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Re: Active Safety in Cars: What's good?

Fri Jan 19, 2018 9:12 pm

JustAnEngineer wrote:
notfred wrote:
Unfortunately, the MGU-H (Motor Generator Unit - Heat) attached to the turbo in Formula 1 has been a source of many problems over the past few years. Building something that spins at crazy RPMs while being baked by turbo heat and maintains electrical insulation while remaining light is apparently quite tricky!
I believe that the simple answer is to have one manufacturer build a single spec MGU-H that all teams use, as Formula One already does with the engine controller.

The simple answer to that is to just get rid of hybrid systems. The auto industry is going to pass F1 by (autonomous electric). Let it. Don't make it about the auto industry. Go back to what made it great - NA engines that sound glorious, manual transmissions, and let it be about driver skill.
 
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Re: Active Safety in Cars: What's good?

Sat Jan 20, 2018 12:43 am

Vhalidictes wrote:
I feel like there's something wrong with me saying this, but... for a high-performance car, wouldn't a supercharger be a better idea?

Sure a Turbo isn't always-on, but fuel economy for a Corvette just seems like a lost cause compared to dealing with turbo lag.

I'm not really sure what you're asking.

A properly designed turbo setup has very little boost lag - and many times can help ease traction in very high horsepower motors. Even the little 1.6L motor in my kit car (with a GT2560R turbo) spools faster than I can punch my foot to the floor as long as I've kept the revs over 2800 or so. Fuel economy in modern Corvettes is a hell of a lot better than you'd imagine - I average in the low to mid 30s with an 80 MPH cruise the way the car runs now. A supercharger would hurt that a reasonable amount, a properly setup turbo (or pair of them) wouldn't change much at all.

I used to think turbo lag was a huge problem but if you design things properly (turbine size, compressor size, cam timing/overlap, etc) it really isn't hard to make a car feel like it has a huge engine when it doesn't.

Superchargers, while fun, aren't as efficient nor can they adapt to different altitudes as you drive. The throttle response is great, but I'll take a hint of lag for better performance overall.
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synthtel2
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Re: Active Safety in Cars: What's good?

Sat Jan 20, 2018 2:36 am

End User wrote:

It certainly isn't impossible to get that kind of precision out of a big turbo engine, it's just a lot tougher and likely runs the price even further up. That's why I said "almost". As a feat of engineering, it's cool to see that Mercedes is doing it (I wasn't aware they were).

End User wrote:
That's why you do more than one pass. :) You really need to think ahead to have fun.

Not good enough. Despite lots of theory to the contrary, the magnitude of the consequences is very very dependent on how deep your pockets are.

End User wrote:
Did I say you could'nt? No. My fav car will always be my tweaked ZX3.

Sorry, that was a subtle communication error, carry on.

End User wrote:
You previously mumbled something about not being able to use a GT3 to its full potential. I was replying to that and I gave you a ton of examples where you easily could. You are very finicky.

If I had a GT3, I still wouldn't be able to have that much more fun with it than what I've got now, and certainly not enough to offset the fuel, insurance, etc.
 
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Re: Active Safety in Cars: What's good?

Sat Jan 20, 2018 12:53 pm

synthtel2 wrote:
End User wrote:
That's why you do more than one pass. :) You really need to think ahead to have fun.

Not good enough. Despite lots of theory to the contrary, the magnitude of the consequences is very very dependent on how deep your pockets are.

And that is why I did not ask you to join me on my trip to through the Alps.

synthtel2 wrote:
If I had a GT3, I still wouldn't be able to have that much more fun with it than what I've got now

Then why did you buy the GT3 in the first place? :P
 
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Re: Active Safety in Cars: What's good?

Sat Jan 20, 2018 1:00 pm

Turbo cars are a mixed bag. The AMG GT R sounds amazing and has tremendous performance with next to no lag. The latest Caymens and 911 Carreras are rightly criticized for sounding like sh.t compared to the previous gen NA cars - enough so that the bump in mid-range punch is not enough to make up for the aural dismay that is their exhaust note. Current turbo F1 cars sound utterly terrible.
 
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Re: Active Safety in Cars: What's good?

Sat Jan 20, 2018 1:16 pm

Why do you want your car to make more noise? That doesn't make it go any faster. Is it just to annoy others or draw attention?
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Re: Active Safety in Cars: What's good?

Sat Jan 20, 2018 1:38 pm

JustAnEngineer wrote:
Why do you want your car to make more noise? That doesn't make it go any faster. Is it just to annoy others or draw attention?


I think they're talking about the kind of noise not the loudness of noise.

Although it's highly entertaining every time my coworker's heavily modified Firebird sets off every nearby car alarm every time he starts it.
 
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Re: Active Safety in Cars: What's good?

Sat Jan 20, 2018 1:39 pm

JustAnEngineer wrote:
Why do you want your car to make more noise? That doesn't make it go any faster. Is it just to annoy others or draw attention?

Thank you for asking this question! :D

Speaking only for myself, it is not just noise for the sake of noise. Nor is it to annoy, nor is it to draw attention. A great exhaust note is a joy to hear. A great exhaust note is an art form. The exhaust note is for me, not for you. It stirs MY soul. The engine is speaking to me. I'm not looking for your attention.

A great exhaust note has as much an impact on me as the sound of a newborn child to their parents. :P

I am glad that modern performance cars have valved exhausts. With my upcoming summer car I fully intend on using the quiet exhaust setting to avoid the ire of someone such as yourself. Someone who does not understand. Once on the open road I'll switch it to the loud setting and have at it so get the heck out of the passing lane. :)
 
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Re: Active Safety in Cars: What's good?

Sat Jan 20, 2018 4:25 pm

Vhalidictes wrote:
JustAnEngineer wrote:
Why do you want your car to make more noise? That doesn't make it go any faster. Is it just to annoy others or draw attention?
I think they're talking about the kind of noise not the loudness of noise.

Ferrari V12
Mazda 4-rotor
Audi Quattro Killer B
The insanity called Can-Am

I could go on for days, though I must admit a special fondness for Can-Am. It was the last time the "rules" we so (intentionally) "imprecise".
What we have today is way too much pluribus and not enough unum.
 
JustAnEngineer
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Re: Active Safety in Cars: What's good?

Sat Jan 20, 2018 4:35 pm

If you're childish enough to be thrilled by loud noises that sound like old-technology motors, you'll be happy with the synthesized engine noises that come through the sound systems of many modern "sports" cars. It doesn't appeal to me at all.

If your budget doesn't stretch to a BMW with fake piped-in sound, you can add your own to whatever you're driving today:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b9XAC-BvUyo
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Re: Active Safety in Cars: What's good?

Sat Jan 20, 2018 4:45 pm

JustAnEngineer wrote:
If you're childish enough to be thrilled by loud noises that sound like old-technology motors

First time I've been called childish in quite some time and, at least on this subject, I'll proudly wear the badge. I REVEL in the sound of "old technology" motors. A major portion of the visceral appreciation I have for certain cars comes solely in how they sound as they go past. To an engineer, that's wasted energy, which I understand. I don't care; I want the sound (and let's not even get into aircraft engines, specifically the Merlin), though I do agree that piped-in is an abomination (a combination of better cabin noise suppression and continually-lowered limits on acceptable external drive-by volumes).

Assuming you ever did own a Ferrari, you'd want it to be as quiet as a Prius?
What we have today is way too much pluribus and not enough unum.
 
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Re: Active Safety in Cars: What's good?

Sat Jan 20, 2018 5:10 pm

The green guys are fighting.
 
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Re: Active Safety in Cars: What's good?

Sat Jan 20, 2018 5:11 pm

JustAnEngineer wrote:
you'll be happy with the synthesized engine noises that come through the sound systems of many modern "sports" cars.

No

No

No

Worst invention ever! So Sad!
 
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Re: Active Safety in Cars: What's good?

Sat Jan 20, 2018 5:18 pm

JustAnEngineer wrote:
If you're childish enough to be thrilled by loud noises

If you don't think this engine is an aural treat then you are definitely not a car person. That car is pure art.
 
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Re: Active Safety in Cars: What's good?

Sat Jan 20, 2018 6:06 pm

End User wrote:
DPete27 wrote:
Lane Departure Warning: Pointless. I always turn that off. Pointless and annoying.

I actually like this one for long boring drives.

that's what the shoulder rumble strip is for. :lol:
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Re: Active Safety in Cars: What's good?

Sun Jan 21, 2018 11:45 am

End User wrote:
The green guys are fighting.


But we all know who won. Repeat after me: "There is no replacement..."
 
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Re: Active Safety in Cars: What's good?

Sun Jan 21, 2018 12:32 pm

JustAnEngineer wrote:
If you're childish enough to be thrilled by loud noises that sound like old-technology motors, you'll be happy with the synthesized engine noises that come through the sound systems of many modern "sports" cars. It doesn't appeal to me at all.

If your budget doesn't stretch to a BMW with fake piped-in sound, you can add your own to whatever you're driving today:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b9XAC-BvUyo

Nonononono.

That's the first thing we removed on my wife's car once we realized it had one. There's nothing more satisfying than a well tuned more burbling along.
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Re: Active Safety in Cars: What's good?

Sun Jan 21, 2018 2:33 pm

It's amazing how the 4-rotor Wankel sounds, when the usual 2-rotor with a loud exhaust has simply the most annoying, cacophonous buzzy-bees sound of any ICE. I do have to say though, that unless it's a manual transmission where the engine note sort of serves an an auditory tachometer so you don't need to look down, engine sounds do not have any practical purpose except to please the customer and their passengers. That's why so many of them nowadays are fake and piped in via the stereo--it's just cheaper to create pleasant sounds this way, especially considering how today's CVTs would cause a constant-rpm motorboat drone otherwise.


Back to the original topic, I've had automatic braking nearly cause rear-end accidents when it went into maximum anti-lock from a plastic bag blowing across the freeway. Such brake checking would be considered aggressive driving and put you at fault unless your insurance company bothers to decode your black box to prove you didn't do it. This is a feature where the more different types of sensors used: camera, laser, radar--the better.

If you drive where there are many bicyclists or potholes, be aware that lane-keeping causes many odd tugs and pulls on the steering wheel as you exit your lane to go around them safely, unless you signal every time. It seems the car would rather you stayed in your lane and then automatic braked to the speed of the bicyclist.

The forward collision warning seems to go off all of the time, especially when using regen braking instead of the brakes, as a closing speed of 10mph is not at all unusual when pulling up to cars stopped at a light. Some cars even flash the brake lights repeatedly whenever this occurs, as if it were a real emergency. It also seems to go off when there are parked cars on the side of a curved road and the system is too dumb to notice you won't be driving straight at them for long. Unlike the steering wheel though, nobody seems to implement force-feedback to push back up on the gas pedal--it's just flashing lights and a warning tone.

The feature with the largest performance difference between brands is the smart cruise control. Some can do stop-and-go traffic, others will stop and require you to goose the gas pedal to get moving again each time, and the worst will stop and deactivate the cruise control.

All this adds up to it probably being a long time until software for Level 5 fully self-driving cars will become viable.
 
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Re: Active Safety in Cars: What's good?

Sun Jan 21, 2018 5:29 pm

To me it should be an all or nothing. Either no human aids beyond maybe adaptive cruise control, or fully computer driven with no human input. Anything beyond the the former just encourages bad human drivning and is wholly unnecessary.
 
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Re: Active Safety in Cars: What's good?

Sun Jan 21, 2018 6:23 pm

Usacomp2k3 wrote:
To me it should be an all or nothing. Either no human aids beyond maybe adaptive cruise control, or fully computer driven with no human input. Anything beyond the the former just encourages bad human drivning and is wholly unnecessary.

I agree completely.
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Re: Active Safety in Cars: What's good?

Sun Jan 21, 2018 6:51 pm

Usacomp2k3 wrote:
To me it should be an all or nothing. Either no human aids beyond maybe adaptive cruise control, or fully computer driven with no human input. Anything beyond the the former just encourages bad human drivning and is wholly unnecessary.
... and programmers should use just assembly code because higher level abstraction encourages bad human coding and is wholly unnecessary? :lol:
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Re: Active Safety in Cars: What's good?

Sun Jan 21, 2018 7:06 pm

Get an orange.
 
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Re: Active Safety in Cars: What's good?

Sun Jan 21, 2018 7:13 pm

Vhalidictes wrote:
End User wrote:
The green guys are fighting.
But we all know who won. Repeat after me: "There is no replacement..."
Ned's the one driving the 2 L turbo four. My 3½ L normally aspirated V6 revs to 6900 rpm if you call on it. When I do call on it, it's because I want the car to accelerate, not because I care much about how it sounds while doing so.
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Re: Active Safety in Cars: What's good?

Sun Jan 21, 2018 7:16 pm

End User wrote:
Get an orange.
The turpenes in the orange peel will likely damage the leather.
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Re: Active Safety in Cars: What's good?

Sun Jan 21, 2018 7:19 pm

JustAnEngineer wrote:
End User wrote:
Get an orange.
The turpenes in the orange peel will likely damage the leather.

Good point.
 
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Re: Active Safety in Cars: What's good?

Mon Jan 22, 2018 9:20 am

Waco wrote:
Usacomp2k3 wrote:
To me it should be an all or nothing. Either no human aids beyond maybe adaptive cruise control, or fully computer driven with no human input. Anything beyond the the former just encourages bad human drivning and is wholly unnecessary.

I agree completely.
Looking at aircraft crashes suggests this is a good idea.

As a background, there are 5 different ADAS levels, see the diagram at http://www.videantis.com/its-not-about- ... there.html for an idea of what these are.

The concern is with Levels 2 and 3. Level 2 is where Tesla's Autopilot system is currently - it will drive but you are meant to be watching it like a hawk because it can screw up and try and kill you. That's why there are sensors that people are trying to fool with that orange trick. In Level 3 you don't need to watch it, but you do need to be ready to take over when it decides it can't cope and hands the car back to you.

A common theme in a lot of recent aircraft crashes is the autopilot or autothrottle is doing one thing and the pilot thinks it is doing another e.g. OZ214, or the autopilot gives up and hands control of the aircraft back to the pilot who isn't really ready for it and does the wrong thing e.g. AF447. These are professional pilots who are trained and regularly tested on the use of these systems, and they still get it wrong.

We now want to give those systems to people who have no idea what these systems are doing, what the capabilities are, and are busy doing things like the orange trick so that they can watch movies instead of ensuring that the computer is getting it right? :o
 
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Re: Active Safety in Cars: What's good?

Mon Jan 22, 2018 8:35 pm

I just ordered my Camaro SS 1LE and I upgraded to the package that has blind spot monitoring (2SS). The drivers side is fine (better than my 2012 GLI) but the passenger side rear quarter in the Camaro is a black hole.
 
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Re: Active Safety in Cars: What's good?

Mon Jan 22, 2018 8:46 pm

Usacomp2k3 wrote:
To me it should be an all or nothing. Either no human aids beyond maybe adaptive cruise control, or fully computer driven with no human input. Anything beyond the the former just encourages bad human drivning and is wholly unnecessary.

Performance cars with systems designed to give the driver numerous levels of assistance are really cool. In particular a custom mode that allows a mix and match of settings - soft suspension/heavier steering/quick throttle response/moderate stability control/minimum traction control/loud exhaust/etc.
 
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Re: Active Safety in Cars: What's good?

Wed Mar 21, 2018 3:20 pm

So after ogling at specs and reviews for the past few months I think my current short list is:

  • 2018 Hyundai Elantra Limited
  • 2018 Honda Accord EX
  • 2018 Hyundai Ioniq SEL
  • 2018 Kia Niro EX

I know these are all totally different classes of cars, but they each have front AND rear active safety, good reviews, decent gas mileage, and either an Japanese reputation or Korean warranty.

I have this ridiculous spreadsheet which also compares the above to the Forte/Forte5, Sonata, Fit, Impreza, Civic, and a couple PHEV models. Unfortunately I've only found one or two articles that detail the active safety nuances in as much detail as I'd like. Here's one of them: https://www.techradar.com/reviews/car-t ... 6/review/2

Now the question is whether will my little Versa last until the 2019 models land, and the 2018 models drop in price (or maybe something shiny is coming in 2019 that I don't know about yet). Hooray cars.
 
End User
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Re: Active Safety in Cars: What's good?

Wed Mar 21, 2018 3:23 pm

I don’t see anything from AMG.

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