018 9:39 pm

I don't get the defense of Disney shenanigans that make no sense.
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Re: STAR WARS TIME! - Spoiler Lock Lifted

Mon Jan 22, 2018 9:53 pm

I don't get "fans" deciding that they don't like a film trying to retroactively find reasons to hate it.
On second thought, let's not go to TechReport. Tis a silly place.
 
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Re: STAR WARS TIME! - Spoiler Lock Lifted

Mon Jan 22, 2018 10:16 pm

superjawes wrote:
I don't get "fans" deciding that they don't like a film trying to retroactively find reasons to hate it.



..but that's not the case.

It was scene breaking at the time of first viewing (..and I'm pretty sure that's what Waco mentioned as well).

I found it physically jarring - with a: "HOLY S... THEY JUST F...'ed UP THE ENTIRE COMBAT SYSTEM AND *ANY* SEMBLANCE of "workable" Star Wars universe". ..and I even blurted-out something like that in the theater. :oops:

..and I still actually enjoyed the film, far more so that 7. (..I thought 7 was unbelievably boring. This one was more like: "..slow, weird, disjointed, but still kind of interesting and fun here and there.")
 
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Re: STAR WARS TIME! - Spoiler Lock Lifted

Mon Jan 22, 2018 10:52 pm

I confess,

I hate Jaina's guts. So That's why I cannot, and do not see any way I can "respect" Rey.

Chewbacca is my least favourite SW character, so if a moon has to drop on anyone in SW, Chewie has my vote.

We finally get an interesting character (Aphra), someone I can totally get behind. I liked her because of her unique quality (Kinda evil, but maybe not, yeah, LUPHRA 4 Life!) Then they make her character Joystick Chevron with a female Imperial. People should know what I'm talking about). Long story short I thought for a few story arc I was getting Mara Jade and got Abeloth. They tried to pander to my demographic, then spat in my face.

You can find on youtube Kathleen Kennedy's saying something like The most important thing is to protect these characters. Han is dead. Luke is dead. Leia will be ambushed off screen/die in her sleep. Lando and Wedge either died when Starkiller base activated or died of old age. Same as Nien Nunb. Also Ackbar dies kinda offscreen (He will probably be confirmed dead on Home One in the inevitable Novel). Great job protecting people.

They told me (Leland Chee and Pablo Hidalgo and Sue Rostoni, et al) told me that EU Novel canon isn't going anywhere. That's why I kept buying the LOTF and FOTJ novels because I wanted to know what happens next in the official SW history. Then they reset the whole thing. And then they brought Thrawn back?! Have they no shame?

Things wouldn't be so bad if they wrote novels set in 100 ABY or something, but it's always going to be Journey to "the next movie". Ridiculous next movies. The novels do not move the story forward. And they are always going to be incomplete. You need to buy all novels, all comics, all video games and their dlcs and all movies, episodic and anthology to get the whole picture, move the story 1 hour in universe.
 
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Re: STAR WARS TIME! - Spoiler Lock Lifted

Mon Jan 22, 2018 11:47 pm

And still, THIS IS A CAPITAL SHIP. From a struggling force. Under ANY other circumstances, this would be a complete wast of resources.

I see this repeated over and over, and yet it's wrong every time.

Sacrificing one capital ship of 3,400M * 700M * 450M = 1.1B M^3 to disable or destroy:
~6 Resurgent-class star destroyers (3,000M and unknown height and depth but ballpark similar mass)
~A super-ship of 13,200M * 60,500M * 4,000M = 3.2T M^3

You're punching over 3,000 times above your weight with kamikaze attacks. It gets even crazier when you realize that a capital ship or super weapon has to be fitted with life support, weapons, personnel, etc. A ramming ship merely needs to be massive, jump-worthy and (maybe) shielded. You could use outdated dreadnoughts You could use a cheap freighter full of rocks. You could use an asteroid. You could use a fleet of asteroids, overwhelming any defenses. Why build superweapons if any yokel with a hyperdrive can cause planetary-level trauma with a superfreighter full of scrap metal?
 
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Re: STAR WARS TIME! - Spoiler Lock Lifted

Tue Jan 23, 2018 5:51 am

Reminds me of a bit in the old X Wing Vs TIE Fighter game. The Rebels loaded a blockade runner with a **** of warheads, and rammed it straight into a Super Star Destroyer.
 
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Re: STAR WARS TIME! - Spoiler Lock Lifted

Tue Jan 23, 2018 7:35 am

I've got to say that this thread has turned ludicrous and you people have sucked and destroyed all the sci-fi out of a sci-fi movie. Next Argument Mad Max: Fury Road
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Re: STAR WARS TIME! - Spoiler Lock Lifted

Tue Jan 23, 2018 7:41 am

tanker27 wrote:
I've got to say that this thread has turned ludicrous and you people have sucked and destroyed all the sci-fi out of a sci-fi movie. Next Argument Mad Max: Fury Road


Fun film, but that plan to cross the dried up ocean was SO dumb. Where were they going to get water and fuel from?
 
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Re: STAR WARS TIME! - Spoiler Lock Lifted

Tue Jan 23, 2018 7:53 am

tanker27 wrote:
I've got to say that this thread has turned ludicrous and you people have sucked and destroyed all the sci-fi out of a sci-fi movie. Next Argument Mad Max: Fury Road

I love that movie. :D


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Re: STAR WARS TIME! - Spoiler Lock Lifted

Tue Jan 23, 2018 9:13 am

tanker27 wrote:
I've got to say that this thread has turned ludicrous and you people have sucked and destroyed all the sci-fi out of a sci-fi movie.

It's actually why I'm reading this thread. It's fascinating, like I'm reading the opinions of very, very meticulously crafted artificial human intelligences.
 
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Re: STAR WARS TIME! - Spoiler Lock Lifted

Tue Jan 23, 2018 9:14 am

Chuckaluphagus wrote:
tanker27 wrote:
I've got to say that this thread has turned ludicrous and you people have sucked and destroyed all the sci-fi out of a sci-fi movie.

It's actually why I'm reading this thread. It's fascinating, like I'm reading the opinions of very, very meticulously crafted artificial human intelligences.

Silence, meatbag! :)
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Re: STAR WARS TIME! - Spoiler Lock Lifted

Tue Jan 23, 2018 9:19 am

dwooooo.
 
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Re: STAR WARS TIME! - Spoiler Lock Lifted

Tue Jan 23, 2018 9:29 am

Jeez, all I was trying to do was to come up with a plausible in-universe theory to explain what we saw in the movie.
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Re: STAR WARS TIME! - Spoiler Lock Lifted

Tue Jan 23, 2018 9:41 am

tanker27 wrote:
I've got to say that this thread has turned ludicrous and you people have sucked and destroyed all the sci-fi out of a sci-fi movie.

Even then, it's mostly fantasy in the first place. Space wizards, anybody? Augment-free psychic powers? I mean, come on. There's nothing that can "destroy" the Star Wars universe because nothing is impossible in the Star Wars universe. In the Star Wars universe time is distance and distance is time. The EU had to retcon what Han meant. The Star Wars universe was broken before ANH hit movie screens.

That doesn't make it bad. In fact, it makes it better because Star Wars is and has always been about turning off your brain and watching Space Wizards kiss their sisters.
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Re: STAR WARS TIME! - Spoiler Lock Lifted

Tue Jan 23, 2018 9:46 am

derFunkenstein wrote:
That doesn't make it bad. In fact, it makes it better because Star Wars is and has always been about turning off your brain and watching Space Wizards kiss their sisters.


Hey, she wasn't his sister until Jedi :P
 
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Re: STAR WARS TIME! - Spoiler Lock Lifted

Tue Jan 23, 2018 9:57 am

Depending on when you were born (1978 for me) she's always been his sister. I saw Jedi in the theater (maybe second-run theater, even) when I was 5 or 6 and then saw the other two after that. At that point, she was always his sister, and my sister and I were both totally grossed out. :lol:

But, I mean, Carrie Fisher was just beyond hot. Her apparent bra-lessness in that white gown meant the world to me as a pubescent child.
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Re: STAR WARS TIME! - Spoiler Lock Lifted

Tue Jan 23, 2018 9:58 am

If Star Wars had never existed before today, and A New Hope was released December 2017, the internet would say it was some of the dumbest trash they had ever seen. :roll:
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