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Igor_Kavinski
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Re: Glucowise

Mon Aug 26, 2019 6:32 am

just brew it! wrote:
Hoo boy, more absurd conspiracy theories. You realize you are not helping your case here? :roll:


That's me wondering out aloud about why the "fructose interacts badly with high fat diet" isn't being taken seriously. If only people would stick to the discussion going on rather than leaving unhelpful comments... (in general. not pointing at anyone in particular. No need to bring out the pitchforks and butcher knives!)
 
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Re: Glucowise

Mon Aug 26, 2019 7:46 am

Err... because it's already well-known that a high sugar, high fat diet is generally a bad idea?
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Re: Glucowise

Mon Aug 26, 2019 8:18 am

just brew it! wrote:
Err... because it's already well-known that a high sugar, high fat diet is generally a bad idea?


And I'm saying that fructose+(low fat/low salt) diet has regenerative/healing properties which no one can seem to accept.
 
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Re: Glucowise

Mon Aug 26, 2019 8:54 am

Igor_Kavinski wrote:
Fantasy? Just because I cannot fund a study demonstrating this fact, does not make it untrue.
...yes it does. To be fair, it is (theoretically) possible for your assertions to be proven true later, but only with strong evidence. Until then, we have to assume they are false.

Igor_Kavinski wrote:
I just looked at the fructose and fat content of different fruits. Every fruit that has a lot of fructose also has very little fat. The only fruit that has a copious amount of fat (Avocado), has little to no fructose. Isn't this nature trying to tell us something? Don't frickin' mix fructose with fat!
Or maybe most fruits don't need a lot of fat to fulfill their purpose. Also, humans largely evolved as scavengers, with digestive systems made to digest almost anything they came across. Plants didn't start growing according to human needs until agriculture, so you can't really use any food as an example of human dietary needs.* Heck, most fruits we consume have had the wild bred out of them for easier human consumption. Just look at the banana. And don't even get me started on wild grains versus their agricultural versions.

Igor_Kavinski wrote:
I would really appreciate if you guys would think about this seriously rather than trying to derail this thread based on whatever preconceived notions you have about me as a forum member here.
The problem is that we are thinking about this seriously. We just aren't seeing the evidence and aren't accepting the conclusion on faith. Perhaps you should think about this more seriously and put these ideas under a critical a critical lens.
On second thought, let's not go to TechReport. Tis a silly place.
 
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Re: Glucowise

Mon Aug 26, 2019 9:00 am

You're completely nuts:

1) Doctors will primarily prescribe diet & exercise for people on the precipice of type II. Two different people in the thread have attested to this. It's common knowledge, read literally anything about this, they *BEG* people to eat better/less.

2) Metformin is literally $4 for 60 pills of metformin, $10 for 180 pills, at Walmart: https://www.walmart.com/cp/$4-prescriptions/1078664

And there are a few basic diabetic medications too. Plenty of regional grocery stores and other chains (like Target) have similar programs. Coupons + memberships at various other pharmacies can even make it free.

In other words, no one is really making money off of metformin (which is the generic name...), because whether the pill is 500mg or 1000mg, these guys are all charging the same price.
 
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Re: Glucowise

Mon Aug 26, 2019 9:14 am

Igor_Kavinski wrote:
And I'm saying that fructose+(low fat/low salt) diet has regenerative/healing properties which no one can seem to accept.


If you are motivated to make -any- sort of lifestyle changes by warnings that you are about to become diabetic, -THAT- can be enough by itself.

Because, regardless of all else, weight alone is major risk factor: if you simply just eat less of whatever you were eating before and therefore become less overweight, bam, dramatic changes in potential outcomes.

It's really, really simple: If you were eating anything you wanted, whenever you wanted to, the discipline of virtually -any- diet subverts that: you're just eating less as well as likely eating less irregularly (which seems to have an impact too).

You can magnify that further by making changes in what you eat as well, but you are prancing around pretending that we're ignoring your "diet".

No, we're not: I told you (or someone, anyway) in your last thread about this that you are ignoring the completely unhidden variable of "now the subject actually has a diet."

Is the the specific diet the difference? Is the imposition of the general concept of dieting the difference? If both, to what relative degree?
 
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Re: Glucowise

Mon Aug 26, 2019 10:41 am

We definitely need to find a way to make ducks just as meme-worthy as cheese and potatoes.

Igor "not a duck" Kavinski deserves no less.
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Igor_Kavinski
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Re: Glucowise

Mon Aug 26, 2019 10:51 am

Good. Good. That's more like it. Definitely food for thought. However, I will still maintain the following until proven wrong with hard evidence:

1) Eating less will invoke the body's housecleaning mechanism AKA clearing out the accumulated cellular and tissue garbage which will lead to new cells being made. Caloric restriction IS regenerative. That's why most of the religions have fasting as a ritual. But question becomes, how much less does one eat and for how long? Eat lesser than you are comfortable with and you will be miserable with an exceeding likelihood to binge and negate whatever benefit you received from eating less. If you eat less for say, two months, is that going to keep your blood sugar under control for the foreseeable future? And while eating less, what should one eat? What combination of foods have the best chance of bringing your A1C down for good? Do you really want to spend your time researching all this while life continues all around you, oblivious to your predicament and hurting your chances of happiness in what limited time you may have? Metformin may be cheap in the USA but that's not the case everywhere in the world. Even if it were available for $4 everywhere, it would still be a significant burden for a LOT of low income individuals who are already challenged in trying to meet their various living expenses.

2) Fructose is your best friend and your worst enemy depending on how you consume it. Eating potato chips with a can of Coke? Damage. Eating them separately several hours apart? Possibly helpful, as Fructose actually helps the liver in processing fats. I read somewhere that Fructose opens the liver's floodgates to let the fat in and that helps the body avoid eating muscle during sleep. In the Netherlands, I've heard that it's a tradition to give honey to children before going to bed. That is one reason their average height is around 6 feet, because most of the development happens during sleep and when enough fat is available to burn, the body does not go crazy and panic in the middle of the sleep by releasing cortisol and burning muscle for fuel.

3) I will still encourage anyone with prediabetes to do the rice+fruit low fat/low salt diet. After three days, you will see your glucose readings going down. I say it with confidence because that's what happened to my friend. The best way to find out is to do it. As for diabetics, they can follow the diet under the doctor's supervision to avoid any life threatening adverse events. I think telling patients to eat better and exercise better is kind of a cop out. Only the most determined will be able to keep diabetes at bay that way. But with the rice+fruit diet, you KNOW you are eating healthy and it isn't that bad after a few days. You get used to it and it gives results without working your butt off in the gym. And especially if your levels are dangerously high and not responding well to anything, this is the only way to get your insulin sensitivity back on track as far as I know.
 
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Re: Glucowise

Mon Aug 26, 2019 11:01 am

Ok, so let's recap.

That's a duck.

NOT A DUCK!

It walks like a duck and talks like a duck. Observational studies conclude that's a duck.

NOT A DUCK! BIG PHARMA OWNS YOU.

What? Dude, definitely a duck.

NOT A DUCK! PHARMA CREATED DUCKS. ITS ALL PART OF THEIR PLAN.

You're insane.

NOT A DUCK!

Did I miss anything?
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Re: Glucowise

Mon Aug 26, 2019 11:54 am

Redocbew wrote:
Ok, so let's recap.

That's a duck.

NOT A DUCK!

It walks like a duck and talks like a duck. Observational studies conclude that's a duck.

NOT A DUCK! BIG PHARMA OWNS YOU.

What? Dude, definitely a duck.

NOT A DUCK! PHARMA CREATED DUCKS. ITS ALL PART OF THEIR PLAN.

You're insane.

NOT A DUCK!

Did I miss anything?


Yup that effectively sums it up! 6 pages of tin foil hat. :/
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Re: Glucowise

Mon Aug 26, 2019 12:30 pm

My favourite thing about blaming big pharma is the assumption that doctors and researchers beholden to different institutions, nations, and financiers are all tied together somehow despite active competition.
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Re: Glucowise

Mon Aug 26, 2019 1:13 pm

pikaporeon wrote:
My favourite thing about blaming big pharma is the assumption that doctors and researchers beholden to different institutions, nations, and financiers are all tied together somehow despite active competition.


Metformin has also been mass-produced since the 50s, and it was only introduced into the American market like 40 years later, so patents and the usual avenues of drug profitability had all long since expired.

They used a lot of clinical data from other countries, largely France, to do the filing. Because it was ancient, frequently prescribed for a sadly common ailment, and therefore was relatively well-understood.

https://www.accessdata.fda.gov/drugsatf ... 000rev.pdf

It was introduced as a potential alternative to Glibenclamide, which was also a generic at that point.

In other words, this has nothing to do with even the valid criticism that undergirds the "Big Pharma" label: this isn't some new drug (with patents) that is fast-tracked through approvals and then marketed to high heaven that costs hundreds and hundreds even with insurance.

No, it was a proven medication with decades of data from countries that were either singlepayer outright or even more non-profit than ours (which, believe it or not, is not-nearly-as "for profit" as often advertised) brought in to compete with an alternative that was single-digit dollars per bottle itself.

They're making a buck, but it's a buck. It's like producing aspirin, basically.

----


So, as you say:

1) Decades of data from different nations, doctors and institutions (a few years later the UK finished a MASSIVE multiple-decade diabetes II study, so well-known that it is cited in the literature by its acronym alone: UKPDS. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2014359/ https://www.dtu.ox.ac.uk/ukpds/ Result? Metformin for the win!)
2) It's not patented and is equivalent or cheaper than virtually any non-prescription pill.
3) It was introduced to provide an alternative (competition) to a different family of medication (also inexpensive) for diabetes.


But this is wasting my time, I should just say:

QUACK QUACK QUACK
 
Igor_Kavinski
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Re: Glucowise

Tue Aug 27, 2019 11:05 am

Glorious wrote:
QUACK QUACK QUACK


https://www.interhealthusa.com/our-brands/zychrome/

Yet more quack? If you think otherwise, it's available from Source Naturals at an affordable price. Or this: https://www.biotrust.com/products/biotr ... sm-booster

Heiwashin wrote:
From what I remember the main thing both of my drugs did was shut down the livers sugar release which is quite substantial and happens even after eating ironically. Without the medicine I occasionally awaken to slightly elevated sugar from the sugar release in the overnight fast.


Have you been tested for fatty liver?
 
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Re: Glucowise

Tue Aug 27, 2019 11:29 am

Igor_Kavinski wrote:
Have you been tested for fatty liver?

Fois gras is delicious.
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pikaporeon
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Re: Glucowise

Tue Aug 27, 2019 11:41 am

Igor_Kavinski wrote:
Glorious wrote:
QUACK QUACK QUACK


https://www.interhealthusa.com/our-brands/zychrome/

Yet more quack? If you think otherwise, it's available from Source Naturals at an affordable price. Or this: https://www.biotrust.com/products/biotr ... sm-booster

Heiwashin wrote:
From what I remember the main thing both of my drugs did was shut down the livers sugar release which is quite substantial and happens even after eating ironically. Without the medicine I occasionally awaken to slightly elevated sugar from the sugar release in the overnight fast.


Have you been tested for fatty liver?

Yes.

What does that have to do with metformin.
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Glorious
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Re: Glucowise

Tue Aug 27, 2019 12:45 pm

Igor_Kavinski wrote:
Yet more quack?


I posted paragraph after paragraph that debunked your nonsense before that, but as I said, why even bother?

All you're going to read is "QUACK QUACK QUACK"

And then, literally, that's exactly what happened. :roll:
 
Redocbew
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Re: Glucowise

Tue Aug 27, 2019 1:08 pm

Why bother, indeed.

One quack is not a duck. Two quacks is still not a duck. Three quacks and we're making fois gras, but still the existence of the duck is denied. Taking it to four ain't gonna do nobody no good.
Do not meddle in the affairs of archers, for they are subtle and you won't hear them coming.
 
DrDominodog51
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Re: Glucowise

Tue Aug 27, 2019 4:41 pm

Dammit. Y'all just made me want pâté, and that's definitely not part of my diet. :lol:

I've completely forgotten what the OP was about, but this thread has been entertaining to say the least.
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just brew it!
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Re: Glucowise

Tue Aug 27, 2019 10:26 pm

DrDominodog51 wrote:
Dammit. Y'all just made me want pâté, and that's definitely not part of my diet. :lol:

Liverwurst was a semi-regular part of my diet until a few years ago when I became susceptible to attacks of gout. I still miss it, but pain avoidance is a powerful motivator to cut back on the common gout triggers. I miss sardines and beef jerky too.
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Igor_Kavinski
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Re: Glucowise

Wed Aug 28, 2019 3:36 am

pikaporeon wrote:
Igor_Kavinski wrote:

Have you been tested for fatty liver?

Yes.

What does that have to do with metformin.


Metformin will not help much with fatty liver and since diabetes is caused by fatty liver, continuing to ignore this problem and just taking Metformin might result in complications later in life, like reduced liver function or even liver cancer. To be clear, Metformin leads to a slight improvement in fatty liver but nowhere close to Vitamin E 400 IU. But even that does not result in reversal of fatty liver and you also expose yourself to risk of prostate cancer. For complete reversal of fatty liver, you need the rice diet (or invent your own low fat/low salt diet. Doesn't matter. As long as fat intake is drastically reduced, it will force the body to take out the fat already IN the body).
 
Igor_Kavinski
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Re: Glucowise

Wed Aug 28, 2019 3:48 am

Glorious wrote:
Igor_Kavinski wrote:
Yet more quack?


I posted paragraph after paragraph that debunked your nonsense before that, but as I said, why even bother?

All you're going to read is "QUACK QUACK QUACK"

And then, literally, that's exactly what happened. :roll:


I read everything you wrote. But when your stance is "There's nothing wrong with Metformin and there's plenty of scientific data to back that up!", completely opposite to what I propose "Attack the core issue. Remove fat from the body by following a strict diet for 15 days minimum", how can we ever see eye to eye on this issue? It's like two shopkeepers shouting their lungs out in the village market to sell their products. Except, you don't have anything to gain from the sale of Metformin and I don't have anything to gain from someone never having to need Metformin again. But we are both trying to save people, in our own ways based on what we know and what we believe. That's the only common factor.
 
tanker27
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Re: Glucowise

Wed Aug 28, 2019 6:26 am

Igor_Kavinski beliefs > Science and modern medicine

Well that settles that. We all just need to follow Igor_Kavinski and we'll live for an eternity.

:roll:
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superjawes
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Re: Glucowise

Wed Aug 28, 2019 8:42 am

I just want to say that I am very amused that my quacking response caught on. One of my proudest achievements as a gerbil :lol:
On second thought, let's not go to TechReport. Tis a silly place.
 
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Re: Glucowise

Wed Aug 28, 2019 8:42 am

Igor_Kavinski wrote:
But when your stance is "There's nothing wrong with Metformin and there's plenty of scientific data to back that up!", completely opposite to what I propose


You just proposed, in your immediately previous back-to-back post, that Metformin could cause liver cancer.

Igor_Kavinski wrote:
taking Metformin might result in complications later in life, like reduced liver function or even liver cancer.


Your argument wasn't "let's talk about the core issue", you argument was ignorant make-believe: Metformin is actually highly associated with a decrease in the risk of liver cancer.

Igor_Kavinski wrote:
"Attack the core issue. Remove fat from the body by following a strict diet for 15 days minimum", how can we ever see eye to eye on this issue?


We can't, because you're not even talking about the "core issue", you're just inventing lies about Metformin.

Igor_Kavinski wrote:
It's like two shopkeepers shouting their lungs out in the village market to sell their products.


I'm not selling anything, I've told you repeatedly that the preferential treatment for incipient type II diabetes isn't any sort of pill at all, but rather diet & lifestyle changes. I'm simply counteracting your lies: you aren't just saying diet is better, no, you are saying there is some evil medical conspiracy.

There isn't. The medical establishment recommends dietary changes, they've been screaming about it for decades. But it isn't some fad diet, some "15 day and done" magical panacea, but rather a necessary commitment that a patient has to accept reality and realize their body can't handle how they've been treating it.

There's eminent reason to believe that "purge" style dieting results in "binge-purge" cycling, which confounds the necessary changes and might even have stand-alone detrimental health effects.

There's no "one weird trick", OK? And when you were previously advocating "Kempner's one weird trick" without bothering to tell anyone that you fundamentally reworked the entire diet (which is literally 75%-80% granulated sugar, literally a pound a day, this is straight from the link *YOU* cited), that's just ridiculous.

You have no credibility. You didn't even read the link you told everyone else to read because you claimed it had all the answers.

IT LITERALLY DOESN'T MATTER WHAT YOU ARE SAYING, WHEN THE FORMS AND PATTERNS OF HOW YOU SAY IT ARE NOT ONLY CONTRADICTIONS, LIES, BUT THE DEMAND THAT WE READ YOUR *MIND* AND DISCERN WHAT YOU'RE THINKING RATHER THAN WHAT YOU FACTUALLY SAID.

That is why you are being ridiculed with quacking, because that's what you are doing: You admitted your words and thought process are unreliable and non-indicative of humanly-discernable reasoning: It's just nonsense, empty sounds that have a secret meaning known only to you, not to the people who supposedly share your language.

To the extent that you ever say anything right, it's just pareidolia in your white noise of words.
 
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Re: Glucowise

Wed Aug 28, 2019 8:55 am

Let's be clear: When you said "The Kempner Rice Diet" it wasn't the Kempner Rice Diet at all. In two different threads we went for pages discussing it, with people telling you, over and over again, the Kempner Rice Diet was insane.

I had to scream "A POUND OF SUGAR A DAY" at you several times, with different measurements and real-world explications, before you first experienced even the dim light of the dawning realization that "hey wait, maybe the words I'm using and the sites I'm citing, have no resemblance to what I actually mean."

And it was dim light indeed, because suddenly this utterly ridiculous circumstance was *OUR* fault, *WE* were mistaken in not magically understanding that you when literally cite something and talk about it repeatedly, that no, you meant something else. :evil:

It's like we went for dozens of posts discussing the "Paleo" diet, only to find out that actually it sounds like you are recommending a vegan diet "but sometimes I have fish". Not only is your actual position still absurd, wrong and extremely bizarre, but it's fundamentally not what you originally said.

In other words, when you talk now of the "rice diet" with no mention of Kempner, I mean, is this "rice" what *WE* understand as "rice?"

Five pages from now, are we going to find out that actually it's some sort of plantain and the story suddenly is "Oh GOD you guys thought I meant something in the Oryza genus? No, haha, that's absurd, why would you think that? That's bad, haha you are soooo mistaken."

DOCTORS QUAcK1 ArE quack! BUTCHETS QuACK! :roll:
 
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Re: Glucowise

Wed Aug 28, 2019 8:58 am

Glorious wrote:
You just proposed, in your immediately previous back-to-back post, that Metformin could cause liver cancer.

Igor_Kavinski wrote:
taking Metformin might result in complications later in life, like reduced liver function or even liver cancer.




No. Metformin itself won't cause that. Fatty liver will do that. But taking ONLY Metformin may not be enough to save the fatty liver from progressing to liver cancer.
 
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Re: Glucowise

Wed Aug 28, 2019 9:01 am

Glorious wrote:
Five pages from now, are we going to find out that actually it's some sort of plantain and the story suddenly is "Oh GOD you guys thought I meant something in the Oryza genus? No, haha, that's absurd, why would you think that? That's bad, haha you are soooo mistaken."

DOCTORS QUAcK1 ArE quack! BUTCHETS QuACK! :roll:


I made a mistake and admitted it. You don't forgive, do you? And I never blamed anyone for the misunderstanding. It was my mistake. I should have been more clear. That doesn't mean that you start lambasting me for my past mistakes and refuse to believe anything I say.
 
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Re: Glucowise

Wed Aug 28, 2019 9:02 am

HISS! HONK HONK HONK

~70% of the thread.....
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Re: Glucowise

Wed Aug 28, 2019 9:09 am

Igor_Pavinski wrote:
No. Metformin itself won't cause that. Fatty liver will do that. But taking ONLY Metformin may not be enough to save the fatty liver from progressing to liver cancer.


That is not what you said.

You plainly stated that taking Metformin could cause liver cancer.

In reality, science suggests the exact opposite.

Science has dozens of studies, some of which are 30-40 decades EDIT: years long with tens of thousands of subjects. We're literally taking about a hundred thousand subjects or more. There's heterogeneity, sure, there always is, but it is a recurrent and *strong* association.

This is *not* the "News at 10" misleading-and-straight-from-PR "science" about a 10-month, 18-subject study with 20% dropout, OK?

What do you have, again? Words that don't even mean what they say?

----

This kind of nonsense, where you didn't mean what you blatantly said, is why you are QUACK QUACK QUACK.

It sounds like english, has syntax like english, but semantically? It's duck noise.

"If a lionDUCK could speak, we could not understand him" -Wittgen---QUACK!---
Last edited by Glorious on Wed Aug 28, 2019 9:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Re: Glucowise

Wed Aug 28, 2019 9:14 am

Igor_Pavinski wrote:
I made a mistake and admitted it. You don't forgive, do you? And I never blamed anyone for the misunderstanding. It was my mistake. I should have been more clear. That doesn't mean that you start lambasting me for my past mistakes and refuse to believe anything I say.


I don't think you understand.

Do ducks lie? Does it matter?

How can I "believe" what I clearly do not understand?

--

Forget "fault", forget "forgiveness", if "what we have here is a failure to communicate", which clearly we do, how can I "believe" what you said when I simply do not know what you actually meant by it?

If, for instance, you said a bunch of stuff in Russian and asked if I believed it, what could any answer possibly mean?

I'd be quacking, you'd quacking.

QUACK QUACK QUACK.
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