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drfish
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The ultimate sump pump battery backup?

Fri Oct 26, 2018 9:53 am

Long story short, I want to step up my sump pump-game during power outages. I have a generator, but I want that to become my #2 option and I want my #1 option to be completely automatic and generally foolproof.

We have two Zoeller M98 sump pumps in our sump. I'm only looking to power one of them during a outage. Computer UPS units are out, everything I've read says they don't have what it takes, especially when it comes to the surge power on pump startup. So, based on my research, I need a beefy inverter, a deep-cycle 12v marine battery, and a battery maintainer.

My spare no expense picks are below:

4 Amp Battery Tender $65
Aims Power Green 1250W inverter $370
Optima D31M BlueTop battery $330

That rings up to $765! I would like to spare some expense!

Is my shopping list missing anything? Is the battery tender redundant when paired with that inverter? Can I run one of my pumps off the inverter/battery/tender 24/7 without harm? Or does the inverter handle charging the battery/running the pump when it has power and switches to drawing from the battery to run the pump when the power is out? What can I scale back? I don't mind paying more for additional battery capacity, as long as it scales about linearly, but is that battery overkill otherwise? Is the inverter completely overkill? How long does a battery like that typically last?

These are not things I play around with daily. Thanks in advance for being part of my research. :)
 
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Re: The ultimate sump pump battery backup?

Fri Oct 26, 2018 12:21 pm

We are using an integrated 'Basement Watchdog' system that has a DC pump as well as the AC pump.
This gives you a second pump for redundancy as well as being a DC motor so you avoid the power losses converting DC to AC.
I thought the whole thing ....especially their custom battery which I need to replace now...was a little overpriced. But, I needed a quick replacement and that's what I could get local.

I did see this unit by the same manufacturer as you linked:
https://www.amazon.com/Zoeller-508-0005 ... merReviews

I noticed it has a contact closure output to link to some other alarm or control system if it is activated. Guess I may look closer for myself if I need to do a future replacement.

Good luck. I hate water where it doesn't belong.
 
Waco
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Re: The ultimate sump pump battery backup?

Fri Oct 26, 2018 12:37 pm

Assuming perfect efficiency (which is obviously not possible), that battery will run that sump for just under 2.5 hours (closer to 2 through the inverter / motor losses). Is that enough to be useful?
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drfish
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Re: The ultimate sump pump battery backup?

Fri Oct 26, 2018 1:02 pm

Considering that it's likely to run 10 seconds every minute or so, even 1 hour would get me a pretty long way in a heavy storm. Under normal circumstances, that sounds like it could run for many hours since it would only switch on once every 10 minutes or so.

BTW, I already have a water-powered backup sump pump. In a long-term outage situation it would probably be fine for the normal drainage volume, but it can't keep up with heavy rain.
 
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Re: The ultimate sump pump battery backup?

Fri Oct 26, 2018 1:03 pm

Linked sump draws 9.4A
Linked battery provides 75AH (not sure what "total reserve capacity of 155 minutes" means)
That's 8 hours before converting losses and the inverter says 88% efficiency =7 hours
(I think I did that right?)
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Duct Tape Dude
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Re: The ultimate sump pump battery backup?

Fri Oct 26, 2018 1:21 pm

90% sure that won't pass home inspection, but I'm no doctor. https://www.nfpa.org/codes-and-standard ... il?code=70

Completely support your effort, but personally I'd just get a SumpJet, have it professionally installed, and call it a day. Our house has one and it's pretty neat.
 
drfish
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Re: The ultimate sump pump battery backup?

Fri Oct 26, 2018 1:55 pm

Duct Tape Dude wrote:
90% sure that won't pass home inspection, but I'm no doctor. https://www.nfpa.org/codes-and-standard ... il?code=70

Completely support your effort, but personally I'd just get a SumpJet, have it professionally installed, and call it a day. Our house has one and it's pretty neat.


I forgot to mention it in my first post, but I already have that exact water-powered backup pump. It can't keep up with heavy rain.

Regarding code, running a pump from an inverter sounds pretty mundane. What makes you think it would be frowned upon?
 
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Re: The ultimate sump pump battery backup?

Fri Oct 26, 2018 1:57 pm

DPete27 wrote:
Linked sump draws 9.4A
Linked battery provides 75AH (not sure what "total reserve capacity of 155 minutes" means)
That's 8 hours before converting losses and the inverter says 88% efficiency =7 hours
(I think I did that right?)

75 AH at 12 volts, not 75 AH at 120 volts.

I assumed perfect everything (1/2 HP motor, 372 watts), perfect inverter, and a 75 AH battery at 12 volts. That's (75 AH * 12 volts) / 372 watts ~= 2.4 hours. Throw in inefficiencies (like voltage drop over time, inverter inefficiency, and motor inefficiency) and you're looking at somewhere between 1 and 2 hours I believe.

It depends on the load on the motor, of course, but it's hard to calculate without assumptions. :P
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drfish
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Re: The ultimate sump pump battery backup?

Fri Oct 26, 2018 2:11 pm

I'll try to get some Kill A Watt numbers this weekend. I also talked to a friend at work and he suggested I consider plain old lead acid batteries to get more Amp hours for my buck. I'm not sure about the maintenance aspect of that concept though... :-?
 
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Re: The ultimate sump pump battery backup?

Fri Oct 26, 2018 2:17 pm

https://www.amazon.com/Zoeller-508-0005 ... +sump+pump

Unless you just really want to DIY, either add the above as a third pump, or replace one of the existing pumps.

--SS
 
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Re: The ultimate sump pump battery backup?

Fri Oct 26, 2018 2:21 pm

What you're trying to do is the miniature version of a large telecom or industrial UPS, which is part of my day job. Some combination of charger, battery system, and inverter/transfer switch are required and integrated according to the project needs. While there are multi-kW all-in-one UPS devices available, the cost is in the range of a good used car, and for heavier duties you're buying separate battery and charger systems regardless.

First, looks like your preferred inverter has a charger/conditioner, which means the additional conditioner isn't needed. But your inverter needs to momentarily supply about six times the run current in order to start the motor. Is it rated for that? Looks like it's designed for appliance duty and you've overspec'd it a bit relative to the load, so it might be fine. Dig into the specs before committing.

Second, you have a single sump pulling 0.5hp @ 115V. While 1.0 hp is nominally 746W, that's shaft mechanical output and the rule of thumb for estimating electrical load is around 1000W per hp. Figure 500W for one of yours. Or, get better numbers using the Kill-A-Watt.

Third, you do need a deep-cycle, sealed marine battery for this application, or you might even want two or three in parallel to increase your run-time. Conventional automotive lead acid might be cheaper but it will off-gas hydrogen (must ventilate) and if you run it dead in one event, it might never come back. Unfortunately a straight W-h calculation won't get you an accurate reserve calculation. Batteries respond very differently to differing load profiles. A single start and continuous run will give a different result than dozens of starts with short runs, especially with the inverter drawing a low-level load in the background between pump operations. For commercial UPS devices the vendors offer calculation methods that compare battery types and chemistries against an expected load profile. In your case, you might just try running a hose into the sump pit for a while on a normal outdoor irrigation day and route the output into the garden, just to see how many cycles you actually get from a single battery charge. If you don't like the result, buy another battery and connect it in parallel to the first.
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Re: The ultimate sump pump battery backup?

Fri Oct 26, 2018 2:29 pm

drfish wrote:
I forgot to mention it in my first post, but I already have that exact water-powered backup pump. It can't keep up with heavy rain.

Regarding code, running a pump from an inverter sounds pretty mundane. What makes you think it would be frowned upon?
Ah ok. I'm not entirely sure but I remember the last time I looked into a DIY battery backup appliance there were all sorts of red flags like where to store the battery, what kind of battery it was, how the terminals were exposed, whether it's considered part of a permanent or temporary house fixture, etc. There's code to be followed, unfortunately.

drfish wrote:
I'll try to get some Kill A Watt numbers this weekend. I also talked to a friend at work and he suggested I consider plain old lead acid batteries to get more Amp hours for my buck. I'm not sure about the maintenance aspect of that concept though... :-?

You need sealed, deep-cycle lead acid batteries unless you feel like dealing with the excess hydrogen and venting. That's a specific part of the NEC 2017 section 480.10 requirements which also references NFPA-1-2015 (but again, I'm no doctor).
 
drfish
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Re: The ultimate sump pump battery backup?

Fri Oct 26, 2018 4:33 pm

Thanks for the advice guys, this is good stuff!

Sealed deep-cycle marine battery message heard loud and clear. I'll look into the code stuff closer as well. Once I'm off baby-duty I'll check the Kill A Watt numbers.

I'd like to avoid the 12v kits. Adding a 4th pump seems crazy, as does replacing one of my good ones with something smaller. Plus, I already have a hacked together setup with a $15 800gph aquarium pump that I can use to get water out a window while powered by a computer UPS if I need to buy some time.
 
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Re: The ultimate sump pump battery backup?

Sat Oct 27, 2018 8:59 am

drfish wrote:
I'll look into the code stuff closer as well.
...
Plus, I already have a hacked together setup with a $15 800gph aquarium pump that I can use to get water out a window while powered by a computer UPS if I need to buy some time.
To heck with code, this sounds like the most fun of your pumps so far. I expect pictures at the end of all this.
 
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Re: The ultimate sump pump battery backup?

Sat Oct 27, 2018 11:00 am

Duct Tape Dude wrote:
To heck with code, this sounds like the most fun of your pumps so far. I expect pictures at the end of all this.

Ha, agreed. This sounds far more humorous (as well as cheap).
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Re: The ultimate sump pump battery backup?

Sat Oct 27, 2018 11:46 am

I don't know anything about these pumps, but Is there a reason you can't use a 12v pump. Without the inverter things become much cheaper and easier to implement.

You mentioned the expected cycling nature of the pump. Would a smaller 12v pump running at a higher frequency be suitable? Then you could use a cheap battery charge and an OR relay to either charge the batteries or run the pumps based on if the house has power. Also you could add a few extra cheap batteries. I don't see why you need high end deep cycle batteries for this.
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Re: The ultimate sump pump battery backup?

Sat Oct 27, 2018 11:51 am

The reason for the deep cycle batteries is so you don't need to replace them after just a couple of power outages. This may or may not be a serious concern, depending on how frequent the power outages are.
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Heiwashin
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Re: The ultimate sump pump battery backup?

Sat Oct 27, 2018 12:00 pm

just brew it! wrote:
The reason for the deep cycle batteries is so you don't need to replace them after just a couple of power outages. This may or may not be a serious concern, depending on how frequent the power outages are.

I guess, but i would try to build a battery voltage cutoff into the systemv either way. It might be more expensive but any battery drained to 0 is going to take a hit, and I would expect this to sit idle for years without maintenance.
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Re: The ultimate sump pump battery backup?

Sat Oct 27, 2018 12:09 pm

Heiwashin wrote:
just brew it! wrote:
The reason for the deep cycle batteries is so you don't need to replace them after just a couple of power outages. This may or may not be a serious concern, depending on how frequent the power outages are.

I guess, but i would try to build a battery voltage cutoff into the systemv either way. It might be more expensive but any battery drained to 0 is going to take a hit, and I would expect this to sit idle for years without maintenance.

That does not seem like a good tradeoff to me. If the power is out and you're taking on water, replacing the battery is going to be a lot cheaper than dealing with all the other stuff that will be damaged or destroyed when your basement floods because the pump cut out early to prevent damage to the battery! (And if you don't have stuff in the basement that would be damaged in a flood, why do you have the backup pump in the first place?)
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Heiwashin
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Re: The ultimate sump pump battery backup?

Sat Oct 27, 2018 12:13 pm

Yea but, the difference between a safe cutoff voltage to preserve the battery or maximum damage is only going to be a few minutes. Also I really would over shoot my expected required use on battery life. I guess it's debatable whether it's cheaper to use one battery and risk wearing it out faster, or spend for an extra and a cutoff for a higher chance at a long life.
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Re: The ultimate sump pump battery backup?

Sat Oct 27, 2018 1:00 pm

This thread has come at a fun time, my sump pump just died this morning! Luckily the backup SumpJet is working fine. Now to figure out how difficult it is to install one while water rolls in.
 
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Re: The ultimate sump pump battery backup?

Sat Oct 27, 2018 1:17 pm

I've gotten pretty good at replacing my sump pumps (have lived in this house for nearly 2 decades, so we've been through a couple each of the main and backup pumps now). Pretty much have the routine down.

Two things that have pissed me off over the years:

1. The time the one-way valve on the discharge pipe of the main pump failed, and killed the pump because it kept cycling on and off every few seconds. (The water flowing back into the sump from the pipe was enough to trigger the pump again.)

2. The "float on the end of a cable" switches suck. The pump can eventually shift around in the sump from the vibration of the pump cycling on and off, and wedge the float switch against the side of the sump (or against the other pump if you have a backup). You either end up with the pump stuck on (and a burned out pump motor), or a pump that won't turn on, depending on how the float gets wedged. IMO the switches that have a float that slides vertically are better.
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drfish
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Re: The ultimate sump pump battery backup?

Sat Oct 27, 2018 1:44 pm

Duct Tape Dude wrote:
To heck with code, this sounds like the most fun of your pumps so far. I expect pictures at the end of all this.

Ha! It might have saved me last time if I'd had two of them. It was close. FWIW, it was one of these and one of these. As it was, some carpet got pretty wet, but I figure a couple thousand gallons stayed outside that wouldn't have otherwise. Of course I'll document whatever I pull the trigger on. :)

Heiwashin wrote:
I don't know anything about these pumps, but Is there a reason you can't use a 12v pump. Without the inverter things become much cheaper and easier to implement.

Just capacity, the 12v models look to be about half the GPH of my main sump. That just doesn't sit right with me, even if the 12v ones are 3x better than my aquarium pump stupidness. If I'm going to do this, I don't want to cut any corners. I would be super pissed if I spent half the money just to watch the pit fill up again because the pump was too small. :x
 
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Re: The ultimate sump pump battery backup?

Sat Oct 27, 2018 2:13 pm

Sounds like you get quite a bit of water coming into the sump when it rains. My backup is an off-the-shelf 12V unit, and it pumps considerably faster than I've ever seen water coming in. Have you already taken steps to redirect water away from the foundation? Just putting some extensions on the downspouts so the water discharges about 6 feet further from the house made a pretty big difference.
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drfish
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Re: The ultimate sump pump battery backup?

Mon Apr 29, 2019 11:45 am

Just wanted to circle back around to this thread since I promised I would document whatever I pull the trigger on. Seriously, this was the catalyst.
 
CScottG
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Re: The ultimate sump pump battery backup?

Mon Apr 29, 2019 3:23 pm

-well that got expensive fast. :wink:


I'm surprised that no-one appreciated the irony of this thread:


-fish out of water. :o :P
 
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Re: The ultimate sump pump battery backup?

Mon Apr 29, 2019 3:56 pm

CScottG wrote:
-fish out of water. :o :P

No, fish with too much water.
What we have today is way too much pluribus and not enough unum.
 
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Re: The ultimate sump pump battery backup?

Wed Nov 24, 2021 7:52 pm

Previously, I used special liquids, for a hot tub, it seemed an ideal option - a special tool, and even with chlorine, at a price more than affordable. But now I am sure that there is nothing better than hot tub sump pumps. I would advise you to check out sump pumps tested and approved ByRossi, a hot tub specialist and designer service.

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