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Buy or Lease a new EV

Buy
14 (40%)
Lease
11 (31%)
Neither and spend all available funds buying delicious cheese. (But I'd still need a vehicle to haul the cheese)
10 (29%)
 
Total votes: 35
 
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Re: To Lease or too buy an EV

Thu Aug 15, 2019 10:24 am

cheesyking wrote:
Blind eulogising like that is a common trap for some Linux enthusiasts and does more harm than good.

I think you meant "evangelizing", not "eulogizing"... though maybe he'll be eulogizing Tesla in a few years! :lol:

Yup, that's a perfect analogy. Telling people they're idiots for using Windows when their professional workflow requires them to use a specific commercial application (e.g. Photoshop, SolidWorks, Visio, etc...) doesn't convince anyone, and only serves to kill any credibility the evangelist might have had.

Trying to push EVs into environments or use cases they're not suited for is just as bad.
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Re: To Lease or too buy an EV

Thu Aug 15, 2019 1:12 pm

cheesyking wrote:
We shouldn't ignore change and change in the EV market isn't something we should ignore either. The EVs currently on the market could easily look like ridiculous toys in just a few years time if one of the various promised battery improvements actually makes it out the lab (if the Samsung rumours are true, graphene is very close). You have to keep in mind that buying an EV now makes you an early adopter and that brings risk.

There's certainly an element of early adopting involved, that's true.

Image
(https://greenbookblog.org/2018/01/22/tr ... et-market/)

I think we're at the edge of moving into early majority in the next few years. I just hope we're prepared to lead the charge by then, that's all.

Image
(https://evadoption.com/ev-market-share/)

Exciting times, and I just want to share that excitement. I can't wait to see what things look like in five years, both in terms of products as well as the rapidly growing global infrastructure around it.
“...so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat.”Theodore Roosevelt
 
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Re: To Lease or too buy an EV

Thu Aug 15, 2019 1:20 pm

Courtesy of that wholly wonderful book, The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, three rules on new technologies:

1. Anything that is in the world when you’re born is normal and ordinary and is just a natural part of the way the world works.

2. Anything that’s invented between when you’re fifteen and thirty-five is new and exciting and revolutionary and you can probably get a career in it.

3. Anything invented after you’re thirty-five is against the natural order of things.
What we have today is way too much pluribus and not enough unum.
 
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Re: To Lease or too buy an EV

Thu Aug 15, 2019 1:22 pm

Interesting details about EV traction here by Toyota researchers, pretty neat stuff:
https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/c2c4/a ... 551272.pdf

The electric vehicle has the following great advantages for the realization of high-performance traction control.

1) Low Cost
—In the case of an ICV, the above-mentioned techniques need additional costly hardware, e.g., throttle and brake actuators. The EV does not need anything more. Traction control can be realized only by software. Even the lowest cost “basic car” can have high-performance traction control.

2) Quick Response
—In the ICV, more than 200 ms are needed to open the throttle actuator. The actual response is much slower, because additional delay in the mechanical system must be included. In contrast, the response time of the electric motor torque is less than 10 ms.

3) Easy Controller Design
—In the ICV, unknown strong nonlinearity lies in the transfer characteristics from the control input (for example, air valve angle to engine, oil pressure of brake system, etc.) to the generated torque. This makes it difficult to construct a mathematical model for controller design. In the EV, by applying simple current control, the generated torque is exactly proportional to the torque command

This cool recent video shows what the advantages of instant electric traction and independent axles look like in action:
Image
"Tesla 3 Dual Motor AWD vs Audi A4 Quattro - 4x4 test on rollers"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1n_iyYqm2rQ

Pretty neat how the wheels behave, looks kinda weird. I can't wait to see this in proper EV trucks in the future, could be a boon for disaster prone areas.
“...so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat.”Theodore Roosevelt
 
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Re: To Lease or too buy an EV

Fri Aug 16, 2019 12:03 pm

Sargent Duck wrote:
2019 Hyundai Kona EV

Thought this might be a nice quick review of what the market looks like this year, Kona and its cousin the E-Nero are on the list:

CarWow's top 10 EVs:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=90a_KXbqfeY

A close comparison between the cousins:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ETR3bSoxnNY

And some EV leasing tips and tricks in case you decide to go that route:
https://www.greencarreports.com/news/11 ... four-times
“...so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat.”Theodore Roosevelt
 
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Re: To Lease or too buy an EV

Mon Aug 19, 2019 12:59 pm

Great interview with a couple of established automotive experts:
Image
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i93VJ1PEp6o

- VW's potential lead in the west relative to other legacy manufacturers.
- The auto market's challenges posed by the potentially impending recession.
- China's long-term plans ahead of this shift, going back to 1990s.
- The current state of Chinese cars according to the consultants. Hint: They're not fooling around, almost ready to pounce on the global market.
- The pollution crisis in China - ex: selling air in bottles - contributing to further energizing the goals of the government.
- What the market dynamics in Europe and China look like vs the US that's driving the global change - ex: banning ICE vehicles on certain days of the week, or in parts of major cities altogether, a waiting list for ICE vehicle car registrations, taking over a year to receive them, etc. What this means to EV sales in those major markets.
- The potential need for legacy manufacturers to bring battery manufacturing in-house, and roadblocks posed by patents on battery chemistry.
- The four major battery manufacturers controlling most of this market (Panasonic, Samsung, LG, and CATL).
- BYD as outliers that do both: Manufacture their own batteries and sell their own cars. A major advantage that may some day lead to market dominance.
- Extremely difficult to compete with the major four on battery technology and chemistry, the experts discuss a "step change" alternative that may come into fruition, stuff like incorporating super-capacitors into the system and investment into dry electrode technology etc.
- The nature of adding the super-capacitor into the mix and how that would function.
- Maxwell as one of the clients these experts worked with, insight into the technology they have relating to all this.
- We have more rare earth metals than anywhere else in the world, but just not actively mining it yet. Big future economic potential for mining operations in places like Nevada for example.
- Chinese companies buying up mine-able land all around the world to secure future mining rights, even if not using them at the moment.
- The need to optimize the design of the Model 3, too many welding points and such, which may explain the recent order of massive stamping machines.
- The breakdown results showing Tesla's strengths and weaknesses: Behind on body design/welding, over-engineered parts and such, way ahead on technology under the hood. What this means for them long-term.
- The prospect of body optimizations, reducing parts potentially by 40 percent, leading to lighter weight and higher margins, making their way to the Model Y.
- The silicon valley mindset when it comes to car manufacturing. The idea of incorporating thousands of functions into a single chip, instead of ordering multiple incompatible parts from numerous vendors. Ex. The super-bottle part design.
- Driving habits in Europe vs US and what that means when producing EVs for those markets.
- The need for companies to invest in their charging infrastructure. A big obstacle for many companies to succeed with EVs in the future, at least in the US market.
- Internal Ford politics, referred to as the "car/career decision making" culture.
- What the consultants can share about Rivian, and how that relates to Ford's investment in them.
- GM's angle with Rivian, losing them to Ford during negotiations due to hesitation.
- The risk of our industries going behind the curve, and what to do about it, for example going back to having more vertical integration and such.

Neat interview with lots of interesting nuggets of information and future projections from the trenches.
“...so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat.”Theodore Roosevelt
 
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Re: To Lease or too buy an EV

Mon Aug 19, 2019 2:48 pm

wierdo wrote:
Neat interview with lots of interesting nuggets of information and future projections from the trenches.


:roll:

Sandy Munro is a consultant (as you even admit: "according to the consultants") who self-describes himself like this:

Sandy Munro wrote:
Evangelical in spreading the ‘gospel’ of paradigms shifts, concurrent engineering and innovation, Sandy has chaired and spoken at numerous engineering conferences and symposia across North America and Europe. He has also lectured at Stanford, Purdue, University of Rhode Island and other universities


This is not from the trenches. This is from a guy who makes a living giving speeches.

He's not even the kind of insultant that I routinely deal with, like the types from Accenture and Mckinsey.

Because I know those guys because they actually visit the trenches, at least occasionally: that's the only reason I've met them.


Meanwhile, this video (which doesn't even title the participants during the video or in the text entry for it :roll: [I got the name Sandy Munro from the user comments :roll: :roll:] ) has a tesla "referral" code.

lolwut?

Is this an MLM?
 
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Re: To Lease or too buy an EV

Mon Aug 19, 2019 2:54 pm

LOL at "insultant". Hadn't seen that one before...
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Re: To Lease or too buy an EV

Mon Aug 19, 2019 3:06 pm

haha I wish I could say it's mine, but I'd still like to see it in wider circulation.
 
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Re: To Lease or too buy an EV

Tue Aug 20, 2019 10:43 am

Glorious wrote:
This is not from the trenches. This is from a guy who makes a living giving speeches.

Quoting the first paragraph of a whole page to make a dismissive one liner as usual, not surprised coming from the peanut gallery.

Here's the rest of it:
https://sandymunro.net/bio.html

In 1978, Sandy joined Ford Motor Company and shifted roles from machine tool and automation designer to manufacturing engineer. After several projects where he helped increase productivity on engine assembly lines, he was promoted to Senior Automation Specialist, where he supervised installation and development of new, more productive engine manufacturing lines.

After discovering and successfully implementing design for assembly principles at Ford, Sandy was named Corporate Coordinator - Design For Assembly for the automaker. In this new position, Sandy helped Ford utilize DFA to save billions of dollars, improve quality and reduce development cycles during the early 1980's. At his urging, Ford granted the University of Rhode Island nearly $1 million to develop and expand DFA methodologies to include all manufacturing disciplines.

The other expert in the video has deep industry credentials as well, coming in from Chyrsler as a project leader for vehicle systems:
https://leandesign.com/people-at-munro/albert-steier/

Al has worked with OEM and supplier clients such as Ingersall-Rand, DaimlerChrysler, Bentley, Magna, Cummins, TACOM, TRW, Bosch, BorgWarner, Blue Bird Corporation, Laird, L3, Lockheed Martin, American Axle, Akebono, FEV, Ricardo, Allied Motion, Duke, Coca-Cola, Starkey, EPA, CARB, NHSTA, Tata, Harley Davidson, PACCAR, United Bank of Switzerland (UBS) and FCA.

Maybe debate the talking points of these two industry veterans instead? What do you disagree with and why? Attacking them as individuals does nothing for your argument.

Glorious wrote:
has a tesla "referral" code

The blogger interviewing them drives a Tesla. The two experts he's interviewing are old guys from Detroit, they don't drive Teslas.

Glorious wrote:
Because I know those guys because they actually visit the trenches, at least occasionally: that's the only reason I've met them.

So you work for a Detroit car manufacturer, interesting, that explains some things.

“It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it.” ― Upton Sinclair

Anyway, I did my best to summarize from the video so people didn't have to do the legwork, feel free to watch the video directly if you guys disagree with the points.
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Re: To Lease or too buy an EV

Tue Aug 20, 2019 2:51 pm

wierdo wrote:
Quoting the first paragraph of a whole page to make a dismissive one liner as usual, not surprised coming from the peanut gallery.


I quoted the last paragraph of the whole page, so not only is that not my "usual", I didn't even do it *THIS* time.

You, misrepresenting me? Yeah, that is rather typical for you: You once quoted me as saying something that not only did I never say, but that no one else in this thread did either.

You never explained that, corrected it, or apologized for it.

---
As to my dismissal of them--Credibility is sort of like a math theorem: If someone can a find a single example where it doesn't hold, the whole thing fails.

wierdo wrote:
The other expert in the video has deep industry credentials as well, coming in from Chyrsler as a project leader for vehicle systems:

I also note that you don't even respond to what I've quoted, which is damning: self-proclaimed "evangelists" are explicitly claiming they aren't neutral or non-biased.

He works for "Munro & Associates", that is, this is just a subsidiary of the first guy, Sandy MUNRO. As such, so what? Same brand.

wierdo wrote:
Al has worked with OEM and supplier clients such as Ingersall-Rand, DaimlerChrysler, Bentley, Magna, Cummins, TACOM, TRW, Bosch, BorgWarner, Blue Bird Corporation, Laird, L3, Lockheed Martin, American Axle, Akebono, FEV, Ricardo, Allied Motion, Duke, Coca-Cola, Starkey, EPA, CARB, NHSTA, Tata, Harley Davidson, PACCAR, United Bank of Switzerland (UBS) and FCA.


That's almost *THIRTY* companies, which means he's a consultant and pretty mercenary one to boot.

That means that even if you've been in the industry for 35 years, you've worked at all of these places for an average of 13-14 months at best, and realistically, since you spent a decade or two getting established at 1-3 companies before you got into the game, it's really like ~7-8 months or something.

I have a lot of experience with such consultants, and ~6 months isn't much time to make any sort of (good) impact. Realistically, the sort of people who do make such impacts are called contractors, those guys might not work for huge stretches of time on projects but at least that's what people who actually *DO* as opposed to just *TELL* are usually called.

And with good reason: Consultants consult, that is, you ask them questions, they give you advice. They don't really "do" anything.

Whereas contractors contract, that is, you have specific agreement with them in relation to the specific work they will be performing.

This, as a rudimentary sorting hat, is not a terribly bad indicator for evaluating the contributor of a short-timer: Contractor? Is, or at least should be, doing something useful.

Consultant? Isn't, and probably won't be, doing anything useful. :wink:
wierdo wrote:
Maybe debate the talking points of these two industry veterans instead? What do you disagree with and why? Attacking them as individuals does nothing for your argument.


"debate talking points" --- er, no. Talking points are deliberately reductionist approaches to situations that are designed to elicit buy-in. They are marketing. It is a PR term, not a technical one.

If you can't even bother to have something written, you're not serious. If you want me to engage with talking points, at least give me the single powerpoint slide they're contained on so I have something to respond to, not a 1 hour of video. (by the way, as I'll discuss later, your list isn't even talking points--it is summary of what these guys said, most of which is simply declarative, and not in any sort of rhetorical way).

And that's the thing, this isn't about engagement with technically-minded skeptics, this is a promotional tool to maintain and deepen pre-existing mind share. This is about trying to get *you* to aspirationally buy a tesla, which is why the video's creator literally has a referral link. It is not meant to engage, abstractly, with someone discussing the idea of EV generally or Tesla specifically, generically.

wierdo wrote:
What do you disagree with and why? Attacking them as individuals does nothing for your argument.


There are twenty plus pages, half of which happened in a period in which you explicitly said you were ignoring me and then didn't respond to me, of me engaging with innumerable different EV related topics.

Feel free to chuck in one of their arguments that's novel to this discussion at any point, I'd be happy to discuss it with you. I'm not going to watch a 1 hour video to find someone else's arguments for you. Do yourself the dignity of selecting them yourself.

wierdo wrote:
The blogger interviewing them drives a Tesla. The two experts he's interviewing are old guys from Detroit, they don't drive Teslas.


Yes, the guy making the video and directly driving the agenda of the video is TESLA TESLA TESLA.

That was my point. I don't even understand what you are getting at, that the people the agenda-setting is using aren't Tesla people?

So what? It's the Tesla's agenda, under his control complete. That's the relevant part.

wierdo wrote:
So you work for a Detroit car manufacturer, interesting, that explains some things.


Again, take your time to actually read my remarks in this thread, especially the ones directed at you:

"I call tell you as someone who works in a related industry that soft vehicle demand overall has trickled up the chain"

I don't work in, or for, the Automative industry, but the places your paranoia takes you sure are interesting...

wierdo wrote:
Anyway, I did my best to summarize from the video so people didn't have to do the legwork, feel free to watch the video directly if you guys disagree with the points.


Yes, you summarized the video.

Just because you bulleted "they then said this, then they said that" doesn't mean you have a list of points.

What "point" did you make when you say

"The auto market's challenges posed by the potentially impending recession."

or

"The four major battery manufacturers controlling most of this market (Panasonic, Samsung, LG, and CATL)."

or

"Maxwell as one of the clients these experts worked with, insight into the technology they have relating to all this."

---

Poorly taken minutes of a meeting don't constitute a position paper, OK?
Last edited by Glorious on Tue Aug 20, 2019 2:59 pm, edited 2 times in total.
 
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Re: To Lease or too buy an EV

Tue Aug 20, 2019 2:52 pm

Another interesting angle about VW's current chess moves in Europe, pretty cool stuff:

"Volkswagen Has An Opportunity To Bankrupt Top Competitors"
https://cleantechnica.com/2019/08/19/vo ... mpetitors/

At the unveiling of the ID.3, when asked by a journalist if there was enough of a market for EVs, board member Jurgen Stackmann said something to the effect of, “We are Volkswagen, we can create the market.”


The company has announced large EV investments in recent years, and more than three years ago indicated it planned to sell a few million fully electric vehicles a year by 2025, representing 20–25% of its sales.

Great production numbers to aim for, that's a ton of EVs. Though considering they just got caught cheating on their fix for the cheat today, maybe they should double up on that effort lol.

VW promised to fix the cheating device issue with a software update & the Düsseldorf court 2 days ago revealed that the software update had another cheating device included

https://twitter.com/alex_avoigt/status/ ... 80256?s=21

Regardless, a heavy hitter is close to entering the field, swallowing up the world's battery supplies from the competition? Are we seeing big power plays by the German Juggernaut in the near future? Maybe. Things are gonna get interesting for sure.
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Re: To Lease or too buy an EV

Tue Aug 20, 2019 3:55 pm

OK, wierdo, who's paying you for the pump 'n' dump short-selling scheme?
What we have today is way too much pluribus and not enough unum.
 
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Re: To Lease or too buy an EV

Tue Aug 20, 2019 4:02 pm

Glorious wrote:
Credibility is sort of like a math theorem: If someone can a find a single example where it doesn't hold, the whole thing fails.
Seems math is not your forte then, not important for tightening lug-nuts in Detroit I guess.

Glorious wrote:
I also note that you don't even respond to what I've quoted, which is damning: self-proclaimed "evangelists" are explicitly claiming they aren't neutral or non-biased.

You don't even understand what you're reading, just heard something about EVs and came out swinging as usual lol.

These guys break down cars, down to the lug nuts you tighten, do a cost analysis, and sell that information to competitors or offer expert advice on cost optimizations, that's their area of expertise, doing a full breakdown and cost analysis and selling that information to competition, be it Chinese, European, Japanese, American, whoever wants it. They're evangelists in the sense of selling their services to companies like Toyota and Volkswagen, etc.

Amusingly these guys got allot of flack for their early Tesla teardown results, were pretty critical of the body work, so your theories around that "evangelist" word that you comically latched on to, a self projection I'm sure, just let your mind run wild, can't help you with your problem there.

Glorious wrote:
"debate talking points" --- er, no. Talking points are deliberately reductionist approaches to situations that are designed to elicit buy-in. They are marketing. It is a PR term, not a technical one.

That's quite a fancy way of saying "don't make me think, it hurts my head."

Glorious wrote:
If you can't even bother to have something written, you're not serious. If you want me to engage with talking points, at least give me the single powerpoint slide they're contained on so I have something to respond to, not a 1 hour of video.
Pick whatever from those points I listed, I simplified it as much as possible, summarized them for you, that way you don't have to watch an educational video before adding to the debate. What more do you need, milk and cookies?

Glorious wrote:
Feel free to chuck in one of their arguments that's novel to this discussion at any point, I'd be happy to discuss it with you. I'm not going to watch a 1 hour video to find someone else's arguments for you. Do yourself the dignity of selecting them yourself.
I did, listed a ton of them obviously.

Glorious wrote:
Yes, the guy making the video and directly driving the agenda of the video is TESLA TESLA TESLA.

How can anyone take you seriously when you don't even know what the video was talking about lol. You repeatedly asserted you didn't watch it, so this is all just going by blind assumptions and guesswork on your part.

These industry guys are not Tesla fans, they just tear cars down for cost analysis and such. They tore down a Model 3 and sold that information to Chinese, Japanese and European companies, that's their angle. They talked about both Tesla's strengths and weaknesses, the company's product is not perfect, and the competition wanted to know about this stuff, that's all.

Glorious wrote:
That was my point. I don't even understand what you are getting at, that the people the agenda-setting is using aren't Tesla people?

Anyone talking about Tesla in your world has an agenda, these experts simply agreed to an interview.

Glorious wrote:
So what? It's the Tesla's agenda, under his control complete. That's the relevant part.

His only input is asking questions he's interested in, the experts went beyond those questions and then some, it was a free flow of ideas. You clearly asserted that you didn't watch the video, how can you claim you know what's discussed in it? LOL.

Glorious wrote:
I don't work in, or for, the Automative industry.

Sure. Backtrack and edit that out lol, I guess I should have quoted the rest of it as well.

Glorious wrote:
Just because you bulleted "they then said this, then they said that" doesn't mean you have a list of points.

I don't think you understand the meaning of the word. They didn't say any of those verbatim, it was a summary of their talking points. If this subject interests you then you can watch the video for details, otherwise why would I debate with someone only here to pick up on key words and then blindly raise objections and complaints in the dark?

Glorious wrote:
What "point" did you make when you say
"The auto market's challenges posed by the potentially impending recession." or
"The four major battery manufacturers controlling most of this market (Panasonic, Samsung, LG, and CATL)." or
"Maxwell as one of the clients these experts worked with, insight into the technology they have relating to all this."

That's for you to figure out, the video is there, this is just a summary of what was discussed after all, some points tie into each-other to argue a bigger point. I think the experts forgot about SK Innovations though, that's also a major battery manufacturer I believe. But I disgress.
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Re: To Lease or too buy an EV

Tue Aug 20, 2019 7:49 pm

Captain Ned wrote:
OK, wierdo, who's paying you for the pump 'n' dump short-selling scheme?


Its only pump-and-dump short bulls*** if its about Tesla. But you're allowed to talk badly about any other company (even if that company is making EVs).
 
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Re: To Lease or too buy an EV

Wed Aug 21, 2019 10:17 am

wierdo wrote:
Seems math is not your forte then, not important for tightening lug-nuts in Detroit I guess.


Tightening lug-nuts is honest work. In many ways it's preferable to the part of my job that requires shepherding "working" consultants, which, coincidentally, I was doing to 6 Accenture consultants just yesterday morning.

You watch internet videos and don't even read what I say, whereas I deal with all types of consultants (across the gamut, really) all the time.

You can hatefully disparage me as an elderly rural hick, you can even break-your-neck flip-flopping into the hypocrisy of denigrating me as blue-collar presumably middle-aged man in Detriot, which is the epitome of the "inner city", meanwhile, for over a decade here I've been completely consistent in the few-and-far-between mentions of what I do professionally. It's not an affectation, or an act: it's just what I do. I can't have faked it to argue with you, because that would require time travel.

Hence, this just isn't BS: You are watching open propaganda from Tesla, I am telling you things from real-life personal & professional experience.

But, sure, I don't know "math"---what does any of your list even have to do with that? :roll:

wierdo wrote:
You don't even understand what you're reading, just heard something about EVs and came out swinging as usual lol.


What I am "reading" is a list of mostly non-rhetorical declaration statements. There aren't any arguments to be had, where is the "argument" in your previous statement:

wierdo wrote:
Driving habits in Europe vs US and what that means when producing EVs for those markets.


That's not an argument. It's not a point. There's nothing to engage with.

As I asked you, if you want to transmute what you watched into actual arguments & positions, please do. I'll engage with that. You know, if only because I actually can.

wierdo wrote:
These guys break down cars, down to the lug nuts you tighten, do a cost analysis, and sell that information to competitors or offer expert advice on cost optimizations, that's their area of expertise, doing a full breakdown and cost analysis and selling that information to competition, be it Chinese, European, Japanese, American, whoever wants it.


Once again, I deal with actual business planners professionally. Over the years I've encountered at least a dozen people directly that do costing, every company in the world does this routinely. Comparative cost breakdown is a staple of the accounting section of our quarterly communication meeting.

There's nothing remotely exceptional about this, it's an industry itself. Any fresh-faced McKinsey kid can get into this, and plenty of them have, with me.

Some guy named Sandy Munro does it on the internet? OK, last year, for me personally, it was Jared from Plano, who flew in 3 days a week for like 3.5 months. Do you also want to hear my stories about the hilariously deluded Hyperion guys, who basically asked me to explain THEIR documents to THEM? He started the meeting recounting his many decades of experience too. If only he had some internet videos, I guess.. :roll:

wierdo wrote:
They're evangelists in the sense of selling their services to companies like Toyota and Volkswagen, etc.

Amusingly these guys got allot of flack for their early Tesla teardown results, were pretty critical of the body work, so your theories around that "evangelist" word that you comically latched on to, a self projection I'm sure, just let your mind run wild, can't help you with your problem there.


It's not my theory, it's just what the word means in this space. I ..uh.. don't know how else to put it?

In fact, if you think this is just my idiosyncratic interpretation of their unique term, oh man, you're clueless:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evangelism_marketing

But sure, I wrote that article inbetween tending my farm in Montana and working a regular shift in Dearborn. I have plenty of free time on my commute, I guess. :roll:

wierdo wrote:
Amusingly these guys got allot of flack for their early Tesla teardown results, were pretty critical of the body work, so your theories around that "evangelist" word that you comically latched on to, a self projection I'm sure, just let your mind run wild, can't help you with your problem there.


It's a not theory. It's not a self-projection:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evangelism_marketing

"evangelist marketing" has like 10 million hits on google. I didn't make this up.

You need to stop watching propaganda videos and break out of your monoculture here, dude. There's a lot to learn outside of EV advocacy sources, even if you just want to actually advocate better. :wink:

wierdo wrote:
That's quite a fancy way of saying "don't make me think, it hurts my head."


Not at all, it's me point out that you clearly don't understand the implications of the terms you use, likely not even really the terms themselves. They almost appear to just be regurgitated catch-phrases.

As I said, there's nothing to say in the face of non-rhetorical factual declaratives: "They discussed colors" ---erm, OK?

What's the argument? Where's the point?

wierdo wrote:
Pick whatever from those points I listed, I simplified it as much as possible, summarized them for you, that way you don't have to watch an educational video before adding to the debate. What more do you need, milk and cookies?


I need an argument, not a vague list of the topics they discussed. There's nothing for me to argue with in that, all I could do is argue your rendition is inaccurate, but I just don't care if you honestly summarized the video.

wierdo wrote:
How can anyone take you seriously when you don't even know what the video was talking about lol. You repeatedly asserted you didn't watch it, so this is all just going by blind assumptions and guesswork on your part.


People CAN'T take you seriously if you are unable to actually form arguments and cogent positions.

wierdo wrote:
These industry guys are not Tesla fans, they just tear cars down for cost analysis and such.


The interviewer is, and Tesla promotion is the explicit purpose and agenda for the video.

That sort of matters, otherwise several Continental WW2-era "documentaries" about an abrahamic religion suddenly become "unproblematized" (to say the least :o ), because, yeah sure, they had plenty of real practitioners of those religions doing lots of legitimately authentic things in them.

Frame and purpose matter, ok? They're not everything, but they're a whole lot.

wierdo wrote:
Anyone talking about Tesla in your world has an agenda, these experts simply agreed to an interview.


Bro, the dude has a referral link.

This isn't "my world", it's staring-in-your-face reality, unlike your tall tales about short sellers and the like.

wierdo wrote:
His only input is asking questions he's interested in, the experts went beyond those questions and then some, it was a free flow of ideas. You clearly asserted that you didn't watch the video, how can you claim you know what's discussed in it? LOL.


It's his video, and they are his questions. I'm not really sure why you think what you said refutes or undermines that.

wierdo wrote:
Sure. Backtrack and edit that out lol, I guess I should have quoted the rest of it as well.


OH OK SO YOU'RE A BLATANT LIAR.

I edited a few more things *IN* and added a few words I accidentally dropped.



Feel free to actually say what you claim I "edited out", what was it? What sort of thing did I say?

:evil: :o :roll:
 
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Re: To Lease or too buy an EV

Wed Aug 21, 2019 2:31 pm

Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
 
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Re: To Lease or too buy an EV

Wed Aug 21, 2019 2:40 pm

Walmart should stop lighting its roofs on fire just to make Tesla look bad.

For shame.
 
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Re: To Lease or too buy an EV

Wed Aug 21, 2019 2:43 pm

just brew it! wrote:
https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2019/08/after-seven-roof-fires-walmart-sues-tesla-over-solar-panel-flaws/

https://www.space.com/spacex-starman-te ... t-sun.html
What we have today is way too much pluribus and not enough unum.
 
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Re: To Lease or too buy an EV

Wed Aug 21, 2019 4:08 pm

Glorious wrote:
You watch internet videos and don't even read what I say, whereas I deal with all types of consultants (across the gamut, really) all the time.
I'm sure you do, shaking allot of hands, mister "in the trenches but not affiliated in any way" lol.

Glorious wrote:
You are watching open propaganda from Tesla, I am telling you things from real-life personal & professional experience.
That's just paranoia and deflection on your behalf. It was a general piece, you just have this Tesla boogeyman that automatically sets off alarms in your head, if it's mentioned somewhere then you freak out and shut down.

You don't have to debate the parts that scare you, most of the talk was about all sorts of other topics. Why not skip over to those? China, Volkswagen, GM, Ford, Rivian, BYD, battery suppliers, market differences, Ford's corporate culture?

Or at least just let others debate instead of adding random trolling and noise? Attacking credibility of every person in the field that comes along to talk about this stuff, rather than debating the topics, is not very interesting.

Glorious wrote:
What I am "reading" is a list of mostly non-rhetorical declaration statements.
I highlighted the topics covered, to probe for interest and encourage debate. If the discussion doesn't interest you then you don't have to participate, why add noise if you're not that interested? Or just don't like others bringing up the elephant in the room to begin with?

Glorious wrote:
wierdo wrote:
Driving habits in Europe vs US and what that means when producing EVs for those markets.
That's not an argument. It's not a point. There's nothing to engage with.

I don't think you're interested in debating, but to expand on this example:
The experts are discussing the EV design priorities for different market, companies in the EU that design EVs for the US generally plan to cut the range by 1/3-1/2 for the European market, catering to regional consumer demand.

There's less demand for higher range there because Europeans have different driving habits, which in turn has interesting implications for pricing and speed of adoption on that continent, before even accounting for the current and upcoming regulatory hurdles against the legacy products.

It was part of a bigger discussion around factors relating to which markets will drive future trends, how and why. And it tied into other topics in the video as well.

Again, it's better to watch the discussion itself than to go by someone else's highlights, they're meant for technology enthusiasts who have actual interest in exploring the topic. Those obviously don't mean anything if you're apathetic or outright hostile about this stuff.

Glorious wrote:
You need to stop watching propaganda videos and break out of your monoculture here, dude.

People talking about global trends is mono-culture in your "Montana farm" world, comical. Oh and thanks for confirming both your career ties and now your old age. Explains why you're so set in your ways.

I get it, your world is local, if it's not happening in Detroit, Michigan then it's not happening period. And by the time this matters specifically in Montana, a gorgeous remote state that's a quarter of just Los Angeles in population, it wont affect you anyway.

Glorious wrote:
Bro, the dude has a referral link.

Bro, the guy in the Detroit trenches lol, it was a general discussion, just instigated by a blogger, he's background noise, no need for this fixation, you'll go cross-eyed. And people can watch these same experts, and others, on Autoline's Youtube channel, from Detroit, saying the same thing. That was already posted here before, you can watch that instead, similar bullet points.

You don't like bullet points very much, so I'll just re-post the Youtube links, this is not a topic of interest to you, I know, but I'm posting it here in case anyone wants to tie all this together:

Ex-Magna Paul Eichenberg's angle on Autoline:
https://techreport.com/forums/viewtopic ... n#p1410068
Ex-Ford Munro's angle(s) on Autoline:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2DucRxWz_58
If you look for his first video you'll find him bashing Tesla for their early body work, maybe you'll enjoy that one:
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_ ... p=CAI%253D

What's your next excuse for sticking your head in the sand? It's fine if you want to, but just adding noise to the discussion and yelling "look at me, I'm in the real trenches! I shook lots of hands!" is not an interesting contribution to the topic imho.

Glorious wrote:
I edited a few more things *IN* and added a few words I accidentally dropped.

You sure did.
“...so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat.”Theodore Roosevelt
 
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Re: To Lease or too buy an EV

Wed Aug 21, 2019 4:33 pm

just brew it! wrote:
https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2019/08/after-seven-roof-fires-walmart-sues-tesla-over-solar-panel-flaws/

Looks like incompetent installers setting up bad wiring. I've had contractors bring in absolute idiots to fix the house before, buncha lazy druggies off the street.

You can't do stuff like that if you wanna serve bigger clients like Walmart, so hopefully they'll take this seriously.

The good news is they're starting to clean things up finally on the residential side of things this year, maybe they're starting to find the right people for the job.

The solar/renewables market is one of the fastest growing job sectors in the country these days, so I'm sure the hiring pool is expanding fast enough to find better quality installers. So I hope Tesla is hiring better people than that these days lol.

Image
https://www.mintselection.com/solar-jobs/

Image
https://www.statista.com/chart/7772/mor ... generatio/
“...so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat.”Theodore Roosevelt
 
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Re: To Lease or too buy an EV

Wed Aug 21, 2019 4:40 pm

wierdo wrote:
I'm sure you do, shaking allot of hands, mister "in the trenches but not affiliated in any way" lol.


I work in the steel industry, producing a semi-finished commercial good that is used in the production of automobiles. (EDIT: Among myriad other things, like almost anything that has steel in it that isn't a tool or special part--actually, my plant in particular isn't remotely a heavy-hitter in automotive compared to others in the company.)

Yes, I am "in the trenches": when I go up the stairs in one of my plants if I open the door on my immediate left I'm in my office area. If I open the door on my immediate right, I'm literally on the cast floor and better have full PPE on, if I cross the yellow line 20 feet in front of me, I need to have the snood, full-face-shield and full silver-suit on too. In the other plant, if I just walk down the hallway instead of going up the stairs, I'm walking right into a coil storage crane bay. Walk to the left on the walkway, bam, I'm at the pickle line.

What would call that? Rear Echelon?

You know, I don't even like talking about this stuff, I'd rather arguments be on the merits. But this accusation of yours just grates on me something fierce.

wierdo wrote:
You don't have to debate the parts that scare you, most of the talk was about all sorts of other topics. Why not skip over to those? China, Volkswagen, GM, Ford, Rivian, BYD, battery suppliers, market differences, Ford's corporate culture?


THOSE AREN'T ARGUMENTS, THOSE ARE THE NAMES OF COUNTRIES, COMPANIES AND GENERIC CONCEPTS.

WHAT DO I DEBATE?

"CHINA"

HOW DO I DEBATE THAT? WHAT I AM EVEN DEBATING? THERE ISN'T EVEN A QUESTION MARK! IT'S A BARE NOUN, A PLACE NAME.

WHAT NEXT?

DEBATE "PARAGUAY"?

WTF?!?!?!?!??!?! OMGBBQ

wierdo wrote:
Or at least just let others debate instead of adding random trolling and noise? Attacking credibility of every person in the field that comes along to talk about this stuff, rather than debating the topics, is not very interesting.


I am begging you to actually generate an argument, instead of a list of "things that exist"

wierdo wrote:
The experts are discussing the EV design priorities for different market, companies in the EU that design EVs for the US generally plan to cut the range by 1/3-1/2 for the European market, catering to regional consumer demand.

There's less demand for higher range there because Europeans have different driving habits, which in turn has interesting implications for pricing and speed of adoption on that continent, before even accounting for the current and upcoming regulatory hurdles against the legacy products.

It was part of a bigger discussion around factors relating to which markets will drive future trends, how and why. And it tied into other topics in the video as well.

Again, it's better to watch the discussion itself than to go by someone else's highlights, they're meant for technology enthusiasts who have actual interest in exploring the topic. Those obviously don't mean anything if you're apathetic or outright hostile about this stuff.


THIS IS A SUMMARY OF WHAT THEY SAID, NOT AN ARGUMENT.

THERE ARE *UNTOLD MILLIONS* OF YOUTUBE VIDEOS. ARE YOU GOING TO SUMMARIZE THEM ALL?

JUST EV ONES? STILL *TENS OF THOUSANDS* FO' SHO'

WHY

WHY
WHYYYYYYYYYYYYY

wierdo wrote:
People talking about global trends is mono-culture in your "Montana farm" world, comical. Oh and thanks for confirming both your career ties and now your old age. Explains why you're so set in your ways.


I LIVE IN PITTSBURGH. YEARS TO GO BEFORE I'M EVEN FORTY.

wierdo wrote:
Bro, the guy in the Detroit trenches lol, it was a general discussion, just instigated by a blogger, he's background noise, no need for this fixation, you'll go cross-eyed. And people can watch these same experts, and others, on Autoline's Youtube channel, from Detroit, saying the same thing. That was already posted here before, you can watch that instead, similar bullet points.


I have never been to Detroit, I do not particularly care about Detroit. I care about people who pretty clearly trolling these forums tho.

wierdo wrote:
What's your next excuse for sticking your head in the sand? It's fine if you want to, but just adding noise to the discussion and yelling "look at me, I'm in the real trenches! I shook lots of hands!" is not an interesting contribution to the topic imho.


Videos with "evangelists" are the epitome of empty marketing, that's my point. *YOU* are the one who claimed these guys were in the trenches, no, sorry, that's not true: they are consultants. They have an entirely different set of priorities and incentives, and *HAVE* to self-promote to keep getting gigs.

wierdo wrote:
You sure did.


THEN WHAT DID I SAY?
Last edited by Glorious on Wed Aug 21, 2019 4:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Re: To Lease or too buy an EV

Wed Aug 21, 2019 4:46 pm

wierdo wrote:
You can't do stuff like that if you wanna serve bigger clients like Walmart, so hopefully they'll take this seriously.


LOL Walmart checked out long ago, dude, told Tesla to disconnect literally everything. They still had another fire even after that. :roll: Tesla's response is to refuse to pay for literally anything, hence the PR-disaster of this lawsuit instead of a non-public remediation averting the filing, which Walmart's~ 100-page complaint evidences that Tesla repeatedly failed to respond to.

Yeah, that's obviously not taking this seriously: Tesla's handling of this, up to literally yesterday, is like astounding: The fact-pattern alleged is something they SHOULD NEVER HAVE ALLOWED TO GO THIS FAR.
 
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Re: To Lease or too buy an EV

Wed Aug 21, 2019 5:53 pm

Glorious wrote:
I work in the steel industry, producing a semi-finished commercial good that is used in the production of automobiles...
What would call that? Rear Echelon?
No that's not trenches, I think your definition of trenches is something else. We're not talking about the grunt work that goes into producing a part, but the macro-level side of management that deals with the changes in the global market, and what that means for affected business models and future investment around that.

Don't get me wrong, steel manufacturing is a crucial part of the car manufacturing chain, but I don't see how this provides insight into market trends on a global scale, aside from observing demand for parts and changes in specs if we stretched it, and that's not a big window.

And I can understand the hostility when it's jobs so susceptible to automation.

Glorious wrote:
"CHINA"
HOW DO I DEBATE THAT? WHAT I AM EVEN DEBATING? THERE ISN'T EVEN A QUESTION MARK! IT'S A BARE NOUN, A PLACE NAME.
I think you have trouble assigning context, you're asking for hand holding and spoon feeding to engage in a topic you don't care about.

I understand how it can sound confusing from your angle: "China, what about them? EVs? I didn't watch any of the videos in discussion, but I gotta pretend to keep up, what did I miss? China, what's China? Do I try for Fake news? Do I sound smart if I yell louder?"

Like I said, if you lack the interest in the topic to begin with, then you will not be keeping up with the discussion. You do not care to follow China nor Europe as closely when it comes to discussing EVs and car manufacturing trends. If you were actually interested in this topic then you would have no trouble putting the pieces together.

So then why engage when it's not your cup of tea? For attention?

Glorious wrote:
I am begging you to actually generate an argument, instead of a list of "things that exist"
And I implore you to stop polluting discussions you're not interested in with noise, just to get some attention. Go feed pigeons or something.

Glorious wrote:
wierdo wrote:
(Wastes my time)
The experts are discussing the EV design priorities for different market, companies in the EU that design EVs for the US generally plan to cut the range by 1/3-1/2 for the European market, catering to regional consumer demand.
...
It was part of a bigger discussion around factors relating to which markets will drive future trends, how and why. And it tied into other topics in the video as well.
...
(-Snip- half a page of mindless yelling and throwing tantrums)
WHYYYYYYYYYYYYY
Back to yelling and hiding behind tantrums. You see why you're being ignored? You're just seeking attention, I'm not interested in wasting my time.

I'll respond if you have something about the topics to discuss, oh wait you don't know what they are, so frustrating, I got it. Something tells me I shouldn't hold my breath.

Can we please let someone else that's actually into this stuff have the chance at a productive debate about technology trends and world events. Please?
“...so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat.”Theodore Roosevelt
 
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Re: To Lease or too buy an EV

Wed Aug 21, 2019 6:11 pm

wierdo wrote:
No that's not trenches, I think your definition of trenches is something else. We're not talking about the grunt work that goes into producing a part, but the macro-level side of management that deals with the changes in the global market, and what that means for affected business models and future investment around that.


LMAO you're saying a foreign military liaison visiting the general's HQ is the "the trenches" :roll:

Stop using figures of speech you obviously don't understand.

wierdo wrote:
And I can understand the hostility when it's jobs so susceptible to automation.


I. WORK. IN. AUTOMATION.

wierdo wrote:
If you were actually interested in this topic then you would have no trouble putting the pieces together.


Oh, so now *I* have to make an argument out of "CHINA" for you?

GTFO.

wierdo wrote:
And I implore you to stop polluting discussions you're not interested in with noise, just to get some attention.


I would love to discuss literally anything, witness my fifteen years here in which where nothing human is foreign to me.

I've been arguing you with you for pages and pages, and you've ignored me completely for roughly half of them.

Make an argument, and I'll respond. Stop polluting this thread with youtube video summaries.

wierdo wrote:
Can we please let someone else that's actually into this stuff have the chance at a productive debate about technology trends and world events. Please?


You're hearing silence because no one else has any idea how to approach "CHINA" either.

Make an argument, not a list of things.
 
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Re: To Lease or too buy an EV

Wed Aug 21, 2019 7:55 pm

Glorious wrote:
LMAO you're saying a foreign military liaison visiting the general's HQ is the "the trenches" :roll:

I'm saying you're not management material.

Ironically instead of fearing all this change, it might just be your future safety net, but first you would need to learn to let go of the rigid and inflexible toxic attitude. I'll let you work out your own anxiety problems with the future.

Have fun debating yourself.
“...so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat.”Theodore Roosevelt
 
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Re: To Lease or too buy an EV

Thu Aug 22, 2019 8:33 am

wierdo wrote:
I'm saying you're not management material.


LOL when did I say I even wanted to be in management? :roll:

And, you know, such a statement is just so meaningful coming from you, since your experience in life seems to involve watching internet videos and being a terrible shill.

And, of course, your "evaluation" is basically a series of derogatory statements in which you claim I'm the following:

1) I'm an elderly farmer from nowheresville
2) I'm a working class line worker in Detroit
3) I'm luddite scared of the future but yet seeking a managerial position.

Uh, OK?

wierdo wrote:
Ironically instead of fearing all this change, it might just be your future safety net, but first you would need to learn to let go of the rigid and inflexible toxic attitude. I'll let you work out your own anxiety problems with the future.


What change? EVs? :roll:

You've extolled guys who do part breakdowns like it's some heroic feat worthy of demigods.

Which explains a lot, because you obviously don't know the first thing about the model 3's makeup if you are "taunting" me like this: The Model 3 actually uses significantly more steel than the X or S.

Oh, yes, that terrifying future when the company you want to take over the world ...is ...still completely reliant upon my industry. It seems like my safety net is there, if you are right?

wierdo wrote:
Have fun debating yourself.


Have fun making lists of things and being a prejudiced pseudo-dilettante who thinks that by looking down on blue collar and rural people he's therefore making something of himself.

No, that's just an evil delusion. As far as I can tell, you're a NEET. You've haven't accomplished or achieved anything but empty and embarrassing sneers that everyone just cringes at.

----


Do you think your behavior here promotes your cult? Do you think that Elon needs people ignorantly spewing outright nonsense and an attacking huge swathes of the American populace simply because of where they live or the menial nature of their jobs? Does Tesla look better after your efforts, or worse?

Look, you rail against the giants, you rant against Detroit: Well, they are what they are now because a long time ago the people who ran them thought selling cars to the guys who tightened the lugnuts on them was important.

You just think they are there so you can step on their backs and pretend you've reached the sky. :roll:

Just go away, you're a terrible person and your antics are actually making me think less and less of Tesla, which is something because I wasn't exactly a huge fan to begin with. You actually make Elon seem classy by comparison. :o
 
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Re: To Lease or too buy an EV

Thu Aug 22, 2019 8:54 am

And, you can blather on about how I'm toxic all you like, and say I'm not managerial material.

Do you, perchance, think that you are?

Because, dude, the attitudes you frequently evince *ARE* toxic to employment, forget management: disparaging the working class and rural America are bad enough, but do you understand that federal age discrimination protection starts at *FORTY*? You're a EEOC nightmare, your *constant* rhetoric of "can't teach an old dog new tricks" and "get with the times or get left out, grandpa" is loose-cannon levels of liability.

You're *&@#!ing unemployable at any level of management.


Do you even understand? Just look at this thread: if I was some "elderly" lugnut turner, and I applied to a management position and you rejected me, I would not only have an easy judgment (lol actually an immediate settlement, this fact pattern wouldn't hit the courts) I'D "HAVE YOUR JOB" (i.e. you'd be instantly fired).

Do I have to spell it out for you? I have a verifiable record of you repeatedly insulting me because of my age, blatantly. Whoops! Also, you didn't know my credentials or work experience, which is going to make the feeble ("...but really he wasn't qualified despite my discrimination" :o but what else can you say?) entirely laughable. Double whoop, 'cause it looks really bad if the "underqualified" guy is more qualified than you. You'd get crucified in court. In-house counsel would have heart palpitations just glancing at the fact-pattern.


---

So, dude, if *YOU* want to ever be "management material" THEN KNOCK IT OFF NOW, BECAUSE THE PERSONAL DOES AFFECT THE PROFESSIONAL.
 
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Re: To Lease or too buy an EV

Thu Aug 22, 2019 10:22 am

"Rivian releases video of its electric pickup-truck camper option"
https://electrek.co/2019/08/22/rivian-e ... ion-video/

Powered by the same battery pack that powers the R1T, our camp kitchen is designed to make food prep easy and cooking fun. It features a slide-out cabinet with an induction cooktop, built-in sink, dish rack, five-gallon water tank, and storage for all the camp utensils and tools you need to build a proper feast.

The integrated kitchen idea is pretty cool.
Image
Image
Image

Hopefully the company will have a successful launch, The niche could use some new blood.
“...so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat.”Theodore Roosevelt
 
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Re: To Lease or too buy an EV

Thu Aug 29, 2019 6:54 am

Seems like an expensive way to buy a kettle.
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