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notfred
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Re: Quite possibly the greatest car ever

Wed Nov 15, 2017 2:20 pm

Renault weren't the only ones throwing F1 motors in "production" vehicles. The Ford Transit Supervan 3 originally had a Cosworth V8 in it.
 
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Re: Quite possibly the greatest car ever

Wed Nov 15, 2017 2:36 pm

ptsant wrote:
End User wrote:
ptsant wrote:
Sorry, but a car with rear-engine is fundamentally wrong. I'd rather have a Cayman 981 GT4 (if you are into Porsche) or Ferrari 458 (no, not the latest turbo one).

A 991.2 GT3 will grind a 981 GT4 to a pulp and not think twice about it. Porsche hampered the GT4 with overly tall gearing.


You are comparing a car costing (local prices) $180k vs ~$120k. I sure hope the GT3 wins.

You stated that "a car with rear-engine is fundamentally wrong". You did not mention anything about price. Apparently you are not aware of the price of a 458.

ptsant wrote:
It appears that the Cayman gt4 has a very fast lap time at he Nurburgring, compared with such exotics as the GT3 RS and the Audi R8.
http://www.autoguide.com/auto-news/2015 ... ound-the-n

Both the 997 GT3 RS and the R8 in that article are a decade old.

The current rear-engined 991.2 GT3 beat both the mid-engined 981 GT4 (27 seconds) and the mid-engined 458 (15 seconds). The 991.2 GT2 RS is 26 seconds faster than the 991.2 GT3! It is absolutely amazing what Porsche has done with the 911.

I'd love to see that Singer Williams post a time.
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Re: Quite possibly the greatest car ever

Wed Nov 15, 2017 2:37 pm

notfred wrote:
Renault weren't the only ones throwing F1 motors in "production" vehicles. The Ford Transit Supervan 3 originally had a Cosworth V8 in it.

Another blast from the past. Awesome!
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Re: Quite possibly the greatest car ever

Wed Nov 15, 2017 4:46 pm

The Egg wrote:
I can't get into any of the new american muscle cars. They've got crazy high HP and I'm sure they're a blast, but they're also rather oaf'ish by today's standards. They don't have the character of the classics, and high horsepower alone just doesn't impress me these days.

It also seems like american sports cars have been priced well outside the range of their target demographic since at least the mid-90's.

I would say the last 10 years has really helped in that area. Look at the Mustang GT350R as an example of a very well handling car that is still very muscle-ey. Even the latest viper was described by some reviewers as being able to corner better than many supercars.
 
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Re: Quite possibly the greatest car ever

Wed Nov 15, 2017 4:46 pm

End User wrote:
You stated that "a car with rear-engine is fundamentally wrong". You did not mention anything about price. Apparently you are not aware of the price of a 458.

...

The current rear-engined 991.2 GT3 beat both the mid-engined 981 GT4 (27 seconds) and the mid-engined 458 (15 seconds). The 991.2 GT2 RS is 26 seconds faster than the 991.2 GT3! It is absolutely amazing what Porsche has done with the 911.

I'd love to see that Singer Williams post a time.


I still stand by my initial statement because I prefer a car that has a more neutral balance and I've heard from several people who owned both that this is true. Judging from the number of supercars that have a rear engine (the 911) vs ones with a mid engine (practically all the other ones), I'm not the only one who likes this trade off.

By the way, a 458 Challenge (the "sportier" version) with 5000km costs less than a new 911GT3, so the Ferrari enters into the equation if you are not opposed to buying second hand. Actually, I counted 22 used Ferrari 458 that are on sale for less than a new GT3 in a range of 200km, so you even get to choose colors and extras. The *new* Ferrari 488 is much more expensive, of course, but I would avoid the turbo if possible.

Thanks for the lap times. We'll have to see what the new Cayman GT4 brings, although it is quite clear that marketing (not engineering!) will never allow it to be truly competitive with the more expensive 911.
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Re: Quite possibly the greatest car ever

Wed Nov 15, 2017 8:03 pm

ptsant wrote:
End User wrote:
You stated that "a car with rear-engine is fundamentally wrong". You did not mention anything about price. Apparently you are not aware of the price of a 458.

...

The current rear-engined 991.2 GT3 beat both the mid-engined 981 GT4 (27 seconds) and the mid-engined 458 (15 seconds). The 991.2 GT2 RS is 26 seconds faster than the 991.2 GT3! It is absolutely amazing what Porsche has done with the 911.

I'd love to see that Singer Williams post a time.


I still stand by my initial statement because I prefer a car that has a more neutral balance

Your initial statement had nothing to do with “neutral balance” and had everything to do with ”a car with rear-engine is fundamentally wrong".
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Re: Quite possibly the greatest car ever

Wed Nov 15, 2017 8:15 pm

The Egg wrote:
I can't get into any of the new american muscle cars. They've got crazy high HP and I'm sure they're a blast, but they're also rather oaf'ish by today's standards. They don't have the character of the classics, and high horsepower alone just doesn't impress me these days.

It also seems like american sports cars have been priced well outside the range of their target demographic since at least the mid-90's.

What are you smoking. It is the golden age of the American muscle car. The Mustang 350R and the Camaro 1SS 1LE are absolute track monsters with tons of character. The 1SS 1LE is an absolute performance bargain. The new 2018 Mustang GT with Performance Pack Level 2 is looking particularly tasty.

The muscle cars of yesteryear are lumbering boats compared to what we have now.
Last edited by End User on Wed Nov 15, 2017 9:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Quite possibly the greatest car ever

Wed Nov 15, 2017 9:49 pm

A really nice post on the Singer Williams. The rear window air intake system is extraordinary:

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Re: Quite possibly the greatest car ever

Wed Nov 15, 2017 11:30 pm

End User wrote:
The Egg wrote:
I can't get into any of the new american muscle cars. They've got crazy high HP and I'm sure they're a blast, but they're also rather oaf'ish by today's standards. They don't have the character of the classics, and high horsepower alone just doesn't impress me these days.

It also seems like american sports cars have been priced well outside the range of their target demographic since at least the mid-90's.

What are you smoking. It is the golden age of the American muscle car. The Mustang 350R and the Camaro 1SS 1LE are absolute track monsters with tons of character. The 1SS 1LE is an absolute performance bargain. The new 2018 Mustang GT with Performance Pack Level 2 is looking particularly tasty.

Your definition of "golden age" must be vastly different from mine. My dad bought a '68 Chevelle SS396 brand new and entirely on his own when he was 21. Sure, times are different, but the GT350R starts at 65 grand. That's untouchable by the entirety of their target demographic.....unless their target demographic is now old men with money to burn (in which case, maybe the term "golden age" is appropriate).
 
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Re: Quite possibly the greatest car ever

Wed Nov 15, 2017 11:41 pm

LOL talking about modern Chrysler vehicles (which are garbage) on a post about Porsche is funny. Not even remotely the same league of vehicle. American corporations are too concerned with spending only enough to make a sale rather than spending however much it takes to make it perfect (as they're able).
 
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Re: Quite possibly the greatest car ever

Thu Nov 16, 2017 12:07 am

hkuspc40 wrote:
LOL talking about modern Chrysler vehicles (which are garbage) on a post about Porsche is funny. Not even remotely the same league of vehicle. American corporations are too concerned with spending only enough to make a sale rather than spending however much it takes to make it perfect (as they're able).

Chrysler isn't an American corporation any more... :wink:

Our '02 Chrysler mini-van lasted longer than I expected though. It has a ton of rust and leaks a little oil these days, but it still runs well. I wouldn't trust it for a road trip, but it's still perfectly fine for running errands around town.
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Re: Quite possibly the greatest car ever

Thu Nov 16, 2017 4:05 am

End User wrote:
What are you smoking. It is the golden age of the American muscle car. The Mustang 350R and the Camaro 1SS 1LE are absolute track monsters with tons of character. The 1SS 1LE is an absolute performance bargain. The new 2018 Mustang GT with Performance Pack Level 2 is looking particularly tasty.

Those are fine vehicles, but the original muscle car was a stripped-out econobox that traded the cost of the Deleted Everything for a large upgrade under the hood, and thus kept the price fairly close to the humble origins. There's nothing like that on the market right now, although the Fiesta ST and Civic Si make an attempt. Next step above that without going into the mid-five-figures is a used turbo 'Roo, but lately even those are holding their value far too well unless completely trashed.
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Re: Quite possibly the greatest car ever

Thu Nov 16, 2017 7:02 am

ptsant wrote:
By the way, a 458 Challenge (the "sportier" version) with 5000km costs less than a new 911GT3, so the Ferrari enters into the equation if you are not opposed to buying second hand. Actually, I counted 22 used Ferrari 458 that are on sale for less than a new GT3 in a range of 200km, so you even get to choose colors and extras. The *new* Ferrari 488 is much more expensive, of course, but I would avoid the turbo if possible.


This discussion started off interesting and credible, but has rapidly degenerated into you arguing with everyone that your opinion is the only right one using ridiculous comparisons. Once you start saying that a really expensive car is cheaper than a much cheaper car because you can buy the expensive one from the used market, you know you're getting desperate and should just take a step back and look at what you're saying.
Congratulations, you've noticed that this year's signature is based on outdated internet memes; CLICK HERE NOW to experience this unforgettable phenomenon. This sentence is just filler and as irrelevant as my signature.
 
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Re: Quite possibly the greatest car ever

Thu Nov 16, 2017 8:41 am

Chrispy_ wrote:
ptsant wrote:
By the way, a 458 Challenge (the "sportier" version) with 5000km costs less than a new 911GT3, so the Ferrari enters into the equation if you are not opposed to buying second hand. Actually, I counted 22 used Ferrari 458 that are on sale for less than a new GT3 in a range of 200km, so you even get to choose colors and extras. The *new* Ferrari 488 is much more expensive, of course, but I would avoid the turbo if possible.


This discussion started off interesting and credible, but has rapidly degenerated into you arguing with everyone that your opinion is the only right one using ridiculous comparisons. Once you start saying that a really expensive car is cheaper than a much cheaper car because you can buy the expensive one from the used market, you know you're getting desperate and should just take a step back and look at what you're saying.


I read your previous message and did not respond because I mostly agree with what you said. Now, I do feel strongly about the subject but only because it is my personal preference.
I also hate chinese food. So what? Do we have to reach a consensus or something?

Anyway, I'm only responding here because you seem to believe that the 458 can be bought new. Actually it is no longer being made and has been replaced by the 488, which I don't like as much (based on reviews, never driven one!). So when I said in the very beginning of the thread that I would rather buy the Ferrari 458, I assumed that everyone understood it is a used car. You really can't compare a new GT3 with a new 458 because the second one no longer exists as an option. Still a great car though.
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Re: Quite possibly the greatest car ever

Thu Nov 16, 2017 9:52 am

I haven't mentioned the 458; it wasn't me that even brought it up.

I just rolled my eyes when you start trying to justify new vs used prices. Apples vs Oranges etc.
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Re: Quite possibly the greatest car ever

Thu Nov 16, 2017 11:17 am

The Egg wrote:
End User wrote:
The Egg wrote:
I can't get into any of the new american muscle cars. They've got crazy high HP and I'm sure they're a blast, but they're also rather oaf'ish by today's standards. They don't have the character of the classics, and high horsepower alone just doesn't impress me these days.

It also seems like american sports cars have been priced well outside the range of their target demographic since at least the mid-90's.

What are you smoking. It is the golden age of the American muscle car. The Mustang 350R and the Camaro 1SS 1LE are absolute track monsters with tons of character. The 1SS 1LE is an absolute performance bargain. The new 2018 Mustang GT with Performance Pack Level 2 is looking particularly tasty.

Your definition of "golden age" must be vastly different from mine. My dad bought a '68 Chevelle SS396 brand new and entirely on his own when he was 21. Sure, times are different, but the GT350R starts at 65 grand. That's untouchable by the entirety of their target demographic

For half the price of the 350R you can get a V6 1LE or a base SS with a 6.2l V8. I think the $45,395 1LE has the right balance of performance/price.

And yes, times are very different. The Dodge Challenger Demon Starts At $84,995. The 2019 Chevrolet Corvette ZR1 is going to be north of $120,000.
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