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tanker27
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Re: Native American Pemmican

Thu Jun 29, 2017 7:58 am

whm1974 wrote:
Captain Ned wrote:
Heck, just go get yourself some muktuk.

and just where could I get some whale blubber?


From an Inuit, DUH.
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Re: Native American Pemmican

Thu Jun 29, 2017 8:03 am

whm1974 wrote:
tanker27 wrote:
whm1974 wrote:
...... that is that meat is dried but not cooked .......

If you make 'real' jerky, yes, this is what is done to it.

Well doing that way would make it too strong. If you were planning on making rubbaboo stew out of it, than maybe that wouldn't be a problem, but eating it straight?

Not sure what you mean by "too strong". It's jerky. Jerky is dried beef. Do you like regular jerky or not? If you don't like regular jerky, you're probably not going to like Pemmican either.

TBH I love jerky, but can't eat it the way I used to because I've got to watch out for gout triggers these days. If you've never had gout, just imagine having razor blades shoved into your feet, and you have an approximation of what it feels like.
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Captain Ned
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Re: Native American Pemmican

Thu Jun 29, 2017 8:06 am

tanker27 wrote:
From an Inuit, DUH.

Watch out where the huskies go, and don't you eat that yellow snow.
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Re: Native American Pemmican

Thu Jun 29, 2017 8:45 am

Well if you are going to go to the trouble of lab-grown meat then endangered species like blue or humpback whales, panda or white rhinos are all fair game, or even recently extinct ones like Pyrenean ibex. North American first peoples ate mastodon and mammoth meat which all died out 10,000 years ago but frozen samples may be found to provide enough DNA (BTW DNA analysis of the "mammoth" or "giant sloth" served at the 47th Explorers Club dinner in 1951 has proved it was actually green sea turtle).

While this thread's title suggests long pig, I would recommend against it as the market for such a product would likely be too small to be profitable.
 
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Re: Native American Pemmican

Thu Jun 29, 2017 8:54 am

There's enough "good" DNA from permafrost-frozen mastodons/mammoths to fully expect that someone will clone one in the near future. Several teams are trying.
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tanker27
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Re: Native American Pemmican

Thu Jun 29, 2017 9:02 am

Captain Ned wrote:
There's enough "good" DNA from permafrost-frozen mastodons/mammoths to fully expect that someone will clone one in the near future. Several teams are trying.


I'm actually surprised they haven't been able to do it. Or if they have they are keeping it to themselves less they get a Jurassic Park outcry. I would have started with something smaller like a Thylacine (which would be very cool), Moa, Dodo, Great Auk, or Auroch; they are 19th century extinctions and we probably have more than enough DNA lying around.
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Re: Native American Pemmican

Thu Jun 29, 2017 10:02 am

tanker27 wrote:
I would have started with something smaller like a Thylacine (which would be very cool).

https://www.theguardian.com/environment ... -australia

Thylacines may not be gone. We have a similar situation here in VT where our Fish & Wildlife Dept. swears up and down that the Catamount (Eastern Panther, and UVM team name) is extinct yet has this annoying capability to show up on trail cams (just passing through, says F&W; not native).
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tanker27
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Re: Native American Pemmican

Thu Jun 29, 2017 12:23 pm

Oh Ned I know what you mean we have one that routinely shows up on trail cams here in Georgia! But ours is probably a Florida Panther who was endangered but is now growing, thriving, and expanding.

But a Thylacine! Again that would be very very cool. And as vast and uninhabited much of Australia is I can believe it even if it was introduced from Tasmania somehow.
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Re: Native American Pemmican

Thu Jun 29, 2017 12:38 pm

tanker27 wrote:
But a Thylacine! Again that would be very very cool. And as vast and uninhabited much of Australia is I can believe it even if it was introduced from Tasmania somehow.

I'll be the first to admit that any visual reference/conception I have of the great Aussie deserts comes from a certain movie franchise. That said, gov't wildlife "keepers" like to pretend that they know everything that lives in their district and don't like getting challenged by "new" information, mainly because it'll make their jobs more difficult and force them to revise long-held beliefs. Here in VT, it'll take the first road-kill catamount for F&W to admit that there's a breeding population here (the NE corner of VT, usually referred to as the Northeast Kingdom, is sparsely populated, completely forested, and perfect terrain for critters that want to be left alone).

My basic premise is that if you live someplace with large (1,000 miles2 or more) of "nowhere", you host more species than you regularly see.
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tanker27
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Re: Native American Pemmican

Thu Jun 29, 2017 1:25 pm

Oh definitely! I would take an avid hunters description over a F&W guys anyday. Just as long as he isn't crazy. Another sighting we are getting regularly down here in Georgia are Coywolves. (Coywolf) They were originally thought to have a range from Virginia -> northward but seems that they are coming further south than that.
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Re: Native American Pemmican

Thu Jun 29, 2017 2:01 pm

tanker27 wrote:
Another sighting we are getting regularly down here in Georgia are Coywolves. (Coywolf) They were originally thought to have a range from Virginia -> northward but seems that they are coming further south than that.

From what I've read you can kiss the genetic distinction between Eastern coyotes and wolves goodbye (the Western Gray Wolves appear to be remaining out of this orgy for now). They're genetically compatible mating-wise, and a horny male wolf or coyote doesn't really much care about the genetics of the other half.

We used to call them coy-dogs until it became apparent what was happening further to the north in Québec.
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Re: Native American Pemmican

Thu Jun 29, 2017 4:27 pm

Captain Ned wrote:
There's enough "good" DNA from permafrost-frozen mastodons/mammoths to fully expect that someone will clone one in the near future. Several teams are trying.

As far as exotic animal meats go, that could be a bigger seller than buffalo. And for the person who mention making long pig pemmican, well that does have it's advantages of being the cheapest meat around. However due to widely variable diet and habitat of the Long Pig there are some quality control issues that need to be ironed out first.
 
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Re: Native American Pemmican

Thu Jun 29, 2017 4:39 pm

whm1974 wrote:
However due to widely variable diet and habitat of the Long Pig there are some quality control issues that need to be ironed out first.

Ya know, at some point your "witty urbane banter" isn't going to play here anymore and those of us with non-white colors assigned to our nicks are really going to want to know where you're headed with your Arctic (or the rest of them, for that matter) ramblings.

I watched Nanook of the North when still in single digits, but never once thought that I should reorganize my life around Nanook's path.

Who are you chasing? Scott, Amundsen, or someone else?
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Re: Native American Pemmican

Thu Jun 29, 2017 4:49 pm

Captain Ned wrote:
whm1974 wrote:
However due to widely variable diet and habitat of the Long Pig there are some quality control issues that need to be ironed out first.

Ya know, at some point your "witty urbane banter" isn't going to play here anymore and those of us with non-white colors assigned to our nicks are really going to want to know where you're headed with your Arctic (or the rest of them, for that matter) ramblings.

I watched Nanook of the North when still in single digits, but never once thought that I should reorganize my life around Nanook's path.

I highly doubt that the Inuk even ate long pig.
 
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Re: Native American Pemmican

Thu Jun 29, 2017 9:06 pm

I am very surprised that no-one's mentioned today's shortbread lists lab-made meat as coming soon in a REAL consumer product because someone's gone and invested $120 million into it. No word yet on a Spam pemmican with mushroom ketchup flavor variety.
 
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Re: Native American Pemmican

Thu Jun 29, 2017 9:10 pm

bfg-9000 wrote:
I am very surprised that no-one's mentioned today's shortbread lists lab-made meat as coming soon in a REAL consumer product because someone's gone and invested $120 million into it. No word yet on a Spam pemmican with mushroom ketchup flavor variety.

Gotta make it with cloned woolly mammoth meat!
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Re: Native American Pemmican

Thu Jun 29, 2017 9:29 pm

Well it would be a shame to go through that much trouble only to make something that tastes like chicken.
 
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Re: Native American Pemmican

Thu Jun 29, 2017 9:46 pm

Maybe woolly mammoth tastes like chicken, though...
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Re: Native American Pemmican

Thu Jun 29, 2017 9:58 pm

Unlikely, as no mammal tastes like chicken. Birds, reptiles, amphibians and presumably dinosaurs do.

That leads to the next problem--if nobody's tasted mammoth, how will they know if they got the flavor right?
 
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Re: Native American Pemmican

Thu Jun 29, 2017 9:59 pm

bfg-9000 wrote:
I am very surprised that no-one's mentioned today's shortbread lists lab-made meat as coming soon in a REAL consumer product because someone's gone and invested $120 million into it. No word yet on a Spam pemmican with mushroom ketchup flavor variety.

Well cultured meat does look closer to being on the market than I thought. I was thinking another decade at least.
 
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Re: Native American Pemmican

Thu Jun 29, 2017 10:27 pm

bfg-9000 wrote:
Unlikely, as no mammal tastes like chicken. Birds, reptiles, amphibians and presumably dinosaurs do.

That leads to the next problem--if nobody's tasted mammoth, how will they know if they got the flavor right?


Maybe they'll get it wrong. Maybe what we think mammoth will taste like actually tastes like oatmeal, or tuna fish. That makes you wonder about a lot of things. Take chicken for example. Maybe we won't be able to figure out what mammoth tastes like which is why chicken tastes like everything.
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Re: Native American Pemmican

Thu Jun 29, 2017 10:37 pm

I am actually imagining vats of this lab grown meat on the sides of towers going into the sky like in the Matrix.
 
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Re: Native American Pemmican

Thu Jun 29, 2017 10:40 pm

bfg-9000 wrote:
Unlikely, as no mammal tastes like chicken.

I've heard that domestic (farmed) rabbit tastes kind of like chicken, though I don't personally recall (I think I've only had it once, and that was a while back).

bfg-9000 wrote:
Birds, reptiles, amphibians and presumably dinosaurs do.

Birds make sense. :wink: Duck and goose seem to have a richer flavor though. Maybe we've bred domestic chickens to be bland, much like our factory-farmed produce?

I can also confirm that alligator and frog taste kind of like chicken. Alligator seemed to have a faint fishy note, and the texture was closer to pork.
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Re: Native American Pemmican

Thu Jun 29, 2017 11:17 pm

I think it's what they were fed. Chickens that eat bugs are more flavorful than chickens raised on corn based feed, + ducks and geese sure love to eat slugs. Squirrels that mostly eat pine nuts apparently taste far worse and gamier than those that eat acorns.

Rabbit tastes more like pork but even corn fed pork chops that are overcooked do sort of taste like overcooked chicken breast--the predominant flavor is blandness. I don't know how they would avoid that with hydroponic culture.

The weird one is ostrich which tastes nothing like other birds.
 
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Re: Native American Pemmican

Thu Jun 29, 2017 11:25 pm

bfg-9000 wrote:
I think it's what they were fed. Chickens that eat bugs are more flavorful than chickens raised on corn based feed, + ducks and geese sure love to eat slugs. Squirrels that mostly eat pine nuts apparently taste far worse and gamier than those that eat acorns.

Rabbit tastes more like pork but even corn fed pork chops that are overcooked do sort of taste like overcooked chicken breast--the predominant flavor is blandness. I don't know how they would avoid that with hydroponic culture.

The weird one is ostrich which tastes nothing like other birds.

Avoid any corn or grain based nutritional broth for growing the meat in?
 
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Re: Native American Pemmican

Fri Jun 30, 2017 12:04 am

What a thread!

@whm: It's not that great a combination in my experience. I'd rather have the berries as a treat and keep the beef jerkylike.

More importantly: biltong > jerky.

Townsend has many neat videos. I may have linked the one about portable soup before on a LCHF rant... handy stuff if you find yourself buying big lots of meat.

Also also, western eaters are largely hyperpansies when it comes to fat, offal, marrow, etc. Favorite example is chicken skins: my butcher (Indiana) gives them to me for free because nobody buys them. The best part of the damnable creatures, iyam.
 
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Re: Native American Pemmican

Fri Jun 30, 2017 12:32 am

Jambe wrote:
What a thread!

@whm: It's not that great a combination in my experience. I'd rather have the berries as a treat and keep the beef jerkylike.

More importantly: biltong > jerky.

Townsend has many neat videos. I may have linked the one about portable soup before on a LCHF rant... handy stuff if you find yourself buying big lots of meat.

Also also, western eaters are largely hyperpansies when it comes to fat, offal, marrow, etc. Favorite example is chicken skins: my butcher (Indiana) gives them to me for free because nobody buys them. The best part of the damnable creatures, iyam.

I doubt that would eat offal, but bone marrow I would try, at least in soup stock or broth made from it. It's my understanding that pemmican made from just dried meat and rendered fat is rather bland and that Native Americans really only ate it when fresh food wasn't available or when they were on the move for some reason or such. While white trappers, explorers, haulers, etc where the ones who ate it more regularly than anyone else did. And even they ate fresh foods when ever they could.
 
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Re: Native American Pemmican

Fri Jun 30, 2017 5:58 am

whm1974 wrote:
Jambe wrote:
Also also, western eaters are largely hyperpansies when it comes to fat, offal, marrow, etc. Favorite example is chicken skins: my butcher (Indiana) gives them to me for free because nobody buys them. The best part of the damnable creatures, iyam.

I doubt that would eat offal,

Offal is pretty much anything that isn't muscle or bone. If you've ever eaten natural casing hotdogs/sausage, you've eaten offal. Liver is a form of offal; cajun-style rice frequently contains chicken livers, liver sausage made from pork livers is widely available (I imagine you've tried it at least once?), and German-style liver dumpling soup is delicious.

whm1974 wrote:
but bone marrow I would try, at least in soup stock or broth made from it.

A local brewpub used to serve something they called "marrow toast". The marrow came out still on the bone, which was a rather large section of a cow leg bone that had been sawn lengthwise in half. You scooped and spread the marrow on the toast yourself. Looked like something out of The Flintstones, and always got puzzled (or even shocked) looks from diners at nearby tables who hadn't seen it before. My wife was a fan of this menu item, and was very disappointed when they got rid of it. I can't imagine it sold very well, I think we only ever saw one other person order it (it was hard to miss).

whm1974 wrote:
It's my understanding that pemmican made from just dried meat and rendered fat is rather bland

Yes, based on the ingredients it would tend to be fairly bland.

whm1974 wrote:
and that Native Americans really only ate it when fresh food wasn't available or when they were on the move for some reason or such. While white trappers, explorers, haulers, etc where the ones who ate it more regularly than anyone else did. And even they ate fresh foods when ever they could.

Of course. It was intended as a way to preserve the meat for long periods of time, and took time and effort to prepare. You'd want to keep it in reserve for when fresh food is not available.
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tanker27
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Re: Native American Pemmican

Fri Jun 30, 2017 6:09 am

just brew it! wrote:
bfg-9000 wrote:
Unlikely, as no mammal tastes like chicken.

I've heard that domestic (farmed) rabbit tastes kind of like chicken, though I don't personally recall (I think I've only had it once, and that was a while back).


It does. I've had it few times in Italian dishes. Braised rabbit if you didn't know it tastes just like chicken. Cooks up like chicken too.
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Re: Native American Pemmican

Fri Jun 30, 2017 7:23 am

@just brew it!, I'm going to have to try that marrow on toast. How do I do prepare it myself?

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