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Redocbew
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Re: Glucowise

Mon Aug 19, 2019 2:31 pm

Igor_Kavinski wrote:
Is it fair to curtail my freedom of expression just to protect those who would get into trouble anyway just because they are inherently inclined to make bad decisions?


You're still here, and you're still talking about it, aren't you? I have no power to make you disappear, and honestly even though I think you're annoying I wouldn't take action even if I could.

Aside from that, freedom of expression doesn't protect you from gross negligence. Maybe you're not willfully ignoring current research, and all we're seeing here is another case of Dunning-Kruger in action. Either way, you've got everything all tangled and tied up and you seem much more interested in promoting your own ideas here whether or not they reflect reality.
Last edited by Redocbew on Mon Aug 19, 2019 2:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Glucowise

Mon Aug 19, 2019 2:32 pm

Igor_Kavinski wrote:
Glorious wrote:
...


I'm sorry but not gonna get into an argument with you. You sound like a practicing lawyer and you are accustomed to burying your opposition with mountains upon mountains of arguments.


Hahaha, oh man, that's rich. So, essentially, you're saying, "so, umm, yeah, I'm not going to argue with you if you back up your arguments with any sort of logic, science, or statistics. PS, big words offend me."

Hell, carry on, I say.
 
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Re: Glucowise

Mon Aug 19, 2019 2:37 pm

Igor_Kavinski wrote:
I'm sorry but not gonna get into an argument with you. You sound like a practicing lawyer and you are accustomed to burying your opposition with mountains upon mountains of arguments.


Oh, yeah, you totally understand the risks. :roll:

That's why you're deliberately ignoring someone explicitly because they did a too good of a job of informing you about the opposing (which happens to be the mainstream, scientific, and even common sense understanding!) viewpoint.



Dude, if I sound like a lawyer it's because our legal system is literally predicated upon the idea that the best road to truth is to have two different sides make the best possible case they can, fully evaluate both positions, and then render a decision.

Anyway, I'm not a lawyer at all, not even remotely close, but gee: If one guy has a whole list of reasons why something is a bad idea and the opposing guy's only response is "that list is too long with too many reasons, so I'm just not even going to bother responding, let alone listening."

What does that tell you? That the second guy is onto something? :o
 
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Re: Glucowise

Mon Aug 19, 2019 2:53 pm

The funny thing is, I've seen a lot of "mad scientist" threads from people on various boards over the years, and I always have mixed feelings about knocking them over. There is something to be said for following curiosity even when it goes against current scientific understanding. However, there are limits. You can't just flip the table, proclaim everything and everyone else is wrong, and that you alone have somehow been chosen to receive a new understanding without explaining anything about it. That's not how you go about fact-finding. It's how you start a religion.
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Re: Glucowise

Mon Aug 19, 2019 2:57 pm

Redocbew wrote:
You can't just flip the table, proclaim everything and everyone else is wrong, and that you alone have somehow been chosen to receive a new understanding without explaining anything about it. That's not how you go about fact-finding. It's how you start a religion.

No, that's how you start Theranos.
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Re: Glucowise

Mon Aug 19, 2019 2:58 pm

Bah. Semantics. :P
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Re: Glucowise

Mon Aug 19, 2019 3:04 pm

Igor_Pavinski wrote:
Shouldn't we let nature take its course and let it eliminate such people through their own bad decision of following hearsay? Or do we protect them and let them increase in numbers, thereby altering the natural order of things which might later come back to bite us in some way?


This isn't "such people"

This is you.

I don't mean rhetorically, as in, what if you "switched shoes".

No.

These are *YOUR* shoes. This is *YOU*, -RIGHT NOW-


-YOU- are pursuing a bad decision. You (evidently) have diabetes and have chosen to bark at the moon rather than actually treat it.

Thus, when nature takes its inevitable course, YOU are one that's going to be left to die when you decide to treat that weird lesion on your foot (which you didn't notice for weeks because you can't fricking feel your feet anymore) with some weird Micronesian-approved anti-cancer salve you randomly found on the internet.

"Why would *we* ampute your gangrenous foot? You clearly self-operated with home dentistry kit from Estonia, here's a pair of Guyanese boltcutters, there's the garage you just parked in, have at it! I mean, we don't know what we're doing, you do. We're just trying to kill you or whatever. Here's site on the darknet where you can get a pint of ether from what's ostensibly Shenzhen. You know, for the pain, should your eroded nerves even register it."
 
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Re: Glucowise

Tue Aug 20, 2019 2:29 am

:o

Anyway, here's something from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ray_Kurzweil:

Kurzweil admits that he cared little for his health until age 35, when he was found to suffer from a glucose intolerance, an early form of type II diabetes (a major risk factor for heart disease). Kurzweil then found a doctor (Terry Grossman, M.D.) who shares his somewhat unconventional beliefs to develop an extreme regimen involving hundreds of pills, chemical intravenous treatments, red wine, and various other methods to attempt to live longer. Kurzweil was ingesting "250 supplements, eight to 10 glasses of alkaline water and 10 cups of green tea" every day and drinking several glasses of red wine a week in an effort to "reprogram" his biochemistry.[48] By 2008, he had reduced the number of supplement pills to 150.[30] By 2015 Kurzweil further reduced his daily pill regimen down to 100 pills.[49]

Kurzweil has made a number of bold claims for his health regimen. In his book The Singularity Is Near, he claimed that he brought his cholesterol level down from the high 200s to 130, raised his HDL (high-density lipoprotein) from below 30 to 55, and lowered his homocysteine from an unhealthy 11 to a much safer 6.2. He also claimed that his C-reactive protein "and all of my other indexes (for heart disease, diabetes, and other conditions) are at ideal levels." He further claimed that his health regimen, including dramatically reducing his fat intake, successfully "reversed" his type 2 diabetes. (The Singularity Is Near, p. 211)


So a futurist can claim to reverse his diabetes but if I post something to help diabetics understand that they can do better, I'm a crackpot endangering the lives of others? Even non-diabetics need to worry about their sugar levels because this is what destroys us gradually from the inside out. Normal HbA1C is supposed to be less than 5.6 but that still means that around 4% to 5% of our RBCs got glycated. There isn't a test to determine exactly how many cells in our body got glycated over time. No one is trying to understand this concern, instead just ganging up on me for spewing forth unscientific crap. What happened to the discussion of ideas and giving birth to new possibilities?

Instead of blaming me for endangering others, what about endangering ourselves by believing everything the doctors say and do, even though their knowledge is not absolute and new research is revealing groundbreaking facts all the time?

And here's more hope for diabetics: https://www.wellandgood.com/good-advice ... -benefits/
 
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Re: Glucowise

Tue Aug 20, 2019 4:32 am

Igor_Kavinski wrote:
So a futurist can claim to reverse his diabetes but if I post something to help diabetics understand that they can do better, I'm a crackpot endangering the lives of others?


Yes. Call that dude whatever you want, but the fact that he resorted to carpet bombing his system instead of figuring out what was wrong with him doesn't prove anything. Pointing towards an example like that does not invalidate every other result you don't care to acknowledge. By insisting that it does you are not participating in any kind of meaningful discussion. You're just sticking your head in the sand and pretending the world doesn't exist.

Glycation happens much more readily with fructose than glucose, so again you've got things mixed up here. Go back to wikipedia and you'll find plenty of studies linked from their page on glycation. Clearly, your claim that "nobody is trying to understand this" is not true.

Igor_Kavinski wrote:
And here's more hope for diabetics: https://www.wellandgood.com/good-advice ... -benefits/


You really have a weakness for gimmicks and gadgets, don't you? Yes we know the polyphenols in olive oil have plenty of health benefits, but to zero in on one particular polyphenol and exclude all the others is premature at best. One reason the Mediterranean diet mentioned in that page you linked may be so successful is exactly because it often avoids extracts and synthetics like that.
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Re: Glucowise

Tue Aug 20, 2019 5:16 am

Redocbew wrote:
Glycation happens much more readily with fructose than glucose


That is easily avoidable by sticking to a diet low in fructose.

Redocbew wrote:
One reason the Mediterranean diet mentioned in that page you linked may be so successful is exactly because it often avoids extracts and synthetics like that.


Olive leaf tea has the same benefits, so no need to take an extract.
 
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Re: Glucowise

Tue Aug 20, 2019 5:42 am

The cool thing about peer reviewed research is you can go read it
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Re: Glucowise

Tue Aug 20, 2019 6:24 am

>.> I am starting to think that Igor_Kavinski is that guy who described himself as meta-human and wanted to chemically castrate himself......now what was his name........
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Re: Glucowise

Tue Aug 20, 2019 6:39 am

tanker27 wrote:
>.> I am starting to think that Igor_Kavinski is that guy who described himself as meta-human and wanted to chemically castrate himself......now what was his name........

Cybert. And IIRC it wasn't chemical, and wasn't just "wanted to"! :o

Anyhow, Kurzweil is (or at least was back in the day...) an engineering genius. These days he comes off as a bit of a loon.

Another engineering/technology genius - Steve Jobs - thought he knew better than the doctors how to treat cancer. We know where that got him.
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Re: Glucowise

Tue Aug 20, 2019 7:15 am

Certain types of people like clinging on to the fad information and the idea that some one guy knows a secret that the other entire scientific community is too unchanging to accept. I listen to interviews of celebrities and even they, who can afford the best legitimate health Care, fall for doctors that write stupid books simplifying solving all the problems in their life to eating grapes or some dumb thing.

The best you can do is say,"that's stupid" in passing and hope that some part of them picks it up from there eventually.
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Re: Glucowise

Tue Aug 20, 2019 7:26 am

just brew it! wrote:
Another engineering/technology genius - Steve Jobs - thought he knew better than the doctors how to treat cancer. We know where that got him.


To be fair, he had the worst cancer of them all. The survival rates are in the single digits and mostly they add only less than a handful of years after diagnosis and some sort of procedure.
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Re: Glucowise

Tue Aug 20, 2019 7:55 am

...and Kurzweil seems to have convinced himself that he can cheat Death. I suppose grasping at far-fetched "solutions" is somewhat to be expected when facing daunting odds.

Thing is (and getting back on topic), we KNOW how to effectively manage diabetes.
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Re: Glucowise

Tue Aug 20, 2019 8:51 am

Igor_Kavinski wrote:
So a futurist can claim to reverse his diabetes but if I post something to help diabetics understand that they can do better, I'm a crackpot endangering the lives of others?


I don't understand the dichotomy.

First off, if any random "futurist" came into here and argued the same schtick you are, he'd undoubtedly get the same reception. With me, he'd certainly get a worse one: (MODERN "futurism" [also {and preferably for the lack of anything better and the larger acceptance of something signifying much worse} known as "futures"], the singularity-accelerationist stuff, not the original-now-defunct futurism which was basically proto-fascism---these guys really, really need to choose a different name...) Arguing that that "science" is driving human achievement to increasingly unfathomable heights is gibberish when you advocating a method that's blatantly anti-scientific and therefore a bunch of suggestions that are obviously pseudo-science at best.

Second off, I don't have any idea what Kurzweil is talking about. I don't trust your rendition of his account, and he's not here so I'm not particularly interested in finding out either. Could he be onto something, sure, whatever, maybe. Is what you have said here, "onto somehthing"---no. I've actually seen those claims straight, and I (and others) have addressed them.

Third off, stipulating that Kurzweil is genius/remarkable/authoritative, so what? Tesla wasn't a slouch either, and he still went completely nuts. Linus Pauling won two Nobel prizes, both unshared, Chemistry and Peace. He was about as remarkable as they come. He still succumbed to medical quackery despite otherwise retaining the command of his faculties. You might note he never won a Nobel for medicine, nor was he any sort of physician. The best programmer in the universe doesn't necessarily know how to repair a car, or really even how they work, etc...

Igor_Kavinski wrote:
Even non-diabetics need to worry about their sugar levels because this is what destroys us gradually from the inside out.


Then don't buy some device that supposedly measures it in a back alley, out of the pocket of trenchcoat from an unknown guy WHO EVEN SAYS "yeah like maybe it sort of works?"

duh?

Igor_Kavinski wrote:
No one is trying to understand this concern, instead just ganging up on me for spewing forth unscientific crap. What happened to the discussion of ideas and giving birth to new possibilities?


The concern doesn't equate to "this particular solution is valid."

Which is exactly what you are doing: you want to fly, and this guy is selling a carpet that "might" be magical.

Is flying possible? In a way, but yeah, you have to go to the headache of planes/helicopters/balloons blah-blah.

Yeah, a flying carpet would be "simpler".

But when you are even asking "hey is this carpet a scam" /facepalm

Igor_Pavinski wrote:
Instead of blaming me for endangering others, what about endangering ourselves by believing everything the doctors say and do, even though their knowledge is not absolute and new research is revealing groundbreaking facts all the time?


Yeah, exactly: Even when it's highly-regulated, closely taught to competent people for like a decade and deliberative philosophically purpose-BUILT to deal with thorny epistemological issues, YEAH THEY STILL GET IT WRONG.

The regulators are toothless and incompetent: Theranos. 'nuff said.

Doctors can be practitioners following obsolete understandings/methods, money-hungry, lazy etc... That's just human nature.

There is still a huge reproducibility crisis, studies have innumerable fundamental statistical errors or, even worse, embarrassing and systemically re-occurring artifacts like "excel canards"--prevalent and basic misapprehensions on how to use spreadsheets cause the same pattern of errors, over and over and over.

In my lifetime, somehow people thought that peptic ulcers weren't caused by H Pylori, but rather "stress"--that's what my father was even told. Researchers had to literally infect themselves to help convince parts of the medical community otherwise. Unlike Pauling, yeah, they got a Nobel for Medicine...


WHY? Because the community is actually trying, and despite actually trying, there are still disasters and problems.

WHAT DO YOU THINK HAPPENS WHEN NO ONE IS TRYING, NO ONE IS LOOKING, AND THERE AREN'T EVEN ANY STUDIES THAT A COMMON MISUSE OF EXCEL CAN CORRUPT?

Success? :o

tanker27 wrote:
To be fair, he had the worst cancer of them all. The survival rates are in the single digits and mostly they add only less than a handful of years after diagnosis and some sort of procedure.


This is a common misconception: While generic pancreatic cancer is indeed one of the worse for survival statistics, Steve Jobs actually had islet cell cancer, which is a rare form of it. It's nowhere near as lethal, and is actually very treatable. Many times the tumors are even benign.

His diet didn't have anything to do with his longevity. Steve Jobs famously drove a car without a license plate, and all the "refuse intervention" stuff is mere rumor, but as he clearly didn't refuse regular medical care later on, do we really know that he was -exclusively- pursuing his diet earlier? Did he actually say that, or did people just infer it?

At any rate, assuming he didn't follow medical evidence, his chosen path didn't help him, and could only have hurt him.
 
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Re: Glucowise

Tue Aug 20, 2019 8:55 am

Igor_Kavinski wrote:
And here's more hope for diabetics: https://www.wellandgood.com/good-advice/

Astrology and throat chakra stones: looks like a reliable site for health advice to me.
 
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Re: Glucowise

Tue Aug 20, 2019 9:58 am

Yan wrote:
Igor_Kavinski wrote:
And here's more hope for diabetics: https://www.wellandgood.com/good-advice/

Astrology and throat chakra stones: looks like a reliable site for health advice to me.

Yeah, I'm SOOOO inclined to trust a site that runs headlines like "THIS MONTH’S FULL MOON IS ALL ABOUT FOLLOWING YOUR HEART - HERE’S EXACTLY WHAT THAT MEANS FOR YOUR SIGN" and "MAKE YOUR OWN FULL MOON WATER IN 5 STEPS TO CLEANSE AND EMPOWER YOURSELF FOR THE MONTH AHEAD" for diabetes advice. :roll:

@Igor - As I said once already, you REALLY need to get your BS detector checked. The calibration is WAAAAAY off.
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Re: Glucowise

Tue Aug 20, 2019 10:00 am

I'll stick with Wilford Brimley.
What we have today is way too much pluribus and not enough unum.
 
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Re: Glucowise

Tue Aug 20, 2019 10:51 am

Captain Ned wrote:
I'll stick with Wilford Brimley.


+1 for the Beetus
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Re: Glucowise

Tue Aug 20, 2019 11:57 am

Igor_Kavinski wrote:
Redocbew wrote:
Glycation happens much more readily with fructose than glucose


That is easily avoidable by sticking to a diet low in fructose.


If you want to avoid refined sugars there's nothing wrong with that. Just don't expect it to be your own personal fountain of youth.

Igor_Kavinski wrote:
Olive leaf tea has the same benefits, so no need to take an extract.


Whether or not that's true the point was that the olive leaves almost certainly do not have the same properties as the olive oil. I'm sure you think the oil is evil because it contains fats, but guess what? The leaves do also!
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Re: Glucowise

Tue Aug 20, 2019 2:50 pm

Redocbew wrote:
Whether or not that's true the point was that the olive leaves almost certainly do not have the same properties as the olive oil. I'm sure you think the oil is evil because it contains fats, but guess what? The leaves do also!


Olive oil is not evil. In fact, most people who get at least 20g of olive oil a day in their diet never develop diabetes. But once hyperglycemia sets in due to excess fat storage, olive oil will not help much. The leaves, however, have different chemicals/nutrients that will gradually make the body more insulin sensitive. Take one cup of olive leaf tea a day. Take 1g of black seed powder twice a day. Keep taking them until an improvement is seen. It could take many, many months. But then, it took years to develop diabetes. So any improvement over a period of months following this regimen is a relative bargain. But do your research for your own safety's sake. Know what you are getting into. Might not work for everyone due to allergies and/or specific genes. The only way to find out is to take the plunge. Or stay in the comfy death spiral of losing your insulin sensitivity until not even insulin works anymore. At that point, faced with certain amputations/death etc., you may want to consider the rice diet to save your life.
 
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Re: Glucowise

Tue Aug 20, 2019 3:50 pm

Igor_Kavinski wrote:
Or stay in the comfy death spiral of losing your insulin sensitivity until not even insulin works anymore. At that point, faced with certain amputations/death etc., you may want to consider the rice diet to save your life.

So in your opinion the standard medical treatment for Type 2 diabetes is complete fallacy, will lead to the usual gruesome complications of diabetes, and your rice diet and other such patent medicine nostrums are the only way to avoid such a future?

Are Sir Bedevere's scales part of your diagnostic regimen?
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Re: Glucowise

Tue Aug 20, 2019 4:00 pm

Igor_Kavinski wrote:
rabble rabble rabble


Ok, dude, I want to see you provide a source to back this up that isn't ridiculous. No astrology, no moon water, no "futurists". No blanket statements about how everyone is different and there's no common ground between us(perhaps the ugliest idea so far), and no fluff about allergies or genetics with no support to it. I'm not on your case because you simply have it wrong(even though you do). If you're so intent on "helping", then you should be able to provide some answers which exist outside of the loony bin, no?
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Re: Glucowise

Tue Aug 20, 2019 6:12 pm

just brew it! wrote:
"MAKE YOUR OWN FULL MOON WATER IN 5 STEPS TO CLEANSE AND EMPOWER YOURSELF FOR THE MONTH AHEAD"

Wow, how could I have missed that. That's literally loony. :o
 
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Re: Glucowise

Wed Aug 21, 2019 6:24 am

Redocbew wrote:
Ok, dude, I want to see you provide a source to back this up that isn't ridiculous.


https://nutritionfacts.org/2017/08/10/r ... with-diet/

Please read this article and the linked articles within it, thoroughly to get a better understanding of diabetes. I hope you won't object to an article written by an M.D.
 
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Re: Glucowise

Wed Aug 21, 2019 7:27 am

Igor_Kavinski wrote:
Redocbew wrote:
Ok, dude, I want to see you provide a source to back this up that isn't ridiculous.


https://nutritionfacts.org/2017/08/10/r ... with-diet/

Please read this article and the linked articles within it, thoroughly to get a better understanding of diabetes. I hope you won't object to an article written by an M.D.

No double-blind trial, no proof. I don't see any references to double-blind trials.
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Re: Glucowise

Wed Aug 21, 2019 7:30 am

Captain Ned wrote:
No double-blind trial, no proof. I don't see any references to double-blind trials.


Question is, who is gonna fund such a trial? The big pharmas who stand to lose a lot of business in case the trial is successful?
 
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Re: Glucowise

Wed Aug 21, 2019 8:08 am

At this point I am thoroughly convinced that Igor_Kavinski is trolling.
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