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Igor_Kavinski
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Re: Kempner Rice Diet

Sun Dec 29, 2019 5:46 am

The wall of text is meant for people with an open mind, not people who follow a medical system murdering millions of people. Remember the time when doctors were lobotomizing people with an icepick? They will do ANYTHING to get results, even if they are little because all they do is pocket the money, not live with the consequences of their "treatment". Did you know that Kennedy Sr. destroyed his daughter's life by taking her to a doctor to "tame" her and incapacitated her for life when the procedure went wrong? If you are happy taking such risks, good for you. But telling other people to not seek and research alternative options reeks of an attitude that the clergy used to have in the middle ages before the Renaissance when pursuit of knowledge was discouraged.

And please don't click the link if you refer only to Doctors for your health issues, lest you get a fit: http://suketuhealth.weebly.com/ganoderma--kidney.html
Last edited by Igor_Kavinski on Sun Dec 29, 2019 5:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
Redocbew
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Re: Kempner Rice Diet

Sun Dec 29, 2019 5:49 am

Icepicks are pretty badass, actually. Didn't you ever see Basic Instinct?

Yes, I admit it. We're all like that.
Last edited by Redocbew on Sun Dec 29, 2019 5:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Igor_Kavinski
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Re: Kempner Rice Diet

Sun Dec 29, 2019 5:52 am

Redocbew wrote:
Icepicks are pretty badass, actually. Didn't you ever see Basic Instinct?


Do jest and serious health issues mix? Maybe in your mind.
 
Redocbew
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Re: Kempner Rice Diet

Sun Dec 29, 2019 6:01 am

I'm not kidding. Icepicks are badass. They even did one of those on an episode of House, I think, or at least they tried. I think that was the episode where Foreman had gone blind from some disease and they were trying to figure out how to fix it before it killed him.

House is pretty badass also. A dude who will do anything to prove he's right even if it destroys his life and makes him miserable is what everyone on the internet really wants to be, no?
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Igor_Kavinski
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Re: Kempner Rice Diet

Sun Dec 29, 2019 7:14 am

Redocbew wrote:
A dude who will do anything to prove he's right even if it destroys his life and makes him miserable is what everyone on the internet really wants to be, no?


I don't care about proving myself to be right. I only want to alleviate the suffering of unwitting people trapped into thinking that doctors are their only hope.
 
just brew it!
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Re: Kempner Rice Diet

Sun Dec 29, 2019 7:32 am

Igor_Kavinski wrote:
Redocbew wrote:
A dude who will do anything to prove he's right even if it destroys his life and makes him miserable is what everyone on the internet really wants to be, no?

I don't care about proving myself to be right. I only want to alleviate the suffering of unwitting people trapped into thinking that doctors are their only hope.

The danger is that it will give people false hope, and/or that people will pursue ineffective (or even harmful) alternative treatments INSTEAD OF methods which have been clinically proven to be effective. Helping to spread medical misinformation and encouraging (whether directly or indirectly) people to NOT go to a doctor are potentially very harmful.
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Igor_Kavinski
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Re: Kempner Rice Diet

Sun Dec 29, 2019 7:42 am

just brew it! wrote:
The danger is that it will give people false hope, and/or that people will pursue ineffective (or even harmful) alternative treatments INSTEAD OF methods which have been clinically proven to be effective. Helping to spread medical misinformation and encouraging (whether directly or indirectly) people to NOT go to a doctor are potentially very harmful.


I'm not telling them to NOT go to a doctor. I'm telling them that if the doctor's advice is ineffective, they can look for other options beyond the mainstream medical community and might even be successful in treating their condition depending on their luck. People have a choice. They can suffer or they can look for better treatment options. Whether or not it might lead to danger is something they should assess the risk of for themselves.
 
bthylafh
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Re: Kempner Rice Diet

Sun Dec 29, 2019 12:20 pm

Igor_Kavinski wrote:
bthylafh wrote:
My father died of kidney failure exacerbated by his refusal to deal with his diabetes.


Your father would be alive if FDA hadn't blocked Pyridoxamine's sale as a supplement on the request of an A-hole Pharma that had invested $100 million in researching it. Still want to support the medical industry so they can screw you over by endangering the life of someone near and dear to you?


I'm torn here on how to respond. It's either

* "hey, **** you", or
* derisive laughter.

Someone give me a hand here.
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superjawes
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Re: Kempner Rice Diet

Sun Dec 29, 2019 12:32 pm

bthylafh wrote:
Igor_Kavinski wrote:
bthylafh wrote:
My father died of kidney failure exacerbated by his refusal to deal with his diabetes.


Your father would be alive if FDA hadn't blocked Pyridoxamine's sale as a supplement on the request of an A-hole Pharma that had invested $100 million in researching it. Still want to support the medical industry so they can screw you over by endangering the life of someone near and dear to you?


I'm torn here on how to respond. It's either

* "hey, **** you", or
* derisive laughter.

Someone give me a hand here.

Here you go.
On second thought, let's not go to TechReport. Tis a silly place.
 
Redocbew
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Re: Kempner Rice Diet

Sun Dec 29, 2019 1:24 pm

Igor_Kavinski wrote:
I don't care about proving myself to be right. I only want to alleviate the suffering of unwitting people trapped into thinking that doctors are their only hope.


You're doing it wrong. You don't get to decide what is true and what isn't. Neither do I. If you jump off a building, then you're going to hit the ground. That's not an opinion which is up for debate. It's just the way things work, and finding out stuff like that is the whole point of science. It's about finding what is true regardless of whether you believe it or not.

Any big scary boogeymen or grand conspirators looking to hide this fact from "unwitting people" are going to have their work cut out for them, because it's pretty easy to do the experiment for yourself and find out. The outcome might be bad for those involved, but that's why we test things in a controlled environment first before unleashing them on the public as you seem to be advocating. I have a hard time believing you'd support the widespread practice of squishing people in order to test the theory of gravity, but you don't seem to have any problem doing something similar by means of bad medical advise.

Igor_Kavinski wrote:
I'm not telling them to NOT go to a doctor.


Yes, you are. If your boogeymen are real, then why would anyone go to a real doctor? If your boogeymen are real, then they're either extremely rare, or are doing an extremely good job at staying hidden. If they're as rare as that mad scientist who may be out there somewhere squishing people in order to test our theory of gravity, then I don't think you need to worry about them. If your boogeymen are real and common, then you should be commended as being one of the very few who has the intellect to see behind the curtain and the courage and perseverance to inform the world of their existence.

superjawes wrote:


NOT A DUCK.

bthylafh wrote:
I'm torn here on how to respond. It's either

* "hey, **** you", or
* derisive laughter.

Someone give me a hand here.


I just used a lot of words to do both. Are we good here?
Do not meddle in the affairs of archers, for they are subtle and you won't hear them coming.
 
JustAnEngineer
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Re: Kempner Rice Diet

Sun Dec 29, 2019 2:09 pm

bthylafh wrote:
My father died of kidney failure...
Igor_Kavinski wrote:
{Insane conspiracy theory b.s.}
bthylafh wrote:
I'm torn here on how to respond.... Someone give me a hand here.
This is probably one of those situations where it’s safe to take both options, just to be sure that the most appropriate choice has been covered.
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Igor_Kavinski
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Re: Kempner Rice Diet

Sun Dec 29, 2019 2:45 pm

I don't get what is hard to understand about what I posted about Pyridoxamine. It prevents glycation in a diabetic kidney and hence protects it from damage. Had it been available freely, people would be using it. And it WAS available freely and people WERE using it before it was banned by the FDA. Pyridoxamine is still available for sale in the EU. It has and still is saving the lives of people there. But not in USA. Because money is king in USA and takes precedence over the welfare of the common man. What is so hard to comprehend here? And instead of being mad at your system, you are hell bent on calling me unscientific and a conspiracy theorist. Does no one here think logically?
 
just brew it!
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Re: Kempner Rice Diet

Sun Dec 29, 2019 3:02 pm

TBH the situation surrounding regulation of pyridoxamine does smell; someone likely got paid off. However, AFAICT the benefits of taking it for human kidney health are all hypothetical at this point, with no conclusive clinical trial results to date. So meh.
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Redocbew
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Re: Kempner Rice Diet

Sun Dec 29, 2019 3:42 pm

Just from reading the wiki page it sounds like the opposite of what Igor is talking about. It's vitamin B6, and there was some company trying to patent a form of it and sell it as a drug, but they couldn't get the funding and failed. That's why it's "not available".
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Igor_Kavinski
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Re: Kempner Rice Diet

Sun Dec 29, 2019 3:46 pm

just brew it! wrote:
However, AFAICT the benefits of taking it for human kidney health are all hypothetical at this point, with no conclusive clinical trial results to date. So meh.


https://www.lifeextension.com/magazine/ ... ridoxamine
 
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Re: Kempner Rice Diet

Sun Dec 29, 2019 4:08 pm

Redocbew wrote:
Just from reading the wiki page it sounds like the opposite of what Igor is talking about. It's vitamin B6, and there was some company trying to patent a form of it and sell it as a drug, but they couldn't get the funding and failed. That's why it's "not available".

Not quite. They got the FDA to declare it a "drug", so it can no longer be legally sold as a "dietary supplement" (which is regulated differently from drugs).
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just brew it!
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Re: Kempner Rice Diet

Sun Dec 29, 2019 4:16 pm

Igor_Kavinski wrote:
just brew it! wrote:
However, AFAICT the benefits of taking it for human kidney health are all hypothetical at this point, with no conclusive clinical trial results to date. So meh.

https://www.lifeextension.com/magazine/ ... ridoxamine

That same page claims that pyridoxal is even more effective, and not banned. I see it for sale on Amazon.

OTOH, that web site belongs to a company that sells pyridoxal, so that also must be taken with a grain of salt.
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Igor_Kavinski
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Re: Kempner Rice Diet

Sun Dec 29, 2019 5:07 pm

just brew it! wrote:
Igor_Kavinski wrote:
just brew it! wrote:
However, AFAICT the benefits of taking it for human kidney health are all hypothetical at this point, with no conclusive clinical trial results to date. So meh.

https://www.lifeextension.com/magazine/ ... ridoxamine

That same page claims that pyridoxal is even more effective, and not banned. I see it for sale on Amazon.

OTOH, that web site belongs to a company that sells pyridoxal, so that also must be taken with a grain of salt.


P5P is effective in theory. Extensive studies have not been done to determine its anti-glycation effect in humans. Pyridoxamine's role in prolonging kidney survival in Diabetes is well established. Which one would you be comfortable using?

https://www.hindawi.com/journals/bmri/2017/2682861/

I haven't found any comparable study for P5P.
 
Redocbew
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Re: Kempner Rice Diet

Sun Dec 29, 2019 6:24 pm

just brew it! wrote:
Not quite. They got the FDA to declare it a "drug", so it can no longer be legally sold as a "dietary supplement" (which is regulated differently from drugs).


Yeah, probably some shenanigans involved there maybe from some competitor trying to improve their position, but like you said that doesn't mean anything about it's efficacy as a treatment. Megacorps being nasty is one thing, and it does happen, but using that as a means to justify some personal crusade for a pet theory is quite another.
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Redocbew
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Re: Kempner Rice Diet

Sun Dec 29, 2019 8:14 pm

Igor_Kavinski wrote:
Pyridoxamine's role in prolonging kidney survival in Diabetes is well established.


No, it isn't. You can think of that paper you linked as a proof of concept. It's a preclinical trial which says "this might be possible", and furthermore it focuses on a very specific side effect of diabetes. It's not presented as a cure or even a treatment for the disease its self. If you were to scale up the dosage they gave those rats of 150 milligrams per kilogram per day into an average human weight of about 130 pounds(~62 kg), then you'd be well into the range of vitamin B6 toxicity. Will the results hold with a lower dose per kilogram? Will the results hold in human testing at all? We don't know. More testing is required.
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Igor_Kavinski
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Re: Kempner Rice Diet

Sun Dec 29, 2019 11:29 pm

Redocbew wrote:
Will the results hold with a lower dose per kilogram? Will the results hold in human testing at all? We don't know. More testing is required.


https://jasn.asnjournals.org/content/23/1/6

OK, I stand corrected. Patients received 250 to 300mg twice a day in that study. While they showed improved parameters, the treatment group also had more deaths. Despite no direct causation being established, this is concerning. So I was wrong in thinking that Pyridoxamine could save lives. I apologize.
 
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Re: Kempner Rice Diet

Mon Dec 30, 2019 9:57 am

Igor_Kavinski wrote:
Redocbew wrote:
Will the results hold with a lower dose per kilogram? Will the results hold in human testing at all? We don't know. More testing is required.

https://jasn.asnjournals.org/content/23/1/6

OK, I stand corrected. Patients received 250 to 300mg twice a day in that study. While they showed improved parameters, the treatment group also had more deaths. Despite no direct causation being established, this is concerning. So I was wrong in thinking that Pyridoxamine could save lives. I apologize.

Yes... with any treatment you need to weigh potential benefits against potential side-effects. The old saying "the cure is worse than the disease" is sometimes literally true.
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