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Hawkwing74
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Re: STAR WARS TIME!

Fri Dec 15, 2017 9:40 am

Krogoth wrote:
Ben betrays Snoke because he wants to tango with Rey).

Can you blame him?

Went to Metacritic and I see many reviews which are excoriating the movie and many 10's as well. It seems people are very split on how good it is. I'll go see it but I'm not in a hurry. My wife and I can't find good sitters, and they are also expensive in the Chicago area. So we will go separate to the movie. I feel like a basement dweller going to a movie solo but hey it saves $30+ dollars. And my kids would not nearly sit through it.
 
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Re: STAR WARS TIME!

Fri Dec 15, 2017 11:29 am

Hawkwing74 wrote:
Krogoth wrote:
Ben betrays Snoke because he wants to tango with Rey).

Can you blame him?

Not at all, he's Ben Solo too long...sorry couldn't resist a bad pun.
Maybe Rey melted his heart after nearly slicing his face off in their last saber duel. Love makes you silly.

Or he's realizing things didn't work out so well for Grandpa Vader and it's looking better on the other side...
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Re: STAR WARS TIME!

Fri Dec 15, 2017 4:00 pm

Only slightly spoilery.

I was decidedly underwhelmed. Better than 7 because at least it’s not a copy cat of 5, but beyond that, meh. Fun action scenes. But so much of the story just doesn’t make sense.
I’d give it a 6/10.
 
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Re: STAR WARS TIME!

Fri Dec 15, 2017 4:08 pm

Reading the metacritic reviews, they often agree. I am doing a first in my life, and not going to see it in the theater.
 
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Re: STAR WARS TIME!

Fri Dec 15, 2017 5:22 pm

Seen it on the 13th: it's so bad in so many ways, it's just a pile of mess which makes no sense: has no plot, badly edited, wrong choices, poor acting, poor sub plots, underdeveloped characters, no continuity, misplaced/unintended humor and much stuff I can't recall at the moment. Definitely the worst SW movie I've ever seen.
The press seems to like it but fans and independent reviewers almost equally agree this movie is a mess, just take a look at Rotten Tomatoes or IMDB user reviews.
I'm so disappointed.
 
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Re: STAR WARS TIME!

Fri Dec 15, 2017 6:22 pm

Yep, the audience reviews on Rotten Tomatoes are pretty polarized either loving it or hating it 50/50. It may be like some movies worth seeing more than once? Like when I watched "Napolean Dynamite" after hearing the hype and on first watch I was thinking that was weird and stupid. Then on subsequent viewings I was then thinking OK there is some clever humor in there.
Anyway I'm not setting any expectations high, just going for a good time with my kids.
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Re: STAR WARS TIME!

Fri Dec 15, 2017 6:35 pm

TLJ is going end-up being the "Star Trek V: The Final Frontier" of the franchise.
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Re: STAR WARS TIME!

Sun Dec 17, 2017 7:27 am

Krogoth wrote:
TLJ is going end-up being the "Star Trek V: The Final Frontier" of the franchise.


I wouldn't rate it anywhere near that bad. It had some of the usual Star Wars liberties with reality, but not nearly as much or as egregious as TFA did.

But now having seen it I have to agree with the film's director, the trailer did give away a lot of it. Some of my earlier predictions in this thread were spot on, had a 66-75% prediction rating. I think a lot of the stuff needed to happen to set up for the ninth movie, which I'm now looking forward to.
 
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Re: STAR WARS TIME!

Mon Dec 18, 2017 8:46 am

I saw it this past weekend. I'm still processing, but some huge plot holes just leap out at me right off the bat. That's not a good sign. And while it's not quite a one-for-one rehash of ESB, it certainly does rhyme.

There is some good in here. Some moments that are just awesome to watch. A lot of beautiful cinematography. The John Williams score is up to his usual standards, a significant improvement over TFA. I like the desperate mission by our small but plucky team of rebels to save the day at the last second... fails.

That said, there is a whole lot of bad in this movie.
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Re: STAR WARS TIME!

Mon Dec 18, 2017 9:24 am

Bombs that drop under gravity, in space.
Parabolic artillery trajectories, in space
An entire batalleon of AT-ATs and stormtroopers destroying all the salt skimmers except for the one going in a straight line to the only thing on the battlefield that needs defending.


There were also many bad scenes that added nothing, but that's par for the course for Star Wars. Despite the plot holes, physics stupidity, questionable character choices and silly settings for some of the action, I still overall enjoyed the movie. There were a few scenes that made it all worthwhile, I just wish it was more good and less bad....
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Re: STAR WARS TIME!

Mon Dec 18, 2017 9:28 am

Krogoth wrote:
TLJ is going end-up being the "Star Trek V: The Final Frontier" of the franchise.

Attack of the Clowns? Revenge of the Sith? The Phantom Menace? The series already has three ST5-caliber films.
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Re: STAR WARS TIME!

Mon Dec 18, 2017 10:36 am

derFunkenstein wrote:
Krogoth wrote:
TLJ is going end-up being the "Star Trek V: The Final Frontier" of the franchise.

Attack of the Clowns? Revenge of the Sith? The Phantom Menace? The series already has three ST5-caliber films.


I haven't see the the Last of the Jedi but saying it's worse than the prequel trilogy seems a bit strong even from most of the negative reviews I've seen.
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Re: STAR WARS TIME!

Mon Dec 18, 2017 11:17 am

Saw this in IMAX 3D and enjoyed the experience of it as a movie. It has good action, sometimes witty and funny dialogue, and good suspense. As a Star Wars movie, and a continuation of my most loved (and sometimes not-so-loved) franchise of all time, it wasn't what I wanted it to be. But, I think if you take all the unmeetable expectations out of it, and just accept it for what it is, trying to ignore some of the annoying plot stuff, its actually pretty good.

Here's what I didn't like:
-Yes, bombs dropping in space... but maybe they were really heavy and that dreadnought had its own gravity... nope, that's just wrong.
-The Force went from being something that is used by a Jedi in some kind of controlled, yet symbiotic relationship, to something that is just present and seems to protect people that need to be protected. Stormtroopers aren't bad at aiming, they are just really bad at getting through the Force. See: Leia's outer space force pull, Rey somehow not slicing off multiple limbs while practicing and then fighting with a lightsaber, etc.
-On from the last point - the Force used to be this thing you had to train really hard to use well. Now you can seemingly get buy with pure bruce, um, force, and determination. How is Rey supposed to avoid the Dark Side? She's clearly got anger issues, so what gives? Shoot, even Finn in the last movie was seemingly able to channel the Force when fighting Kylo at the end since nothing else explains how he wouldn't have gotten sliced in half in 2 seconds flat since he was apparently a completely untrained swordsman.
-Snoke is just... lame. He's not Jar Jar levels of bad, just lame. Having no idea where this guy came from or how he created/took over the First Order lessens whatever impact he would otherwise have. Same thing for Phasma. She's the only female stormtrooper we know of and it is not apparent why she has that lofty position she has since she's pretty terrible at her job.
-How did Del Toro's character know about the cloaked ships? Did Finn receive a transmission about it? Also, props to Del Toro for surviving (or at least apparently surviving) the film, that's a rare accomplishment for him.
-Essentially neutering Poe after the opening sequence. I really like him as a character, but basically grounding him for 95% of the movie was not great.
-Ackbar being unceremoniously killed off.


Here's what I did like:
-Action sequences are great. I really liked Rogue One's action, and this one kept it up.
-It echoed the Original trilogy without as much of a straight rehash as Episode VII. Overall, as with Episode IV, the rebels/rebellion sees the middle movie as mostly a series of setbacks, which gives it a good amount of gravity. It sets up a major struggle in the final movie since the resistance is in a far worse spot now than the rebellion was heading into Episode VI - at least then they had a fleet, and Ackbar.
-Overall, I just enjoyed it.


It's okay to just like a movie right? Of course it is. I like it despite it's many, and somewhat deep, flaws. I liked it way more than any prequel - rewatched Episodes I and II with the girlfriend last night and barely made it through, and more than Episode VII. Basically, I liked it for the same reason as I liked Rogue One - I took it for what it was and not compared to what I hoped it would be.

Negativity has a way of building on itself, so hopefully people don't get too down on a pretty fun movie like this.
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Re: STAR WARS TIME!

Mon Dec 18, 2017 11:20 am

Kougar wrote:
Krogoth wrote:
TLJ is going end-up being the "Star Trek V: The Final Frontier" of the franchise.

But now having seen it I have to agree with the film's director, the trailer did give away a lot of it. Some of my earlier predictions in this thread were spot on, had a 66-75% prediction rating. I think a lot of the stuff needed to happen to set up for the ninth movie, which I'm now looking forward to.


This is why I pretty much completely avoid trailers. I never go to the movies, so its not normally an issue. I really only watch trailers when I'm trying to figure out what movie to watch on a random weekend afternoon.
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Re: STAR WARS TIME!

Mon Dec 18, 2017 11:46 am

Chrispy_ wrote:
Bombs that drop under gravity, in space.
Parabolic artillery trajectories, in space



Anything in orbit is perpetually falling towards the planet. Slow down the ship, and the bombs would similarly appear to start falling. Though not in straight lines or that quickly, and I doubt they deaccelerated the ship with a single button.

The parabolic artillery arcs did tick me off... typical Abrams-esque contribution to any movie at this point.

Chrispy_ wrote:
An entire batalleon of AT-ATs and stormtroopers destroying all the salt skimmers except for the one going in a straight line to the only thing on the battlefield that needs defending.


It worked for Luke didn't it? :P

I enjoyed the movie, and physics stupidities aside, most of the complaints I've seen could easily be leveled at any other star wars movie. Especially the liberties with physics, like say hard bouncing the Falcon off sand dunes and taking it sledding across snowy hills in TFA.

southrncomfortjm wrote:
How is Rey supposed to avoid the Dark Side?


Because it's a choice? Vader had a lifetime of evil, but apparently was saved by a single choice to help Luke at the end of #6. Luke similarly was going to strike down Kylo Ren in his sleep, then made the choice not to.
 
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Re: STAR WARS TIME!

Mon Dec 18, 2017 12:19 pm

In space there's no free gravity and no sound. Most science fiction, not just Star Wars, wouldn't be very enjoyable were those rules of physics in a vacuum strongly adhered to. Would you truly enjoy it more if there were no "pew" and "boom" during those dogfights? If the answer is no, then I wouldn't nitpick about gravity too much.

That being said, the lightspeed sacrifice done in total silence was ASTOUNDING, even if it did take her way too long to figure it out especially since she had already resigned to die. I literally said out loud "took you long enough!"
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Re: STAR WARS TIME!

Mon Dec 18, 2017 12:24 pm

Kougar wrote:
southrncomfortjm wrote:
How is Rey supposed to avoid the Dark Side?


Because it's a choice? Vader had a lifetime of evil, but apparently was saved by a single choice to help Luke at the end of #6. Luke similarly was going to strike down Kylo Ren in his sleep, then made the choice not to.


Not really... though I guess my understanding comes a lot more from Expanded Universe stuff.
The Dark Side isn't a choice in the traditional sense, though I guess you could just choose to always go the quick, easy, and emotional route to get your objective. The idea as I see it is, if Rey or any other Force user gets their power from their emotions rather than from a more peaceful place, they start falling to the Dark Side. They continually rely on those emotions to feed their power, and eventually they can't help themselves.

Vader didn't make a choice to "give up the Dark Side." Instead, he chose to be selfless and defend his son at his own expense, a decidedly Light Side move. He also apparently never completely bought into the Dark Side, but was instead manipulated into it, so he was never a true believer. Unclear if the same would apply to Rey since she really doesn't know the light from the dark, she just knows the Force and thus far has used it for good purposes.

I was actually rooting for her join Kylo, mostly because I really love to see movies do the completely unexpected thing. What if in Episode IX, she defeats Kylo, but falls to the Dark Side in doing so. She's still a "good" person and wants to do good and defeat the First Order, but does it while wielding the Dark Side as the source of her power. That would be great.
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Re: STAR WARS TIME!

Mon Dec 18, 2017 12:25 pm

kvndoom wrote:
In space there's no free gravity and no sound. Most science fiction, not just Star Wars, wouldn't be very enjoyable were those rules of physics in a vacuum strongly adhered to. Would you truly enjoy it more if there were no "pew" and "boom" during those dogfights? If the answer is no, then I wouldn't nitpick about gravity too much.

That being said, the lightspeed sacrifice done in total silence was ASTOUNDING, even if it did take her way too long to figure it out especially since she had already resigned to die. I literally said out loud "took you long enough!"


Didn't Battlestar Galactica have a lot of silent or near silent battle sequences in space?
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Re: STAR WARS TIME!

Mon Dec 18, 2017 12:44 pm

Sorry folks, but this was among the dumbest movies I've ever seen. No plot, endless pointless side trips, gravity in space, intolerable slapstick "jokes"... It's 2.5 hours I'll never get back. Sure looked pretty though.
 
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Re: STAR WARS TIME!

Mon Dec 18, 2017 12:50 pm

Rapster wrote:
Sorry folks, but this was among the dumbest movies I've ever seen. No plot, endless pointless side trips, gravity in space, intolerable slapstick "jokes"... It's 2.5 hours I'll never get back. Sure looked pretty though.

This may be the simplest way of stating the problems with trilogy 3 - there is no story to tell.

One trilogy about Luke, one about Anakin, and the 3rd about ???
oh yeah, making money.
 
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Re: STAR WARS TIME!

Mon Dec 18, 2017 1:17 pm

Rapster wrote:
gravity in space

Have you seen episode 4?
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Re: STAR WARS TIME!

Mon Dec 18, 2017 1:18 pm

Destroying
Luke Skywalker's character
is unforgivable.
 
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Re: STAR WARS TIME!

Mon Dec 18, 2017 1:20 pm

Hawkwing74 wrote:
Destroying
Luke Skywalker's character
is unforgivable.

There's a relevant quote in this article (no spoilers, per se, but you can see what Hawkwing74 is complaining about in retrospect).
I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do.
 
southrncomfortjm
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Re: STAR WARS TIME!

Mon Dec 18, 2017 2:19 pm

Hawkwing74 wrote:
Destroying
Luke Skywalker's character
is unforgivable.


Don't agree on that point.
All that happened is that we found out he's as flawed as every other Jedi we've seen. I don't see that showing him as vulnerable, and susceptible to massive amounts of self-doubt ruins his character. I think it actually makes him a character rather than an just idealistic kid like we saw in the original trilogy. Adulting is hard, and it got to Luke in a big way. He did ultimately man up and sacrifice himself to save the Resistance. That's something.
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Re: STAR WARS TIME!

Mon Dec 18, 2017 3:36 pm

Sorry for my bad english.
Honestly for me it isn't just they killed Luke, it would've happened sooner or later, but there are a couple things to take into account.
I knew they were going to kill the old generation but with the Carrie Fisher's death i hoped they would rethink it making Luke die in IX and Leia in XIII, it would have made much more sense. There will not going to be CGI Leia so either they recast her or make an off-screen death I guess.


I will never, ever, forgive Rian Johnson for how he handled Luke.
The same guy who stopped his training to go to save his friends knowing it probably was a trap.
The same guy who spared a wampa that nearly killed him.
Now this guy lives milking sea cows, that scene was disgusting and after he drunk he looked straight at the camera, WTH!?
He not only basically has retired in a distant planet while waiting to die but he even wanted to kill his nephew, his own blood, in the sleep because he sensed darkness in him, Luke!

Luke was the guy who faced both the most evil and powerful sith in the galaxy and the second most evil and powerful sith in the galaxy at the same time because he sensed there was some good in Darth Vader and all that without killing anyone! An optimist to say the least.

That is nonsense, is stupidity, it's not a bold/risky choice: that is beyond bad writing, it's ignorance of what SW and its characters are, it's idiotic.
I swear I can go on forever with all the stuff that breaks the continuity or the lore of SW, with (the still) underdeveloped or disposable characters, the pointless chase, the sub quest, the bad humor/jokes and other inesplicable things that ruin this movie.
 
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Re: STAR WARS TIME!

Mon Dec 18, 2017 4:54 pm

Chrispy_ wrote:
Bombs that drop under gravity, in space.


I'm not sure how that's anything new to comment on seeing as how Y-Wings have done the same in other SW films.
 
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Re: STAR WARS TIME!

Mon Dec 18, 2017 4:57 pm

atari030 wrote:
Chrispy_ wrote:
Bombs that drop under gravity, in space.


I'm not sure how that's anything new to comment on seeing as how Y-Wings have done the same in other SW films.


It's perfectly fine! They're not dropping under gravity but instead because they have magnetic seekers! That's it!

In other news, I have a really really great explanation as to why it totally makes sense for the Millenium Falcon to do the Kessle run in under 12 parsecs, but TR's commenting system doesn't accept that much text.
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Re: STAR WARS TIME!

Mon Dec 18, 2017 5:35 pm

Judicator wrote:
Sorry for my bad english.
Honestly for me it isn't just they killed Luke, it would've happened sooner or later, but there are a couple things to take into account.
I knew they were going to kill the old generation but with the Carrie Fisher's death i hoped they would rethink it making Luke die in IX and Leia in XIII, it would have made much more sense. There will not going to be CGI Leia so either they recast her or make an off-screen death I guess.


I will never, ever, forgive Rian Johnson for how he handled Luke.
The same guy who stopped his training to go to save his friends knowing it probably was a trap.
The same guy who spared a wampa that nearly killed him.
Now this guy lives milking sea cows, that scene was disgusting and after he drunk he looked straight at the camera, WTH!?
He not only basically has retired in a distant planet while waiting to die but he even wanted to kill his nephew, his own blood, in the sleep because he sensed darkness in him, Luke!

Luke was the guy who faced both the most evil and powerful sith in the galaxy and the second most evil and powerful sith in the galaxy at the same time because he sensed there was some good in Darth Vader and all that without killing anyone! An optimist to say the least.

That is nonsense, is stupidity, it's not a bold/risky choice: that is beyond bad writing, it's ignorance of what SW and its characters are, it's idiotic.
I swear I can go on forever with all the stuff that breaks the continuity or the lore of SW, with (the still) underdeveloped or disposable characters, the pointless chase, the sub quest, the bad humor/jokes and other inesplicable things that ruin this movie.


Because he comes to realize that even if he saves the ones who have good in them, the pattern just continues. Anakin became Vader because the Jedi collectively failed him; an entire council of people who are supposedly masters of reading people among other things, didn't notice that the boy they saved from slavery was being crushed by guilt from leaving his mother behind, or that he was in love with Padme and terrified of losing her, or that he was filled with self-doubt, etc, etc.

Anakin didn't turn to the dark side because he wanted to be evil. He turned to the dark side because he wanted to bring order to a world in which his slave mother was murdered by raiders; and in which his pregnant wife doesn't have to die. The Jedi council, especially Yoda, actually see that he's filled with fear and anger - and realize that he's potentially the most powerful Force user ever - and decide to allow his training anyway.

Luke himself is tempted to the dark side in Ep6 when he almost kills Vader, stopping only at the last moment because - ironically - he hears the Emperor laughing, takes note of Vader's missing hand, and realizes that he's going down that path himself.

Then, after the empire is defeated, Luke finds himself faced with a nephew who is turning to the dark side despite all of Luke's best efforts... he comes to realize that when people have this kind of power, there is always temptation to misuse it. And where there is temptation, there will always be those who succumb to it. He sees the pattern and decides that the best way to stop the pattern is to stop teaching the powers in the first place.

Whether or not he's right about that, it's a completely reasonable conclusion for him to reach. And frankly, going away instead of outright murdering his nephew is completely within character for Luke as he was depicted in the earlier films.
 
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Re: STAR WARS TIME!

Mon Dec 18, 2017 6:16 pm

atari030 wrote:
Chrispy_ wrote:
Bombs that drop under gravity, in space.


I'm not sure how that's anything new to comment on seeing as how Y-Wings have done the same in other SW films.

This has come up so often in discussions of this film around the internet that it's almost like someone coordinated such an effort, ignoring this issue in other films in the franchise.
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Re: STAR WARS TIME!

Mon Dec 18, 2017 6:28 pm

I have yet to see the movie, and appreciate the spoiler tags, but when it comes to Y-Wings, the best WWII approximation (let's be honest, the ANH trench run was ripped straight from The Dam Busters) has to be the Fairey Battle.
Humans sleep soundly in their beds because rough cats stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm.

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