Personal computing discussed

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What should I write a "review" of?

Poll ended at Wed May 29, 2019 12:16 pm

Potato cannoning
4 (8%)
Cooling fan blowout
7 (13%)
Bluetooth OBD2 dongles
3 (6%)
Optane experimentation
10 (19%)
Exotic steak preparations
9 (17%)
Portable NAND grudge match
14 (27%)
Real world RX 560 performance
5 (10%)
 
Total votes: 52
 
LoneWolf15
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Re: TR Gerbil's Choice Review I - we have a winner!

Sun Jun 02, 2019 10:14 am

notfred wrote:
Heat em up and freeze em, throw them in a wash cycle (left in a pants pocket), does that kill them?


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DeadOfKnight
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Re: TR Gerbil's Choice Review I - we have a winner!

Sun Jun 02, 2019 11:57 am

I would have voted for Optane, but for a different reason. I've always wondered what the real world benefits of hybrid storage are, and what are the limitations. I mean, you could just get an SSD for cheap these days, which is what most of us do, but the idea of hybrid storage for your system drive is interesting.

We've used USB flash drives as a Ready Boost cache, hybrid hard drives, SSDs set up as an SRT cache, and now Optane. How much of a measurable performance gain is there? How much storage is really useful before diminishing returns? How long do they take to "learn" what needs to be accelerated?

Personally, I'll never use a hybrid solution for my system drive when cheap SSDs are available, but this would be interesting. I know it's been done before, but those tests are old. They don't go head to head on Windows 10, with bigger capacities or the latest nvme, optane, USB 3.0, or hybrid hard drives available.
Intel Core i7-5775c, Asus Maximus VII Formula, Win 10 Pro
RTX 2080 Ti FE, Corsair 2x8GB DDR3-1866, Corsair AX860
Corsair H105, WD Red 4TB x2, Creative X-Fi Titanium HD
Samsung 850 EVO 1TB, Alienware AW3418DW, Corsair 450D
 
LoneWolf15
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Re: TR Gerbil's Choice Review I - we have a winner!

Sun Jun 02, 2019 4:21 pm

DeadOfKnight wrote:
I would have voted for Optane, but for a different reason. I've always wondered what the real world benefits of hybrid storage are, and what are the limitations. I mean, you could just get an SSD for cheap these days, which is what most of us do, but the idea of hybrid storage for your system drive is interesting.

We've used USB flash drives as a Ready Boost cache, hybrid hard drives, SSDs set up as an SRT cache, and now Optane. How much of a measurable performance gain is there? How much storage is really useful before diminishing returns? How long do they take to "learn" what needs to be accelerated?

Personally, I'll never use a hybrid solution for my system drive when cheap SSDs are available, but this would be interesting. I know it's been done before, but those tests are old. They don't go head to head on Windows 10, with bigger capacities or the latest nvme, optane, USB 3.0, or hybrid hard drives available.


I think Optane would be interesting, but I have a server at home, and I've already seen this question answered.

There really is a performance boost with Optane and the reviews show it. The real reason for Optane is that for data storage, platter drives are still king in the cost-per-GB range. This is why my gaming rig has a 1TB WD Black, so I'm not wasting space on my SSDs, but even moreso, why I have a storage array on my HP Proliant ML310e (a RAID-5 of 3TB Hitachi 7.2k NAS drives), and a separate RAID-10 array of 240GB MLC SSDs for the operating system. Storing a couple of terabytes of video, software ISOs, music, etc. isn't cheap to do by SSD, especially reliable, MLC SSD. 12TB of disks (9TB for storage, after the array is configured in this case) is a lot less expensive.

That's why I have a caching hardware RAID controller (HP SmartArray P420, 2GB cache). It makes all the difference in the world in speed when it comes to a modest array of hard disks. Optane works in much the same way as the cache on a RAID controller does, only it doesn't have hardware parity calculations like a RAID controller. If your desire is to speed up a large storage drive, it's a sensible way to do it. OTOH, if you don't need that kind of storage, but you need or want fast data access, better to just get some 512GB-1TB SSDs and be done with it.
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JustAnEngineer
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Re: TR Gerbil's Choice Review I - we have a winner!

Sun Jun 02, 2019 4:26 pm

LoneWolf15 wrote:
Data storage, platter drives are still king in the cost-per-GB range. This is why my gaming rig has a 1TB WD Black, so I'm not wasting space on my SSDs, but even moreso, why I have a storage array on my HP Proliant ML310e (a RAID-5 of 3TB Hitachi 7.2k NAS drives)
If you want fast, get an SSD. If you want lots of space per dollar, get large hard-drives. Your 1 WD TB Black drive seems to fall into neither of those categories. It is tiny and it is three to five times as expensive per TB as other hard-drives. $74½ for a 1.0 TB WD black hard-drive isn't a bargain. The cheapest 1.0 TB SSDs are under $90, just 20% more than your hard-drive.
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Waco
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Re: TR Gerbil's Choice Review I - we have a winner!

Sun Jun 02, 2019 5:27 pm

For large storage hardware RAID arrays are a mixed bag. The performance is generally worse than a good ZFS configuration *and* they aren't as good at keeping your bits intact.

For a few TB with some speed, there's no reason not to go SSD these days. Small HDDs are absurdly expensive per bit.

In short, what JAE said. :)
Desktop: X570 Gaming X | 3900X | 32 GB | Alphacool Eisblock Radeon VII | Heatkiller R3 | Samsung 4K 40" | 1 TB SX8200 Pro + 2 TB 660p + 2 TB SATA SSD
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DeadOfKnight
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Re: TR Gerbil's Choice Review I - we have a winner!

Mon Jun 03, 2019 7:00 am

LoneWolf15 wrote:
DeadOfKnight wrote:
I would have voted for Optane, but for a different reason. I've always wondered what the real world benefits of hybrid storage are, and what are the limitations. I mean, you could just get an SSD for cheap these days, which is what most of us do, but the idea of hybrid storage for your system drive is interesting.

We've used USB flash drives as a Ready Boost cache, hybrid hard drives, SSDs set up as an SRT cache, and now Optane. How much of a measurable performance gain is there? How much storage is really useful before diminishing returns? How long do they take to "learn" what needs to be accelerated?

Personally, I'll never use a hybrid solution for my system drive when cheap SSDs are available, but this would be interesting. I know it's been done before, but those tests are old. They don't go head to head on Windows 10, with bigger capacities or the latest nvme, optane, USB 3.0, or hybrid hard drives available.


I think Optane would be interesting, but I have a server at home, and I've already seen this question answered.

There really is a performance boost with Optane and the reviews show it. The real reason for Optane is that for data storage, platter drives are still king in the cost-per-GB range. This is why my gaming rig has a 1TB WD Black, so I'm not wasting space on my SSDs, but even moreso, why I have a storage array on my HP Proliant ML310e (a RAID-5 of 3TB Hitachi 7.2k NAS drives), and a separate RAID-10 array of 240GB MLC SSDs for the operating system. Storing a couple of terabytes of video, software ISOs, music, etc. isn't cheap to do by SSD, especially reliable, MLC SSD. 12TB of disks (9TB for storage, after the array is configured in this case) is a lot less expensive.

That's why I have a caching hardware RAID controller (HP SmartArray P420, 2GB cache). It makes all the difference in the world in speed when it comes to a modest array of hard disks. Optane works in much the same way as the cache on a RAID controller does, only it doesn't have hardware parity calculations like a RAID controller. If your desire is to speed up a large storage drive, it's a sensible way to do it. OTOH, if you don't need that kind of storage, but you need or want fast data access, better to just get some 512GB-1TB SSDs and be done with it.

I have a 1 TB SSD and two 4TB WD Reds in Raid 1 for media storage. I've thought about getting another 500 GB SSD for the system drive and letting my current SSD be my Steam folder for games, but I haven't felt the need to do so yet. It's just that I like to do a clean install every so often, and my ISP has a data cap.

I will get around to it eventually, but it will probably be whenever I upgrade my CPU, RAM, and mobo. Then I'll just get an NVMe drive and turn this SSD into a game drive for faster load times. Ryzen 3 looks promising, here's hoping I can steady my trigger finger when it launches and watch this competition play out.
Intel Core i7-5775c, Asus Maximus VII Formula, Win 10 Pro
RTX 2080 Ti FE, Corsair 2x8GB DDR3-1866, Corsair AX860
Corsair H105, WD Red 4TB x2, Creative X-Fi Titanium HD
Samsung 850 EVO 1TB, Alienware AW3418DW, Corsair 450D
 
LoneWolf15
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Re: TR Gerbil's Choice Review I - we have a winner!

Tue Jun 04, 2019 9:48 pm

JustAnEngineer wrote:
LoneWolf15 wrote:
Data storage, platter drives are still king in the cost-per-GB range. This is why my gaming rig has a 1TB WD Black, so I'm not wasting space on my SSDs, but even moreso, why I have a storage array on my HP Proliant ML310e (a RAID-5 of 3TB Hitachi 7.2k NAS drives)
If you want fast, get an SSD. If you want lots of space per dollar, get large hard-drives. Your 1 WD TB Black drive seems to fall into neither of those categories. It is tiny and it is three to five times as expensive per TB as other hard-drives. $74½ for a 1.0 TB WD black hard-drive isn't a bargain. The cheapest 1.0 TB SSDs are under $90, just 20% more than your hard-drive.


It was free. It cost me nothing; it was slightly used, a 1-platter drive made in 2015 that replaced a 2-platter 1TB WD Black made in 2010. Came out of a junked system that had its drive replaced at one point; after secure-erasing the data (DBAN), I tested the drive surface and after ensuring it was good, made sense.

It's in the workstation, and just serves to hold some of the userprofile folders.
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LoneWolf15
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Re: TR Gerbil's Choice Review I - we have a winner!

Tue Jun 04, 2019 9:52 pm

Waco wrote:
For large storage hardware RAID arrays are a mixed bag. The performance is generally worse than a good ZFS configuration *and* they aren't as good at keeping your bits intact.

For a few TB with some speed, there's no reason not to go SSD these days. Small HDDs are absurdly expensive per bit.

In short, what JAE said. :)


ZFS is great if you're running FreeNAS or a supporting setup. Windows Server has no such ZFS support. So the best solution is a hardware RAID card with caching. Mine also does automatic background testing periodically on the array.

My server also serves as a domain controller, and backs up all of the workstations on the LAN; it then backs itself up to a Thecus 4-bay NAS I also got for free, which has four 3TB WD Red drives. It's an iSCSI target for the server. I never consider RAID a backup (it isn't), just a guarantee of better uptime.
i9-9900K @4.7GHz, GIGABYTE Z390 Aorus Pro WiFi, 2 x 16GB G.Skill RipJaws V PC3000
Corsair 650D, Seasonic 1Kw Platinum PSU
2x HP EX920 1TB NVMe, Samsung 850 Pro 512GB 2.5", NEC 7200 DVDRW
Gigabyte RTX 2080 Super Gaming OC, Dell S2719DGF 27" LCD
 
LoneWolf15
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Re: TR Gerbil's Choice Review I - we have a winner!

Tue Jun 04, 2019 9:57 pm

LoneWolf15 wrote:
JustAnEngineer wrote:
LoneWolf15 wrote:
Data storage, platter drives are still king in the cost-per-GB range. This is why my gaming rig has a 1TB WD Black, so I'm not wasting space on my SSDs, but even moreso, why I have a storage array on my HP Proliant ML310e (a RAID-5 of 3TB Hitachi 7.2k NAS drives)
If you want fast, get an SSD. If you want lots of space per dollar, get large hard-drives. Your 1 WD TB Black drive seems to fall into neither of those categories. It is tiny and it is three to five times as expensive per TB as other hard-drives. $74½ for a 1.0 TB WD black hard-drive isn't a bargain. The cheapest 1.0 TB SSDs are under $90, just 20% more than your hard-drive.


It was free. It cost me nothing; it was slightly used, a 1-platter drive made in 2015 that replaced a 2-platter 1TB WD Black made in 2010. Came out of a junked system that had its drive replaced at one point; after secure-erasing the data (DBAN), I tested the drive surface and after ensuring it was good, made sense. I have access to a lot of recycled hardware.

It's in the workstation, and just serves to hold some of the userprofile folders. I could use a 600GB Velociraptor I have, but it's also made 2010, there's only so much advantage, and I believe that hard drives are like smoke detector batteries; you should change them every so often.
i9-9900K @4.7GHz, GIGABYTE Z390 Aorus Pro WiFi, 2 x 16GB G.Skill RipJaws V PC3000
Corsair 650D, Seasonic 1Kw Platinum PSU
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Usacomp2k3
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Re: TR Gerbil's Choice Review I - we have a winner!

Tue Jun 11, 2019 9:17 am

This puts Optane in a very good light, even for those that use SSD's:
https://www.kitguru.net/components/ssd- ... -review/7/
 
vonasi
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Re: TR Gerbil's Choice Review I - Official Thread

Thu Aug 08, 2019 9:27 am

LoneWolf15 wrote:
ludi wrote:
Captain Ned wrote:
Well, you better plan on spending some time at BBQ understanding the mechanics and design of the cannon, as it's prime fodder for something like this.

That's a threefer. I suspect a dad is nearby.


Be careful, some here have short fuses and are easily triggered. You could be sitting on a powder keg.


Really going over the head tho :oops:
 
Igor_Kavinski
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Re: TR Gerbil's Choice Review I - we have a winner!

Mon Nov 04, 2019 4:07 am

drfish wrote:
End-of-life behavior is interesting but don't expect a repeat of the SSD endurance test. I simply can't dedicate that much time or hardware to this "review." I'll test to multiple extremes, just don't expect time to be one of them.


Hey there. How's the review coming along?
 
meerkt
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Re: TR Gerbil's Choice Review I - we have a winner!

Mon Nov 04, 2019 7:03 pm

Igor_Kavinski wrote:
Hey there. How's the review coming along?

I'm guessing this:
https://techreport.com/forums/viewtopic ... 3#p1413623
 
drfish
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Re: TR Gerbil's Choice Review I - we have a winner!

Tue Nov 05, 2019 7:34 am

Yeah, sorry guys, but this is 99.9% not going to happen. Even if everything was rosy with TR and motivation wasn't an issue, I would still be struggling to find the time. The little preview I posted with simple performance metrics for the drives is all I have to offer.
 
Igor_Kavinski
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Re: TR Gerbil's Choice Review I - we have a winner!

Tue Nov 05, 2019 7:49 am

Bummer
 
DragonDaddyBear
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Re: TR Gerbil's Choice Review I - we have a winner!

Tue Nov 05, 2019 9:20 am

Fish, it amazed me you ever had the time for anything you did. Thanks for the dedication and effort.
 
Igor_Kavinski
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Re: TR Gerbil's Choice Review I - we have a winner!

Tue Nov 05, 2019 9:27 am

drfish wrote:
Yeah, sorry guys, but this is 99.9% not going to happen. Even if everything was rosy with TR and motivation wasn't an issue, I would still be struggling to find the time. The little preview I posted with simple performance metrics for the drives is all I have to offer.


Hate to bother you but couldn't you send the stuff over to one of the current TR reviewers and have them do what you had in mind?
 
Waco
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Re: TR Gerbil's Choice Review I - we have a winner!

Tue Nov 05, 2019 10:41 am

Igor_Kavinski wrote:
Hate to bother you but couldn't you send the stuff over to one of the current TR reviewers and have them do what you had in mind?

Which reviewer would that be? Last I checked we didn't have any left...
Desktop: X570 Gaming X | 3900X | 32 GB | Alphacool Eisblock Radeon VII | Heatkiller R3 | Samsung 4K 40" | 1 TB SX8200 Pro + 2 TB 660p + 2 TB SATA SSD
NAS: 1950X | Designare EX | 32 GB ECC | 7x8 TB RAIDZ2 | 8x2 TB RAID10 | FreeNAS | ZFS | LSI SAS
 
Igor_Kavinski
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Re: TR Gerbil's Choice Review I - we have a winner!

Tue Nov 05, 2019 10:52 am

Waco wrote:
Igor_Kavinski wrote:
Hate to bother you but couldn't you send the stuff over to one of the current TR reviewers and have them do what you had in mind?

Which reviewer would that be? Last I checked we didn't have any left...


ERIC FREDERIKSEN, AARON VIENOT , ZAK KILLIAN ?
 
drfish
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Re: TR Gerbil's Choice Review I - we have a winner!

Tue Nov 05, 2019 2:25 pm

Zak is out. If Eric or Aaron were actively asking for the drives, I would send them to them, but I don't think that's going to happen either.
 
Igor_Kavinski
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Re: TR Gerbil's Choice Review I - we have a winner!

Tue Nov 05, 2019 3:15 pm

drfish wrote:
Zak is out. If Eric or Aaron were actively asking for the drives, I would send them to them, but I don't think that's going to happen either.


I can't help feeling the gloom in your posts. Is the site in danger of being closed down?
 
just brew it!
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Re: TR Gerbil's Choice Review I - we have a winner!

Tue Nov 05, 2019 3:42 pm

Igor_Kavinski wrote:
drfish wrote:
Zak is out. If Eric or Aaron were actively asking for the drives, I would send them to them, but I don't think that's going to happen either.

I can't help feeling the gloom in your posts. Is the site in danger of being closed down?

It certainly isn't healthy...
Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
 
derFunkenstein
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Re: TR Gerbil's Choice Review I - we have a winner!

Tue Nov 05, 2019 4:39 pm

Igor_Kavinski wrote:
I can't help feeling the gloom in your posts. Is the site in danger of being closed down?

One of the things we gave up when those of us who were writing stopped is access. Nobody has any clue what the health of Tech Report is beyond public metrics like the ones discussed in another thread (which is where that discussion should remain).
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Igor_Kavinski
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Re: TR Gerbil's Choice Review I - we have a winner!

Tue Nov 05, 2019 11:56 pm

just brew it! wrote:
Igor_Kavinski wrote:
drfish wrote:
Zak is out. If Eric or Aaron were actively asking for the drives, I would send them to them, but I don't think that's going to happen either.

I can't help feeling the gloom in your posts. Is the site in danger of being closed down?

It certainly isn't healthy...

What's the contingency plan? Where is the TR gang going to assemble if one day the site just becomes inaccessible or down for maintenance indefinitely without notice? I hope the plan isn't to just get on with your lives and forget the past.
 
derFunkenstein
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Re: TR Gerbil's Choice Review I - we have a winner!

Thu Nov 07, 2019 3:36 pm

Lots of people are migrating to other existing forums. OC.net or Anandtech or TPU.
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