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derFunkenstein
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Re: Something's different...

Mon Jul 15, 2019 10:03 am

I think they recognize it's in their best interests to foster community and get more people to regularly participate. That's why the contributors have stressed the need to integrate the forums into the front page like the old design. These things don't happen overnight, though. If you care about TR I'm still trying to encourage patience. How much each person chooses to extend is up to them, obviously.
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Redocbew
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Re: Something's different...

Mon Jul 15, 2019 10:20 am

Has there been any talk about generating revenue through means other than advertising? Obviously bugs are bad for business, but trying to double down on what didn't work before I think would be much more concerning than any of the temporary problems that have come about through this migration. Personally I see no problem in prioritizing projects which will actively bring the site into the black over other projects which don't.
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Crayon Shin Chan
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Re: Something's different...

Mon Jul 15, 2019 10:23 am

Redocbew wrote:
Has there been any talk about generating revenue through means other than advertising? Obviously bugs are bad for business, but trying to double down on what didn't work before I think would be much more concerning than any of the temporary problems that have come about through this migration. Personally I see no problem in prioritizing projects which will actively bring the site into the black over other projects which don't.


This is by far the most important topic, far more than any whining about the design or article quality. Would love to hear the owners' current thoughts on this.

T-shirts are irrelevant for me. Computer tools branded with TR, sure. Patreon seems to work very well.
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derFunkenstein
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Re: Something's different...

Mon Jul 15, 2019 10:48 am

Others might know better but that's a little above my pay grade. :lol:
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FireGryphon
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Re: Something's different...

Mon Jul 15, 2019 11:51 am

derFunkenstein wrote:
I think they recognize it's in their best interests to foster community and get more people to regularly participate.


What is the evidence of this?

That's why the contributors have stressed the need to integrate the forums into the front page like the old design. These things don't happen overnight, though.


Yes, they most literally do. We woke up and found a redesigned homepage that removed the focus from the community: it makes comments difficult and removes the focus on hot threads and comments (among other things).

If you care about TR I'm still trying to encourage patience. How much each person chooses to extend is up to them, obviously.


The people who aren’t willing to give any more of chance have already gone. The rest of us are still here. I like to think that we complain because we care. If we didn’t care enough, we’d be gone, too. We just need some evidence of positive change, which so far hasn’t happened.
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derFunkenstein
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Re: Something's different...

Mon Jul 15, 2019 11:56 am

That is demonstrably not true. The feature article was added back pretty quickly, as an example.
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cphite
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Re: Something's different...

Mon Jul 15, 2019 12:40 pm

FireGryphon wrote:
If you care about TR I'm still trying to encourage patience. How much each person chooses to extend is up to them, obviously.


The people who aren’t willing to give any more of chance have already gone. The rest of us are still here. I like to think that we complain because we care. If we didn’t care enough, we’d be gone, too. We just need some evidence of positive change, which so far hasn’t happened.


Literally within the first couple of hours since the changeover, they've made fixes to issues that people have brought to their attention.

Look, there is plenty that's been wrong about this whole ordeal... the changeover was handled and communicated very poorly; the new design is plain and cheap and looks like a typical click-bait crap site. A simple introduction would have gone a LONG way... but they do appear to be at least listening to issues because they've fixed a few of them.

I know some folks are expecting that the new owners (and let's be clear - they're the new OWNERS) are gonna just throw up their hands and say sorry and revert back to the old design. I seriously doubt that is going to happen. The best we can expect - realistically - is that they acknowledge the community and do what they can to accommodate while also sticking to their new business model. The best thing we can do towards that end is offer them constructive criticism and let them know when things aren't working.

I think that collectively we've made it clear that we aren't thrilled... but if all we do moving forward is bitch and threaten to leave, they'll eventually decide that they have no reason to care what we think. It's that simple. The less we act like a community that wants the site to succeed, the more inclined they'll be to forget about community and focus strictly on sources of revenue.
 
Glorious
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Re: Something's different...

Mon Jul 15, 2019 12:44 pm

FireGryphon wrote:
What is the evidence of this?


They paid real money for it?

FireGryphon wrote:
Yes, they most literally do. We woke up and found a redesigned homepage that removed the focus from the community: it makes comments difficult and removes the focus on hot threads and comments (among other things).


Really not the same thing, breaking something is totally different than making something.

What derfunk is trying to tell you is that you could have woken up and found nothing at all. That's literally the alternative here, and, if it had happened that way, the person(s) who has been keeping it running for many months now would have likely taken a bath. For that reason alone, yeah, I'm glad we woke up the way we did.

Yes, you keep saying that you appreciate that, but believe me, we all understand the threat of "I'll take my business elsewhere!" Heck, the TR guys *REALLY* understand it: It's been happening non-stop for 7 or more years.

For THOUSANDS of days they've woken up and faced the reality of "It's collapsing". They didn't leave in a huff, they've worked for free or put their own money on the line.

So, instead of saying you don't appreciate what happened (who does?!), maybe you should try appreciating what they've done to prevent it for as long as they have?

FireGryphon wrote:
The people who aren’t willing to give any more of chance have already gone. The rest of us are still here. I like to think that we complain because we care. If we didn’t care enough, we’d be gone, too. We just need some evidence of positive change, which so far hasn’t happened.


That sounds like an ultimatum, and what's the point of that?

If you want the emotional finality of walking away, that's available at any time for all time. Why draw attention to the obvious? It's not a new threat, it's the ever-present threat.

Maybe instead of telling them what they need to do for us (when they hold most, if not all, of the cards here), we should try and ask what we can do for them. They clearly saw something of value in us, and while it might not be exactly what we want, exactly what we want means the site is over immediately ('cause it was over months and months ago) and NONE OF US gets a choice AT ALL.

So perhaps we ought to try and figure out how to make ourselves MORE valuable so that some semblance of SOMETHING is left. Otherwise, gee, what does this achieve? Are we trying to make them regret their mistake of buying out the guys who kept the lights on as long as they did?
Last edited by Glorious on Mon Jul 15, 2019 12:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
FireGryphon
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Re: Something's different...

Mon Jul 15, 2019 12:50 pm

There are some who condemn the new design and just leave. On the other extreme there are people who say it’s OK, the new owners care, they’re making changes, so let’s stay. Both opinions have merit. One doesn’t want to throw out the baby with the bath water, but at the same time, I don’t consider that learning how to pin an article counts as responding to the community.
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ludi
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Re: Something's different...

Mon Jul 15, 2019 12:55 pm

Know what goes really good with grouse? A nice sage-butter rub and a side of seasonable vegetables.
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Glorious
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Re: Something's different...

Mon Jul 15, 2019 1:09 pm

FireGryphon wrote:
There are some who condemn the new design and just leave. On the other extreme there are people who say it’s OK, the new owners care, they’re making changes, so let’s stay. Both opinions have merit. One doesn’t want to throw out the baby with the bath water, but at the same time, I don’t consider that learning how to pin an article counts as responding to the community.


If you have truly "ghosted" this site, no, your opinion doesn't have merit.

Why?

Because you're really no different than someone who never knew the site in the first place. It's like asking Martian what they think of TR, it just doesn't matter. It'd be like asking me my opinion of some newspaper in Mozambique I've never heard of: who cares?

----

If the change was unconscionable and unbearable, OK.

Seriously. OK: Fin.

It's over, really over. GAME OVER MAN. To that person, it's like the lights went out out the previous Sunday. <shrug> whelp, we had some good times. Pour a libation.

---

HOWEVER, if you are still here, and you constantly talk about how PEOPLE MIGHT LEAVE AND THIS IS VALID: look, yeah, but this is a conversation you're having with yourself. Kubler-Ross, Stage 4.

Your concerns are noted. What do you think you are achieving here?
 
Srsly_Bro
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Re: Something's different...

Mon Jul 15, 2019 2:07 pm

5 stages of grieving.

1. Denial
2. Anger
3. Bargaining
4. Depression
5. Acceptance.

At the new "TR"

1. Denial
2. Anger
3. Anger
4. Anger
5. Depression

I'm still in the 2nd anger phase.
 
FireGryphon
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Re: Something's different...

Mon Jul 15, 2019 2:19 pm

Gosh, the tone of these responses is getting a bit heated. There’s some pretty hurtful things I read up there. Sorry if I offended anyone personally with my question. I genuinely thought it was a logical next question to ask in this process.
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Meadows
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Re: Something's different...

Mon Jul 15, 2019 2:21 pm

cphite wrote:
Literally within the first couple of hours since the changeover, they've made fixes to issues that people have brought to their attention.

Yes, a few issues, in what you can call a "couple of hours". At the same time, they've decided to ignore several more, similarly (or more) "serious" issues for over a full week with no changes in sight. Nobody knows what they think, or plan, or if they even have a schedule for rolling out updates.
 
Glorious
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Re: Something's different...

Mon Jul 15, 2019 2:50 pm

FireGryphon wrote:
Gosh, the tone of these responses is getting a bit heated. There’s some pretty hurtful things I read up there.


We're all frustrated and unhappy with this turn of events one way or the other, believe me.

And please don't think that the more "heated" responses were directed specifically at you. For instance, when you are speaking rhetorically of those who have already left, well, I'm responding to that hypothetical construct.

Either way, by definition they are not here. Just as you aren't actually speaking for them, I'm not actually speaking to you.

---

Real-talk: The only people we're actually talking to here that have any meaningful involvement in this are people like derfunk and drfish, and they've both done as much as anyone here can rightfully expect. Our displeasure has been made known as far as we have power to express it, so I'm just suggesting that maybe we try a different tack here.

FireGryphon wrote:
Sorry if I offended anyone personally with my question. I genuinely thought it was a logical next question to ask in this process.


I'm really not sure what the question is. You seem to be demanding evidence that new owners "care".

I'm not sure who you are demanding it from, exactly, but you're talking to what are essentially volunteers who are stuck in the very uncomfortable middle of this. All they can do is relay what their take is, and since they're still here volunteering, yeah, they take a more positive view.
 
derFunkenstein
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Re: Something's different...

Mon Jul 15, 2019 3:02 pm

I think we need to take a minute to explore the freelance writer / content platform relationship. It's vendor / customer, not employee / manager. I "answer" to ownership in the same way a business answers to any customer. I represent the site in the content I provide, but otherwise I'm Ben Blowhard, Guy on the Street. If I want business to continue, I need to keep customers happy.

One way this relationship is similar to the traditional employee / manager relationship is that my customers (TR, HH, and whoever else wants to pay for this drivel) don't tell me every detail about how they're handling the business. The contributors have literally told all there is to tell from our perspectives, because it's all we know. That isn't good enough, I guess.

Edit: and if you want TR to succeed, I would plan on seeing more unfamiliar faces on the home page, because one or two posts a day isn't going to get readership levels up.
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Usacomp2k3
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Re: Something's different...

Mon Jul 15, 2019 3:09 pm

Ya'll are in a difficult spot of this 1-way communication. We are giving lots of input, and getting no direct feedback. The indirect feedback is in the form of the very few changes that have been made. That's it. Over 8 days. The frustration isn't directed at the messengers. It is a combination of the fact that there are messengers in the first place and the lack of any real response.
 
Srsly_Bro
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Re: Something's different...

Mon Jul 15, 2019 3:15 pm

FireGryphon wrote:
Gosh, the tone of these responses is getting a bit heated. There’s some pretty hurtful things I read up there. Sorry if I offended anyone personally with my question. I genuinely thought it was a logical next question to ask in this process.


You would never offend me, bro. We all fam here and if anyone is unable to see your passion for the site, it's not your problem.
 
tanker27
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Re: Something's different...

Mon Jul 15, 2019 3:18 pm

derFunkenstein wrote:
I think they recognize it's in their best interests to foster community and get more people to regularly participate.



If that's the case then why in the H-E-DOUBLE HOCKEY STICKS have they not addressed the community they inherited!? If they believe us a an 'important' commodity then why not address us directly!? We are not children. Lay out your vision in a post and move forward. I'm not even expecting them to field any questions. Just put it out there and GO. This is my whole problem with it all.
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drfish
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Re: Something's different...

Mon Jul 15, 2019 3:20 pm

Srsly_Bro wrote:
5 stages of grieving.

1. Denial
2. Anger
3. Bargaining
4. Depression
5. Acceptance.

At the new "TR"

1. Denial
2. Anger
3. Anger
4. Anger
5. Depression

I'm still in the 2nd anger phase.


Hey, stop stealing my future headlines! ;)
 
derFunkenstein
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Re: Something's different...

Mon Jul 15, 2019 3:24 pm

tanker27 wrote:
If that's the case then why in the H-E-DOUBLE HOCKEY STICKS have they not addressed the community they inherited!? If they believe us a an 'important' commodity then why not address us directly!? We are not children. Lay out your vision in a post and move forward. I'm not even expecting them to field any questions. Just put it out there and GO. This is my whole problem with it all.

They've promised to do that. I'd like to have seen it by now, but hopefully you've read further in this thread and understand that we do not know.

At this point, repeatedly asking the same question we don't have an answer for feels to me like you're trying to run us off. I'm trying to remind myself that this isn't your motive, but if y'all could have a little sympathy for the messengers, it'd be nice.
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Redocbew
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Re: Something's different...

Mon Jul 15, 2019 3:29 pm

IF YOU ARE THE MESSANGERS THEN YOU CARRY MESSAGES IF NOT GO DO GYMNASTICS WITH SSK!
Do not meddle in the affairs of archers, for they are subtle and you won't hear them coming.
 
tanker27
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Re: Something's different...

Mon Jul 15, 2019 3:30 pm

Glorious wrote:
I'm not sure who you are demanding it from, exactly, but you're talking to what are essentially volunteers who are stuck in the very uncomfortable middle of this. All they can do is relay what their take is, and since they're still here volunteering, yeah, they take a more positive view.


For me personally; Maybe on the off (a very very slim) chance, the two new overlords are actually reading any of this. And since its been put out there that SEO is paramount that the new SEO will direct them to this thread that have the new overlords name's in it.

But then again, this thread/forum may go poof too and be rebooted from day one. We don't know, but it's possible.

Is it tenable? Probably not. But it's worth a chance.
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Srsly_Bro
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Re: Something's different...

Mon Jul 15, 2019 3:34 pm

drfish wrote:
Srsly_Bro wrote:
5 stages of grieving.

1. Denial
2. Anger
3. Bargaining
4. Depression
5. Acceptance.

At the new "TR"

1. Denial
2. Anger
3. Anger
4. Anger
5. Depression

I'm still in the 2nd anger phase.


Hey, stop stealing my future headlines! ;)


Lmao. I would love to see your take on this.
 
tanker27
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Re: Something's different...

Mon Jul 15, 2019 3:35 pm

derFunkenstein wrote:
tanker27 wrote:
If that's the case then why in the H-E-DOUBLE HOCKEY STICKS have they not addressed the community they inherited!? If they believe us a an 'important' commodity then why not address us directly!? We are not children. Lay out your vision in a post and move forward. I'm not even expecting them to field any questions. Just put it out there and GO. This is my whole problem with it all.

They've promised to do that. I'd like to have seen it by now, but hopefully you've read further in this thread and understand that we do not know.

At this point, repeatedly asking the same question we don't have an answer for feels to me like you're trying to run us off. I'm trying to remind myself that this isn't your motive, but if y'all could have a little sympathy for the messengers, it'd be nice.


Touche'. I need to say that nothing I have posted was directed at you all. If you felt that way I do apologize, It's was never my intention. I do not envy y'alls situation at all. In fact I said as much to drfish in a PM.
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Redocbew
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Re: Something's different...

Mon Jul 15, 2019 3:41 pm

tanker27 wrote:
For me personally; Maybe on the off (a very very slim) chance, the two new overlords are actually reading any of this. And since its been put out there that SEO is paramount that the new SEO will direct them to this thread that have the new overlords name's in it.

But then again, this thread/forum may go poof too and be rebooted from day one. We don't know, but it's possible.


Hmm... can't tell if serious...

I know I was the one to throw shade on SEO as a deterministic practice, but let's not create another Roko's Basilisk out of this.
Do not meddle in the affairs of archers, for they are subtle and you won't hear them coming.
 
Glorious
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Re: Something's different...

Mon Jul 15, 2019 3:52 pm

tanker27 wrote:
For me personally; Maybe on the off (a very very slim) chance, the two new overlords are actually reading any of this. And since its been put out there that SEO is paramount that the new SEO will direct them to this thread that have the new overlords name's in it.


Whether or not any of us, for one, welcome our new overlords, the reality remains that if those overlords are remotely interested there are now like 22 pages or something of this to review. Plus difficult to follow and authenticate frontpage comments. ;)

Meanwhile, the volunteers/freebooters who are unquestionably ONE OF US, ONE OF US, have been tirelessly, tactfully, and very conscientiously fielding the same sort of questions/demands over and over.

So, as a participant in this community not renown for his tact himself, I'm bluntly asking what are we trying to elicit here?

I'm also telling, less subtly, that if they simply do in microcosm (this thread) what people are not-so-subtly threatening to do in macrocosm (this site) and just walk away, what would we have here?

Not much, so let's try and take the more positive route just as they have. Otherwise, yeah, you know, we're just seething in the darkness with the short end of the stick (guys, the new owners own the copyright to all the content on here--if we persist in all-or-nothing ultimatums and let endless indignation spill over everywhere and they actually -DO- throw in the towel, we can lose that!)

EDIT: To be clear, if drfish, derfunk etc... decided to just take a break or sulk or do basically anything other than what they did, we would be even more confused and potentially even less would be fixed. They are our lifeline here, so repeatedly tugging on it because we're unhappy that it's all we have is... unwise?
 
Captain Ned
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Re: Something's different...

Mon Jul 15, 2019 4:50 pm

derFunkenstein wrote:
sympathy for the messengers

There's a great version of that on Get Your YaYas Out.
What we have today is way too much pluribus and not enough unum.
 
haakon_k
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Re: Something's different...

Mon Jul 15, 2019 4:52 pm

ludi wrote:
Know what goes really good with grouse? A nice sage-butter rub and a side of seasonable vegetables.


Thanks, I'll try that. I love grouse, best food (really, when my father makes it).

More to the point; the generic website is horrificly horrible in its genericness and lack of attention, and cannot seriously be meant even as a proposal to attract new viewers /punters /clicks /recurring users. And currently nothing is happening after the silly change, the site is asleep contentwise and no listening to all the advice given. The old site had a lovely character and a mostly good understanding of presenting content. How hard can it be to remake that, starting with low-hanging fruit basics, and take it from there? Pretty please?

The new owners and employees must listen to the grownups (now!), and at least listen to the doctor (you know you should), if they don't want want to totally lose out on their investment - and yes, I for 1 will scream "DOOM". I used to love my daily visits here, not anymore.
Last edited by haakon_k on Mon Jul 15, 2019 6:34 pm, edited 2 times in total.
 
drfish
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Re: Something's different...

Mon Jul 15, 2019 5:16 pm

We've done what we can. I'm not freaking out because I know why the dev hasn't made any other moves yet (it's logical, but it's not my information to share). However, except for that, I'm in the same boat as the rest of you, waiting to see if what we all want will be implemented. Just chugging along for now.

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