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drfish
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Re: No... not him! Don't tell me they got him too!

Wed Mar 27, 2019 10:26 am

THAT EXPLAINS SO MUCH.
 
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Re: No... not him! Don't tell me they got him too!

Wed Mar 27, 2019 10:45 am

DancinJack wrote:
FWIW I don't really think this is fair. Everyone is different. Just because it's not your method doesn't mean people can't do what needs to be done another way.

There have been numerous studies on this topic, and multi-tasking ALWAYS produces a an inferior result. Is it possible for some people that result will be less inferior than someone else's? Maybe, but it's still bad. https://smallbusiness.chron.com/bad-eff ... 32419.html

One of the major tenets in my industry is telling people to limit their WIP (work in process). Leaders think that putting a developer on 2 or 3 different projects will get them more for their money, but in reality instead of a 50/50 split you get something closer to 35/35, or 20/20/20 in the case of a 3 way split.
 
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Re: No... not him! Don't tell me they got him too!

Wed Mar 27, 2019 10:58 am

leor wrote:
There have been numerous studies on this topic, and multi-tasking ALWAYS produces a an inferior result. Is it possible for some people that result will be less inferior than someone else's? Maybe, but it's still bad. https://smallbusiness.chron.com/bad-eff ... 32419.html

One of the major tenets in my industry is telling people to limit their WIP (work in process). Leaders think that putting a developer on 2 or 3 different projects will get them more for their money, but in reality instead of a 50/50 split you get something closer to 35/35, or 20/20/20 in the case of a 3 way split.

I'm not disputing any of that. I just don't think it's fair to apply that to everything in life. I don't really think, for instance, I need 100 percent of my cognitive processing to load the dishwasher or vacuum or put together computer parts which is why I'm fine with listening to a podcast or YT video at the same time. Might I miss a sentence or two from the audio? Sure. Will it kill me? Nah.
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Re: No... not him! Don't tell me they got him too!

Wed Mar 27, 2019 11:00 am

DancinJack wrote:
Waco wrote:
Multi-tasking: how to do multiple things at once, poorly.

FWIW I don't really think this is fair. Everyone is different. Just because it's not your method doesn't mean people can't do what needs to be done another way.

It totally depends on the task, honestly. I can easily do many simple things at once, especially if they are routine. I was under the impression we were talking about actual *work*, though, not mindless tasks.

It's generally not a great idea to do multiple things at once that are critical to uptime of a datacenter or human safety. :)
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Re: No... not him! Don't tell me they got him too!

Wed Mar 27, 2019 11:03 am

Waco wrote:
It totally depends on the task, honestly. I can easily do many simple things at once, especially if they are routine. I was under the impression we were talking about actual *work*, though, not mindless tasks.

It's generally not a great idea to do multiple things at once that are critical to uptime of a datacenter or human safety. :)

DancinJack wrote:
I'm not disputing any of that. I just don't think it's fair to apply that to everything in life. I don't really think, for instance, I need 100 percent of my cognitive processing to load the dishwasher or vacuum or put together computer parts which is why I'm fine with listening to a podcast or YT video at the same time. Might I miss a sentence or two from the audio? Sure. Will it kill me? Nah.

:)
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Re: No... not him! Don't tell me they got him too!

Wed Mar 27, 2019 11:21 am

I think it's important to think about the demographic that needed to target to bring revenues back to the site. I know people are bemoaning Youtube and streaming reviews, but that's how the current wave of hardware enthusiasts digests their information. As is the case with many internet communities, TR and these forums are really a snapshot of how people interacted with the internet 10-15+ years ago. Most teenagers and young adults who getting into the hardware enthusiast hobby are relying on video formats, not longform. That's just the norm now; when we all started sites like TR were the norm. I'm sure in 20+ years when we're slapping on VR headsets to watch hardware demonstrations, all the Youtubers/Twitchers will be advocating for videos being the superior choice :P
 
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Re: No... not him! Don't tell me they got him too!

Wed Mar 27, 2019 11:22 am

The Egg wrote:
Same here. I've never even considered Youtube for PC hardware. Not sure how you could make the video format conducive to analyzing specs, benchmarks/graphs, etc. That's something I was planning to look into ---- how they were making it work. I can see how a hands-on with keyboards/mice/controllers/peripherals would be useful, but not much else.

Done right, you interleave shots of the reviewer working with the hardware and describing testing methodology, with full-screen captures of the demos running and a smattering of Powerpoint-style slides. The video approach can also do things that don't work as well in print, like have a video of a test demo running while the reviewer narrates "we did observe a smattering of unexpected artifacts just outside the primary FOV" -- freeze frame, record scratch, draw a circle around a suspect area -- "and have reached out to the vendor for an explanation."

Most of this is stuff TR already has done in various forms, but interleaved through a long-form print review structure. For the video, you take the highlights of those, write a summary version of the article, and use that as the basis of a narration script. And yeah, it takes time. You pretty much need at least one dedicated A/V nerd happily juggling Final Cut on a Mac to make it work.
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Re: No... not him! Don't tell me they got him too!

Wed Mar 27, 2019 11:46 am

leor wrote:
I think the real question at hand is: Is it too late to reverse this, and what would it take? If the idea is for leaning on the community more, maybe we can take one of the ideas from the front page and create a "platinum" tier where we create another forum thread similar to the Smokey Back Room, and contributors can be a part of conversations like this, helping to drive the future of the site (in addition to anything else that makes sense). This would give people a vested interest TR's future as they would have some skin in the game.

I like this idea. Kinda like a steering committee? Or a Board of Directors?
 
drfish
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Re: No... not him! Don't tell me they got him too!

Wed Mar 27, 2019 11:53 am

Usacomp2k3 wrote:
leor wrote:
I think the real question at hand is: Is it too late to reverse this, and what would it take? If the idea is for leaning on the community more, maybe we can take one of the ideas from the front page and create a "platinum" tier where we create another forum thread similar to the Smokey Back Room, and contributors can be a part of conversations like this, helping to drive the future of the site (in addition to anything else that makes sense). This would give people a vested interest TR's future as they would have some skin in the game.

I like this idea. Kinda like a steering committee? Or a Board of Directors?


The funny thing about a smokey back room is that it kind of already implies it's full of old, probably crotchety, men. A bunch of fossils gathered in an even smokier and further back room could be in danger of being out of touch, heh.
 
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Re: No... not him! Don't tell me they got him too!

Wed Mar 27, 2019 11:58 am

Music can help me focus. A podcast or something that's just "background noise" is distracting. I've never really been a person who enjoys background noise, so I guess I'm a fossil also. People used to put the TV on for background noise. Now they go to youtube for that.
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Re: No... not him! Don't tell me they got him too!

Wed Mar 27, 2019 12:19 pm

Redocbew wrote:
Music can help me focus. A podcast or something that's just "background noise" is distracting. I've never really been a person who enjoys background noise, so I guess I'm a fossil also. People used to put the TV on for background noise. Now they go to youtube for that.

I like non-verbal music as background music. Specifically Soundtracks.
 
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Re: No... not him! Don't tell me they got him too!

Wed Mar 27, 2019 12:57 pm

Usacomp2k3 wrote:
I like this idea. Kinda like a steering committee? Or a Board of Directors?

I'd expect something less official, more conversational.
 
synthtel2
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Re: No... not him! Don't tell me they got him too!

Wed Mar 27, 2019 2:46 pm

Screw my generation, we're doing it wrong.

I'm not here because I want to get a general idea of the relative performance stack-up - that could be conveyed in about 30 seconds tops - I'm here because I want all the details and to understand as much as possible about why and when something performs as it does. When multitasking, not only is the other task impaired, but understanding of the video content is likely to be pretty damn bad too. If not multitasking, then even with aggressive use of playback speed controls and rewinds, I still can usually digest written information to a vastly better degree of understanding in the same amount of time. If I'm going for the same degree of understanding, I'm pretty sure I'd usually take 3x as long or worse to get there with video, and I usually just don't have that kind of patience.

When trying to understand something in detail, the rate of spoken information and the rate of processing that information just don't match up. Processing rate is all over the place, and not only does it often go much faster or slower than speech, but it does so in ways unpredictable to the speaker. Maybe the speaker drops a line that they think is uninteresting so they move on quickly, but it's some angle I haven't heard before and I want to stop and think about it for 15 seconds. Maybe it affects how I integrate some information from a couple minutes back, and I've got to go try to find it again (much easier with text). This kind of thing happens constantly, and it's exacerbated by how 95% of the time I'm watching this kind of thing I'm running at 1.5x speed and still bored enough that my mind is wandering, so it's whiplash between two extremes of processing.

Those who prefer written content may be fewer these days, but we're not going anywhere.
 
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Re: No... not him! Don't tell me they got him too!

Wed Mar 27, 2019 3:16 pm

Maybe, but tr isn't currently able to function as it is based just on us guys.
 
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Re: No... not him! Don't tell me they got him too!

Wed Mar 27, 2019 3:34 pm

Yeah, "not going away" could mean a lot of things. I'm trying to avoid an R&P tangent here, but I very much believe that it's extremely important for in-depth, empirical analysis to continue and be publicly available even if it's not popular or entertaining for "most people". It would be a detriment to the advancement of technology in general for this kind of information to be sequestered away into some kind of technical library not available to the general public. Yes, of course there is no such thing as an "independent" chip architect, and it's difficult these days even in the field of software to create a large, complex application as a hobby by yourself. However, if I hadn't read Hannibal's articles on Ars Technica years ago, and come here to dig into the dirty details of how all this stuff works, then I might not have become an engineer myself. I doubt very much that I'm alone in that way.

I'm hoping there's some middle ground that provides a way to make that happen.
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Re: No... not him! Don't tell me they got him too!

Wed Mar 27, 2019 4:09 pm

This article linked in the shortbread is a great example of producing content for video & written form. How much more time does it take to write for both applications, I'm not sure.
https://www.gamersnexus.net/guides/3453 ... more-cases
 
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Re: No... not him! Don't tell me they got him too!

Wed Mar 27, 2019 4:19 pm

synthtel2 wrote:
Screw my generation, we're doing it wrong.

I'm not here because I want to get a general idea of the relative performance stack-up - that could be conveyed in about 30 seconds tops - I'm here because I want all the details and to understand as much as possible about why and when something performs as it does. When multitasking, not only is the other task impaired, but understanding of the video content is likely to be pretty damn bad too. If not multitasking, then even with aggressive use of playback speed controls and rewinds, I still can usually digest written information to a vastly better degree of understanding in the same amount of time. If I'm going for the same degree of understanding, I'm pretty sure I'd usually take 3x as long or worse to get there with video, and I usually just don't have that kind of patience.

When trying to understand something in detail, the rate of spoken information and the rate of processing that information just don't match up. Processing rate is all over the place, and not only does it often go much faster or slower than speech, but it does so in ways unpredictable to the speaker. Maybe the speaker drops a line that they think is uninteresting so they move on quickly, but it's some angle I haven't heard before and I want to stop and think about it for 15 seconds. Maybe it affects how I integrate some information from a couple minutes back, and I've got to go try to find it again (much easier with text). This kind of thing happens constantly, and it's exacerbated by how 95% of the time I'm watching this kind of thing I'm running at 1.5x speed and still bored enough that my mind is wandering, so it's whiplash between two extremes of processing.

Those who prefer written content may be fewer these days, but we're not going anywhere.


A video that is well produced can be just as informative as an article IMO, and arguably provide a deeper level of understanding with visual aids that are hard to implement in a written format. I think creating an effective video is much harder than writing an article (which by no means is an easy task), but if its done right I usually enjoy them more than articles. The production and execution are key however, and that takes considerably more manpower.
 
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Re: No... not him! Don't tell me they got him too!

Wed Mar 27, 2019 6:44 pm

What is TR's target audience? I'm not sure it's me. I'm not in the IT/Tech field in any way, but I'm a hobbyist/enthusiast that really enjoys techy stuff. I build computers and I'm the go-to guy for tech related things with family and friends.

When I have questions my first place is YouTube now., and sometimes I just like to watch or listen to a YouTuber talk about tech stuff. I can't stand LTT, but I mostly like Paul's or Kyle's sites, I even like Jayz sometimes. Tech Deals is a great site. I miss Rodney Reynolds too. If you look at the followers of these sites, it's mostly noobs and wannabes. This is where the masses are going. I know it's also the gutter most of the time too.

With that said, has the thought of a partnership or merger ever been discussed. Maybe some talented YouTuber is struggling a little bit too and needs something like TR to diversify or expand (or vice-versa).

I don't know...just a thought.
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Re: No... not him! Don't tell me they got him too!

Wed Mar 27, 2019 7:18 pm

Usacomp2k3 wrote:
This article linked in the shortbread is a great example of producing content for video & written form. How much more time does it take to write for both applications, I'm not sure.
https://www.gamersnexus.net/guides/3453 ... more-cases

Just writing and recording myself reading a script, editing direct screen capture, and stitching it together takes me around 10x to 15x the length of the finished product. And that might even be on the low side for a very budget production (it very well could be more like 20x if not everything is exactly perfect). That video is just basically stock footage of their factory tour, and I think it's reasonable that 11 minute video took quite a while to make. GamerNexus's actual video content is well-staged, well-lit, and looks nice. That's going to add to the the time commitment and (perhaps more importantly right now) the financial commitment greatly.

edit: my math sucked. I can produce around 15 minutes of online learning video training in around 4-5 hours.
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synthtel2
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Re: No... not him! Don't tell me they got him too!

Wed Mar 27, 2019 7:48 pm

SecretMaster wrote:
and arguably provide a deeper level of understanding with visual aids that are hard to implement in a written format.

This works out great for video in fields that regularly need to communicate something that doesn't fit in text or static images (like a lot of musical topics), I just don't think computer hardware is even close to being one of those fields.

With flawless (and very time-consuming) execution, video can just about catch up to text as pure communication on topics like ours, but IMO the likes of GamersNexus still aren't averaging anything close despite that extra effort. Salaries being the biggest expenditure for TR, the time that would be required to do a merely decent job of that is the thing in shortest supply.

Communication doesn't sell, though. Entertainment does, and video has got us on that one. :(
 
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Re: No... not him! Don't tell me they got him too!

Wed Mar 27, 2019 9:31 pm

synthtel2 wrote:
Communication doesn't sell, though. Entertainment does, and video has got us on that one. :(


Reminds me of K-12 education — it’s all about entertaining kids and parents without much teaching content. In both of these cases the solution is probably some desperate mix of appeasing the appetite of the hour while performing a timeless duty.
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Re: No... not him! Don't tell me they got him too!

Thu Mar 28, 2019 8:31 am

Man the last page of this thread
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Re: No... not him! Don't tell me they got him too!

Thu Mar 28, 2019 9:01 am

It would be worse to deny it. :P
 
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Re: No... not him! Don't tell me they got him too!

Fri Mar 29, 2019 11:05 pm

.......
 
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Re: No... not him! Don't tell me they got him too!

Tue Apr 02, 2019 3:52 pm

SecretMaster wrote:
I think it's important to think about the demographic that needed to target to bring revenues back to the site. I know people are bemoaning Youtube and streaming reviews, but that's how the current wave of hardware enthusiasts digests their information. As is the case with many internet communities, TR and these forums are really a snapshot of how people interacted with the internet 10-15+ years ago. Most teenagers and young adults who getting into the hardware enthusiast hobby are relying on video formats, not longform. That's just the norm now; when we all started sites like TR were the norm. I'm sure in 20+ years when we're slapping on VR headsets to watch hardware demonstrations, all the Youtubers/Twitchers will be advocating for videos being the superior choice :P

Tech site are dying. Arse is a mere shadow of its former self. No idea about Anand I never really went there after my first brush with them was off putting. Tom's Adware was the first to commercialize and when they did that I never went back (life is too short to read a review at one sentence per page, even if I have followed the site since their first week/month.). [H] I assumed died years ago, last time I went there I was milling Alpha sinks to pour in molten silver and looking at welding stainless pipe and using a vane pump to do mercury liquid cooling. Is Blues News still around? Polycount didn't seem to do game models last time I went there, more than a decade ago. Is Overclockers still around?
The sites all age and either vanish or become cliquish and thus alienating to new people (and some current members who will bleed away). As population drops off subscriptions lose their ability to support.
I took a ban here and never came back. One of the first wave here and that was it for me. I will still come here to look at build recommendations (and use the newegg links)

Now you have to youtube to support your site. Post vid and talk about the "links to more in depth stuff at TR below".
For success you also have to sell your soul. A smart video channel will get less than 10% of the viewers of a channel designed for mongoloids. Compare Today I Learned to Logan Paul or Pewdiepie (or anyone who is making their income reviewing vapes.. Holy hive of scum and villainy Batman!). Compare Food Wishes to Epic Meal Time (High effort quality has half the subs of low effort stupid).
Big subscriber count depends on being so over expressive and stupid that people are sure you are drunk and have just experienced profound brain trauma (no one should trusts people with profound brain trauma to explain how to build a PC) . So encouraging stupidity = $$$. Cash for crimes against humanity. Well the other option is "Hot Chicks in Sexy Clothes"... or "Accessible Chicks".. still selling your soul here.

Now if it is just enough cash to keep the lights on? What will set you apart from all the people who were in on the Youtube ground floor years ago?
Comedy is right out (I took my ban explaining about judges being comedicly challenged, for an upcoming contest.). First rule of comedy is "You are NEVER allowed to steal jokes"
News aggregation? You need daily videos for quite a while so this is an possibility. It is quick to do editorials about other news.
Technical stuff is assumed but you can't do a new build guide every day. The raw amount of time just to do a new review every day would kill whoever tries to do that.
Streaming games on the weekend? Just have good conversation while you do it.
Add in game reviews?
Sell your soul and become the idiot tech channel? Are you prepared to never feel clean again? Are you prepared to act profoundly brain damaged? Are you OK doing an episode on "vomit cooling your CPU"? Can you stage hardware fires? Can you stage injuries? Are you willing to wear a stupid looking hat like the vape reviewers do?

When is the cash needed? Do you have a year to grow your Youtube channel?

Well off to look for the build guides, my Sandy Bridge has decided it will no longer overclock and the drop from 5ghz is making games unplayable. With the other things getting hinky I suspect the MB is on the way out.
Ah yes, this brings up the point that a site dedicated to something like building PCs may need to expand as some of only build a new one every 5-10 years (if you have great overclocking options). Not a lot of regular attendance for that. I suspect that is why Arse does all the news aggregation.
 
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Re: No... not him! Don't tell me they got him too!

Tue Apr 02, 2019 7:15 pm

BluesNews is still around and in the same format as it was 20 years ago.

Also, I love the way you call it Arse :lol:
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Re: No... not him! Don't tell me they got him too!

Wed Apr 03, 2019 11:14 am

ludi wrote:
You pretty much need at least one dedicated A/V nerd happily juggling Final Cut on a Mac to make it work.

Won't Premiere Pro on Windows do? :(
 
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Re: No... not him! Don't tell me they got him too!

Fri Apr 05, 2019 12:38 pm

synthtel2 wrote:
Screw my generation, we're doing it wrong.

I'm not here because I want to get a general idea of the relative performance stack-up - that could be conveyed in about 30 seconds tops - I'm here because I want all the details and to understand as much as possible about why and when something performs as it does. When multitasking, not only is the other task impaired, but understanding of the video content is likely to be pretty damn bad too. If not multitasking, then even with aggressive use of playback speed controls and rewinds, I still can usually digest written information to a vastly better degree of understanding in the same amount of time. If I'm going for the same degree of understanding, I'm pretty sure I'd usually take 3x as long or worse to get there with video, and I usually just don't have that kind of patience.

When trying to understand something in detail, the rate of spoken information and the rate of processing that information just don't match up. Processing rate is all over the place, and not only does it often go much faster or slower than speech, but it does so in ways unpredictable to the speaker. Maybe the speaker drops a line that they think is uninteresting so they move on quickly, but it's some angle I haven't heard before and I want to stop and think about it for 15 seconds. Maybe it affects how I integrate some information from a couple minutes back, and I've got to go try to find it again (much easier with text). This kind of thing happens constantly, and it's exacerbated by how 95% of the time I'm watching this kind of thing I'm running at 1.5x speed and still bored enough that my mind is wandering, so it's whiplash between two extremes of processing.

Those who prefer written content may be fewer these days, but we're not going anywhere.


I agree 109%. I couldn’t have said it better myself. Although I’m probably not quite the same generation as you. But I am dyslexic and never read books. I find it hard work, I have to concentrate to read, and my reading speed will definitely be lower than normal.
 
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Re: No... not him! Don't tell me they got him too!

Tue Apr 09, 2019 12:35 pm

Have you guys thought about branching out into more mobile reviews? I go through a lot of them, but getting in depth analysis and price/performance recommendations like I find here on TR are missing. Most reviews that I see just list the specs, features, and then the reviewers subjective feel of the device.
 
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Re: No... not him! Don't tell me they got him too!

Tue Apr 09, 2019 1:21 pm

I like to look up video reviews for some things. Tablets, notebooks, thermal pastes (liquid metal curiosity), and PC cases come to mind. Video gives you a more tangible "visual" of the item. Can be quite beneficial.


I miss the podcasts here with David Kanter. Those were the only Podcasts I've watched. Aside from EEVBlog on Youtube.
Last edited by swaaye on Tue Apr 09, 2019 1:27 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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