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Buy or Lease a new EV

Buy
14 (40%)
Lease
11 (31%)
Neither and spend all available funds buying delicious cheese. (But I'd still need a vehicle to haul the cheese)
10 (29%)
 
Total votes: 35
 
LostCat
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Re: To Lease or too buy an EV

Tue Jun 25, 2019 5:59 pm

wierdo wrote:
I guess it depends on your usage case, some lifestyle examples to consider:
- Living in an apartment without plug access vs having your own home with a laundry plug in the garage.
- How often do you go out of town, 99 percent of your driving is under 50 or 100 miles? Or the other way around?
- Does the EV you're looking at have good access to a reliable charger network for long trips and such?
- Does your area have good incentives? Down here EVs qualify for a $2500 EV rebate for example.

Year round delivery job with occasionally poor roads in the winter, 80mi/day. Not even remotely interested in rebates unless they are *instant.*

By the time I'd be ready to buy there'll be a lot more options I'm sure. Right now I don't plan to do EV until my hometown gets a little friendlier with chargers and the SUV options get a little cheaper, unless I find a better job or we actually move closer to town.
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Re: To Lease or too buy an EV

Tue Jun 25, 2019 10:53 pm

I just came across this map (https://www.plugshare.com/) that lists charging stations available to the public all over the world. Pretty neat. I don’t know much about this stuff, but it’ll probably answer any questions you have about plug availability.
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Re: To Lease or too buy an EV

Wed Jun 26, 2019 12:15 am

This video seems pertinent regarding charging for apartment dwellers, showing one person's success / luck in getting a unit installed :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QQqhoM3fDrQ
 
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Re: To Lease or too buy an EV

Wed Jun 26, 2019 12:06 pm

After studying the map it looks like an EV is easy to fuel in cities, but outside of major metropolitan areas you have to be deliberate about planning your route to circuitously include charging stations, unless you realistically get 300 miles per charge.
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Re: To Lease or too buy an EV

Wed Jun 26, 2019 12:33 pm

LostCat wrote:
Year round delivery job with occasionally poor roads in the winter, 80mi/day. Not even remotely interested in rebates unless they are *instant.*

By the time I'd be ready to buy there'll be a lot more options I'm sure. Right now I don't plan to do EV until my hometown gets a little friendlier with chargers and the SUV options get a little cheaper, unless I find a better job or we actually move closer to town.

Yeah if you don't know where you're gonna plug the car then that's gonna be a problem. I'm hopeful that will resolve itself for the next time, at least it's allot easier than installing gas stations this time around, even basic dryer power outlets can be all that's needed.

I did this as an exercise with that 80mi/day figure for fun. I plugged that in this (very basic) calculator to get a rough idea:
https://teslanomics.co/tesla-model-3-fu ... alculator/

I plugged 2400 miles per month there to try to match your description, and as a placeholder I went with 30mpg for your current vehicle and Kansas for the state, so you may need to tweak those parameters. I got roughly $1682 in savings per year from that usage pattern and those placeholders, not counting maintenance savings on top.

The Bolt, Kona and Niro can also benefit in a similar fashion, just adjust for their mpg EPA ratings to get a similar idea. So yeah, by the time things improve in your area you could be looking at saving thousands of dollars in the long run with any of these cars.

I hope that helps at least get you curious to research EVs as an option, or keep them in mind for the future, they're pretty awesome technology.
Last edited by wierdo on Wed Jun 26, 2019 12:38 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: To Lease or too buy an EV

Wed Jun 26, 2019 12:35 pm

FireGryphon wrote:
After studying the map it looks like an EV is easy to fuel in cities, but outside of major metropolitan areas you have to be deliberate about planning your route to circuitously include charging stations, unless you realistically get 300 miles per charge.


I know I'm beating a dead horse, but that's not even the biggest problem.

I mean, if you drive 40 miles out of your way just to get to website-listed charging site with 5% left, what exactly do you do if you see 4 empty bolt-holes and an empty square of slightly-lighter colored concrete?

Heck, you even find an attendent:

"oh, that thing? Yeah, they tore that out 6 months ago."

"But the website said..."

"Cool story bro. 'Bout all I can do is get triple A for you. Haha get it? AAA? Like the battery? Sorry, sorry, rough audience."

---

I mean that's a terrible, terrible joke. But, honestly, this whole scenario & situation is even worse, and it's only more obvious...
 
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Re: To Lease or too buy an EV

Wed Jun 26, 2019 12:40 pm

wierdo wrote:
Yeah if you don't know where you're gonna plug the car then that's gonna be a problem. I'm hopeful that will resolve itself for the next time, at least it's allot easier than installing gas stations this time around, just need power outlets.


Yeah, OK.

If this is just level 1 charging, as "just need power outlets" would imply, um, dude, you're now staying the night.

wierdo wrote:
I plugged 2400 miles per month there to try to match your description, and as a placeholder I went with 30mpg for your current vehicle and Kansas for the state, so you may need to tweak those parameters. I got roughly $1682 in savings per year from that usage pattern and those placeholders.


Site literally says "For entertainment purposes only"

And, while it is sort of entertaining, you probably shouldn't be using this for any kind of actual financial comparison?
 
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Re: To Lease or too buy an EV

Wed Jun 26, 2019 1:12 pm

Glorious wrote:
That's kinda what people do when they get home. They stay the night, and wake up the next day to a full tank every morning. It's not a car anymore, just a giant cellphone on wheels.

A dryer outlet will be good enough for most typical use cases, around 20-30 miles per hour. If he uses 80 miles a day then he'll have it full long before he wakes up.

Outside of the typical home scenario, we have some malls, diners and motels here with such plugs, or nicer level 2 ones if they get fancy. They're usually free or waived with a purchase because it brings in good business for little in investment cost.

A 120v outlet may not be very practical though, gives you a few miles an hour. That wouldn't cut it.

Glorious wrote:
Site literally says "For entertainment purposes only"

And, while it is sort of entertaining, you probably shouldn't be using this for any kind of actual financial comparison?

You're not wrong, it's gonna be a ballpark, hence why I called it very basic. It's not meant to be taken as gospel, could be a little more could be a little less. The fact that it breaks it down by state makes it obvious, as gas and electric rates can vary even by city within that state.

The goal is to just give a general idea of what to expect, and then people can do their own personalized homework to work out what best fits their case and addresses their needs from there.
Last edited by wierdo on Wed Jun 26, 2019 5:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: To Lease or too buy an EV

Wed Jun 26, 2019 1:34 pm

wierdo wrote:
Glorious wrote:
That's kinda what people do when they get home. They stay the night, and wake up the next day to a full tank every morning. It's not a car anymore, just a giant cellphone on wheels.


Not only did I not say that, it doesn't appear that anyone has said that in this entire thread.

Are you... uh, are you doing OK?

wierdo wrote:
A dryer outlet will be good enough for most typical use cases, around 20-30 miles per hour. If he uses 80 miles a day then he'll have it full long before he wakes up.


Meanwhile, in this particular discussion (which is evidently -not- the one you're following, nevermind this thread itself) we're talking about "but outside of major metropolitan areas you have to be deliberate about planning your route".

So, as I said, you sure you're feeling alright there, man?

wierdo wrote:
You're not wrong, it's gonna be a ballpark, hence why I called it very basic. It's not meant to be taken as gospel, could be a little more could be a little less. The fact that it breaks it down by state makes it obvious, as gas and electric rates can vary even by city within that state.

The goal is to just give a general idea of what to expect, and then people can do their own personalized homework to work out what best fits their case and addresses their needs from there.


You went down to the precision of a single dollar.

As I said, yes, I suppose it -was- entertaining after all... :roll:
 
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Re: To Lease or too buy an EV

Wed Jun 26, 2019 2:24 pm

Glorious wrote:
(being a pedantic clown as usual)

Look old man, this is a conversation between civilized adults, if you have nothing useful to say, take a step back and stop harrassing others. It's getting seriously pathetic.

Consider yourself ignored.
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Re: To Lease or too buy an EV

Wed Jun 26, 2019 2:31 pm

wierdo wrote:
if you have nothing useful to say


You'll just write something up, and then falsely quote me as saying it?

And when I object to this, you'll refer to "civil" conversation, denigrate me, and then say you'll ignore me?


How about you, uh, correct your post? Say "my mistake", at the very least?
 
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Re: To Lease or too buy an EV

Wed Jun 26, 2019 4:28 pm

Excepting the Mac vs. PC debate, this thread has some useful EV info.
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LostCat
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Re: To Lease or too buy an EV

Wed Jun 26, 2019 5:51 pm

wierdo wrote:
Yeah if you don't know where you're gonna plug the car then that's gonna be a problem. I'm hopeful that will resolve itself for the next time, at least it's allot easier than installing gas stations this time around, even basic dryer power outlets can be all that's needed.

I did this as an exercise with that 80mi/day figure for fun. I plugged that in this (very basic) calculator to get a rough idea:
https://teslanomics.co/tesla-model-3-fu ... alculator/

I plugged 2400 miles per month there to try to match your description, and as a placeholder I went with 30mpg for your current vehicle and Kansas for the state, so you may need to tweak those parameters. I got roughly $1682 in savings per year from that usage pattern and those placeholders, not counting maintenance savings on top.

The Bolt, Kona and Niro can also benefit in a similar fashion, just adjust for their mpg EPA ratings to get a similar idea. So yeah, by the time things improve in your area you could be looking at saving thousands of dollars in the long run with any of these cars.

I hope that helps at least get you curious to research EVs as an option, or keep them in mind for the future, they're pretty awesome technology.


I have plenty of places to plug it in. I just don't fancy spending $5000 extra to save around a dollar every time I would've filled up.
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Re: To Lease or too buy an EV

Wed Jun 26, 2019 6:20 pm

Err, more than that, but still...I'm not in the mood to crunch numbers :p
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Re: To Lease or too buy an EV

Wed Jun 26, 2019 6:42 pm

LostCat wrote:
I have plenty of places to plug it in. I just don't fancy spending $5000 extra to save around a dollar every time I would've filled up.

The ROI on hybrids is also similar. Our Sienna has a hybrid option but it would take years to pay off the cost of the option. Especially when I fill up for $2.28/gallon.
 
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Re: To Lease or too buy an EV

Wed Jun 26, 2019 8:02 pm

LostCat wrote:
https://teslanomics.co/tesla-model-3-fu ... alculator/ I just don't fancy spending $5000 extra to save around a dollar every time I would've filled up.
. For me, it’s 70 fill-ups a year at $28 each, and I’d spend less than half as much on electricity, saving more than $1000 per year. It’ll be a lot more savings if gasoline goes back up above $2.15/gallon.

P.S. iPhone’s auto-incorrect may be possessed by Satan. Are electric vehicles also susceptible to demonic possession?
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Re: To Lease or too buy an EV

Wed Jun 26, 2019 8:20 pm

JustAnEngineer wrote:
LostCat wrote:
https://teslanomics.co/tesla-model-3-fu ... alculator/ I just don't fancy spending $5000 extra to save around a dollar every time I would've filled up.
. For me, it’s 70 fill-ups a year at $28 each, and I’d spend less than half as much on electricity, saving more than $1000 per year. It’ll be a lot more savings if gasoline goes back up above $2.15/gallon.

P.S. iPhone’s auto-incorrect may be possessed by Satan. Are electric vehicles also susceptible to demonic possession?

For me with the hybrid, it's roughly 52 fill ups a year at ~$23 each. I could be saving half of that with electric, but we're still talking ten years before I make that money back.

So many of these 'look how much money you'll save!' conversations conveniently ignore the up front cost disadvantage.

And yes, I get that incentives can also change that factor, but those aren't exactly up front either (and many people would get nothing from them.)
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Re: To Lease or too buy an EV

Wed Jun 26, 2019 8:23 pm

JustAnEngineer wrote:
Are electric vehicles also susceptible to demonic possession?

Well, severe malfunctions tend to result in metal-melting flames ...
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Re: To Lease or too buy an EV

Wed Jun 26, 2019 10:17 pm

LostCat wrote:
JustAnEngineer wrote:
LostCat wrote:
https://teslanomics.co/tesla-model-3-fu ... alculator/ I just don't fancy spending $5000 extra to save around a dollar every time I would've filled up.
. For me, it’s 70 fill-ups a year at $28 each, and I’d spend less than half as much on electricity, saving more than $1000 per year. It’ll be a lot more savings if gasoline goes back up above $2.15/gallon.

P.S. iPhone’s auto-incorrect may be possessed by Satan. Are electric vehicles also susceptible to demonic possession?

For me with the hybrid, it's roughly 52 fill ups a year at ~$23 each. I could be saving half of that with electric, but we're still talking ten years before I make that money back.

So many of these 'look how much money you'll save!' conversations conveniently ignore the up front cost disadvantage.

And yes, I get that incentives can also change that factor, but those aren't exactly up front either (and many people would get nothing from them.)


That’s the bottom line with EVs. It’s interesting to talk about range and plug availability, but in the end you’re paying a lot more money for a less capable vehicle. If there was price parity between EVs and ICEs there’d probably be a lot more people willing to go the EV route.
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Re: To Lease or too buy an EV

Wed Jun 26, 2019 11:03 pm

To be fully apples-to-apples, you do have to factor the cost of long term maintenance, which will be higher for the ICE drivetrain components as others have noted. Besides normal wear on moving bits, the efficiency and refinement gains of the past 10-20 years have been gained at the price of a fearsome electrical complexity. That can be all kinds of expensive to fix when something goes sideways.

Doesn't change the calculus for me, but a straight compare of gas versus electrons doesn't yield the true cost per mile.
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Re: To Lease or too buy an EV

Wed Jun 26, 2019 11:29 pm

ludi wrote:
To be fully apples-to-apples, you do have to factor the cost of long term maintenance, which will be higher for the ICE drivetrain components as others have noted. Besides normal wear on moving bits, the efficiency and refinement gains of the past 10-20 years have been gained at the price of a fearsome electrical complexity. That can be all kinds of expensive to fix when something goes sideways.

Doesn't change the calculus for me, but a straight compare of gas versus electrons doesn't yield the true cost per mile.


For 100k miles, most cars only need the occasional oil change and maybe a fluid top-off. At 150k miles, your maintenance item is spark-plugs. The #1 maintenance cost is going to be your tires for the first 5 years of life, followed by your brakes. (And sure, ICE cars don't have regenerative braking so maybe the brakes last longer on electrics)

People simply don't rebuild engines or transmissions within 100k, or even 200k miles on modern cars. Modern cars are surprisingly efficient and reliable.
 
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Re: To Lease or too buy an EV

Thu Jun 27, 2019 6:45 am

dragontamer5788 wrote:
For 100k miles, most cars only need the occasional oil change and maybe a fluid top-off. At 150k miles, your maintenance item is spark-plugs. The #1 maintenance cost is going to be your tires for the first 5 years of life, followed by your brakes. (And sure, ICE cars don't have regenerative braking so maybe the brakes last longer on electrics)

People simply don't rebuild engines or transmissions within 100k, or even 200k miles on modern cars. Modern cars are surprisingly efficient and reliable.


You may not have to rebuild a transmission or engine in that time frame, but there’s definitely expensive things that go wrong. Also, what car are you driving that doesn’t need spark plugs until 150k?
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Re: To Lease or too buy an EV

Thu Jun 27, 2019 7:00 am

dragontamer5788 wrote:
ludi wrote:
To be fully apples-to-apples, you do have to factor the cost of long term maintenance, which will be higher for the ICE drivetrain components as others have noted. Besides normal wear on moving bits, the efficiency and refinement gains of the past 10-20 years have been gained at the price of a fearsome electrical complexity. That can be all kinds of expensive to fix when something goes sideways.

Doesn't change the calculus for me, but a straight compare of gas versus electrons doesn't yield the true cost per mile.


For 100k miles, most cars only need the occasional oil change and maybe a fluid top-off. At 150k miles, your maintenance item is spark-plugs. The #1 maintenance cost is going to be your tires for the first 5 years of life, followed by your brakes. (And sure, ICE cars don't have regenerative braking so maybe the brakes last longer on electrics)

People simply don't rebuild engines or transmissions within 100k, or even 200k miles on modern cars. Modern cars are surprisingly efficient and reliable.

Most engines I've had needed a timing belt at 100K miles or after 10 years. That's a MAJOR undertaking in most cars and not something even a shade tree mechanic should attempt, as botching it will cause the engine to need to be replaced. My car needed that, and major fluid swap (radiator, brakes, differentials, gear/transmission oil, etc.). The bill was $1,000. I declined and am rolling the dice. But I have the luxury of owning an extra vehicle as a backup.

When it comes to saving fuel, the killer for me is I like my motorcycle the five months I get to ride it. 45-50 MPG is really nice. The HOV lane is an extra perk. If you REALLY want to save fuel there are lots of smaller bikes than mine that get even better fuel economy. My friend's NC700 gets 70 MPG and you can find those for about $4,000.
 
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Re: To Lease or too buy an EV

Thu Jun 27, 2019 7:03 am

FireGryphon wrote:
dragontamer5788 wrote:
For 100k miles, most cars only need the occasional oil change and maybe a fluid top-off. At 150k miles, your maintenance item is spark-plugs. The #1 maintenance cost is going to be your tires for the first 5 years of life, followed by your brakes. (And sure, ICE cars don't have regenerative braking so maybe the brakes last longer on electrics)

People simply don't rebuild engines or transmissions within 100k, or even 200k miles on modern cars. Modern cars are surprisingly efficient and reliable.


You may not have to rebuild a transmission or engine in that time frame, but there’s definitely expensive things that go wrong. Also, what car are you driving that doesn’t need spark plugs until 150k?


I drive a 2009 Honda Civic, it has about 88k miles on it. Decently close to that 10 year/100k precipice. So far my maintenance costs have been mostly

Requisite oil changes/tire rotation
Brakes
Axel replacements (5 years of Wisconsin winters)
Timing belt replacement
Random thing I'm blanking on at the moment, possibly spark plugs
Current mechanic says the AC pump will probably go either this summer or next, I'm holding off until it fails.

Obviously some of these are independent of ICE vs Electric, but just wanted to throw some data out there. I'll see what the next few years have in store for the ol' Honda, as I'm expecting the maintenance costs to rise. I'm not sure if I'm being paranoid or not, but in the last year or so I've felt like there has been a change in engine performance - shifting gears seems more wonky/less responsive.
 
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Re: To Lease or too buy an EV

Thu Jun 27, 2019 7:23 am

Do not skip the timing belt replacement when it is due. If the timing belt fails, you will end up with valves open (down) when the pistons are up, and the "interference" when they collide will wreck all of it, leading to at least a major engine rebuild or even a whole new engine. Try a different mechanic shop if the dealer's price seems too high. You could save more than 1/3 of the cost, which is mostly labor and not much for parts.

Personally, I've had poor luck with Honda automatic transmissions when mated with their most powerful V6 engines. I never had a lick of transmission trouble with 4-cylinder Hondas, but both of my V6 Accords and my CL needed transmission work. That's one of the reasons that I'm intrigued by their hybrid arrangement that does away with the transmission.
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Re: To Lease or too buy an EV

Thu Jun 27, 2019 7:45 am

Thankfully Subaru has ditched timing belts for chains, so that bill at 105K no longer comes due. That said, if you have a Subie with a timing belt, since the water pump has to come off to get to the belt cover, there's no reason to put the old pump back on.
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Re: To Lease or too buy an EV

Thu Jun 27, 2019 8:54 am

Captain Ned wrote:
JustAnEngineer wrote:
Are electric vehicles also susceptible to demonic possession?

Well, severe malfunctions tend to result in metal-melting flames ...

I've always said that when I go out, I want to go out in a big way. I'm glad that my next car shares this same feeling with me.
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Re: To Lease or too buy an EV

Thu Jun 27, 2019 9:04 am

On timing belts:

On many engines the timing belt also runs the water pump.
So if the water pump seizes there goes your engine. My old Neon is a good example...

Also almost every small engine out there with timing belts is also an interference engine. (I personally don't know of an engine with a timing belt that is NOT an interference engine but I could be wrong so "almost".)

In my opinion having a belt instead of a chain is STUPID. Having the belt running anything other than the over head cam is even more stupid.

I find it interesting that for GM you can often find a similar engine sold in cars in other countries that have chains instead of belts.
My cruze diesel is one example. The australian version of this car has a timing chain, the US/Canada version has a belt.
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Re: To Lease or too buy an EV

Thu Jun 27, 2019 10:49 am

Belts are quieter, so people like them. Chains can go, too. I read up on the Audi V8 and it's chain is in the back and is known to need replacing. Being in the back, it's a much larger PITA as you need to pull the engine. The gold standard is direct drive. Ford 300 I-6. Legendary. No chain.

I'm not replacing it because my car is a 2004. If it lasts 150,000 miles I'll be happy. Having the timing belt replaces, along with the other stuff, would cost about 1/5 the car's worth. They don't go right at 100,000. It's usually 20-30K after at the soonest. Given I've driven 20,000 miles in six years, it's a risk I'm willing to take. It's an S60 R, with a huge turbo. I'm not sure how long a high-stress engine like that would last anyways.
 
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Re: To Lease or too buy an EV

Thu Jun 27, 2019 11:16 am

FireGryphon wrote:
That’s the bottom line with EVs. It’s interesting to talk about range and plug availability, but in the end you’re paying a lot more money for a less capable vehicle. If there was price parity between EVs and ICEs there’d probably be a lot more people willing to go the EV route.

That doesn't apply to all EVs, it depends on what you're shopping for. It's unfortunately something companies like Nissan cultivated as an image for EVs with their early Leafs that had barely enough useful range, that's not the case anymore with EV like the Bolt, Model 3, Nero, Kona and maybe Zoe after 2017.

Not allot of companies were willing to build an EV in mass quantities and comparable performance because it was too risky for business, they didn't know how to market it or how to shift to it without spooking their investors. Those investors are now turning around and putting pressure on these companies to modernize their products in order to stay relevant past 2022-2025.

Some of those examples in more detail if curious:

- A Bolt for 37k - or ~30k after our rebates here for example: Good modern EV with solid performance. GM kept the interior in budget territory, but it's not too shabby, and we benefit from a car with 128mpg efficiency and very little maintenance costs.

- We can also get something similar with a Kia Nero EV or Hyundai Kona, both solid entry level EVs with untouchable mileage numbers vs the legacy cars. The interior looks pretty good too for this price range. The federal rebates on these cars is still not cut down yet, GM and Tesla are sadly getting theirs lowered soon, so these cars may become the new price champs for a while.

- We can also move up a bit more with an entry level Tesla Model 3 Standard Plus for 39k* - or ~35k after rebates in our area - and you get a car that goes 0-60 in around 5.6s, which is entry level sports car territory in a family sedan package.

* They have a 35k model they sell under the counter as well, they don't like to sell those so they're pulling a BurgerKing secret menu on that one lol.

- Or we can go all in and get a Model 3 Performance that goes 0-60 in 2.3s, beating almost anything in its class. But then you'll be going well past 50k even with rebates included. Great price for its niche still, but we're not in "mainstream" territory anymore price-wise.

You can see here that performance is not a challenge for a well designed EV:

"Tesla Model 3 vs BMW M2 Competition vs Audi RS3 - TRACK REVIEW // DRAG RACE & LAP TIMES"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Pu9046wX9g (~03:45 for drag and ~05:10 for track subjective, ~15:40 for track tests)

- Past this point there's other products from Audi, Jaguar, Mercedes and Tesla, but they're not a place to look for getting a "good deal" really.

So it really depends on what your budget is and what you shop for, same as old gas cars. But this wasn't always the case, five years ago I would have agreed that options were limited to stuff like the Nissan Leaf with its awful range.

Times are changing, and according to industry experts 2022-2025 promises to get us to a point where the tables may even turn on costs. By then that technology will move down from the high-end and make its way into more budget minded products.

So if you can't find a brand new EV today to fit your budget, this is likely going to change soon.

The newsletter takes a closer look at 10 models: three all-electric models, four hybrids, and three gas cars. The three all-electric cars — the Chevy Bolt, the Ford Focus Electric, and Nissan Leaf — were lowest in annual maintenance costs, ranging from $204 with the Bolt to $386 with the Focus Electric.

A few of the hybrid vehicles cost the city more than $1,000 in maintenance in 2018, and gas vehicles like the Ford Fusion and Focus checked in with a maintenance cost average of $1,621 and $1,805, respectively.

https://electrek.co/2019/03/18/nyc-main ... tric-cars/
“...so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat.”Theodore Roosevelt

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