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JustAnEngineer
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Re: Stay Safe!

Mon Aug 28, 2017 7:04 pm

John Deere makes tree felling equipment, too. Someone's got to chop down all of that lumber and load it on a truck to get it to the mill.
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Re: Stay Safe!

Mon Aug 28, 2017 9:34 pm

I've always been a fan of concrete construction myself. I like trees in a forest around an ICF home that can stand up to mother nature better.
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Re: Stay Safe!

Tue Aug 29, 2017 3:52 am

chuckula wrote:
I've always been a fan of concrete construction myself. I like trees in a forest around an ICF home that can stand up to mother nature better.

Err, ever been in the humidity and ambient salt around the Gulf Coast? The structural portions of a concrete building may withstand a Cat-3 hurricane better than lightweight construction, but don't count on longevity under ordinary wear-and-tear.
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layerup
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Re: Stay Safe!

Tue Aug 29, 2017 10:54 am

Redocbew wrote:
I assume they mean softwoods like spruce and pine in contrast to hardwoods like hard maple and mahogany. Construction grade lumber is almost always made from softwoods instead of hardwood. Redwood is the only example I can think of offhand where a hardwood is used as construction grade lumber, but that's usually for a deck or something highly visible that isn't going to get covered over in drywall anyway.


Yes, I realize his argument, but my point was that I'm not sure how Ludi came to the conclusion that SPF would be in shortage, because it is grown and milled in Canada. Perhaps there will be some acute reduction in availability in the Texas gulf coast for a short time, but commodity building materials such as dimensional lumber tend to always be available. He may have argued that Southern Pine availability may have become slightly constrained, but southern pine isn't often used in Texas anyway.
 
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Re: Stay Safe!

Tue Aug 29, 2017 10:56 am

chuckula wrote:
I've always been a fan of concrete construction myself. I like trees in a forest around an ICF home that can stand up to mother nature better.


Lucky for you, if you were to decide to move to Texas, you would find that it is all slab on grad anyway.
 
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Re: Stay Safe!

Tue Aug 29, 2017 11:02 am

ludi wrote:
when walls and subfloors have been sitting in deep water for a couple days or more there's no amount of drying out that will save them. Thinner materials like 2x4 pine tend to warp and split, plywood floor materials warp and delaminate, and the mold and rot starts in joints and seams. The best you can hope for is to salvage the structural portions of the building, worst case you push the whole thing over and start fresh. The materials required to rebuild an area flooded on this scale are going to suck down the North American supply chains for some time.


Drying will save them, it just takes 6 months. Depending on the soak time experienced by the wood, I would tend to toss them out anyway, due to the potential for fungal decay.

Plywood will not delaminate, full stop, read up on volunteer product criteria PS-1, or PS-2 for OSB. Yes, you will see some serious cupping and nail withdrawl/tear in the material, but the glue will not delaminate.

Still, slab on grade saves a lot of issues in this market for light weight construction, I would argue that with what I assume the drainage in houston is like, you will see replacement of Drywall and carpeting, but not terribly much replacement of structural framing.
 
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Re: Stay Safe!

Tue Aug 29, 2017 11:05 am

layerup wrote:
Redocbew wrote:
I assume they mean softwoods like spruce and pine in contrast to hardwoods like hard maple and mahogany. Construction grade lumber is almost always made from softwoods instead of hardwood. Redwood is the only example I can think of offhand where a hardwood is used as construction grade lumber, but that's usually for a deck or something highly visible that isn't going to get covered over in drywall anyway.

Yes, I realize his argument, but my point was that I'm not sure how Ludi came to the conclusion that SPF would be in shortage, because it is grown and milled in Canada. Perhaps there will be some acute reduction in availability in the Texas gulf coast for a short time, but commodity building materials such as dimensional lumber tend to always be available. He may have argued that Southern Pine availability may have become slightly constrained, but southern pine isn't often used in Texas anyway.

I think his point was that current stock probably isn't enough to satisfy the coming spike in demand, and there will be a lag before production and distribution catch up.
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paulWTAMU
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Re: Stay Safe!

Tue Aug 29, 2017 11:10 am

been on 12 hour shifts since this started doing our back end work.

I'm exhausted and I'm not even out there doing ****, I'm just in an office.

I had no idea Texas had this many shallow water draft boats, and it *still* isn't enough.
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ludi
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Re: Stay Safe!

Tue Aug 29, 2017 11:18 am

layerup wrote:
Redocbew wrote:
Yes, I realize his argument, but my point was that I'm not sure how Ludi came to the conclusion that SPF would be in shortage, because it is grown and milled in Canada. Perhaps there will be some acute reduction in availability in the Texas gulf coast for a short time, but commodity building materials such as dimensional lumber tend to always be available.

Not quite. In the US, last I checked anyway, the three main supplies to the US are Canada, the Pacific Northwest, and Indonesia (manufactured woods in particular). Anyway, to expand on JBI's comment: somewhere between "cut and mill everything" and "cut and mill nothing" there's a relative steady-state of production, including workforce and plant investments. Now there will be a temporary but very large rise in demand. Producers will chase those rising prices by maxing their production and temporarily increasing workforce, but they're unlikely to make new plant investments because they will know the new level of demand is not permanent.

The effects of that remain to be seen. IIRC the market effects after Katrina were not as severe as predicted but at the same time, a large portion of New Orleans was either not rebuilt or rebuilt a long time after the fact. I don't see Houston being that slow to recover.
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superjawes
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Re: Stay Safe!

Tue Aug 29, 2017 12:03 pm

ludi wrote:
The effects of that remain to be seen. IIRC the market effects after Katrina were not as severe as predicted but at the same time, a large portion of New Orleans was either not rebuilt or rebuilt a long time after the fact. I don't see Houston being that slow to recover.
IIRC, Houston has some of the greatest population growth in the nation, as does Austin (and possibly DFW). In other words, yes, the impact/demand on construction should be greater than that of post-Katrina New Orleans. Anything that isn't rebuilt in Houston will probably just move to another Texas city.
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Re: Stay Safe!

Tue Aug 29, 2017 12:53 pm

On a lighter note: here are the “five states” of Texas:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eLtil1r7ywI
From the movie “Bernie” with Jack Black.

I’ve lived in East TX and San Antonio while in the Air Force and I consider it my 2nd home state after FL. Texans are very resilient with a great sense of humor and an unassuming pride that will carry them through the hard work ahead as they recover. I know, my wife was born and raised Texan and been through a flood there before in the 1990's.
Anyway, continuing the prayers for the remnants of Harvey to move away soon and give them all some relief.
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Kougar
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Re: Stay Safe!

Sat Sep 02, 2017 9:47 am

Borrowed from The Washington Post:

"The most rain recorded in a single place during the storm was an astonishing 51.88 inches in Cedar Bayou, Tex. — just shy of the 52-inch U.S. record for rainfall set in tropical Hawaii."

Incidentally, the gas outages are truly crazy in Texas. San Antonio wasn't even affected by Harvey, but out of 23 stations in one zip code alone, only 3 have gas as of this morning. I've seen photos showing lines stretching around several blocks just for Costco stations across the state.
 
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Re: Stay Safe!

Sat Sep 02, 2017 11:22 am

True, the impact of the storm is unprecedented for that area. My wife's parents and brother were able to drive out yesterday and are headed up north to stay with us until the city of Beaumont can recover. The city water system is still compromised but more roads are opening up now to get the supplies into east TX.
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Re: Stay Safe!

Sat Sep 02, 2017 8:32 pm

Ouch, glad that they are okay. Beaumont was hit the hardest by some accounts, heard the city became an island for awhile.

What I don't understand is the apparent disconnect between officials claiming there is no gas shortage / outage, and current reality. Out of 51 stations in three zip codes only 4 still have gas as of right now. It's been days and is clearly getting worse, not better.
 
the
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Re: Stay Safe!

Sat Sep 02, 2017 9:08 pm

Overall, I think they are correct that there isn't a supply side shortage. Rather the issue is a shipping logistics issue as the supply they do have available simply isn't reaching their destinations, even areas not directly hit by the hurricane. How much of the transport for gas when through that part of Texas that was impacted though?
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DancinJack
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Re: Stay Safe!

Sat Sep 02, 2017 9:19 pm

Ruh roh. Looks like some Superfund sites have been flooded. Hopefully they can control it, because if not, ****.

https://apnews.com/27796dd13b9549b0ac76aded58a15122
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Re: Stay Safe!

Sat Sep 02, 2017 9:31 pm

DancinJack wrote:
Ruh roh. Looks like some Superfund sites have been flooded. Hopefully they can control it, because if not, ****.

https://apnews.com/27796dd13b9549b0ac76aded58a15122

Anything in the upper layers of soil has likely already leached out into the flood water and been spread far and wide. The billion dollar question is, what (if anything) got leached, and if so, how much? The situation could be anything from "meh, we're no worse off than we were already" to "holy crap, now we've got really nasty carcinogenic crap spread all over the damn place". We just don't know yet.
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Re: Stay Safe!

Sun Sep 03, 2017 1:57 am

the wrote:
Overall, I think they are correct that there isn't a supply side shortage. Rather the issue is a shipping logistics issue as the supply they do have available simply isn't reaching their destinations, even areas not directly hit by the hurricane. How much of the transport for gas when through that part of Texas that was impacted though?


I-10 is a major transport corridor, but it's been open for awhile now. I-35 is one of the biggest transport corridors due to trade with Mexico and that wasn't affected at all. Soon as a tanker truck shows up the station sells out again in hours.

I've seen aerial photos of Costco stations in Texas and it's like 1973 redux. In one photo from yesterday there were over 80+ cars in line at a single Costco gas station, and you have to be a member to buy that gas.Twitter is chock full of photos and videos of the gas lines statewide.

just brew it! wrote:
DancinJack wrote:
Ruh roh. Looks like some Superfund sites have been flooded. Hopefully they can control it, because if not, ****.

https://apnews.com/27796dd13b9549b0ac76aded58a15122

Anything in the upper layers of soil has likely already leached out into the flood water and been spread far and wide. The billion dollar question is, what (if anything) got leached, and if so, how much? The situation could be anything from "meh, we're no worse off than we were already" to "holy crap, now we've got really nasty carcinogenic crap spread all over the damn place". We just don't know yet.


Jesus, never even crossed my mind. Will be forwarding that report to my mother.
 
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Re: Stay Safe!

Sun Sep 03, 2017 7:47 am

Kougar wrote:
I've seen aerial photos of Costco stations in Texas and it's like 1973 redux. In one photo from yesterday there were over 80+ cars in line at a single Costco gas station, and you have to be a member to buy that gas.

Heck, it isn't unusual to see 30+ cars in line at our local Costco on a normal weekend. They're almost always at least 5 cents/gallon less than anyone else in the area, so if you're a member that's where you buy your gas.
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Re: Stay Safe!

Sun Sep 03, 2017 3:02 pm

just brew it! wrote:
Heck, it isn't unusual to see 30+ cars in line at our local Costco on a normal weekend. They're almost always at least 5 cents/gallon less than anyone else in the area, so if you're a member that's where you buy your gas.

Really? I'm guessing that's mostly older folks....overvaluing today's dollar versus their time. At that rate, Costco would be saving me about 55 cents on an average pump. Nowhere near the trouble if there's 30 cars.
 
paulWTAMU
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Re: Stay Safe!

Sun Sep 03, 2017 3:05 pm

Our network is still talking to each other constnatly and I can tell you there's problems filling up in SA and Dallas and Austin today :/ Mostly because people are panicky. MIB had it right.

I like living in the panhandle!
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just brew it!
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Re: Stay Safe!

Sun Sep 03, 2017 4:58 pm

The Egg wrote:
just brew it! wrote:
Heck, it isn't unusual to see 30+ cars in line at our local Costco on a normal weekend. They're almost always at least 5 cents/gallon less than anyone else in the area, so if you're a member that's where you buy your gas.

Really? I'm guessing that's mostly older folks....overvaluing today's dollar versus their time. At that rate, Costco would be saving me about 55 cents on an average pump. Nowhere near the trouble if there's 30 cars.

That's 30 cars spread out over 10 lanes though. So only 3 deep.
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Re: Stay Safe!

Mon Sep 04, 2017 5:44 am

Kougar wrote:
just brew it! wrote:
DancinJack wrote:
Ruh roh. Looks like some Superfund sites have been flooded. Hopefully they can control it, because if not, ****.
https://apnews.com/27796dd13b9549b0ac76aded58a15122

Anything in the upper layers of soil has likely already leached out into the flood water and been spread far and wide. The billion dollar question is, what (if anything) got leached, and if so, how much? The situation could be anything from "meh, we're no worse off than we were already" to "holy crap, now we've got really nasty carcinogenic crap spread all over the damn place". We just don't know yet.
Jesus, never even crossed my mind. Will be forwarding that report to my mother.
Apparently, it was fake news:
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/epa-blas ... 08029.html
Liz Bowman, EPA wrote:
Once again, in an attempt to mislead Americans, the Associated Press is cherry-picking facts, as EPA is monitoring Superfund sites around Houston and we have a team of experts on the ground working with our state and local counterparts responding to Hurricane Harvey. Anything to the contrary is yellow journalism.
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Re: Stay Safe!

Mon Sep 04, 2017 7:10 am

A chemical industry lobbyist, appointed to the position by the Trump administration to oversee the EPA's budget being cut by a third and the removal of regulations.
 
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Re: Stay Safe!

Mon Sep 04, 2017 9:29 pm

I was going to say, that EPA response read more like a snippet from Trump's Twitter stream than a typical agency communication. Not that the AP reporting was flawless; all they could honestly say was that certain Superfund sites were underwater, ask the EPA for comment, and interview the locals for history (which they did). But some of the additional "color" seemed more speculative than appropriate considering water measured in feet was still over some of the sites.
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just brew it!
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Re: Stay Safe!

Mon Sep 04, 2017 9:36 pm

Should I split the toxic waste tangent to R&P, or are we about done with the political angle?
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Re: Stay Safe!

Mon Sep 04, 2017 9:45 pm

Ugh. Latest National Hurricane Center data on Irma, already a Cat 4, has her shooting the gap between Florida and Cuba and heading into the Gulf. Tis still early, so things will likely change, but the latest prediction is not a Good Thing(TM).

One thing is for sure, though. The Virgin Islands (both US and UK), as well as a good chunk of the Leeward Islands chain, are likely to get whacked. PR and Jamaica are in the cone of danger as well.
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just brew it!
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Re: Stay Safe!

Mon Sep 04, 2017 10:01 pm

Yeah, shaping up to be a very messy hurricane season this year. And we've still got a couple of months to go.
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Captain Ned
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Re: Stay Safe!

Mon Sep 04, 2017 10:09 pm

just brew it! wrote:
Yeah, shaping up to be a very messy hurricane season this year. And we've still got a couple of months to go.

Truth be told we've had a good run, seeing as the last "major hurricane" (Cat 3 or more) to hit the continental US came in 2005 (Matthew). People remember the pain, but don't remember the peaceful lulls.
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Re: Stay Safe!

Mon Sep 04, 2017 11:06 pm

Captain Ned wrote:
just brew it! wrote:
Yeah, shaping up to be a very messy hurricane season this year. And we've still got a couple of months to go.

Truth be told we've had a good run, seeing as the last "major hurricane" (Cat 3 or more) to hit the continental US came in 2005 (Matthew). People remember the pain, but don't remember the peaceful lulls.

Surely you mean Katrina?
Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.

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