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Buy or Lease a new EV

Buy
14 (40%)
Lease
11 (31%)
Neither and spend all available funds buying delicious cheese. (But I'd still need a vehicle to haul the cheese)
10 (29%)
 
Total votes: 35
 
notfred
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Re: To Lease or too buy an EV

Fri Jun 14, 2019 8:31 am

sweatshopking wrote:
A kona and a soul Ev are not the same. The soul Ev only gets like 200km per charge. Why it's on the market with that same old system for almost the same price as the kona is beyond me, especially since the new soul is based on the kona platform.
You are mixing up the 2019 and 2020 Soul EV models. The 2020 Soul EV is available now in some area in very limited supply and has the same sized 64kWh battery as the Kona and is rated at 243 miles 390 km range.

Sargent Duck wrote:
sweatshopking wrote:
The only other tricky part is that there is a huge waitlist for the kona. If you can get one in the near future I'd say go for it.

I put my name on the list with a $500 down deposit. I was told November'ish sometime (if I'm lucky maybe late October)
Things were similar back in 2015, I put a deposit down in April and was told 6 months but picked it up the day before the Labour Day weekend.

Sargent Duck wrote:
EV's are really expensive compared to the gas. A friend of mine makes $35k (CDN) a year and needed a new car. They got a 2018 Mazda 3 off the lot for $17k with 0% financing for 6 years. The cheapest brand new EV I could find was the Ford Focus EV at $34,999 (before the $5,000 federal rebate). As much as my friend wanted an EV, it was simply impossible.

Even this Kona will be pushing my finances to the limit. EV's are nearly double the price when compared to ICE.
Things made a lot more sense when we had the Ontario rebates. I did the math when I bought mine vs an ICE. Depending on the price of fuel it was about 6 years as the break even point.
 
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Re: To Lease or too buy an EV

Fri Jun 14, 2019 9:33 am

Am I the only one who starts singing "To Live And Die In LA" by Tupac in their head whenever reading this thread title?
 
Aether
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Re: To Lease or too buy an EV

Fri Jun 14, 2019 11:29 am

The financial case for a lease also depends on the financing deal you can get. Before I bought out the vehicle I am still driving, I leased it for 3 years. When I leased it, there was a 0% interest deal, so I did not pay any interest during those first 3 years. Also, as someone else pointed out, you get a 3-year test drive this way, which I like. (And since I was happy with the car, I kept it.)
 
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Re: To Lease or too buy an EV

Fri Jun 14, 2019 12:34 pm

sweatshopking wrote:
I do drive far. I've driven roughly 10,000km in the last year between 3 trips. I'd still prefer an Ev. Charging stations are more available than most people think.
Yeah, costs are high, but electricity is a HELL of a lot cheaper than gasoline.
Fair enough about 17k vs 50k. That's a more reasonable situation, though I'd argue they probably should buy used to prevent a whole pile of new ice engines we gotta maintain for the next 15 years, but c est la vie.

Someone's been drinking Musky Kool-Aid. The ICE isn't going anywhere for a long time yet, and the environmental costs of battery manufacturing are not trivial; we just don't see a lot of it reflected in current pricing because China is still willing to bear the externalities in exchange for economic growth. The major auto manufacturers are all going heavily into hybrids, though, which do seem to make the most sense.
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Re: To Lease or too buy an EV

Fri Jun 14, 2019 1:27 pm

ludi wrote:
Someone's been drinking Musky Kool-Aid. The ICE isn't going anywhere for a long time yet, and the environmental costs of battery manufacturing are not trivial; we just don't see a lot of it reflected in current pricing because China is still willing to bear the externalities in exchange for economic growth. The major auto manufacturers are all going heavily into hybrids, though, which do seem to make the most sense.


(not responding to ludi so much as expanding upon his remarks...)

Not to mention that electricity is generally generated by fossil fuels, and Alberta of all places is certainly no exception to this.

---

When people talk about "emissions" being better for electric cars even when that electricity is from coal/NG, wellllll, they mean your usual standard pollutants. Which is all well and good, but it's a bait-and-switch: They're not actually talking about CO2.

Which is, of course, the previously mentioned "climate issue"--if you are mad cause granddad is hacking up a lung and your kid is wheezing, different story.

The cleverer ones pursuing this deception get even more feisty--they'll talk about CO2 equivalents. Which is, of course, methane, a stupendous forcer. Now, you might wonder, wait, my car emits methane? Well, yes, a little, but the catalytic converter should make short work of it and it's trivial as component to overall anthropogenic-related CH4 release(lots of laws and engineering to make sure your car is emitting as few unburnt hydrocarbons of any stripe as possible--the catalytic converter is just the last stand).

No, what they are doing is counting total overall emissions by the production of gasoline all through the chain. I.e., the drilling, the transporting, the refining, the distributing, etc...

Which, gulp, is highly suspect, especially in a future of "MOAR SOLAR + WIND".

Why?

Because Natural Gas is what makes our dual boondoggles of wind + solar possible. Because, practically, when the sun ain't shining and the wind ain't blowing, gas-fired turbines can easily be spun up fast enough to respond.

WHICH, mind you, is part of the reason (admittedly the larger part is that we've decided coal was naughty, but still, all this wind+solar is part of it, and intrinsically so!) why NG went from like ~20 of our total generation to damn near 35% in the past 10 years.

Oh? What is natural gas?

Oh, right---METHANE. :roll:
 
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Re: To Lease or too buy an EV

Fri Jun 14, 2019 1:38 pm

Glorious, was that rant relevant to the OP's question about lease vs. buy?
You may be interested in researching a few things for your own entertainment:
1) Compare the total thermal efficiency of a large-scale fixed power plant vs. that of a automobile's powertrain.
2) U.S. natural gas prices have been low enough to make it an attractive fuel for power generation and an attractive feedstock for chemical manufacturing. We didn't move away from coal just because its pollution is destroying the planet. We moved away from coal mostly because natural gas is CHEAPER. Natural gas is cheap as a result of hydraulic fracturing's dramatic increase in petroleum production.


I have always driven enough miles to make any automobile leasing agreement a hugely money-losing proposition, so it's a no-brainer for me to buy instead of leasing.

Electric vehicles are definitely the future. The question is whether the future is here yet or not. I believe that for most of us, currently-available electric vehicles are "good enough." You just have to figure out if the vehicle pricing vs. fuel costs and incentive subsidies available in your area make it a good financial choice for you.
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The Egg
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Re: To Lease or too buy an EV

Fri Jun 14, 2019 1:49 pm

ludi wrote:
Someone's been drinking Musky Kool-Aid. The ICE isn't going anywhere for a long time yet, and the environmental costs of battery manufacturing are not trivial; we just don't see a lot of it reflected in current pricing because China is still willing to bear the externalities in exchange for economic growth. The major auto manufacturers are all going heavily into hybrids, though, which do seem to make the most sense.

It'll never be a one-size-fits-all, but when used in the correct application, EVs can be very successful and save alot of money. Some examples would be: City buses, taxis, city UPS delivery, and certain specific short trucking routes.

I don't see how something like long-haul trucking would ever work, though. At least not without significant additional infrastructure.
 
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Re: To Lease or too buy an EV

Fri Jun 14, 2019 1:53 pm

JustAnEngineer wrote:
Glorious, was that rant relevant to the OP's question about lease vs. buy?


Was the previous digression about how the ICE is kaput and EV use imperative due to "climate issues" relevant?

Where were you then, internet-topic cop?

JustAnEngineer wrote:
You may be interested in researching a few things for your own entertainment:


You may be interested in researching my own posts, in which I'm obviously familiar with both of your points.

Or do you want me to research if you were a participant in any of those discussions and are therefore annoyingly impugning me when you ought to know better?

JustAnEngineer wrote:
1) Compare the total thermal efficiency of a large-scale fixed power plant vs. that of a automobile's powertrain.


Irrelevant to both the question of "lease versus buy" as well as "climate issues".

Very relevant towards falsely insinuating I don't know what I am talking about (despite not disputing anything I actually said) by implying that I don't already know such an obvious fact.

JustAnEngineer wrote:
U.S. natural gas prices have been low enough to make it an attractive fuel for power generation and an attractive feedstock for chemical manufacturing. We didn't move away from coal because its pollution is destroying the planet. We moved away from coal because natural gas is CHEAPER. Natural gas is cheap mostly as a result of hydraulic fracturing's dramatic increase in petroleum production.


There is a concerted regulatory regime towards reducing the use of coal. This is a factual point.

The relevant degree of importance of this? I mean, indisputably opinion, and this all pursuant to a literally parenthetical aside. It is not my thesis, nor am I normatively wed to the idea: sorry if I got a little too snide with "naughty", but I have repeatedly said that burning coal isn't remotely optimal in other posts.

I have no problem with natural gas, and like I said, I am mostly being descriptive here: the point is that WE ARE USING MORE NATURAL GAS TO MAKE ELECTRICITY.

Do I have to spell it out?

Oh, ok, fine: If the biggest part of the CO2--with the very important subscript of "e" appended-- difference between EV and ICE is the escape of methane in, for instance, the GREET model, the dramatic recent increase of native methane use in electricity generation makes any distinction absurd--NG production is virtually always concomitant with crude.


---

Yeah, but why clarify and try to explain anything. That's ranting, right?

Why not just ask if I'm familiar with the carnot cycle or electrons next. What an effective rejoinder.
 
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Re: To Lease or too buy an EV

Fri Jun 14, 2019 2:00 pm

The Egg wrote:
It'll never be a one-size-fits-all, but when used in the correct application, EVs can be very successful and save alot of money. Some examples would be: City buses, taxis, city UPS delivery, and certain specific short trucking routes.


And to be clear, I don't have any problems with EVs or with this statement.

---

I do have a problem with the contemptible implication that everything in life is binary and that just because one is aware of certain truths + realities that either irreversibly commits them to a "side" in some presuppositious meta-argument or precludes them from ultimately favoring such a "side" when evaluating the totality of all factors.

But there I go ranting again...
 
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Re: To Lease or too buy an EV

Fri Jun 14, 2019 2:54 pm

Two thoughts:

#1. Only current drivers of an EV should be allowed to make a buy or don't buy comment about an EV. Those without experience are often full of FUD.
I have a 2013 Leaf SL that we bought in 2015. So a couple years old with 13,xxx miles on it. It's the SL so it has most of the option features including leather seats, DC quick charger, navigation, bluetooth, etc. The Leaf is not a luxury car by any means....but it sure feels like it in many ways. The EV torque is instant (minus Nissan's software limit at takeoff) and the car is QUIET and smooth. Punch the 'gas' pedal and it just goes. No straining engine noises, no shift points, nothing. Like the freakin warp drive from your imagination.
When I sit in the drive through or in traffic....that's it. I'm sitting not burning dinosaurs unless I'm running the heat or AC.
My EV only has about a 70 mile practical range now as it has degraded a little bit this last year or so. But it gets me anywhere around the KC metro I need to go for the most part; sometimes it does take verifying a location of one of the many charging points. The 230-240 mile range of the Kona would completely eliminate any problems. For the occasional trip of longer range we have another vehicle and bought the car fully prepared to rent a car for the weekend if it made sense....4 years and that hasn't been an issue.
I am already planning to buy another EV. I hope many of you buy that Kona so they can easily be found on the used market here in a year or two

#2. Lease vs buy (original question)
It's a vehicle...doesn't matter EV or gas. Same fundamentals apply.
Which one has the lowest total cost?
Buy: Total of down payment + (monthly payment amount x months) = Total to own car at end of period. Obviously, putting the car an a 3 year vs 5 year plan will save interest.

Lease: Total of down payment (they might call this many things but its whatever up front) + (monthly payment amount x months) + residual value (what you pay to buy car at end of lease and add more if you will need to finance final purchase)

Do whichever is lower if you want to own the car at the end of the lease. Simple.

If you just want to walk away and have nothing (or at least no car) at the end then the comparison is this:
Buy: Total of down payment + (monthly payment amount x months) - Trade In Value of car(use the lease residual value for a far target) = Total cost to use car for period
Lease: Total of down payment (they might call this many things but its whatever up front) + (monthly payment amount x months) = Total cost to use car for period
Again do whatever is lower


Congrats on your decision to join the EV club. And the rest of you ICE drivers.....come join us. You'll like it. (Yeah I know there are use cases that don't work like pulling a trailer...but give Rivian a couple years)
 
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Re: To Lease or too buy an EV

Fri Jun 14, 2019 5:34 pm

Have you given a Tesla Model 3 a drive yet? It's the best EV so far imho. I think they got an "under the counter" $35k model if you call.

They don't offer some software features on that secret menu model, optional stuff that comes standard normally - like advanced navigation etc - but you can upgrade to all the (software) bells and whistles at a later time for a couple thousand or so when you feel like it, a push of the button basically.

Good way to get it on the cheap and then upgrade as needed later on.

They got a buy or lease program too, but I would go with buy personally. Unlike most EVs it seems the Teslas keep their value, surprisingly even better than legacy vehicles.
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Re: To Lease or too buy an EV

Fri Jun 14, 2019 6:09 pm

The concern with Tesla is whether the company will still be around to stand behind their products 2 years from now.
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Re: To Lease or too buy an EV

Sat Jun 15, 2019 2:38 am

Glorious wrote:
Not to mention that electricity is generally generated by fossil fuels, and Alberta of all places is certainly no exception to this.


Ontario is MOSTLY green. Generally speaking, an EV in Ontario isn't transferring the pollution from the tail pipe to the power plant.


videobits wrote:

Lease vs buy (original question)
It's a vehicle...doesn't matter EV or gas. Same fundamentals apply.
Which one has the lowest total cost?
Buy: Total of down payment + (monthly payment amount x months) = Total to own car at end of period. Obviously, putting the car an a 3 year vs 5 year plan will save interest.

Lease: Total of down payment (they might call this many things but its whatever up front) + (monthly payment amount x months) + residual value (what you pay to buy car at end of lease and add more if you will need to finance final purchase)

Do whichever is lower if you want to own the car at the end of the lease. Simple.

If you just want to walk away and have nothing (or at least no car) at the end then the comparison is this:
Buy: Total of down payment + (monthly payment amount x months) - Trade In Value of car(use the lease residual value for a far target) = Total cost to use car for period
Lease: Total of down payment (they might call this many things but its whatever up front) + (monthly payment amount x months) = Total cost to use car for period
Again do whatever is lower


Congrats on your decision to join the EV club. And the rest of you ICE drivers.....come join us. You'll like it. (Yeah I know there are use cases that don't work like pulling a trailer...but give Rivian a couple years)
.

If cost were at play, ICE would win by a long shot. $17,000 at 0% for a base Mazda 3 vs $35,000 at 3.99% for a Ford Focus EV. No, I want an EV for the luxury, for the lack of mechanical issues, for not having to fill up in -35C weather, to help do my part for saving the planet

wierdo wrote:
Have you given a Tesla Model 3 a drive yet? It's the best EV so far imho. I think they got an "under the counter" $35k model if you call.
I did look into it and gawd, I'd LOVE to drive a Tesla. Not worried about the company being around in 2 years, they will be. But price wise, it's actually $55k (CDN) purchase price then with "gas savings" they advertise it's down to $43k. The Kona is a much better deal me thinks.
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Re: To Lease or too buy an EV

Sat Jun 15, 2019 8:07 am

ludi wrote:
Someone's been drinking Musky Kool-Aid. The ICE isn't going anywhere for a long time yet, and the environmental costs of battery manufacturing are not trivial; we just don't see a lot of it reflected in current pricing because China is still willing to bear the externalities in exchange for economic growth. The major auto manufacturers are all going heavily into hybrids, though, which do seem to make the most sense.

I didn't say it was going anywhere, i said it should disappear. it's unreliable vs electric motors, inefficient, and pollutes heavily.

perhaps you can post some info on the total pollution costs of electric vs ICE, as everything i can find does say that while rare earth mineral pollution is a problem electric cars are still cleaner than ICE in the long run, but every year the grid gets cleaner meaning your EV pollution drops. Yes, electric pollutes. it pollutes less than gas however, by a significant margin, and equating the two is either dishonest or ignorant of the reality.
And while coal sucks, and must be abandoned as soon as possible, Alberta has committed to being off of it by 2030. Thanks for explaining about natural gas. Being as i only live in Alberta (where oil and gas is discussed like the weather everywhere else) and worked on Natural Gas wells as a rough neck it was the first i'd heard of it. As mentioned OP is in Ontario, which largely uses nuclear and hydro.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... hyperdrive
Even if we are burning coal some research suggests it's still cleaner than gas.
TBH, i have no idea why anyone would be defending ICE for the majority of people still. Come on guys, it's almost 2020 and the status quo has to change.
 
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Re: To Lease or too buy an EV

Sat Jun 15, 2019 12:33 pm

Usacomp2k3 wrote:
I agree with K-L-Waster that the "EV" aspect of the car doesn't really factor into to buy vs lease. I don't like leases at all for personal vehicles. I also think anything more than a 3 year note is very financially risky. How about finding a few year old Leaf? I have a good friend who bought one for $11k.
Another one in favor of buying vs. leasing for personal vehicles.

I have a Prius. The traction battery lasted over 12 years and did need to be replaced. The cost for that was steep, $3500 if memory serves. But I knew that would happen at some point and I didn't have to buy a new car. I hate hate hate buying new cars. I hate the process, I hate the people I have to deal with, I hate the financing, I hate the trade-in, I hate the "I'll have to talk to my manager", and basically, when I have to buy a new car, I pretty much hate the world. So $3500 was a good expenditure that allowed me to keep the car another 3-4 years and delay that dreaded time.

Since then, I've put new tires on it, changed the oil (I only use Amsoil) and now I have around almost 185,000 miles on the car.

  • I've replaced the gel 12-volt battery 3 or 4 times.
  • I've had ONE (1, uno) brake job. Not for worn pads, either. The pad attachment hardware was just starting to crumble due to age, not usage.
  • I've had Goodyears, Pirellis, Firestones, Falkens, and now Coopers on that car. I do go through tires, and the car has been worth it.
  • I've never replaced the water pump. If this were a GM, I'd have replaced it 2 or 3 times by now.
  • I've never had any transmission or clutch work done. The car doesn't have those things.

The car has been reliable and I still like driving it. I do need to plan for replacement, however. The only things I need to budget for now is timing chain service (if I'm going to keep it longer), or (better yet) a fat down payment on a new car. I'm thinking about getting an EV too, but yeah, I won't lease.
 
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Re: To Lease or too buy an EV

Sat Jun 15, 2019 1:38 pm

ludi wrote:
the environmental costs of battery manufacturing are not trivial

Manufacturing pollution in this instance is a LOT less than the continuous pollution vehicles spit out. It might take three or four years (I did read about this, but I'm not going to hunt it down) before the total is lower but still.
wierdo wrote:
Have you given a Tesla Model 3 a drive yet? It's the best EV so far imho. I think they got an "under the counter" $35k model if you call.

Consumer Reports says a lot of Tesla owners report quality issues, so I'm not sure they're a great call. They used to recommend them.
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Re: To Lease or too buy an EV

Sat Jun 15, 2019 1:55 pm

I found this video to be extremely helpful in the whole EV vs ICE TOTAL pollution debate: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6RhtiPefVzM

It is a fantastic video and really breaks everything down.
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Re: To Lease or too buy an EV

Sat Jun 15, 2019 4:57 pm

The Egg wrote:
Am I the only one who starts singing "To Live And Die In LA" by Tupac in their head whenever reading this thread title?


Last I knew, "To Live And Die In LA" was sung by Wang Chung, for the movie soundtrack. Did Tupac cover it, or write a different song by the same name?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DM_FGAL0-Mg

(Yes, I'm old...)

To speak to the original topic, there is almost never a time when, for personal use, you come out ahead on a lease. It's a pig in a poke...they take the pig (your money) and you get the poke. As others have said, don't let EV figure into this; whether it's an EV or a gas car or a plug-in hybrid, leases are leases. What you want is a reliable car that you own for as long as is reasonable, so you get the most value for your money. Leases appeal to people who always like the new-car smell, and they're the same reason that US car dealers (and makers) have always tried to get people into the "Buy New Every Two" or three...(in which case they often get a trade-in at a pittance of its value and get a profit there in its resale and in the sale of a new vehicle). If you have a business and can write off a lease for tax purposes, that's one thing, but you're far better off buying a vehicle and keeping it as clean as you can in the winter with a basic car wash (with underbody flush) monthly package than a lease.

https://www.moneyunder30.com/why-you-sh ... ease-a-car
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Re: To Lease or too buy an EV

Sat Jun 15, 2019 5:24 pm

Sargent Duck wrote:
I found this video to be extremely helpful in the whole EV vs ICE TOTAL pollution debate: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6RhtiPefVzM

It is a fantastic video and really breaks everything down.

Good watch. What is omitted, though, is that he compares a vastly diverse fleet of ICE vehicles to a fleet of EVs that are mostly small commuter cars. 90% of my personal car's commuting could be done with a Nissan Leaf (my boss has one and loves it, I've ridden along a few times and it would be viable), but it's that other 10% that causes a problem -- longer trips between areas that don't have electric charging infrastructure. I don't even want to know what kind of fight would be required with the HOA to get EV charging infrastructure installed on our townhome carports, and I know that none of the underground utility infrastructure in our 1970s-vintage community is ready for it, either. Ergo, I drive a 12yo Corolla that I purchased used for 1/8 the current retail price of a Kona EV.

All of that applies triple for the 300-ish residents of the apartment complex across the street.

Pure EVs are great options for upper-class suburbanites with garages, particularly those who can afford to keep a spare vehicle around (or have ready rental car access) for the use cases that a small passenger vehicle can't cover. But in the real world, an awful lot of people have limited vehicle options and park against curbs or in open lots when they're at home, and being able to restore 1.7 billion joules into said vehicle during a 5-minute gas station stop is a huge asset. So until 30kWh supercaps with sub-10-minute charging times become viable at ICE prices...hybrids.
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Re: To Lease or too buy an EV

Sat Jun 15, 2019 7:03 pm

Hydrocarbons all the way for me. I don't do stop and go for work driving, so hybrid parts are just along for the ride and are dead weight. Too bad VW killed diesel, as it would make perfect sense for my driving pattern.
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Re: To Lease or too buy an EV

Sat Jun 15, 2019 8:00 pm

Captain Ned wrote:
Hydrocarbons all the way for me. I don't do stop and go for work driving, so hybrid parts are just along for the ride and are dead weight. Too bad VW killed diesel, as it would make perfect sense for my driving pattern.


Does Chevy still make the Cruze Diesel? The urea keeps the NOx emissions down, and mileage is supposed to be excellent. It's probably no less reliable than VW either, as VW has more than its fair share of electrical issues.

As for me, a Tesla 3 is too expensive, and many other hybrids either are or perform poorly. I'm happy with my 2016 Honda Civic. ULEV-II, good fuel economy, and even the non-turboed 2.0 i-VTEC is reasonably fun to drive.
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Re: To Lease or too buy an EV

Sat Jun 15, 2019 9:41 pm

Captain Ned wrote:
Too bad VW killed diesel, as it would make perfect sense for my driving pattern.

They killed it because it was a completely toxic mess...


As for curb parking, I live in Canada where we all run electricity to the curb so that our block heaters work in the winter. It's just how we operate. Obviously EVs are still expensive, nobody is disputing that. Whether they're vastly more expensive in the LONG run depends on where you live and what kind of electricity prices you have. Whether they work for you in your own town again depends, though in Canada charging stations are becoming pretty abundant. Some of the less developed American states may lag behind the more developed world, but that's not unusual.
 
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Re: To Lease or too buy an EV

Sun Jun 16, 2019 11:16 pm

sweatshopking wrote:
As for curb parking, I live in Canada where we all run electricity to the curb so that our block heaters work in the winter. It's just how we operate.

Yeah, I can see where the Canadian winter would make that advantageous. But you're talking about a country with a population smaller than some US states, where most of the population lives in roughly five metropolitan areas within 80 miles of the US border. That doesn't necessarily scale to a country where both the population and the populated area are 10x larger.

Obviously EVs are still expensive, nobody is disputing that. Whether they're vastly more expensive in the LONG run depends on where you live and what kind of electricity prices you have. Whether they work for you in your own town again depends, though in Canada charging stations are becoming pretty abundant. Some of the less developed American states may lag behind the more developed world, but that's not unusual.

Nice troll! As it happens, I live on the outskirts of one of the US' fastest-growing cities and can find multiple EV charging stations within a few miles of my home. I also work in the power industry so EV adoption is ultimately money in my pocket, but from data I can find on Wikipedia and elsewhere, the combined stock of EVs and Hybrids in Canada is somewhere around 2-3%, or IOW about the same percentage as the US. EV sales are increasing rapidly every year, and in time will represent a large portion of the fleet, but for comparison, Toyota sells just as many Corollas in a year as the combined sales of EVs from all vendors. We have a ways to go before the all-EV future gets here.
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Re: To Lease or too buy an EV

Mon Jun 17, 2019 5:10 am

ludi wrote:
You're talking about a country with a population smaller than some US states, where most of the population lives in roughly five metropolitan areas within 80 miles of the US border. That doesn't necessarily scale to a country where both the population and the populated area are 10x larger.
I believe that you've got that backwards. Most of Canada is very sparsely populated compared to the rest of the world, making the rural challenges even more severe than in the U.S.

Canada has a population of 35 million in 9,985,000 km² = 3½ people per km². That's about 20% higher population density than Australia's. New Jersey has a population of 9 million living in 19,200 square kilometers = 470 /km². Colorado has 136 /km². The only U.S. states with a lower population density than Canada are Montana, Wyoming and Alaska. Singapore has a population of 5.6 million in 720 km² = 7800 /km². Hong Kong comes in at 6700 /km².
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Re: To Lease or too buy an EV

Mon Jun 17, 2019 7:29 am

I think you missed his point. Yes the net density by province is lower, but most of the population they do have is concentrated in a strip fairly close to the southern border. You can serve a pretty large percentage of the population by putting a charging network there.
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Re: To Lease or too buy an EV

Mon Jun 17, 2019 9:21 am

just brew it! wrote:
I think you missed his point. Yes the net density by province is lower, but most of the population they do have is concentrated in a strip fairly close to the southern border. You can serve a pretty large percentage of the population by putting a charging network there.


For what it's worth I've seen a few Walmarts sticking charging stations in the lot. If they fully committed to doing that at every store interstate highway recharging would be resolved.
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Re: To Lease or too buy an EV

Mon Jun 17, 2019 9:44 am

just brew it! wrote:
I think you missed his point. Yes the net density by province is lower, but most of the population they do have is concentrated in a strip fairly close to the southern border. You can serve a pretty large percentage of the population by putting a charging network there.



Agreed. 90% of Canada's population is within an hour drive of the US border which makes for great East-West travel along the border. Setting up an EV charging network would be much easier to do in Canada than in the US where you'd have many "hubs".
In my province of Ontario, we have "En-route" stations every couple of hundred km's along the major highway. Once these get charging stations, it would be quite easy for an extended range EV to get from end of the province to the other.
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Re: To Lease or too buy an EV

Mon Jun 17, 2019 9:50 am

Sargent Duck wrote:
Once these get charging stations, it would be quite easy for an extended range EV to get from end of the province to the other.

I'm waiting for the ubiquity of 400 miles range in 10 minutes or less. If you want to break the hold hydrocarbons have on transportation, you have to meet/exceed hydrocarbon range/fueling time.
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Re: To Lease or too buy an EV

Mon Jun 17, 2019 10:08 am

Captain Ned wrote:
Sargent Duck wrote:
Once these get charging stations, it would be quite easy for an extended range EV to get from end of the province to the other.

I'm waiting for the ubiquity of 400 miles range in 10 minutes or less. If you want to break the hold hydrocarbons have on transportation, you have to meet/exceed hydrocarbon range/fueling time.

I suspect that in order to achieve that with EVs, we will need standardized battery packs which can be swapped instead of charged, with the discharged packs being recharged "offline".

What's the current range for hydrogen fuel cell tech? Might be easier to achieve fast refueling time with that.
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Re: To Lease or too buy an EV

Mon Jun 17, 2019 10:18 am

just brew it! wrote:
What's the current range for hydrogen fuel cell tech? Might be easier to achieve fast refueling time with that.

According to this Car and Driver article, the 2017 Honda Clarity promises 360 miles, but C&D saw 260 at most on the dashboard. They were getting 55 to 60 miles/kg H2 on a 5.5kg tank. Fillups took 3-5 minutes.

https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/a1 ... ve-review/
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