Personal computing discussed

Moderators: Captain Ned, emkubed

 
Arclight
Gerbil Elite
Topic Author
Posts: 765
Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2011 3:50 am

NIO EP9 is now the fastest supercar?

Mon May 15, 2017 2:19 am

Weird, an all electric car is now the fastest hypercar to have lapped the Nürburgring, at 6 minutes and 45 seconds beating their own previous time of 7:05 from late last year . Who would have thought, combustion cars are slow now.

http://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars/fu ... rburgring/
nVidia video drivers FAIL, click for more info
Disclaimer: All answers and suggestions are provided by an enthusiastic amateur and are therefore without warranty either explicit or implicit. Basically you use my suggestions at your own risk.
 
EndlessWaves
Gerbil Team Leader
Posts: 209
Joined: Fri Jul 10, 2009 10:41 am

Re: NIO EP9 is now the fastest supercar?

Mon May 15, 2017 5:35 am

With no details of the test conditions it's pretty meaningless. If they only did it with the minimum batteries onboard and race tyres then it's not comparable to production car lap times.
 
Chrispy_
Gold subscriber
Grand Gerbil Poohbah
Posts: 3880
Joined: Fri Apr 09, 2004 3:49 pm
Location: Europe, most frequently London.

Re: NIO EP9 is now the fastest supercar?

Mon May 15, 2017 6:01 am

For one lap, sure. Maybe even two or three laps!

IIRC, the stripped-down Tesla taken to Pike's Peak could manage three runs before it had to drop down to eco mode and drive back to a charging station (there are none on the mountain). That's under 40 miles of range at that level of performance. - uphill admittedly, but at the speeds cars are doing on Pike's peak, wind resistance is a far bigger concern than the gradient.

You're never going to see a multi-lap race with electric cars this decade, and you'll never see any kind of endurance race with electric cars. Perhaps one day they'll create a race-series where you can swap out entire battery packs like a traditional refuelling pitstop at the moment, but that goes against the current design philosophy of integrating the batteries into the floorplan to keep the centre of gravity as low-down as possible and welding armour over the part of the chassis holding batteries to prevent damage and subsequent thermal runaway.
Congratulations, you've noticed that this year's signature is based on outdated internet memes; CLICK HERE NOW to experience this unforgettable phenomenon. This sentence is just filler and as irrelevant as my signature.
 
JustAnEngineer
Gold subscriber
Gerbil God
Posts: 17337
Joined: Sat Jan 26, 2002 7:00 pm
Location: The Heart of Dixie

Re: NIO EP9 is now the fastest supercar?

Mon May 15, 2017 6:08 am

Chrispy_ wrote:
You're never going to see a multi-lap race with electric cars this decade.
http://www.fiaformulae.com/en
Saturday's race in Monaco was 51 laps. When the battery goes flat halfway through the race, they come to the pits and swap to a second car.
i7-6700K, NT06-Pro, GA-Z170N-Gaming5, 32 GiB, 980Ti, SM951, 5TB HDD, Blu-ray, FTZ01, SX600-G, 3007WFP+2001FP, RK-9000BR, MX518
 
bhtooefr
Silver subscriber
Lord High Gerbil
Posts: 8174
Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2004 11:20 am
Location: Newark, OH
Contact:

Re: NIO EP9 is now the fastest supercar?

Mon May 15, 2017 6:28 am

The problem with the NIO EP9 record is that it's not even a street-legal supercar.

Somewhere I've seen someone pointing out that it beat the Pagani Zonda R, but if you're including street-illegal cars, that's not the car to beat. The car to beat would be the Porsche 956, which set a 6:11.13 on the exact same circuit configuration as NIO's lap, in 1983.

Chrispy_ wrote:
Perhaps one day they'll create a race-series where you can swap out entire battery packs like a traditional refuelling pitstop at the moment, but that goes against the current design philosophy of integrating the batteries into the floorplan to keep the centre of gravity as low-down as possible and welding armour over the part of the chassis holding batteries to prevent damage and subsequent thermal runaway.

Well, Tesla's armor is bolted to the chassis, instead of welded, and they've designed it for 90 second battery swaps - it just turned out to be uneconomical to do those swaps, when their charging was fast enough for road car usage.

I wouldn't be surprised if you see someone doing an electric Garage 56 entry at Le Mans, probably in 2020 or so I'd guess. Maybe side-loading batteries?

Edit: Also, some of how I think a Garage 56 entry could work... Garage 56 is targeted to LMP2 pace. The winning LMP2 pitted 33 times over the 24 hours, and did 357 laps, so let's call stint length 10 laps here due to increases in pace for 2017. In a LMP2, a stint is 75 liters of fuel. Now, I'm going to guess that LMP2s are somewhere around 35% thermally efficient on average, and an electric would be about 90% thermally efficient, so you're looking at about 29.2 liters of gasoline equivalent.

One gallon of gasoline is 33.7 kWh, so you're looking at right about 260 kWh of battery required for a stint... but I'm not done yet.

At least with road cars, you're looking at about 1/2.4 (Smart ForTwo Electric) to 1/3.1 (Kia Soul) the energy used by an electric compared to the same non-hybrid gasoline vehicle on the US highway cycle, so that just dropped to somewhere between 84-110 kWh needed.

Then, consider that you can get the laptime in more efficient ways than brute power, especially in Garage 56, where huge parts of the rulebook are suspended. DRS (which will help a lot on the Mulsanne), all sorts of low-drag techniques that the ACO forbids to keep the cars slower, torque vectoring, rear-wheel steering, and a bunch of other techniques are available. I wouldn't be surprised if a purpose-built Garage 56 entry could be done with 42 to 83 kWh of battery. I think battery swapping will still be necessary, because even 300 kWh charging is too slow, but still...
Last edited by bhtooefr on Mon May 15, 2017 6:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
Chrispy_
Gold subscriber
Grand Gerbil Poohbah
Posts: 3880
Joined: Fri Apr 09, 2004 3:49 pm
Location: Europe, most frequently London.

Re: NIO EP9 is now the fastest supercar?

Mon May 15, 2017 6:46 am

JustAnEngineer wrote:
Chrispy_ wrote:
You're never going to see a multi-lap race with electric cars this decade.
http://www.fiaformulae.com/en
Saturday's race in Monaco was 51 laps. When the battery goes flat halfway through the race, they come to the pits and swap to a second car.


Lol, second CAR?!!!
I snorted my coffee :P

bhtooefr wrote:
I wouldn't be surprised if you see someone doing an electric Garage 56 entry at Le Mans, probably in 2020 or so I'd guess. Maybe side-loading batteries?


I was thinking that if they're doing a tyre (wheel) change, they might be able to get the batteries out quickly from each side at the same time. The problem with a lot of these electric sports cars is that the batteries are actually behind the wheel wells. You could rapid-swap them, pitstop style if the wheels weren't in the way, but I guess the wheels would have to come off, then the armour in the wheel wells would have to come off, but then you'd have easy access to the batteries.

As cools as Garage 56 is, they've currently only required one single lap on electric power. We have a long way to go to reach that in 2020. I like your optimism but I'm a realist ;)
Congratulations, you've noticed that this year's signature is based on outdated internet memes; CLICK HERE NOW to experience this unforgettable phenomenon. This sentence is just filler and as irrelevant as my signature.
 
bhtooefr
Silver subscriber
Lord High Gerbil
Posts: 8174
Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2004 11:20 am
Location: Newark, OH
Contact:

Re: NIO EP9 is now the fastest supercar?

Mon May 15, 2017 6:58 am

In the case of an LMP-style electric, I'd put the battery where the engine used to be, and extend forward beside the driver. (Note that every LMP1 hybrid has had the energy storage beside the driver.) So, it'll be fully forward of the rear wheels, and you could just lift a bodywork section, and pull the battery out in one unit.

Also, I edited my post with some napkin math (without any RGB LEDs).

That said, the ACO doesn't actually require anything from a Garage 56 entry, other than it being some sort of new technology, and that it sticks to LMP2 pace or slower. For instance, last year's Garage 56 entry was an old open cockpit LMP2 with hand controls (the new technology) for Frédéric Sausset (a quadruple amputee) to drive, while sharing the car with two able-bodied drivers. The ZEOD RC was the only attempt to run any percentage of engine-off on track so far, although there's been a few hydrogen Garage 56 entries (that have all failed to make it to the track - Garage 56 is expensive, and the companies trying hydrogen so far are small, although there's also rumors that BMW may bring in a hydrogen Garage 56).
 
Arclight
Gerbil Elite
Topic Author
Posts: 765
Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2011 3:50 am

Re: NIO EP9 is now the fastest supercar?

Mon May 15, 2017 7:22 am

bhtooefr wrote:
The problem with the NIO EP9 record is that it's not even a street-legal supercar.

Somewhere I've seen someone pointing out that it beat the Pagani Zonda R, but if you're including street-illegal cars, that's not the car to beat. The car to beat would be the Porsche 956, which set a 6:11.13 on the exact same circuit configuration as NIO's lap, in 1983.


It just seems like a heavier hypercar, is it really not street legal?
Last edited by Arclight on Sun May 21, 2017 3:41 am, edited 3 times in total.
nVidia video drivers FAIL, click for more info
Disclaimer: All answers and suggestions are provided by an enthusiastic amateur and are therefore without warranty either explicit or implicit. Basically you use my suggestions at your own risk.
 
bhtooefr
Silver subscriber
Lord High Gerbil
Posts: 8174
Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2004 11:20 am
Location: Newark, OH
Contact:

Re: NIO EP9 is now the fastest supercar?

Mon May 15, 2017 7:34 am

Hmm, maybe they did go and make it road legal - I know when it was unveiled, it was just a track car.
 
DreadCthulhu
Gerbil Elite
Posts: 991
Joined: Mon Apr 21, 2003 12:43 am
Location: R'lyeh

Re: NIO EP9 is now the fastest supercar?

Mon May 15, 2017 8:26 am

If we are talking about race courses, wouldn't it be possible to put induction coils in the track next time the surface is refinished, so the cars could recharge as they race? Then you would only need a small reserve battery on the car itself.
Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent. The competent use violence well before last resorts are necessary.

If violence isn't solving your problems, then you aren't using enough of it.
 
bhtooefr
Silver subscriber
Lord High Gerbil
Posts: 8174
Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2004 11:20 am
Location: Newark, OH
Contact:

Re: NIO EP9 is now the fastest supercar?

Mon May 15, 2017 8:36 am

That would help, although the highest-power system I'm aware of for this is KAIST OLEV, at 100 kW. A good supplement, but you'd still need to spend time at low speed or stopped to charge.

Also, in the context of endurance racing, the crown jewel of endurance racing is the 24 Hours of Le Mans, and much of the circuit's distance (and the entirety of the long duration high-power demand, where in-road charging is most needed) is on a couple stretches of public road.
 
curtisb
Gerbil XP
Posts: 352
Joined: Tue Mar 30, 2010 11:27 pm

Re: NIO EP9 is now the fastest supercar?

Mon May 15, 2017 9:57 am

bhtooefr wrote:
the crown jewel of endurance racing is the 24 Hours of Le Mans


http://www.24hoursoflemons.com/ :)

I have a friend who races on the Ratsun Racing team. He owns the car in the cover photo on that Facebook page.

And yes, I do realize this is nothing like the actual Le Mans racing. It's just cool to see them do this with a $500 budget (excluding safety gear) for their cars!
ASUS MAXIMUS VIII HERO | Intel Core i7-6700 | Asus STRIX GTX 970 4GB | 4 x Corsair LPX 8GB | 2 x Crucial MX200 500GB | 2 x Hitachi Deskstar 4TB | Phanteks Eclipse | Seasonic X-850 | Dell UP2516D
 
End User
Gold subscriber
Minister of Gerbil Affairs
Posts: 2177
Joined: Fri Apr 16, 2004 6:47 pm
Location: Upper Canada

Re: NIO EP9 is now the fastest supercar?

Mon May 15, 2017 10:51 am

Let's see it do more than one hot lap.


Tesla Model S goes into reduced power mode in less than 1/4 of a lap at VIR:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BfZLGIs0H14
3770K / P8Z77-V PREMIUM / 16 GB / GTX 1080 / XB271HU / U2713H / M500 960 GB / MX200 500 GB / G900 / G810 / Sennheiser PC 373D
1800X /AX370-Gaming 5 / 32 GB / RX 480 / 38UC99-W / 960 PRO M.2 1TB / MX Master / Surface Keyboard / Sennheiser PC 370D
 
Waco
Gold subscriber
Gerbil Jedi
Posts: 1752
Joined: Tue Jan 20, 2009 4:14 pm
Location: Los Alamos, NM

Re: NIO EP9 is now the fastest supercar?

Mon May 15, 2017 11:27 am

I'll be impressed when it can run significantly longer than 10 minutes at that clip.
Z170A Gaming Pro Carbon | 6700K @ 4.5 | 16 GB | GTX Titan X | Seasonix Gold 850 | XSPC RX360 | Heatkiller R3 | D5 + RP-452X2 | Cosmos II | 480 + 240 + LSI 9207-8i (128x8) SSDs
 
ludi
Emperor Gerbilius I
Posts: 6911
Joined: Fri Jun 21, 2002 10:47 pm
Location: Sunny Colorado front range

Re: NIO EP9 is now the fastest supercar?

Mon May 15, 2017 12:56 pm

Chrispy_ wrote:
JustAnEngineer wrote:
Chrispy_ wrote:
You're never going to see a multi-lap race with electric cars this decade.
http://www.fiaformulae.com/en
Saturday's race in Monaco was 51 laps. When the battery goes flat halfway through the race, they come to the pits and swap to a second car.


Lol, second CAR?!!!
I snorted my coffee :P

Still, 25 laps per car, he did get you on the technicality.

I remember reading a feature in Car & Driver about Formula E a few months ago, the real catch is that they run those battery packs much hotter and harder than in a production car, because the packs are considered to be an expendable component. Any road car will shut down the party a lot sooner to save the battery for next year.
Abacus Model 2.5 | Quad-Row FX with 256 Cherry Red Slider Beads | Applewood Frame | Water Cooling by Brita Filtration
 
JustAnEngineer
Gold subscriber
Gerbil God
Posts: 17337
Joined: Sat Jan 26, 2002 7:00 pm
Location: The Heart of Dixie

Re: NIO EP9 is now the fastest supercar?

Mon May 15, 2017 8:45 pm

As I understand it, the software limits this year's Formula E cars to no more than 200 kW (268 hp) of draw during qualifying and 170 kW (228 hp) during the race, unless they're one of the three most popular drivers voted on by the fans in social media, in which case they get an extra 100 kJ of energy alloted to be used to boost up to 200 kW. Each half of the race takes less than half an hour. They're supposed to go to higher power levels in future racing seasons as the hardware develops.
i7-6700K, NT06-Pro, GA-Z170N-Gaming5, 32 GiB, 980Ti, SM951, 5TB HDD, Blu-ray, FTZ01, SX600-G, 3007WFP+2001FP, RK-9000BR, MX518
 
Arclight
Gerbil Elite
Topic Author
Posts: 765
Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2011 3:50 am

Re: NIO EP9 is now the fastest supercar?

Tue May 16, 2017 3:35 am

They released the video of the run

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mcepG9Twa_8

Regarding Formula E, it's expected that in season 5, meaning at the end of next year, it will run on a single charge on account of almost doubling the energy storage capacity.
Last edited by Arclight on Tue May 16, 2017 8:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
nVidia video drivers FAIL, click for more info
Disclaimer: All answers and suggestions are provided by an enthusiastic amateur and are therefore without warranty either explicit or implicit. Basically you use my suggestions at your own risk.
 
Krogoth
Silver subscriber
Gerbil Elder
Posts: 5245
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2003 3:20 pm
Location: somewhere on Core Prime
Contact:

Re: NIO EP9 is now the fastest supercar?

Tue May 16, 2017 3:52 am

Arclight wrote:
Weird, an all electric car is now the fastest hypercar to have lapped the Nürburgring, at 6 minutes and 45 seconds beating their own previous time of 7:05 from late last year . Who would have thought, combustion cars are slow now.

http://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars/fu ... rburgring/


Torquely electrical engines favor that course due to its winding layout until the final straight. Consumption engines still win in a straight line though.
Ivy Bridge i5-3570K@4.0Ghz, Gigabyte Z77X-UD3H, 2x4GiB of PC3-12800, EVGA 660Ti, Corsair CX-600 and Fractal Refined R4 (W). Kentsfield Q6600@3Ghz, HD 4850 2x2GiB PC2-6400, Gigabyte EP45-DS4P, OCZ Modstream 700W, and PC-7B.
 
synthtel2
Gold subscriber
Gerbil XP
Posts: 463
Joined: Mon Nov 16, 2015 10:30 am

Re: NIO EP9 is now the fastest supercar?

Thu May 18, 2017 4:24 pm

It's not so much about torque or torqueband shape as peak versus continuous HP. An electric motor's near-perfect responsiveness is great for navigating constant windiness like that (especially compared to anything with big turbos), and the real limitation versus an ICE is sustained power output over that much time. If higher continuous power were available, we would see multi-speed transmissions in high-performance EVs, and top speeds would end up comparable to ICE vehicles. Alternately, more continuous power headroom could allow low-RPM series-wound motors doing their electrical-side CVT thing at currents higher than the battery pack can source.

The Nurburgring is pretty windy, but mostly those winds are decently large-radius, and average speeds definitely aren't low. It's a cool track in large part because it's demanding of so many aspects of a car. In this case, while near-perfect throttle response is obviously helping out in a big way, the sustained power demands are high enough to be really tough for EVs to keep up with, and the EP9 makes an excellent showing on that point. This goes double because they're using such massive amounts of downforce, and the drag coefficient has got to be pretty substantial.

I do question some of the handling dynamics here. Between individual-wheel motors (torque vectoring), active suspension, what looks like significant variability at the rear wing, and presumably highly-variable downforce according to ride height / ground shape (tying back into the active suspension), there's a lot going on there that isn't just throttle and steering position. It doesn't sound like a recipe for stable and predictable handling (not that 3g cornering ever really is), and watching the driver's steering inputs in the Nurburgring video seems to confirm that it isn't. Torque vectoring can do a lot to keep things pointed the right way, but even that track just looks too rough to maintain reliable grip, and it looks like they had to give it a major overall understeer bias to compensate. Altogether, it's an interesting point between road car and racecar handling, and I can't decide if I like it or not.
 
Captain Ned
Gold subscriber
Global Moderator
Posts: 25609
Joined: Wed Jan 16, 2002 7:00 pm
Location: Vermont, USA

Re: NIO EP9 is now the fastest supercar?

Thu May 18, 2017 4:52 pm

Don't forget that the 'Ring is a public toll road, which explains the pavement conditions (and all the chalk). The Karussel is all concrete underneath and was built in the 1920s, so you're stuck with that. Oh, and the entire complex is owned by a Russian oligarch.

I've read that the 24 Hours (seriously, 24 hours on the 'Ring???) makes Burning Man or Bathurst look tame in comparison WRT the fan behaviour.. The only real analogy is the Bog People at Watkins Glen in the late '60s/early '70s.
If the Earth were flat, cats would have pushed everything off of it by now.
 
synthtel2
Gold subscriber
Gerbil XP
Posts: 463
Joined: Mon Nov 16, 2015 10:30 am

Re: NIO EP9 is now the fastest supercar?

Thu May 18, 2017 5:13 pm

Of course the Nurburgring is pretty rough as tracks go, it's just that it's also pretty smooth as general roadways go. If a racecar can handle the Nurburgring, it'll be fine anywhere it needs to be, but if it's supposed to be a high-performance road car, that seems like a pretty low standard for bump handling. Or maybe I'm just spoiled by Subarus. :lol:

On a little bit of further thought, the EP9 is probably adjustable enough that this design works. For race mode, just bias the suspension more for oversteer and it'll be great (though I don't know how far that could go before it gets dangerous). For normal road use, just keep the ride height a bit higher, and the downforce will stay more reliably low and things will be a lot more predictable.

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: farmpuma and 63 guests