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drfish
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Re: I got a delivery last night...

Wed Sep 19, 2018 7:10 am

Looking good. :)
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SecretSquirrel
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Re: I got a delivery last night...

Thu Sep 20, 2018 7:57 am

I didn't get to finish it last night as I got tied up with some other stuff. I did get some work done though.

LCD parts...
Image

The LCD step takes all of about 10 minutes to complete.
Image

Image

Next up was the heat bed.
Image

Its not nearly as difficult as the extruder, but the high strength magnets embedded in the bed can get a bit annoying after a while. The hex wrench was partially magnetized by the time I was done.
Image

I also mounted the power supply.
Image

Image

Tonight is the final electronics installation and preflight check.
 
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Re: I got a delivery last night...

Thu Sep 20, 2018 4:17 pm

Any chance I could have you make me a smaller than a postage stamp and about an eighth of an inch thick part for a price, if I can get you a copy of the original engineering drawing?
[img]http://[/img] Image
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drfish
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Re: I got a delivery last night...

Thu Sep 20, 2018 4:55 pm

farmpuma wrote:
Any chance I could have you make me a smaller than a postage stamp and about an eighth of an inch thick part for a price, if I can get you a copy of the original engineering drawing?


And so it begins... :)
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SecretSquirrel
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Re: I got a delivery last night...

Fri Sep 21, 2018 11:22 am

Main control board and housing....

Image

I did not, however get everything done last night. It's still a mess of cables....

Image

Image

This isn't a hard step, I'm just rather particular and neat when it comes to wiring and such things. Should finish it up this evening. It's supposed to rain all weekend here so there will be much playing with the printer, in between efforts to clean the house up.

--SS
 
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Re: I got a delivery last night...

Fri Sep 21, 2018 11:41 am

That's gotta be the most complex/difficult assembly I've ever seen on a consumer item. They'd be correct to assume anyone buying their product is going to be a very advanced user, but geez.
 
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Re: I got a delivery last night...

Fri Sep 21, 2018 12:13 pm

The Egg wrote:
That's gotta be the most complex/difficult assembly I've ever seen on a consumer item. They'd be correct to assume anyone buying their product is going to be a very advanced user, but geez.


Complex yes, difficult no. So far, anyone who played with erector sets or legos could put one of these things together. I got the kit because I like building things, especially stuff that does something. If I were buying more than one, of if I didn't get enjoyment out of the assembly part, I would highly recommend getting the assembled version. The $150 price difference is well worth it for the assembled version. I've probably got about five hours in it so far.

--SS
 
drfish
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Re: I got a delivery last night...

Fri Sep 21, 2018 12:15 pm

There's a reason that it costs so much less to buy the kit, heh. I would buy the kit too, just to be confident that I could repair any problem I came up against down the road.

The instructions and phenomenal, though: https://manual.prusa3d.com/c/Original_P ... t_assembly
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SecretSquirrel
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Re: I got a delivery last night...

Fri Sep 21, 2018 12:22 pm

drfish wrote:
There's a reason that it costs so much less to buy the kit, heh. I would buy the kit too, just to be confident that I could repair any problem I came up against down the road.

The instructions and phenomenal, though: https://manual.prusa3d.com/c/Original_P ... t_assembly


Yes, I have been quite impressed with the instructions. It's one of the reasons I described the assembly as complex but not difficult. So far, I haven't run into anything that wasn't explained either in text, pictures, or both.

--SS
 
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Re: I got a delivery last night...

Fri Sep 21, 2018 3:35 pm

SecretSquirrel wrote:
drfish wrote:
There's a reason that it costs so much less to buy the kit, heh. I would buy the kit too, just to be confident that I could repair any problem I came up against down the road.

The instructions and phenomenal, though: https://manual.prusa3d.com/c/Original_P ... t_assembly


Yes, I have been quite impressed with the instructions. It's one of the reasons I described the assembly as complex but not difficult. So far, I haven't run into anything that wasn't explained either in text, pictures, or both.

--SS

This was also my experience in building my Prusa. It's actually one of the major reasons I went with ordering from them - for me, excellent documentation and support are worth paying extra over their competitors, or for a much less expensive clone.

Also, I think my total build time was 7 or 8 hours, so your 5 hours so far sounds just right.
 
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Re: I got a delivery last night...

Sat Sep 22, 2018 9:53 am

Got the main electronics complete and all tidied up.
Image

Image

With that, the build is complete. Before I started calibration, I wanted to check the tightness of the U bolts that hold the print bed frame to the linear bearings on the Y axis. Doing so requires removing the heat bed. Not a big deal, or so I thought. I ended up having to drill out the head of the front left screw. It had seized up and I couldn't get it loose. Ended up striping out the head of the screw before giving up and getting out the drill. Luckily the kit ships with lots of extra screws. I learned something though. There is significant variation in the size of the M13x12b screw heads used to hold the heat bed to the frame. In order for the print bed to lay flat, the screw head has to be recessed slightly into the heat bed. Some of the screws simply wouldn't go in far enough due to the size of the screw head. I am guessing that the front left on I had to drill out was just a hair too big and when I tightened it down enough to get it recessed, the extra friction effectively seized the head in place. Once I drilled out the screw, I could twist the shaft from the frame with my fingers, so it wasn't like I cross threaded it or anything. In the entire assembly, that's really the only problem I had.

I checked the U bolt tightness -- you don't want them too tight or they could distort the linear bearings -- and put everything back together.

First power up.
Image

Going through self test.
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The next thing is does is XYZ calibration. I didn't take a picture, but it failed -- repeatedly, even after adjusting the PINDA probe. As as aside, the PINDA probe is an induction sensor that is used for positioning. To google I went and after reading a few posts on similar failures, I stumbled on the problem. I had installed the hot-end wrong. When the system is doing Z calibration, it moves to the top of the Z axis and stalls both motors to ensure it is at maximum travel. Then it moves towards the print bed. It is counting the steps and watching the PINDA output. When the PINDA probe says it has reached the print bed, but the step count is wrong, it fails calibration. Because of the way the hot-end is shaped, you can install it wrong if you aren't paying attention. When installed wrong, the hot-end extends an extra centimeter or so below the extruder cover, instead of sitting flush, as in this picture.

Image

This means that you have to mount the PINDA probe much lower in the holder and so the system fails Z axis calibration because it doesn't have enough travel in the Z axis. Totally my fault for not looking closer at the picture in the E-axis construction steps. When I went back and looked, it was obvious I had done it wrong. Kudos to Prusa for having a diagnostic routine that catches such a problem. My one complaint is that the error message could have included text noting that Z axis calibration was failing due to lack of Z axis travel.

I took the print head partially apart and properly installed the hot-end. Luckily it didn't have to be removed from the X-axis to do so.

Now it passes calibration with flying colors.
Image

Starting the first print.
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I printed the Prusa logo as the first sample print. It's what was suggested and being a fairly simple print, no harm if it screws up. It came out looking pretty good.
Image

Image

I need to do some bed level calibration as there is a bit of variation across the first layer, though its not horrid (kinda hard to see in the image)
Image

All-in-all, I'm quite pleased with how things turned out so far. It's been printing the castle model that comes on the SD card overnight so that I can see how it's doing for fine detail. So far, it looks quite good and tweaking the bed offsets may be all that is I have to do. Time to get out the CAD software as I have a couple of custom enclosures and mounts I need to do.

--SS
 
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Re: I got a delivery last night...

Sat Sep 22, 2018 3:18 pm

I, too, have been eyeballing the Prusa i3s for a while. I'll be interested to know what you think of it in a few months, when the honeymoon phase winds down.
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drfish
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Re: I got a delivery last night...

Sat Sep 22, 2018 4:13 pm

I still can't believe SecretSquirrel is writing one of my future articles for me, going to have to rethink a bit, heh. Seriously though, thank you for this thread, it's perfect. :)
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Re: I got a delivery last night...

Sat Sep 22, 2018 4:37 pm

Forge wrote:
I, too, have been eyeballing the Prusa i3s for a while. I'll be interested to know what you think of it in a few months, when the honeymoon phase winds down.

I'm three months in on mine, now, and I still think it's a great machine. It's reliable, it has excellent documentation, the prints come out looking as they're supposed to, and it has excellent and active continuing support for the manufacturer (which reminds me, new firmware came out this week that I need to install).
 
SecretSquirrel
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Re: I got a delivery last night...

Sat Sep 22, 2018 6:00 pm

drfish wrote:
I still can't believe SecretSquirrel is writing one of my future articles for me, going to have to rethink a bit, heh. Seriously though, thank you for this thread, it's perfect. :)


It's called community involvement. :lol:

--SS
 
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Re: I got a delivery last night...

Sat Sep 22, 2018 6:09 pm

Forge wrote:
I, too, have been eyeballing the Prusa i3s for a while. I'll be interested to know what you think of it in a few months, when the honeymoon phase winds down.


Mine is going to get very heavy use for the next couple of months. Beyond the various structural things I need for projects, I've got at least airplanes I need to print. They are actually one of the reasons I finally sprung for the printer. Little things I can send to my local library for printing. They charge by weight and it's pretty reasonable. However, printing a 1.9m Corsair is a bit beyond what they can do. For those wondering what the heck I'm talking about....

https://3dlabprint.com/shop/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tvs3yvEcARA

I'm currently printing 973mm Spitfire. It comes as a "ready to print" model with the printer. I think I have most of the electronics for it, though I'm printing it as much as a display piece as a flyable model -- I'm printing it in clear.

I'm thinking I'm going to get myself the multi-material upgrade for Christmas. ;)

--SS
 
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Re: I got a delivery last night...

Sat Sep 22, 2018 6:10 pm

I adjusted the bed leveling (will post pictures later). The first layer is now much more uniform across the print. It's not perfect yet, but it may be "close enough".

--SS
 
drfish
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Re: I got a delivery last night...

Sun Sep 23, 2018 7:41 am

How did I know that the YouTube link would go to a FliteTest video? :)

I have essentially no RC experience, but I've been super tempted to try one of their foam-board builds to get my feet wet.
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SecretSquirrel
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Re: My thoughts on the Prusa I3 MK3 3d printer kit

Sun Sep 23, 2018 2:09 pm

Note: I changed the original topic to something a bit more descriptive...

I mentioned I had done some work on the bed leveling offsets. Here is a series of first layer prints that show the progression. Top to bottom, with the bottom two unfortunately out of order. The second from the bottom is what I currently have set.

Image

The above image links to a much larger version that shows the variation much better. If I remember correctly, I ended up with a -20um offset on the left and +10um on the right. The printer firmware has offsets for left, right, front, and back. If I remember correctly, the overall Z offset is -0.760mm. That really just accounts for the offset in my mounting of the PINDA probe.

If you look at the high res image and zoom in, you can see that the second from the bottom is still not perfect. The infill is complete across the entire print, but the little pinholes you see, where the infill meets the boundary layers, shrink and disappear from left to right. I need to create a full bed, X-Y cross that is a single layer thick and run a print to get a better idea of the actual variation. The rectangles in the above are just the first layer of the Prusa logo sample print an are about 9cm, centered on the X axis.

Since I finally got around to uploading it, here is a short video of the initial print I did of the Prusa logo I did a while back.

https://youtu.be/xYT711bih0U

--SS
 
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Re: My thoughts on the Prusa I3 MK3 3d printer kit

Sun Sep 23, 2018 2:24 pm

Now, I am not one to take things "slow". So, rather than run off to Thingverse to find some random things to print, I jump to one of the most difficult items I'll print on this printer.

Image

Image

Image

That is half wing for the 973mm Spitfire MK XVI from 3D LabPrint, printer in Crystal Clear PLA. The surfaces are a single layer. It is printed as a single job, in four segments, oriented vertically.

Image

Image

You can just make out the print time on the LCD in the last picture -- 11 hours 6 minutes. Printing these pieces will highlight any issues the printer has. The lower panel has a section near the trailing edge where the layers blobbed a bit, giving the skin a little bit of a rough texture. I'll probably sand it slightly there. The second panel warped at the joint with the first, probably due to poor adhesion. These prints were done without any further treatment to the stock, smooth PEI covered spring steel print sheet. With a single layer wall thickness, bed adhesion is certainly tenuous at best. I went to remove the sheet after the print completed and all four segments just popped off when I flex one corner of the sheet. I'm printing the other half of the wing now and if I have any warping there, I'll see about treating the sheet for the reprints.

Here is a video of the printer working on the wing panels.

https://youtu.be/sn32apU5GoQ

--SS
 
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Re: My thoughts on the Prusa I3 MK3 3d printer kit

Sun Sep 23, 2018 2:32 pm

While I was typing up my prior post, this landed in my inbox.

INTRODUCING ORIGINAL PRUSA SL1

OPEN SOURCE SLA 3D PRINTER BY JOSEF PRUSA

Resin 3D printing was always done at premium prices and by big corporations. We may not wear suits, but we have an incredible amount of new ideas and we are willing to work our asses off, which is something corporations usually lack.
The SL1 isn’t trying to compete with the flimsy Photon or with the ultra-pricey Form but instead I want it to be the MK3 of the resin world – have the best print quality, convenient design and features, ease of use and other things, while keep a price accessible for an everyday hobby maker.


https://www.prusaprinters.org/introduci ... -123538153

Luckily (for the credit card) I have no immediate use for a resin based printer at this point. Now, if they would just engineer up a > 3-axis desktop mill, I might just have to buy one of those....

--SS
 
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Re: My thoughts on the Prusa I3 MK3 3d printer kit

Sun Sep 23, 2018 4:44 pm

Color me intrigued--I'm in the market for a high-resolution printer. I put together a LittleRP kit a couple of years ago, very easy to do but the print quality wasn't great with a random projector and good resin availability has been problematic. Kind of like a circa 2012 Prusa Mendel, really, and I want something more production ready.

Some general thoughts on resin printing, for anyone interested (the usual I-don't-speak-for-SSYS disclaimer applies, but this isn't FDM/PJ so I'll go into more details):

-As the article says, there are three basic types of resin printing. True SLA, DLP, and LCD. Laser-based SLA has a fixed feature size and variable XY build area, DLP has feature size that scales proportionally with XY, LCD has fixed XY and feature size. There's also top down and bottom up w.r.t. where the curing happens in the vat, but just about everything under $20k is bottom up so I won't go into details there. Prusa SL1 is a bottom up LCD system.

-Outside of Formlabs and the pro grade stuff, resin software has been a complete disaster. If slic3r is being enhanced to support LCD this will be a huge deal, both for the Prusa machine and for others that want to borrow the software package. Part orientation and support generation are the biggest stumbling blocks, that works totally different from FDM.

-The early attempts at LCD printing are known for having a limited list of compatible resins due to a narrow light spectrum coming from the UV LEDs. I'd want to know more about what resins and their recommended curing wavelengths have been tested before making a purchase.

-Resin is nasty stuff. I"m not talking 'herp derp stilted statistics suggest a vague possibility that lots of ABS fumes are bad' type media fearmongering, I mean this stuff is really not good for your health. Wear gloves when handling resin and wet parts and keep the printer in a well ventilated area, and everything will be fine.

-The LCD module should be treated like a long lasting consumable, with a lifetime similar to a DLP lamp. They aren't expensive due to the mass manufacture of smartphones, Prusa just needs to have thought about this and made it relatively easy to source a replacement and swap it out. Confirm before buying anything.

-FEP is cheaper and less hassle to work with than PDMS. Usually it's more calibration work than PDMS, but Prusa seems to have thought about this and seeks to mitigate the most obvious problems with a tilt function.

-Cured resins are never as strong as real thermoplastics, and most of them start to deform at relatively low temperatures. That isn't an automatic dealbreaker, just be aware that FDM and SLA, and their various derivatives, are complimentary technologies with different strengths.


All in all, it's a compelling feature set with a few questions about third party resin compatibility. Personally I'll probably wait for the second generation when all the kinks have been worked out but it's nice to see some movement in the low-end resin world.


edit: About that pesky wallet problem of yours... http://www.pocketnc.com

I've never seen one in person or heard good/bad feedback from an actual user, so I don't know how good it is and the work area is unpleasantly small. If it was me doing it, for $5k I'd either build my own or wait a few more years for the low-end CNC guys to quit fooling around with 3 axis and make something interesting.
 
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Re: My thoughts on the Prusa I3 MK3 3d printer kit

Sun Sep 23, 2018 5:19 pm

NovusBogus wrote:

edit: About that pesky wallet problem of yours... http://www.pocketnc.com

I've never seen one in person or heard good/bad feedback from an actual user, so I don't know how good it is and the work area is unpleasantly small. If it was me doing it, for $5k I'd either build my own or wait a few more years for the low-end CNC guys to quit fooling around with 3 axis and make something interesting.


For $5k, I'll go buy a nice mill with digital readout for the shop and the tooling to go with it and do it the old fashioned way. :D

--SS
 
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Re: My thoughts on the Prusa I3 MK3 3d printer kit

Sun Sep 23, 2018 5:40 pm

SecretSquirrel wrote:

OPEN SOURCE SLA 3D PRINTER BY JOSEF PRUSA




The problem with this is the price. The *Anycubic Photon, with a very similar design and build volume, is less than $500. Unlike your printer (when compared to other FDM printers), there doesn't seem to be enough innovation with this design to justify the x3 price (..of the Photon). Of course that innovation might change over time, but I think they are "getting out of the gate" here with a substantive disadvantage.

I'd have rather seen them do a super-sized (vastly larger build volume) of the FDM printer. (..and multiple simultaneous heads, and a camera scanning system for orchestration.)



-it is ironic though, as soon as I saw your printed wings (where it's a parts assembly) - I automatically thought of SLA. (..and then scrolled down and read this post). :lol:


*Photon review:
https://youtu.be/5YrUQOYLoK0?t=92

(..pay particular attention to the unfinished model, and how it was finished - in relation to a parts assembly.)
 
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Re: My thoughts on the Prusa I3 MK3 3d printer kit

Sun Sep 23, 2018 9:53 pm

SecretSquirrel wrote:
You can just make out the print time on the LCD in the last picture -- 11 hours 6 minutes. Printing these pieces will highlight any issues the printer has. The lower panel has a section near the trailing edge where the layers blobbed a bit, giving the skin a little bit of a rough texture. I'll probably sand it slightly there. The second panel warped at the joint with the first, probably due to poor adhesion. These prints were done without any further treatment to the stock, smooth PEI covered spring steel print sheet. With a single layer wall thickness, bed adhesion is certainly tenuous at best. I went to remove the sheet after the print completed and all four segments just popped off when I flex one corner of the sheet. I'm printing the other half of the wing now and if I have any warping there, I'll see about treating the sheet for the reprints.


The second wing showed exactly the same warping that the first one did. With both wings printed, you could also tell there was some warping in the first wing panel at the wing root. After doing some reading on the 3DLabPrint forum, it seems this is exceedingly common on the MK3. The beading on the trailing edge of the lower two panels is due to the long moves between parts combined with a small retract value, allowing a small bead to form on the extruder. Apparently, printing the panels one at a time makes them go away. I'm printing fuselage parts right now. We'll see how they come out. I'll probably sand the PEI sheet lightly and drop the first layer height a bit and try printing just one of the lower wing panels to see if I can get better adhesion.

--SS
 
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Re: My thoughts on the Prusa I3 MK3 3d printer kit

Sun Sep 23, 2018 10:09 pm

CScottG wrote:
SecretSquirrel wrote:

OPEN SOURCE SLA 3D PRINTER BY JOSEF PRUSA




The problem with this is the price. The *Anycubic Photon, with a very similar design and build volume, is less than $500. Unlike your printer (when compared to other FDM printers), there doesn't seem to be enough innovation with this design to justify the x3 price (..of the Photon). Of course that innovation might change over time, but I think they are "getting out of the gate" here with a substantive disadvantage.

I'd have rather seen them do a super-sized (vastly larger build volume) of the FDM printer. (..and multiple simultaneous heads, and a camera scanning system for orchestration.)

I don't disagree. While this is my first printer, I've been closely following the technology since its infancy. I have no need for the fine detail that you can get from a resin based printer, and as others have pointed out, resin based printing is not nearly as user friendly from a materials perspective. Now, if I were doing miniatures or other castings and using the print as the inital master for casting, I could definitely see the point.

--SS


-it is ironic though, as soon as I saw your printed wings (where it's a parts assembly) - I automatically thought of SLA. (..and then scrolled down and read this post). :lol:


*Photon review:
https://youtu.be/5YrUQOYLoK0?t=92

(..pay particular attention to the unfinished model, and how it was finished - in relation to a parts assembly.)
 
SecretSquirrel
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Re: My thoughts on the Prusa I3 MK3 3d printer kit

Sun Sep 23, 2018 10:10 pm

SecretSquirrel wrote:
CScottG wrote:
SecretSquirrel wrote:

OPEN SOURCE SLA 3D PRINTER BY JOSEF PRUSA




The problem with this is the price. The *Anycubic Photon, with a very similar design and build volume, is less than $500. Unlike your printer (when compared to other FDM printers), there doesn't seem to be enough innovation with this design to justify the x3 price (..of the Photon). Of course that innovation might change over time, but I think they are "getting out of the gate" here with a substantive disadvantage.

I'd have rather seen them do a super-sized (vastly larger build volume) of the FDM printer. (..and multiple simultaneous heads, and a camera scanning system for orchestration.)


I don't disagree. While this is my first printer, I've been closely following the technology since its infancy. I have no need for the fine detail that you can get from a resin based printer, and as others have pointed out, resin based printing is not nearly as user friendly from a materials perspective. Now, if I were doing miniatures or other castings and using the print as the inital master for casting, I could definitely see the point.

--SS
 
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Re: My thoughts on the Prusa I3 MK3 3d printer kit

Sun Sep 23, 2018 11:59 pm

SecretSquirrel wrote:
..Now, if I were doing miniatures or other castings and using the print as the inital master for casting, I could definitely see the point.

--SS


Note: this is in regard to printing parts for wings..

-the point I was trying (FAIL.. :oops: ) to make was that if you are "sectioning" the model itself for assembly then the size is somewhat moot (..it's more parts that need to be printed and assembled relative to a larger build volume, but that's not really a problem) - AND SLA gives you two added benefits to this process:

1. (obviously) substantially better print quality (..which has the benefit of creating thinner shells for something like wings).
2. using the very same resin (as the model) for joining the parts together (..with the same material property/characteristic).

also (not necessarily a benefit),
3. while the parts are going to be a lot smaller, you can stack multiple parts in the build volume (..relative to the amount of resin the printer can support in the bath vs that of the parts to be printed), with out any additional time (relative to z-height).



-of course material choices (with different mechanical properties) are exceedingly limited compared to FDM.

And most importantly in that context: the result may not have the mechanical property you are looking for with your wings. (..don't know - but I'm guessing with a thinner profile the result could be substantially better and offer a better range of support for a given weight).


-just a thought in the context of printing wings. :wink:
 
SecretSquirrel
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Re: My thoughts on the Prusa I3 MK3 3d printer kit

Mon Sep 24, 2018 7:06 am

CScottG wrote:
SecretSquirrel wrote:
..Now, if I were doing miniatures or other castings and using the print as the inital master for casting, I could definitely see the point.

--SS


Note: this is in regard to printing parts for wings..

-the point I was trying (FAIL.. :oops: ) to make was that if you are "sectioning" the model itself for assembly then the size is somewhat moot (..it's more parts that need to be printed and assembled relative to a larger build volume, but that's not really a problem) - AND SLA gives you two added benefits to this process:

1. (obviously) substantially better print quality (..which has the benefit of creating thinner shells for something like wings).
2. using the very same resin (as the model) for joining the parts together (..with the same material property/characteristic).

also (not necessarily a benefit),
3. while the parts are going to be a lot smaller, you can stack multiple parts in the build volume (..relative to the amount of resin the printer can support in the bath vs that of the parts to be printed), with out any additional time (relative to z-height).



-of course material choices (with different mechanical properties) are exceedingly limited compared to FDM.

And most importantly in that context: the result may not have the mechanical property you are looking for with your wings. (..don't know - but I'm guessing with a thinner profile the result could be substantially better and offer a better range of support for a given weight).


-just a thought in the context of printing wings. :wink:


Good points. I would argument that sectioning below a certain size might be somewhat problematic, especially for items that have very little structural content. The ability to "glue" with the same resin is a very nice feature though. The biggest problem with SLA for something like printing an RC plane is the mechanical properties of the resin. The rather brittle nature would cause problems for thin wall areas. Landings would be really rough... :)

Oh... and the resin.... as has been pointed out, its some pretty nasty stuff. The MSDS is an interesting read. It certainly reduces the WAF of a SLA printer drastically. :lol:

--SS
 
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Re: My thoughts on the Prusa I3 MK3 3d printer kit

Mon Sep 24, 2018 7:29 am

Only if she sees the MSDS! :lol:
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