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Buy or Lease a new EV

Buy
14 (40%)
Lease
11 (31%)
Neither and spend all available funds buying delicious cheese. (But I'd still need a vehicle to haul the cheese)
10 (29%)
 
Total votes: 35
 
Sargent Duck
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To Lease or too buy an EV

Thu Jun 13, 2019 12:04 am

Sadly my 2007 Subaru Imprezza with 275k km (170877 miles) has developed multiple rust spots (part of living in Canada, I rust coated it every year) and although it is drive able (replaced the timing belt and clutch in 2014), it will require close $4500 to get it "proper" (currently a corroded oil pan, muffler welds are shot, suspension will need some love). Although mechanical issues can be fixed, the rust will eat this thing up in no time.

So, I've decided to treat myself and get the 2019 Hyundai Kona EV which looks to be a very capable EV. I am devastated my next car won't be standard *sniff*, but that's reality : (

The only problem I'm having, should I lease or buy? (5 year lease, 20,000km (12427miles)/annual)

Pro's for leasing:
- With battery technology continuing to improve, batteries could drastically improve in the next 5 years (the battery in the 2019 Leaf doubled from the 2018). When the lease is up, I can take advantage of any battery enhancements.
- Don't have to worry about battery degradation (rough estimate, 1% each year). Let Hyundai deal with wear and tear of batteries.

Pro's for buying:
- Battery tech may not improve significantly enough to worry about
- After 5 years, I'm laughing all the way to the bank from years 6-13'ish as I continue using the EV with NO mechanical issues (when typical gas cars would start having issues)
- More flexible payment options (6 year/7 year/8 year)

Thoughts?
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Re: To Lease or too buy an EV

Thu Jun 13, 2019 2:56 am

I think electrics are awesome, but the batteries are still lithium-ion tech same as we have in our phones and laptops and eventually they have a service life that depends on the number of charge cycles they go through. Running them low, and charging them too often/too fast will accelerate the degradation.

Tesloop has a very high-mile Model S (400,000 miles) but they have had to go through two battery replacements already and the car is just three years old. To put that many miles on a car they're probably driving long distances, discharging to very low levels and then charging to 100% to make up. Admittedly theirs is a very heavy duty cycle and most cars' batteries will likely not see anywhere near the level of abuse.
 
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Re: To Lease or too buy an EV

Thu Jun 13, 2019 6:37 am

Leasing usually only makes sense if you can write the lease payments off OR if you have no intention of buying the vehicle out at the end. In both cases, you want to be 100% certain you can stay inside the mileage limits. If you'll exceed the mileage limits or if you intend to buy the vehicle out at the end, it usually works out better financially to buy rather than lease. The payments are lower, but the buyout at the end kills the savings and then some.

I'm not convinced that the EV / Not EV decision and the Lease / Buy decision are tied together. I.e. I wouldn't look at it as "if I'm getting an EV it makes sense to lease, but if I get a combustion vehicle I'll buy instead." They're important decisions, but I don't see that they're linked.
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Re: To Lease or too buy an EV

Thu Jun 13, 2019 6:41 am

I agree with K-L-Waster that the "EV" aspect of the car doesn't really factor into to buy vs lease. I don't like leases at all for personal vehicles. I also think anything more than a 3 year note is very financially risky. How about finding a few year old Leaf? I have a good friend who bought one for $11k.
 
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Re: To Lease or too buy an EV

Thu Jun 13, 2019 7:12 am

I'm in a relatively small market (city of 1 million) and the only non Bolt EVs (I hate Chevy) within 100km of me are2017 Leaf and 2017 Ford Focus. Both at $21k and 5.99%. For $190/month more, the Kona is brand new with double the range and HP.

I take the bus to work (downtown) so that won't change with the new car (I'm not subjecting myself to rush hour traffic) so the car will be used lightly, grocery runs, trips to the hockey rink, misc stuff like that.
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Re: To Lease or too buy an EV

Thu Jun 13, 2019 8:43 am

Personally, I'd pass on the EV. I would only consider one as a commuter vehicle, with a "traditional" gas vehicle for longer trips/fun. But if I was already busing to work, that kills much of the EV's benefit (and need). Plus, taking the bus does a lot more good for the environmental impact (but that's another conversation).

If you're considering the purchase option at all, a new Subie will likely retain value better than most EVs and they're a much lower initial investment. Kona EVs start at $45,000 CAD while a new Impreza stars around $21,000 CAD and a Crosstrek at $23,700 CAD. These vehicles made my initial list when I was car shopping last year (AZ, USA), and I assume you'd be happy with them considering your 2007 Impreza.

If you're dead set on an EV, leasing seems like the better option for you. Your anxiety about advancing technology would be covered as long as you KNOW that you're ditching the vehicle at 5 years, and it sounds like you'll keep it within the lease terms.
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Re: To Lease or too buy an EV

Thu Jun 13, 2019 9:47 am

I was in the same situation about 4 years ago. I ended up buying a 2016 Soul EV in September 2015. My friend leased a Leaf in May 2015 and he has just bought out the lease rather than returning it and upgrading to a newer one.

The new Hyundai Kona, Kia Nero and Kia Soul all have basically the same EV battery and motor design with a slight difference in cell manufacturer. If my car was written off today I would instantly replace it with a new version. Don't worry about battery degradation - the old Soul EV's with air cooled battery packs are showing reasonable life - I'm at 3.5 years and 59,000 km and my battery State Of Health is 96%. The new batteries are liquid cooled and will do even better. There's always the battery warranty if you do get a bad pack or something goes wrong.

At this point I would buy the EV, your pro-lease points are negligible and it's going to cost you more in the long run.

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Re: To Lease or too buy an EV

Thu Jun 13, 2019 10:10 am

Usacomp2k3 wrote:
I agree with K-L-Waster that the "EV" aspect of the car doesn't really factor into to buy vs lease. I don't like leases at all for personal vehicles. I also think anything more than a 3 year note is very financially risky. How about finding a few year old Leaf? I have a good friend who bought one for $11k.


I'm with USA on this one. Financial security is the priority decision maker here. I would spend no more than 10% of your yearly gross if possible and preferably cash up front unless your loan is less than 5% interest or so and you have the full cost currently invested.
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Re: To Lease or too buy an EV

Thu Jun 13, 2019 10:26 am

If you do decide to go used then there are some 2016 Soul EV Luxury models that were used as taxi's in Montreal that are currently available. High mileage (130k) but some of them have brand new battery packs - just replaced under warranty. See http://www.mykiasoulev.com/forum/viewto ... f=3&t=1051
 
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Re: To Lease or too buy an EV

Thu Jun 13, 2019 10:52 am

Assuming it gets very cold where you live is an EV really that good of an idea? Don't the batteries have problems with really cold weather anyway and then when you factor in having to run the car's heater from the battery too...

I'd lean towards leasing for an EV as things are changing so quickly. Maybe after things have settled down buying will make sense again but then the car makers themselves seem keen on the whole leasing thing so maybe the option won't really be there in a few years.
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just brew it!
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Re: To Lease or too buy an EV

Thu Jun 13, 2019 11:22 am

Something else to consider when buying an EV... if you don't have an existing 240V outlet in the area where the vehicle will be parked, you need to factor in the cost of having one installed.
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Re: To Lease or too buy an EV

Thu Jun 13, 2019 12:18 pm

cheesyking wrote:
Assuming it gets very cold where you live is an EV really that good of an idea? Don't the batteries have problems with really cold weather anyway and then when you factor in having to run the car's heater from the battery too...
I'm in Ottawa where we will often see -25C, sometimes -30C and occasionally approach -40C. We had a very long and brutal winter this year. My range is rated as 150km and in the winter it will drop to maybe 110km,

It's a combination of the battery chemical reactions working less well at lower temperatures, winter tyres having higher rolling resistance, everything being stiffer at low temperatures and pushing through slush and snow. A lot of EVs have a heat pump setup which helps reduce the power consumption for heating in the winter. There is a battery heater to stop the chemicals freezing solid, the new Hyundai and Kia battery pack varies the cooling loop from the power controller to run through the battery and help it keep warm.

Another factor is if you plug in then you can preheat the car using the charging setup. Nothing beats getting in to a preheated car first thing in the morning when it is -15C or colder and it takes a lot less power to maintain the temperature than to warm it up initially.

just brew it! wrote:
Something else to consider when buying an EV... if you don't have an existing 240V outlet in the area where the vehicle will be parked, you need to factor in the cost of having one installed.
The EVSE and outlet is usually ~$1000 CAD as long as you have room in your panel and it isn't too long a run. You have a choice of a plug in EVSE with a NEMA 14-50 outlet or you can direct wire. N.B. Charging will draw a maximum of 32A but you need to wire the circuit as 40A because it is a continuous load under the Electrical Code.
 
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Re: To Lease or too buy an EV

Thu Jun 13, 2019 12:36 pm

Normally I wouldn't suggest leasing anything, but given the uncertainty of EV battery life running through repeated Canadian winters and the lousy resale value on both (a) Hyundai Group vehicles and (b) EVs in general, this might be an exception.

The usual caveat being that you're already financially secure before going into this transaction, i.e., you can afford to do this AND start over with another vehicle lease or purchase when the term expires.
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Re: To Lease or too buy an EV

Thu Jun 13, 2019 12:50 pm

Here's how leases work:
You pay the difference between the agreed-upon sale price of the vehicle and the predicted trade-in value at the end of the lease. Some vehicles depreciate faster than others, so that gap varies. At the end of your lease, the buyout price is simply the remaining balance (agreed-upon sale price minus lease payments). Otherwise, the dealership is technically just offering you a trade-in offer on the vehicle you've been leasing (same as if you bring it to a different brand dealership that chooses to purchase your used vehicle for resale (since they're going to stick it on their lot for ~$6k more than they paid you for it). If you paid more than the depreciation on the vehicle, you have equity, which the dealership should pass on to you if you choose to lease again, or buy a different vehicle.

There are some advantages of buying:
1) Generally there are more [frequent] incentives for buying. You might only get $2k knocked off MSRP on a lease, but maybe they can take off more than that on a purchase, depending on what current promotions are running.
2) If you plan on owning the vehicle for a long period of time. Leases generally go anywhere between a 40-60% vehicle depreciation (again depending on the vehicle, and this info is readily available), so say you're at an average of 50% depreciation, if you're looking at a 3 year lease, those equivalent payments will have "bought" the car in 6 years. Obviously, if you're missing out on the 6-year trade-in value of the vehicle if you'd bought it though.

Advantages of leasing:
1) You get a 3 year test drive. (with minimal additional expense to you if you choose to purchase at the end of the lease, see (1) above).
2) You can "upgrade" at the end of the lease to a newer vehicle with better tech.
3) Monthly payments are lower than purchasing [new].
4) Less/no maintenance.

I just got done leasing a $27,500 Subaru Legacy for $240/month + $2k down = 7.75 year payoff equivalent (from MSRP)
Currently leasing a Honda Civic with a 7 year payoff equivalent. (leases are higher right now because car prices are inflated, and there's probably some trepidation with self-driving cars being available in the next few years making "dumb" cars undesirable, but again, if the depreciation turns out to be less than they predicted, you get that $$ back in equity).
Pretty sure our Rav4 lease is sitting somewhere around 7.75 year payoff equivalent, but I can't remember the exact MSRP of that vehicle.
Last edited by DPete27 on Thu Jun 13, 2019 1:02 pm, edited 5 times in total.
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Re: To Lease or too buy an EV

Thu Jun 13, 2019 12:51 pm

Mine's been through 4 Ottawa winters with no battery issues and that's generally the case. What kills the batteries is heat - either high ambient temperatures or driving fast and then fast charging (50kW DC).
 
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Re: To Lease or too buy an EV

Thu Jun 13, 2019 1:09 pm

notfred wrote:
If you do decide to go used then there are some 2016 Soul EV Luxury models that were used as taxi's in Montreal that are currently available. High mileage (130k) but some of them have brand new battery packs - just replaced under warranty. See http://www.mykiasoulev.com/forum/viewto ... f=3&t=1051

That’s an interesting idea......depending on price of course. Since electric motors have exceptionally long lifespans, getting one with a new battery is almost like getting a car with a new drivetrain. I wouldn’t expect a ‘16 to have any rust issues yet, so that would leave suspension/steering/brakes as the main areas of concern. Well.....and interior condition of course.
 
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Re: To Lease or too buy an EV

Thu Jun 13, 2019 1:10 pm

just brew it! wrote:
Something else to consider when buying an EV... if you don't have an existing 240V outlet in the area where the vehicle will be parked, you need to factor in the cost of having one installed.


I just reno'd my garage and installed some 6/3 in there with a secondary outlet of 8/3. I'm ready : )
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Re: To Lease or too buy an EV

Thu Jun 13, 2019 1:13 pm

notfred wrote:
Mine's been through 4 Ottawa winters with no battery issues and that's generally the case. What kills the batteries is heat - either high ambient temperatures or driving fast and then fast charging (50kW DC).
The 2019 Leaf/Leaf+ still lacks battery thermal management, but thankfully the 2019 Kona does have this. So for the Ottawa summers, I should be good. I know our winters will drop the battery capacity (my friend who drives a 2017 Nissan Leaf here in Ottawa says about 25% loss, but I'd like to hear what you lose as well).
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Re: To Lease or too buy an EV

Thu Jun 13, 2019 1:15 pm

ludi wrote:
Normally I wouldn't suggest leasing anything, but given the uncertainty of EV battery life running through repeated Canadian winters and the lousy resale value on both (a) Hyundai Group vehicles and (b) EVs in general, this might be an exception.

The usual caveat being that you're already financially secure before going into this transaction, i.e., you can afford to do this AND start over with another vehicle lease or purchase when the term expires.


I've always just outright purchased a used 7 year old car and pretty much run it into the ground. But I've been a stingy bastard and have a pretty good paying job, so I'm kinda looking to treat myself. Although I just treated myself earlier in the year when I upgraded my bike...

*If* I were to purchase this vehicle, I'd probably ride it out right to the end when the rust (I rust proof every year) finally wins the battle, so I'd plan on having this 12-15 years.
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Re: To Lease or too buy an EV

Thu Jun 13, 2019 1:24 pm

Sargent Duck wrote:
ludi wrote:
Normally I wouldn't suggest leasing anything, but given the uncertainty of EV battery life running through repeated Canadian winters and the lousy resale value on both (a) Hyundai Group vehicles and (b) EVs in general, this might be an exception.

The usual caveat being that you're already financially secure before going into this transaction, i.e., you can afford to do this AND start over with another vehicle lease or purchase when the term expires.


I've always just outright purchased a used 7 year old car and pretty much run it into the ground. But I've been a stingy bastard and have a pretty good paying job, so I'm kinda looking to treat myself. Although I just treated myself earlier in the year when I upgraded my bike...

*If* I were to purchase this vehicle, I'd probably ride it out right to the end when the rust (I rust proof every year) finally wins the battle, so I'd plan on having this 12-15 years.


That's the thing. I don't see any real benefits to leasing, especially if you plan to keep the vehicle (in case you buy).

Leasing is "beneficial" if you're willing to trade money for a more frequent upgrade cycle. It always feels good to spend more money: you get better tech and cycle through cars better. But its strictly a luxury in my eyes. Driving the same car till 2029 doesn't really seem like a big problem to me. Only if you're a kind of person who wants to "buy new every 3 to 5 years" would I see leasing as a realistic option.

Recommendation: +1 to Buy from me. Even if super-awesome tech comes out 5 years from now, is it a big deal to wait a few years after that for the tech to solidify before buying the 2029 model? In the mean time, you can probably make due with the 2019 model of any electric vehicle.

I'd say "lease" only if you knew of some major technological innovation that would happen within 2 years. But I'm personally not aware of anything like that. If the scale of your "upgrades" is ~5-years out (with a few years after that before the technology matures), that's solidly within the "buy" territory IMO.
 
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Re: To Lease or too buy an EV

Thu Jun 13, 2019 2:24 pm

Sargent Duck wrote:
The 2019 Leaf/Leaf+ still lacks battery thermal management, but thankfully the 2019 Kona does have this. So for the Ottawa summers, I should be good. I know our winters will drop the battery capacity (my friend who drives a 2017 Nissan Leaf here in Ottawa says about 25% loss, but I'd like to hear what you lose as well).
So mine is rated at 150km, In the winter I see 110km to maybe 100km on the guessometer on the very coldest days where I have been driving down the 417 on the previous day - the Soul isn't aerodynamic and highway speeds seriously hurt its range.
 
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Re: To Lease or too buy an EV

Thu Jun 13, 2019 3:16 pm

notfred wrote:
Sargent Duck wrote:
The 2019 Leaf/Leaf+ still lacks battery thermal management, but thankfully the 2019 Kona does have this. So for the Ottawa summers, I should be good. I know our winters will drop the battery capacity (my friend who drives a 2017 Nissan Leaf here in Ottawa says about 25% loss, but I'd like to hear what you lose as well).
So mine is rated at 150km, In the winter I see 110km to maybe 100km on the guessometer on the very coldest days where I have been driving down the 417 on the previous day - the Soul isn't aerodynamic and highway speeds seriously hurt its range.



I live in Bayshore area so whether I'm going downtown or out to Kanata, I'll be on the 417. I also have a heavy foot so I'll likely be driving any EV around in "sport" mode and showing off the superior acceleration. Your decrease in battery seems to be within expectation. 100km is still more than enough for driving around Ottawa doing errands.
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Re: To Lease or too buy an EV

Thu Jun 13, 2019 4:18 pm

Battery tech for EVs is supposed to improve significantly shortly from what I know, but it still probably won't be a big deal. If what you get works for you as is, then there isn't a problem.

(I'm on an Ioniq HBR, wish I'd gotten a Niro since they're pretty much the same vehicle with a ground clearance difference. Can't go full EV yet, though it sounds awesome.)
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Re: To Lease or too buy an EV

Thu Jun 13, 2019 6:45 pm

Couple things:
A kona and a soul Ev are not the same. The soul Ev only gets like 200km per charge. Why it's on the market with that same old system for almost the same price as the kona is beyond me, especially since the new soul is based on the kona platform.

Buying probably makes sense, and they're cheaper in BC. I'm in Calgary and was considering purchasing a kona, but apparently they're not available here and if you bring them in KIA in Calgary won't service them.

The only other tricky part is that there is a huge waitlist for the kona. If you can get one in the near future I'd say go for it.
Tbh I think anyone buying a new ICE engine in 2019 knowing about the climate issues needs to give their head a shake. I'm fully in favor of a ban on ice engine sales by 2030.
 
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Re: To Lease or too buy an EV

Thu Jun 13, 2019 7:02 pm

sweatshopking wrote:
Tbh I think anyone buying a new ICE engine in 2019 knowing about the climate issues needs to give their head a shake. I'm fully in favor of a ban on ice engine sales by 2030.

Until you can convince all the old people that climate change is real, electric vehicles really are cheaper, and they'll be able to take them wherever they want without running out of juice...not likely. Hell my overlord is like "if you get one you're paying half the electric bill!" without having any idea of how much the actual cost of it is.

I'd rather plug-in hybrid myself, as I do a 70-80 mile route five days a week. Wasn't available when I bought though.
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Re: To Lease or too buy an EV

Thu Jun 13, 2019 7:10 pm

sweatshopking wrote:
Couple things:
A kona and a soul Ev are not the same. The soul Ev only gets like 200km per charge. Why it's on the market with that same old system for almost the same price as the kona is beyond me, especially since the new soul is based on the kona platform.

Buying probably makes sense, and they're cheaper in BC. I'm in Calgary and was considering purchasing a kona, but apparently they're not available here and if you bring them in KIA in Calgary won't service them.

The only other tricky part is that there is a huge waitlist for the kona. If you can get one in the near future I'd say go for it.

I put my name on the list with a $500 down deposit. I was told November'ish sometime (if I'm lucky maybe late October)

sweatshopking wrote:
Tbh I think anyone buying a new ICE engine in 2019 knowing about the climate issues needs to give their head a shake. I'm fully in favor of a ban on ice engine sales by 2030.


Agreed 100%, BUT...EV's are really expensive compared to the gas. A friend of mine makes $35k (CDN) a year and needed a new car. They got a 2018 Mazda 3 off the lot for $17k with 0% financing for 6 years. The cheapest brand new EV I could find was the Ford Focus EV at $34,999 (before the $5,000 federal rebate). As much as my friend wanted an EV, it was simply impossible.

Even this Kona will be pushing my finances to the limit. EV's are nearly double the price when compared to ICE. I would totally agree that anybody buying a $50,000 ICE needs to give their head a shake.
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Re: To Lease or too buy an EV

Thu Jun 13, 2019 7:12 pm

LostCat wrote:
sweatshopking wrote:
Tbh I think anyone buying a new ICE engine in 2019 knowing about the climate issues needs to give their head a shake. I'm fully in favor of a ban on ice engine sales by 2030.

Until you can convince all the old people that climate change is real, electric vehicles really are cheaper, and they'll be able to take them wherever they want without running out of juice...not likely. Hell my overlord is like "if you get one you're paying half the electric bill!" without having any idea of how much the actual cost of it is.

I'd rather plug-in hybrid myself, as I do a 70-80 mile route five days a week. Wasn't available when I bought though.


I've been getting a lot of the "what about the range?"
The Kona has 415km range and that usually silences them. But even then, the amount of times I have driven greater than 400km in the past 5 years has been...twice?
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LostCat
Minister of Gerbil Affairs
Posts: 2093
Joined: Thu Aug 26, 2004 6:18 am
Location: Alphanumeric symbols.

Re: To Lease or too buy an EV

Thu Jun 13, 2019 7:24 pm

Sargent Duck wrote:
I've been getting a lot of the "what about the range?"
The Kona has 415km range and that usually silences them. But even then, the amount of times I have driven greater than 400km in the past 5 years has been...twice?

yep...I'd probably have gotten by fine with the Ioniq EV and it barely has range! (Though, they claim it should usually last longer than the spec.) But then, if the electricity went out and I needed the car, or something else went screwy...meh.
Meow.
 
sweatshopking
Graphmaster Gerbil
Posts: 1463
Joined: Fri Aug 15, 2008 10:37 am

Re: To Lease or too buy an EV

Thu Jun 13, 2019 10:48 pm

I do drive far. I've driven roughly 10,000km in the last year between 3 trips. I'd still prefer an Ev. Charging stations are more available than most people think.
Yeah, costs are high, but electricity is a HELL of a lot cheaper than gasoline.
Fair enough about 17k vs 50k. That's a more reasonable situation, though I'd argue they probably should buy used to prevent a whole pile of new ice engines we gotta maintain for the next 15 years, but c est la vie.
 
tanker27
Gerbil Khan
Posts: 9313
Joined: Tue Feb 26, 2002 7:00 pm
Location: Georgia

Re: To Lease or too buy an EV

Fri Jun 14, 2019 6:40 am

DPete27 wrote:
There are some advantages of buying:
1) Generally there are more [frequent] incentives for buying. You might only get $2k knocked off MSRP on a lease, but maybe they can take off more than that on a purchase, depending on what current promotions are running.
2) If you plan on owning the vehicle for a long period of time. Leases generally go anywhere between a 40-60% vehicle depreciation (again depending on the vehicle, and this info is readily available), so say you're at an average of 50% depreciation, if you're looking at a 3 year lease, those equivalent payments will have "bought" the car in 6 years. Obviously, if you're missing out on the 6-year trade-in value of the vehicle if you'd bought it though.


You forgot one other one, Dealer incentives. And not all Dealers are the same so its best to shop around. Using the build-your-vehicle at the manufacturers website is a good starting point. You want all weather mats instead of carpet? How about all black rims? Or even a tow package? Fancy Side step bars? Or like a different audio head unit? Got kids and want screens in the headrest and a BR/DVD player? Travel back-roads frequently and need fog lights? Want darker window tint? All these are dealer incentives and are installed at the dealer. It all comes down to the haggle.

Rule number one when it comes down to car shopping: It costs a dealer money if they cannot move the inventory! Sure there are models and brands that are hot sellers (In my area its the Toyota Tacoma and Tundra, they sell like hot cakes and you'll probably pay a premium to get one) but there are others that are mid-to-low tier that don't move as fast and this is where you can you can practically steal it with everything you want in it.
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