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Cyril
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TR Wikipedia article flagged for deletion

Thu Jul 18, 2019 2:58 pm

Hello gerbils!

Just poking my head in after a far too lengthy absence to ask for your help. The Wikipedia article for TR has been flagged for deletion because of supposedly insufficient external sources. I'm currently swamped managing the launch of FORM, where I've been working since 2017, so I don't have the bandwidth to fight this fight. But I'd be sad to see TR's place in PC hardware history forgotten.

Edit: Quoting a couple of important comments from below:

dragontamer5788 wrote:
The very existence of this topic will be suspect for the Wikipedia Admins: this is technically brigading if we all go over there and start making comments. I used to frequent Wikipedia like 10+ years ago, they have all sorts of obscure rules and regulations if you want to actually get things done.


Topinio wrote:
Yeah. Don't brigade, don't register now and make your first/only contribution to argue against this, don't not follow their rules. But, if you're already active on Wikipedia, by all means think about whether the entry on TR should exist, and if you think it should I don't see any harm in contributing positively to the discussion on that.
 
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Re: TR Wikipedia article flagged for deletion

Thu Jul 18, 2019 3:30 pm

Since one of the reasons used on the suggestion is the out-of-date About page, and because the request was made on July 11, I imagine it's a disgruntled gerbil who made the recommendation.

If the new management won't update the About page it's a losing battle. I've notified them of the situation.

Thanks, Cyril. Nice to see you around. :)
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Re: TR Wikipedia article flagged for deletion

Thu Jul 18, 2019 3:37 pm

The timing is kind of suspicious. If the new overlords are all about SEO, then you'd think they would want to be on top of that. With Google embedding wiki pages in their search results the two are hard to separate these days.
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Re: TR Wikipedia article flagged for deletion

Thu Jul 18, 2019 3:50 pm

Redocbew wrote:
The timing is kind of suspicious. If the new overlords are all about SEO, then you'd think they would want to be on top of that. With Google embedding wiki pages in their search results the two are hard to separate these days.

Not just Google, Apple does it on iOS too with Siri, and apparently so does Amazon with Alexa searches.

The user who flagged it, seems to have a thing for deletion / wikipedia purity, not sure it's a disgruntled gerbil but the account is only just over a year old.

Edit, as auxy has already chipped in on the deletion discussion: if you want to do so, be sure to follow the correct format
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia ... Discussion
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Re: TR Wikipedia article flagged for deletion

Thu Jul 18, 2019 4:05 pm

The very existence of this topic will be suspect for the Wikipedia Admins: this is technically brigading if we all go over there and start making comments. I used to frequent Wikipedia like 10+ years ago, they have all sorts of obscure rules and regulations if you want to actually get things done.

I'm not entirely sure how to help, but following the rules of Wikipedia is very important.
 
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Re: TR Wikipedia article flagged for deletion

Thu Jul 18, 2019 4:10 pm

dragontamer5788 wrote:
The very existence of this topic will be suspect for the Wikipedia Admins: this is technically brigading if we all go over there and start making comments. I used to frequent Wikipedia like 10+ years ago, they have all sorts of obscure rules and regulations if you want to actually get things done.

I'm not entirely sure how to help, but following the rules of Wikipedia is very important.

Yeah. Don't brigade, don't register now and make your first/only contribution to argue against this, don't not follow their rules. But, if you're already active on Wikipedia, by all means think about whether the entry on TR should exist, and if you think it should I don't see any harm in contributing positively to the discussion on that.
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Re: TR Wikipedia article flagged for deletion

Thu Jul 18, 2019 4:16 pm

If you don't want to be sad don't compare the 2018 Alexa site ranking on the TR Wikipedia page to the current ranking of 52000+.
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Cyril
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Re: TR Wikipedia article flagged for deletion

Fri Jul 19, 2019 12:38 am

Interesting. The guy who submitted the article for deletion (Omgwtfbbqsomethingrandom) initially described TR as a "a random tech site which contains reviews for products that were also reviewed on multiple other similar sites, not really notable for anything significant according to Google Search and other search engines and cannot be improved in any way."

Then, today, in a response to one of you guys, he wrote, "Mr. Scott Wasson (whom I love dearly and been following on Twitter for many years and went to BBQ with, all of which has no relevance to encyclopedic value of this article)."

So, two things. First, this guy is contradicting himself about TR not being notable for anything significant, since he's obviously a long-time TR reader and knows all about TR's work on frame-time benchmarking. Second, he's just dead wrong about the lack of notable sources mentioning that work (this one took me literally 30 seconds to find). Third, my guess is that this person is pissed off about the redesign/ownership change and is lashing out in his own, weird way. Which, hey, maybe it makes him feel better, but some of us put a lot of work and many years of our careers into this site, and we don't want that work scrubbed from the Internet just because some guy with a Wikipedia account is in a bad mood.

</vent>
 
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Re: TR Wikipedia article flagged for deletion

Fri Jul 19, 2019 6:21 am

@cyril, That really is a weird way to vent.
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Re: TR Wikipedia article flagged for deletion

Fri Jul 19, 2019 7:18 am

Seems like toddler behavior. They are mad so they are going to break everyone's toy because it's not the one they want, even if it's special.
 
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Re: TR Wikipedia article flagged for deletion

Fri Jul 19, 2019 7:59 am

On July 7, 2019, coinciding with the release of AMD's Ryzen 3 CPUs and Navi GPUs, a site redesign was launched moving from the Tech Report's former custom CMS and functionality to a generic Wordpress template. On July 9th, and without introducing herself or explaining her role at Tech Report, Renee Johnson posted an introduction to the design[12]. The new redesign was met with harsh criticism from the users.


The way this sentence was written in the Wikipedia article is completely childish in nature, for an "encyclopedia" - what a weird way to vent indeed...
 
Aether
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Re: TR Wikipedia article flagged for deletion

Fri Jul 19, 2019 9:29 am

I glanced through the Wikipedia deletion policy, and I do not see how the entry for The Tech Report meets the criteria. Unfortunately, I do not already have an account on Wikipedia, and it sounds like registering now to comment on the deletion request would be counterproductive.
 
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Re: TR Wikipedia article flagged for deletion

Fri Jul 19, 2019 9:32 am

qmacpoint wrote:
On July 7, 2019, coinciding with the release of AMD's Ryzen 3 CPUs and Navi GPUs, a site redesign was launched moving from the Tech Report's former custom CMS and functionality to a generic Wordpress template. On July 9th, and without introducing herself or explaining her role at Tech Report, Renee Johnson posted an introduction to the design[12]. The new redesign was met with harsh criticism from the users.


The way this sentence was written in the Wikipedia article is completely childish in nature, for an "encyclopedia" - what a weird way to vent indeed...

To be fair this one was added by IronSean, not Omgwtfbbqsomethingrandom who nominated the deletion.
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Re: TR Wikipedia article flagged for deletion

Fri Jul 19, 2019 9:33 am

If there are any other wikipedians, Concentrate2's reply is one hundred percent on point.

This has the hallmark of a partisan deletion nomination. Omgwtfbbqsomethingrandom clearly stated their personal investment in Techreport. Wikipedia's NPOV isn't just a principle for the articles themselves, but a fundamental principle of the entire project and someone who not only attends Techreport community events (the BBQ, a real-life event people physically travel hundreds of miles to) and therefore personally knows many of the prominent members (including following and "love dearly" the original founder of Techreport), has a clear conflict of interest that calls into the question that this is a truly NPOV action.

An additional factor is how this deletion nomination came on the heels of an contentious ownership change at Techreport, which many in the TR online community (which, again, Omgwtfbbqsomethingrandom self-admits real-life participation in--not just online!) really did not like. Thus the argument that TR is "brigading" wikipedia because of two commentators, one of which at least was clearly a long-term pre-existing wikipedian, is misplaced. In essence, this has the appearance of the exact opposite: Omgwtfbbqsomethingrandom cannot avoid the implication that this is taking an internal Techreport dispute (a community they participate in!), and using wikipedia as another venue for it. It might be just one person, yes, but that sort of situation is the actual essence of brigading: A community's agenda spilling over into a second community for an agenda that only really involves the first community.

In short, TR doesn't want to brigade wikipedia. Not at all! In fact, we're concerned that a SINGLE individual (who self-admits -serious- TR involvement!) is bringing our drama over to Wikipedia, and we're just trying to clean up that mess without creating new ones.
 
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Re: TR Wikipedia article flagged for deletion

Fri Jul 19, 2019 9:45 am

Reading more about wikipedia's specific principles and guidelines, this is clearly a case of

WP:APPARENTCOI

to the point where it's almost the listed example:

Wikipedia wrote:
Editors have an apparent COI if they edit an article about a business, and for some reason they appear to be the business owner, although they may actually have no such connection


The wikipedian proposing deletion, once again, self-admits that they "love dearly" the original business owner, that they have followed him for many years and that they have even met him personally for community events.

The nomination for deletion occurred immediately after an ownership change in which the old guard of the site, the legacy of the original owner, was exchanged for a new guard of an ownership that has no relationship to that legacy.

So, not only does a real connection exist in this case, but the "tendency to bias" here is enormous.

As Wikipedia says: "Apparent COI causes bad feeling within the community and should be resolved through discussion whenever possible."

Without assessing the legitimacy of Omgwtfbbqsomethingrandom motivations, this situation unavoidably draws itself towards discredit. Of course people, both at Wikipedia and at TR, are going to have "bad feelings" over this---it just looks biased as all get out, regardless of whether or not it is.
 
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Re: TR Wikipedia article flagged for deletion

Fri Jul 19, 2019 10:01 am

To be clear, within TWO DAYS of the ownership change being publicly reported on Techreport's frontpage, Omgwtfbbqsomethingrandom, who admits to be long-term participant at Techreport, suddenly decided it was time to delete wikipedia's article on it because, as they later clarified their position:

Omgwtfbbqsomethingrandom wrote:
The article is still worthless from encyclopedic point of view


But, when they initially started the nomination, it started with:

Omgwtfbbqsomethingrandom wrote:
Article is about a random tech site


But it's not "random" at all, the nominator admits to being a participant on the site, to the extent of meeting other community members in real-life.

EDIT: For further clarity: What changed on July 11th, other than TR's ownership two days before? It cannot be that Omgwtfbbqsomethingrandom just happened across this article--they are a TR community participant!

If, indeed, Techreport is "not notable", how come Omgwtfbbqsomethingrandom, who is self-admittedly intimately familiar with it, failed to realize it until the huge controversy over the ownership change?

Techreport's community DOES NOT WANT TO BRIGADE wikipedia, in fact, we're VERY UPSET because it appears that's *EXACTLY* what one our members is doing!
 
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Re: TR Wikipedia article flagged for deletion

Fri Jul 19, 2019 10:56 am

Some really childish stuff there. I'd expect something like that out of a teenager, but the Wiki account lists as having been born in the former USSR, putting them at 28 years old minimum (but likely well into their 30's). Someone needs to grow up.
 
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Re: TR Wikipedia article flagged for deletion

Fri Jul 19, 2019 11:31 am

Glorious wrote:
If, indeed, Techreport is "not notable", how come Omgwtfbbqsomethingrandom, who is self-admittedly intimately familiar with it, failed to realize it until the huge controversy over the ownership change?

Clearly that so-called member has become so severely disillusioned that they've decided to put all of this site behind them, without realising that Wikipedia is not, in fact, their custom offline personal resource.
 
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Re: TR Wikipedia article flagged for deletion

Fri Jul 19, 2019 11:36 am

Aether wrote:
I glanced through the Wikipedia deletion policy, and I do not see how the entry for The Tech Report meets the criteria. Unfortunately, I do not already have an account on Wikipedia, and it sounds like registering now to comment on the deletion request would be counterproductive.

Yes, it would, please no-one do so. It's against Wikipedia conduct rules, specifically meatpuppetry.

Basically, this deletion request is against Wikipedia rules, because the user proposing it has a conflict of interest that they didn't declare -- they are active here, reading this thread actually and admitting it, and claim to love Scott, follow him on Twitter, and have been to the BBQ. By their own admission, they have a relationship to this site, but did not declare it.

It is a bad idea for those who aren't Wikipedia who have a good understanding of the conduct policies and processes to be getting involved over there. Don't do it, it will be viewed dimly, there is no need to sink to this person's level as they are already in the wrong.
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Re: TR Wikipedia article flagged for deletion

Fri Jul 19, 2019 11:57 am

Meadows wrote:
Clearly that so-called member has become so severely disillusioned that they've decided to put all of this site behind them, without realising that Wikipedia is not, in fact, their custom offline personal resource.

They are reading here still, as they linked to this thread in the deletion discussion over on Wikipedia, ~13 hours ago at 2019-07-19 05:01 UTC.

It is sad that one of our own has gone over there, where they've only been registered for just over a year, and started a mess because they don't like what's happened with the redesign. :( :oops:
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Re: TR Wikipedia article flagged for deletion

Fri Jul 19, 2019 1:15 pm

I would also like to note that the only commentator on the talk page for deletion who can be credibly accused of being a partisan FOR techreport, "Foxieauxy", is likely our "auxy", both on the basis of name and general approach to controversy.

While I don't want to cast aspersions, if these two users are indeed the same individual, the "auxy" here has, to my knowledge, been censured for what might euphemistically be referred to as "unnecessary vehemence" at least once in the past. As a long-time and regular participant of this community, I would submit that they are not representative of the general feeling here at Techreport. In any event this remains a singular individual, not facet of any larger effort as demonstrated by the lack of any other such contributor to the discussions at wikipedia.

Furthermore, I would suggest that Foxieauxy's actions, if indeed the same individual as "auxy", are not predicated on the existence of this thread. "auxy" has not posted here in 4 months, and according to the forum software here, has not been present since July 1, 2019. This thread was created yesterday.

That is, auxy would not appear to have any knowledge of this particular discussion, and therefore their actions may well be 100% independent of it. As I understand it, "auxy" is a frequent participant in various hardware-related IRC groups, and may well have learned of, and reacted to, the proposed wikipedia deletion entirely independent of the TR community itself, not just this particular thread.
 
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Re: TR Wikipedia article flagged for deletion

Fri Jul 19, 2019 1:28 pm

You don't need to be logged in to read the forum.
And of course auxy is auxy.
 
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Re: TR Wikipedia article flagged for deletion

Fri Jul 19, 2019 1:31 pm

I'd also like to take the opportunity to re-iterate what many other people have said here and recommend that no one who isn't already a long-time productive participant in the wikipedia community engage with the deletion discussion over there.

Even then, I am deferring to their wisdom & experience as wikipedians when it comes to what they should do, if anything. I am not a member of that community, and my instruction is solely to THIS community: I am strictly suggesting a prohibition (don't post unless X), NOT an admonition (DO post if X).

Two wrongs don't make a right.

To the extent that this a "problem" for Techreport, it's because a self-admitted member of this community has taken an action which has all the appearances of making Wikipedia a venue for Techreport drama.

That's a bad look. And it only becomes a worse one if we compound it further.

Wikipedia isn't about us, and it isn't for us. It's something else, and while I hope everything over there works out and the status quo returns (because the status quo, unlike the current proposed change, has no "odor" of conflicting interests), the whole point here is that this situation shouldn't be about our internal business.

Unfortunately, it appears that it is, but we can only make that worse by "fighting" it.

So please don't, and I'll also point out that Cyril, while a former member of staff, has not been officially involved here for many years and therefore this cannot be represented, in any form, as an instance of the editors or owners of this site trying to influence the discussion over there in any fashion. EDIT: Additionally, I now realize, he has also not posted here for well over 4 years.
Last edited by Glorious on Fri Jul 19, 2019 1:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
Glorious
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Re: TR Wikipedia article flagged for deletion

Fri Jul 19, 2019 1:40 pm

meerkt wrote:
You don't need to be logged in to read the forum.
And of course auxy is auxy.


Of course not, but why wouldn't auxy be logged in? My point is obvious: there's no evidence that foxieauxy, if our auxy, was marshaled into action on the basis of this thread. Indeed, as the very existence of this thread demonstrates, people can independently learn (as, Cyril, the OP of this thread tautologically did) of this situation and react without this thread being involved. :wink:

From the evidence at hand, it is entirely possible that foxieauxy, if auxy, is unaware of this thread and, if so, no brigading can even be alleged to have actually occurred (outside of, perhaps, the actions of the nominator).

And no, I don't know for sure that foxieauxy is our auxy, but clearly that is very likely to be the case, as I said.
 
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Re: TR Wikipedia article flagged for deletion

Fri Jul 19, 2019 2:02 pm

And, if auxy *IS* reading this thread, and is foxieauxy, please desist!

Wikipedia has very clear rules about how this sort of affair should proceed, and please, take heed of who is saying this (Me! Yes, *THAT* glorious!), and recognize they are abundantly clear that only arguments should be addressed, not arguers. Their guide that goes over this is very helpfully linked over to the right of the talk page.

Likewise, while wikipedia is a community-driven project ever-eager for new contributors, there is an automatic (and heavy) presumption against those who solely show up, once, to argue about something outside of wikipedia that involves them. Again, they want to engage people, but that's probably the only reason it isn't an absolute "NO".

So, for instance, when you start expressing your opinions about the new ownership of Techreport, well, you know---that seems to be why this whole mess started. And that, alone amidst the litany of all else, excludes your contribution from being helpful.

As I've said, the problem here would appear to be our drama. Bringing more of our drama over there, even if indirectly by just responding, can only make it worse.

And if we're just bringing that drama up, directly and gratuitously, well, do I have to say anything further? :wink:
 
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Re: TR Wikipedia article flagged for deletion

Fri Jul 19, 2019 3:09 pm

Hopefully, those that make the ultimate decision at Wikipedia hew to their deletion process policy at:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia ... on_process

If you look at the points listed under "When to use the deletion process?", none of them appear to apply here. A point that the deletion requester tried to make was regarding verifiability, but you don't have to do much work to verify that Tech Report is a hardware-review site that has existed for a couple decades. OTOH, if you look at the points under "When to not use deletion process?", there are a couple that appear to apply:

- Articles we are not interested in – some topics are of interest only to some people, but since Wikipedia is not a paper encyclopedia, articles that interest some people should be kept.
- Articles on topics you wish didn't exist for personal belief reasons – Wikipedia contains information on all topics, not just those which any person or group agrees with.

<edit - fixed typo>
 
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Re: TR Wikipedia article flagged for deletion

Fri Jul 19, 2019 11:50 pm

Glorious wrote:
And if we're just bringing that drama up, directly and gratuitously, well, do I have to say anything further? :wink:

If it was GRATUITOUS it would be self-deleting drama. #TRDeepCuts
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Re: TR Wikipedia article flagged for deletion

Sat Jul 20, 2019 1:26 am

I guess you could call it self-deprecating. :lol:

I'm not sure I like being deprecated.
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Re: TR Wikipedia article flagged for deletion

Sat Jul 20, 2019 2:25 am

The person is claiming not violating COI:
Omgwtfbbqsomethingrandom wrote:
I do not believe you understand what WP:APPARENTCOI means or implies. I do not, and never had, any financial interest in TechReports, nor am I an owner of competing business. The mere fact that I stated that I follow Mr. Scott on Twitter or has talked to him elsewhere or respect his work has absolutely no impact on my reasons for nominating this article. If you cast aside your baseless assumptions, you will see that I have nominated other articles for deletion in the past, as well as participated in votes for many others articles at AfD page.
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Re: TR Wikipedia article flagged for deletion

Sat Jul 20, 2019 3:04 am

The person who requested deletion of the wiki page has changed his vote thanks to sources users (auxy) provided that showed links from major tech news site to TRs own findings on events related to Inside the Second, AMD's Phenom TLB issue, and other significant events from recent tech history.

Keep: due to extra sources found by a very helpful new editor Foxieauxy below, which I have already incorporated into article, I would like to change my own vote to "Keep" since I believe this article now has enough sources to determine its notability. The article still requires clean-up but this has no relevance to this nomination.Omgwtfbbqsomethingrandom (talk) 03:22, 20 July 2019 (UTC)


Perhaps we should take this as a sign that the TR wiki article needs to be filled in with TRs other historical accolades. I still don't see a single mention of the TR BBQ... that's just a bit sad. I mean, who DOESN'T want a picture of Uncle... I mean Captain Ned with his potato cannon in a wiki article?
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