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Captain Ned
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Re: Glucowise

Fri Aug 23, 2019 2:15 pm

Glorious wrote:
One of these days I'm just going to succumb to the surreal....

Zappa or Bowie??
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Re: Glucowise

Fri Aug 23, 2019 2:40 pm

I am flattered to be "Igor Pavinski" now :D And no, I can't name my friend's diet as the Igor_Pavinski diet because it was Kempner's diet that made me understand the role of excess fat storage in diabetes so maybe you could call it the "slightly less scary Kempner rice+fruit diet" rather than the "OMG are you crazy???? Kempner rice+sugar diet". I only subtracted sugar from his diet.
 
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Re: Glucowise

Fri Aug 23, 2019 2:42 pm

Redocbew wrote:
So, at this point I'm not really talking to Igor_Pavinksi. I'm just following along with the thread for anyone who(for some weird reason) is still reading this thread because they're interested in the subject matter.

Fructose gets a lot of bad press, and is often singled out as the culprit in fizzy soft drinks and processed sugary foods, but the actual data isn't quite so clear cut as that. It appears that eating whole fresh fruits(one of the very few historical sources of fructose) doesn't have the same effect as the modern fizzy drinks and fruit juices.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18676134

Like most other foods, consuming excessive quantities of sugar isn't a great idea regardless of its form, but it's not as simple as saying "fructose is bad, mmmmkay?".


In order to consume tons of fructose via fresh fruits/berries. You had to eat pounds of it and deal with all of the roughage.
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Re: Glucowise

Fri Aug 23, 2019 2:43 pm

Should be Igor_Pavlovski. Mention rice and he drools.
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Re: Glucowise

Fri Aug 23, 2019 3:08 pm

Igor_Kavinski wrote:
This thread that I started first mentions what my friend ate.


Your OP in that thread starts with a link (which contains the Kempner rice diet, with the rice-as-breakfast-cereal-with-sugar-as-the-"milk" thing).

Your first sentence is:

Igor_Kavinski wrote:
My friend went on the Kempner Rice Diet for just 15 days as soon as he was diagnosed with Diabetes.


I mean, you mentioned that your friend did "the Kempner Rice Diet"

The Kempner Rice Diet, as your own link shows, is a pound of sugar a day.

You never clarified or excepted anything.

Igor_Kavinski wrote:
At no point did I ask anyone to eat sugar. I thought you had read this thread and were objecting to the diet that he followed.


I read your link, which evidently you didn't do. :roll:

I also read the thread, and I don't recall you saying anything like "by the way, this is the modified Kempner Rice Diet in which I have introduced the following changes..."

Which is sort of big deal, because if you think advocating sugar is unethical, you probably shouldn't repeatedly advocate a diet which is 75% pure sugar.

I mean, a standard disclaimer after each invocation of that diet would be, I would think, an absolute necessity. :lol: :lol:


---

I mean, this is a special sort of insane: Saying you advocate nazism, but then saying "At no point did I ask anyone to be anti-semitic" is just next-level nuts. Sure, you never said the word jew, but if start your first nazi-advocating post with a wikipedia link about the Holocaust...?

How is anyone to know, after the innumerable "You should just do nazism, man" that this entire time, you meant "non-racist nazism."

Like, this is some sort of high-functioning mental illness, I guess?

Igor_Kavinski wrote:
The moment you mentioned "eating sugar", I was like, "Oh God. So that explains everything".


"RIGHT! Those death camps! OH GOD that explains why everyone doesn't like nazism, no look, that's not *my* nazism!"

lol wouldn't you pick a different brand then?

Igor_Kavinski wrote:
And please don't insult me by saying that no such friend exists.


no such friend exists.

Igor_Kavinski wrote:
I have no reason to lie.


Didn't say you lied. I said I didn't believe you.

Those aren't actually mutually contradictory...

Igor_Kavinski wrote:
And no, I can't name my friend's diet as the Igor_Pavinski diet because it was Kempner's diet that made me understand the role of excess fat storage in diabetes so maybe you could call it the "slightly less scary Kempner rice+fruit diet" rather than the "OMG are you crazy???? Kempner rice+sugar diet". I only subtracted sugar from his diet.


Sugar is like 75% of the diet, and you've basically said that sugar is evil.

"Slightly less scary nazism" is horrifically scary, despite how nazism wasn't 100% anti-semiticism/racism/incomprehensible-mass-murdering-evil either.

Maybe you can't just reclaim it for good? And, should you even be nuts enough to try, you ought to MAKE IT REALLY CLEAR WHAT YOUR SPECIFIC DIFFERENCES INSTEAD OF JUST CONSTANTLY INVOKING IT WITHOUT ANY QUALIFICATION?
 
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Re: Glucowise

Fri Aug 23, 2019 4:58 pm

Just incase the op doesn't understand this I'll toss it out, rice is almost pure sugar. Any form of carb in high volume will wreck a diabetic. Different forms of sugar will digest at different rates, but that doesn't actually mean anything if you average a high rate of intake of slow digesting sugars. Rice isn't slow either for the record.
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Re: Glucowise

Fri Aug 23, 2019 5:19 pm

Heiwashin wrote:
Just incase the op doesn't understand this I'll toss it out, rice is almost pure sugar. Any form of carb in high volume will wreck a diabetic. Different forms of sugar will digest at different rates, but that doesn't actually mean anything if you average a high rate of intake of slow digesting sugars. Rice isn't slow either for the record.


Disagree. Sugar has no fat/protein in it. It's also pure fuel for the bad bacteria in the mouth, leading to their proliferation. The toxins produced by these bacteria have been implicated in various medical conditions including diabetes and even cancer.

Glorious, I'm really sorry for the mix-up. I assumed that I had explained my friend's diet. I have a lot going on in my life so kinda hard to focus.
 
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Re: Glucowise

Fri Aug 23, 2019 5:39 pm

No joke man, rice is 80% carbs. And again just incase you're confused, carbs are the issue for diabetics. Table sugar is a specific type of carb, and although it's one if the fastest digesting since it requires no bio chemical processing, any form of carb will cause similar trouble with varying degrees of peak speed.

Just so I'm sure im getting it to you, 100 grams of sugar vs 120 grams of uncooked rice, pretty much the same level of shiny vision, irritated bladder, possible headache during or after the blood sugar peak, dry eyes, and possibly a mild tingling in my arms when I'm trying to sleep. At least under the conditions where I'm vulnerable to carb intake which isn't an issue right now.
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Re: Glucowise

Fri Aug 23, 2019 5:48 pm

Krogoth wrote:
In order to consume tons of fructose via fresh fruits/berries. You had to eat pounds of it


That's one of the primary objections for those who oppose the fructose witch-hunt. They point out that the diet used in these studies often includes an abnormally high percentage of calories from fructose. That always strikes me as a cop-out though because it requires a few additional assumptions on its own before it can cast doubt on the study. In general though I'm not aware of any good data on what amount of fructose should be considered harmful if indeed it is, so again we're back to square one. In this case, the most unfortunate thing about the scare tactics is they tend to detract from the big picture and make it even harder to do good research that figures out what's really going on here.

and deal with all of the roughage.


To "deal with" the roughage is probably a good thing in this case. :P The dietary fiber that goes missing in the fizzy drinks could help explain the differences found in that study I linked.
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Re: Glucowise

Fri Aug 23, 2019 5:57 pm

Igor_Kavinski wrote:
Heiwashin wrote:
Just incase the op doesn't understand this I'll toss it out, rice is almost pure sugar. Any form of carb in high volume will wreck a diabetic. Different forms of sugar will digest at different rates, but that doesn't actually mean anything if you average a high rate of intake of slow digesting sugars. Rice isn't slow either for the record.


Disagree. Sugar has no fat/protein in it. It's also pure fuel for the bad bacteria in the mouth, leading to their proliferation. The toxins produced by these bacteria have been implicated in various medical conditions including diabetes and even cancer.

Biochemistry doesn't care about your opinions, buddy. A carbohydrate is essentially a bunch of sugars linked together, and digestion breaks it down into those smaller sugars. This is what Heiwashin is talking about.
On second thought, let's not go to TechReport. Tis a silly place.
 
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Re: Glucowise

Fri Aug 23, 2019 6:27 pm

Yeah, pretty much. I will say in general, that trying to research this on the Internet is not easy. In fact, unless someone is willing to stick almost exclusively to journal articles and studies, then I'd say don't even try. Otherwise, they're just going to get sucked down some crazy rabbit hole and spend all their time fending off zealots like our friend here.
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Re: Glucowise

Fri Aug 23, 2019 8:18 pm

Heiwashin wrote:
Just incase the op doesn't understand this I'll toss it out, rice is almost pure sugar. Any form of carb in high volume will wreck a diabetic. Different forms of sugar will digest at different rates, but that doesn't actually mean anything if you average a high rate of intake of slow digesting sugars. Rice isn't slow either for the record.


THANK YOU!

The GI (Glycemic index) of White Rice is 60+ more around the 74 range. What is so hard to understand that ANY diet that revolves around Rice is awfully bad for !?
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Re: Glucowise

Fri Aug 23, 2019 10:53 pm

Redocbew wrote:
Krogoth wrote:
In order to consume tons of fructose via fresh fruits/berries. You had to eat pounds of it


That's one of the primary objections for those who oppose the fructose witch-hunt. They point out that the diet used in these studies often includes an abnormally high percentage of calories from fructose. That always strikes me as a cop-out though because it requires a few additional assumptions on its own before it can cast doubt on the study. In general though I'm not aware of any good data on what amount of fructose should be considered harmful if indeed it is, so again we're back to square one. In this case, the most unfortunate thing about the scare tactics is they tend to detract from the big picture and make it even harder to do good research that figures out what's really going on here.

and deal with all of the roughage.


To "deal with" the roughage is probably a good thing in this case. :P The dietary fiber that goes missing in the fizzy drinks could help explain the differences found in that study I linked.



I was referring to frequent trips to the porcelain throne from going nuts eating pounds of fruit/berries on a frequent basis. ;)
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Re: Glucowise

Fri Aug 23, 2019 11:52 pm

Yeah, that's what I figured. Funny thing is, when you study these things it's difficult for there not to be a lot of poop involved. Most of our gut microbes live in the large intestine, and the large intestine has the job of poop storage. You might think they'd live in the small intestine which does most of the active digestion and absorption of nutrients from our food. There are microbes which live there, but not nearly as many, and we don't really know much about them. At the moment at least it looks like all the really interesting stuff happens where the poop is. :lol:
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Re: Glucowise

Sat Aug 24, 2019 6:05 am

Redocbew wrote:
In general though I'm not aware of any good data on what amount of fructose should be considered harmful if indeed it is,


https://academic.oup.com/ajcn/article/88/5/1189/4649075

In conclusion, obesity and diabetes rates were low when total fructose intake was in the range of 25–40 g/d.


Wish fulfilled?

Heiwashin/superjawes/tanker27, did I say that rice has a low GI? But how you eat rice is the trick. If you eat it only with fruits with NO ADDITIONAL FAT and minimum salt (half a gram is fine), your body's insulin response will see drastic change. Keep doing this for 3 days straight and you will start approaching HYPOGLYCEMIA. This is what happened to my friend. His fasting glucose level started going below 70, at which point I told him to "eat more fruits, DAMMIT!!!!". Thankfully, he paid heed to my advice and his fasting glucose was in the 80-90 range for the rest of the diet.
 
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Re: Glucowise

Sat Aug 24, 2019 6:30 am

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3379616/

Fascinating. Thank you, Redocbew, for steering me in the right direction. The picture becomes quite clear now. The common thing between rice+fruit and rice+sugar is fructose. When taken in excess, fructose raises triglycerides and causes fat build-up around the organs (liver, pancreas and kidney being the most vital), leading to their malfunction. However, when fructose is consumed with a low fat / low salt diet, the reverse happens and fat is removed from around the organs, thus restoring their normal function. Fructose is particularly dangerous when consumed with plenty of salt as their combo raises blood pressure far higher than either fructose or salt alone. Blood pressure patients take note.
 
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Re: Glucowise

Sat Aug 24, 2019 7:52 am

Igor_Kavinski wrote:
Heiwashin/superjawes/tanker27, did I say that rice has a low GI? But how you eat rice is the trick. If you eat it only with fruits with NO ADDITIONAL FAT and minimum salt (half a gram is fine), your body's insulin response will see drastic change. Keep doing this for 3 days straight and you will start approaching HYPOGLYCEMIA.

Oh...my mistake. Clearly I don't understand how fruit, fruit juice, and table sugar lower the GI of white rice :roll:

Unless I see this nonsense get a Nobel prize, it sure looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck.
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Re: Glucowise

Sat Aug 24, 2019 8:23 am

superjawes wrote:
Oh...my mistake. Clearly I don't understand how fruit, fruit juice, and table sugar lower the GI of white rice :roll:


The GI of fruits, fruit juices, table sugar and rice remain unchanged. You see, fructose does not play well with dietary fat. When your diet becomes low fat, as in the rice+fruit/sugar diet, insulin resistance decreases. Glucose uptake by the cells skyrockets. Suddenly, only a fraction of the insulin that was needed in the diabetic state becomes more than enough. Excess insulin itself has repercussions. With these hurdles removed, the body starts its journey towards healing, provided we let it heal by sticking to this low fat/low salt diet. All of these changes don't happen within the span of a few hours. You need to give your body a minimum of 3 days to get its regenerative/healing engines going.
 
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Re: Glucowise

Sat Aug 24, 2019 12:15 pm

Igor_Kavinski wrote:
Wish fulfilled?


Not so much...

This meta-analysis is difficult to interpret, because it involves randomized and nonrandomized studies of differing designs, mixed populations (diabetic and nondiabetic, lean and obese), different control diets (including some sucrose-based diets that contained fructose), different study durations, and limited endpoints; it also represents an analysis by an industry-sponsored group of a highly selected list of studies.


The purpose of doing a meta-analysis is to compare similar findings. These are not similar findings, and there's not even much comparison going on. That's probably why it was published as an editorial. Anyway, this article isn't as definitive as maybe you thought it was:

However, it is probably misleading to conclude that this amount of fructose consumption is safe by examining only the effects of fructose on plasma triglycerides, weight, and HbA1c.


So, it's all really just a big null result. Null results are fine, but you've got to treat them as what they are.

Thank you, Redocbew, for steering me in the right direction.


I did not lead you here. :lol: This is an improvement from the conspiracy theories and moon water though.

Generalizability may be limited because most of the trials were <12 weeks and had relatively low MQS (<8). To confirm these findings, larger and longer fructose feeding trials assessing both possible glycemic benefit and adverse metabolic effects are required.


Translating into plain English this means "Garbage in, garbage out." Again, this is just a statistical analysis of the results of other studies. There's no new data here, and while that can be useful when we do have good data to work with in this case we don't.

It sounds to me like you need to go back to basics instead of jumping into the middle of things. From what I can tell your understanding of basic macronutrients(fats, carbs, proteins) needs a lot of work.
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Re: Glucowise

Sun Aug 25, 2019 5:53 am

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22832597

It is truly bewildering how many naturally occurring plant based edible compounds have a lowering effect on blood glucose. And yet pharmas had to go ahead and develop drugs with side effects. Kinda makes you wonder if they like doing that so they can treat you for the side effects after your main issue is somewhat resolved. And treating those will yield even more side effects and on and on it goes. It's a great time to be alive as a pharma executive.
 
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Re: Glucowise

Sun Aug 25, 2019 6:24 am

 
superjawes
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Re: Glucowise

Sun Aug 25, 2019 7:35 am

On second thought, let's not go to TechReport. Tis a silly place.
 
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Re: Glucowise

Sun Aug 25, 2019 8:30 am

superjawes wrote:


You never know. Could be therapeutic.
 
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Re: Glucowise

Sun Aug 25, 2019 9:11 am

Igor_Kavinski wrote:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22832597

It is truly bewildering how many naturally occurring plant based edible compounds have a lowering effect on blood glucose. And yet pharmas had to go ahead and develop drugs with side effects. Kinda makes you wonder if they like doing that so they can treat you for the side effects after your main issue is somewhat resolved. And treating those will yield even more side effects and on and on it goes. It's a great time to be alive as a pharma executive.


It's a pretty good time to be an internet conspiracy theorist also.

Instead of taking responsibility let's blame everything on some big, anonymous corporation. That way you can continue this fantasy of ingesting food and having it somehow lower your blood glucose levels, and it won't be your fault when everything falls apart. If that's what you think is going on, then you really are hopeless.
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Re: Glucowise

Sun Aug 25, 2019 12:55 pm

I propose we delete all the posts here, leave only the link to the 1-Hour of duck sounds, and then lock the thread.
 
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Re: Glucowise

Sun Aug 25, 2019 1:02 pm

That's an excellent idea.
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Re: Glucowise

Sun Aug 25, 2019 2:01 pm

It would certainly be more productive for society as a whole.
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Re: Glucowise

Mon Aug 26, 2019 3:06 am

Redocbew wrote:
...you can continue this fantasy of ingesting food and having it somehow lower your blood glucose levels...


Fantasy? Just because I cannot fund a study demonstrating this fact, does not make it untrue. Somehow lower blood glucose levels? I'm pretty sure that my explanation about the insulin resistance getting lower did not go over your head. So what is this about? I just looked at the fructose and fat content of different fruits. Every fruit that has a lot of fructose also has very little fat. The only fruit that has a copious amount of fat (Avocado), has little to no fructose. Isn't this nature trying to tell us something? Don't frickin' mix fructose with fat! I would really appreciate if you guys would think about this seriously rather than trying to derail this thread based on whatever preconceived notions you have about me as a forum member here.
 
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Re: Glucowise

Mon Aug 26, 2019 4:11 am

Redocbew wrote:
It's a pretty good time to be an internet conspiracy theorist also. Instead of taking responsibility let's blame everything on some big, anonymous corporation.


I wonder how many of you around here WORK for a pharma or own pharma stock or worse, OWN a pharma...

By the way, I will say good things about a pharma when they do good things. Pharmas are chock full of people like Martin Shkreli. The only reason he's in jail and the others are not is coz he was just stupid enough to be a bit too ambitious and wanting to get rich overnight rather than work hard by developing a new drug of questionable efficacy.
 
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Re: Glucowise

Mon Aug 26, 2019 5:59 am

Igor_Kavinski wrote:
Redocbew wrote:
It's a pretty good time to be an internet conspiracy theorist also. Instead of taking responsibility let's blame everything on some big, anonymous corporation.

I wonder how many of you around here WORK for a pharma or own pharma stock or worse, OWN a pharma...

Hoo boy, more absurd conspiracy theories. You realize you are not helping your case here? :roll:

I've never worked in pharma, nor do I own any pharma stock (other than what might be owned indirectly through my retirement plan).

I DID spend ~10 years working for the military-industrial complex (though I am out of that line of work now). Have fun spinning conspiracy theories about THAT! :lol:
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