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Igor_Kavinski
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My plant based Keto diet experience

Sun Oct 20, 2019 10:48 am

A few weeks ago, I got hold of the Freestyle Libre glucose monitor. Cool device. Readings were consistent depending on how long ago I had eaten or whether I was fasting. With five days left in the sensor, I decided to find out what kind of effect Keto diet would have on my blood sugar. I settled on doing a completely plant based Keto diet as this would minimize the waste products produced in my body as I am not exactly the picture of perfect health. So I ate my last hearty carb meal the night before Keto Day 1 and went to sleep. Next day, I had tea with Xylitol/Stevia and a little Rainbow Milk for breakfast. At lunch, it was time to munch on the blended paste of a large avocado and stored the rest in the fridge. 3 or 4 hours later, finished the rest. So far so good. Didn't feel anything out of the ordinary. Dinner was Fattoush salad (without bread) with garlic sauce and tahina sauce. Blood sugar readings were a bit lower than usual but nothing to be concerned about. On Day 2, fasting glucose was in the 70s. Tea for breakfast again and avocado for lunch. After lunch, I felt like my brain was starving for sugar. Had a bit of head spinning sensation and weakness, like my brain was forcing me to eat some carbs. It was kinda tough shrugging it off. It was bad enough to force the weak willed to drop the idea of continuing but I was determined to go into ketosis so soldiered on. Dinner was the same as Day 1. On day 3, fasting blood sugar was 68. Woah. But here was the weird thing. I did not feel any weakness or hunger. Stuck to the same diet. The only change was at dinner time, I added Green Salad to get some extra calories as the blood sugar readings were getting a bit too low. Before going to bed, I decided to test my ketone levels with Keyto that I had purchased a while back. Score was 7 out of a maximum 8. Yep, I was in ketosis. On day 4, felt great. More alert than I ever felt. Like I had two cups of coffee one after the other but without the jitters. Mind was racing like anything. People remarked that I was being a bit too talkative. On normal days, my mind is a bit hazy and it takes time to collect my thoughts so I prefer to keep quiet most of the time but Keto made me feel like there was no mental impediment at all. I wasn't even trying to think yet the thoughts came rushing faster than a flood and all I could do was just utter profound truths that made the people around me laugh and wonder what the hell was going on with me. There was just one problem. My fasting sugar was 61. After I had brushed my teeth and done with the bathroom stuff, it rose to 76. I was like, what the heck? Then shrugged it off and went about my daily routine. At the end of the day, even though my mind was still alert and racing with crazy profound and enlightening thoughts, my body felt weak. I was struggling to walk. That's when it hit me. My body was eating my muscles and converting the resulting protein into glucose!!! I had purposely stayed away from protein because I didn't want my body converting it to glucose. Faced with turning into the real life version of LoTR's Gollum, I had to do what any sane person at this point would do. I ended the Keto diet with a nice big rice+meat meal that tasted like the best food I had had in ages!

So what did I learn?

Don't do Keto without working out and eating just enough protein to keep muscle mass at a steady level.

Ketones supercharge the brain cells.

A lot of the regenerative ability of Keto diets can be attributed to the low blood glucose levels that minimizes the damage caused by glycation and allows the body to repair itself faster. And of course, autophagy which gets rid of old, troublesome cells and replenishes the body with brand new cells.

Bowel movement was superb. Literally, it was like the best bowel movements I ever had. You couldn't ask for anything moving more effortlessly through your colon.

EDIT: Correctly mentioning the lack of bread in the Fattoush salad I ate.
Last edited by Igor_Kavinski on Mon Oct 21, 2019 3:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Re: My plant based Keto diet experience

Sun Oct 20, 2019 11:32 am

We've said it before, but it is worth repeating: Going on and off of these fad diets is not good for you! Your health would almost certainly improve if you just adopted a balanced diet and engaged in regular physical activity.

Also... leaving aside for the moment whether a keto diet is a good idea in the first place, how is fattoush for dinner part of it? A substantial percentage (probably around half) of its calories are from carbs (the pita bread).
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Igor_Kavinski
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Re: My plant based Keto diet experience

Sun Oct 20, 2019 11:56 am

just brew it! wrote:
Also... leaving aside for the moment whether a keto diet is a good idea in the first place, how is fattoush for dinner part of it? A substantial percentage (probably around half) of its calories are from carbs (the pita bread).


Sorry for not mentioning that. The place I got the Fattoush salad from did not have any bread in it.
 
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Re: My plant based Keto diet experience

Sun Oct 20, 2019 11:59 am

Igor_Kavinski wrote:
just brew it! wrote:
Also... leaving aside for the moment whether a keto diet is a good idea in the first place, how is fattoush for dinner part of it? A substantial percentage (probably around half) of its calories are from carbs (the pita bread).

Sorry for not mentioning that. The place I got the Fattoush salad from did not have any bread in it.

It's not really fattoush then. It's just a salad.
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Re: My plant based Keto diet experience

Sun Oct 20, 2019 12:16 pm

just brew it! wrote:
It's not really fattoush then. It's just a salad.


The restaurant called it Fattoush salad.
 
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Re: My plant based Keto diet experience

Sun Oct 20, 2019 1:56 pm

Igor_Kavinski wrote:
just brew it! wrote:
It's not really fattoush then. It's just a salad.

The restaurant called it Fattoush salad.

Fattoush is a type of salad, with toasted or fried flatbread as the defining ingredient. Take out the flatbread, and it's not really fattoush any more. Of course the restaurant is free to call it whatever they want; but it's misleading, and people who are expecting traditional fattoush are probably going to be disappointed (and still hungry) after ordering it.
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Re: My plant based Keto diet experience

Sun Oct 20, 2019 2:53 pm

This reminds me of a documentary about the guy who at one point had the record for longest time with no food. i think it was 55 days or 60 days or something. Anyway i could tell during the documentary that he was hoping for a butterfly type transformation or something and was sorely disappointed when he at the final weigh in he lost as much as you'd expect someone to lose eating 1k a day. In fact, i'd hazard a guess that he would have lost more weight with slight food intake to help fuel the breakdown of fat and other supporting processes for weight loss and without the risk for body shut down which appeared to be happening near the end of the record.

Anyway, these stupid ideas are always founded on lack of understanding about how the body works, a deep affinity for fad behavior and possibly hipster fad behavior, and the desire for quick miracle fixes which is again tied to the lack of any understanding of biology.

What's really annoying about these misinformed fad diets is you can find really good information about effective long term intake strategies("diet" in it's appropriate form) in sports and medicine journals. Keto is useful in certain situations. It's useful for diabetics, because regardless of how unhealthy it is, it's healthier than the effects of 300+ sugar, and it can be useful for losing weight because it sustains a more continuous breakdown of fat. What it's not useful for is "super charging brain cells" or "allowing the body to repair itself".
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Re: My plant based Keto diet experience

Sun Oct 20, 2019 4:21 pm

Heiwashin wrote:
What it's not useful for is "super charging brain cells" or "allowing the body to repair itself".


"Science" begs to differ.

https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/mi ... antageous/

A ketogenic diet also increases the number of mitochondria, so called “energy factories” in brain cells.


A ketogenic diet may also DIRECTLY inhibit a major source of neuronal stress, by -well- acting like a blueberry. Reactive oxygen species are unfortunate byproducts of cellular metabolism. Unlike the gas Oxygen, these “oxidants” have a single electron that makes them highly reactive, bombarding into proteins and membranes and wrecking their structure. Increased oxidants are a hallmark of aging, stroke and neurodegeneration.

Ketones directly inhibit the production of these violent molecules, and enhance their breakdown through increasing the activity of glutathione peroxidase, a part of our innate anti-oxidant system. The low intake of carbohydrates also directly reduces glucose oxidation (something called “glycolysis”). Using a glucose-like non-metabolized analogue, one study found that neurons activate stress proteins to lower oxidant levels and stabilize mitochondria.


https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25401509

Regeneration of sciatic nerves was improved in KD - preconditioned rats. These results suggest a neuroprotective effect of KD on peripheral nerves.
 
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Re: My plant based Keto diet experience

Sun Oct 20, 2019 5:22 pm

You read way too much into a study that doesn't show any data. They may have observed an improvement so miniscule it's within the margin of error. To a lab a 0.01% difference is worth noting, but often in our use case's it's useless. At any rate, even with studies you need to approach them expecting good empirical data. Often times that data is listed in the abstract, but here it's not. That always makes me raise an eyebrow. I know you're going to go with it anyway. Any hope of your hipster fad diet without any real proof is still good enough.

And the first one only talks about the affects on mitochondria which isn't surprising since that's what handles energy in general. There was only speculation on what benefits that could maybe possibly have on the cell level, but again you're going to breathe that in like gospel.
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Re: My plant based Keto diet experience

Sun Oct 20, 2019 6:56 pm

What do y'all suppose is the incidence of narcissism among conspiracy theorists? I think the biggest attractor to conspiracy theories is the notion that you're so smart you know the secret that the common dumb-dumb doesn't.
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Re: My plant based Keto diet experience

Mon Oct 21, 2019 3:01 am

bthylafh wrote:
What do y'all suppose is the incidence of narcissism among conspiracy theorists? I think the biggest attractor to conspiracy theories is the notion that you're so smart you know the secret that the common dumb-dumb doesn't.


Quite the contrary, I hate myself for not being smart. You have no idea about the troubles I have gone through due to my lack of "think before you leap" instinct. Either I am suicidal or I trust God so much that I believe He will protect me from the worst, even if that is myself. I don't think of the common people as dumb. Just blissfully ignorant.
 
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Re: My plant based Keto diet experience

Mon Oct 21, 2019 3:40 am

Heiwashin wrote:
You read way too much into a study that doesn't show any data. They may have observed an improvement so miniscule it's within the margin of error. To a lab a 0.01% difference is worth noting, but often in our use case's it's useless. At any rate, even with studies you need to approach them expecting good empirical data. Often times that data is listed in the abstract, but here it's not. That always makes me raise an eyebrow. I know you're going to go with it anyway. Any hope of your hipster fad diet without any real proof is still good enough.

And the first one only talks about the affects on mitochondria which isn't surprising since that's what handles energy in general. There was only speculation on what benefits that could maybe possibly have on the cell level, but again you're going to breathe that in like gospel.


Why bother waiting for someone to do a study when Keto diet is relatively easy to do yourself? You will feel the difference on the 4th day and it is just impossible to deny the positive effects you will feel unless your life's purpose is to simply discredit me. Keto Diet promotes autophagy and lipophagy. Disruption of these normal bodily processes leads to many medical conditions as described here: https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/ful ... jcmm.14172

I just don't get why people are so afraid of starving themselves for a few days. Our ancestors went through that regularly and it only strengthened them.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6125375/

The changes found in disease-free animals in our current and previous studies (Elamin et al., 2017) indicate that the use of ketone bodies as an energy source can be associated with a healthier metabolic phenotype and an enhanced redox state even in the absence of disease or senescence. Furthermore, the NAD+ precursor nicotinamide ribose and PARP inhibitors are proposed to combat cancer and a host of inflammatory and neurodegenerative diseases (Basello and Scovassi, 2015; Lee et al., 2015; Ohmoto and Yachida, 2017; Vaur et al., 2017). We provide evidence that consuming a KD can mobilize similar mechanisms, and promote the metabolic resilience necessary to combat neurodegenerative and age-associated diseases.


https://drwillcole.com/exactly-how-the- ... lammation/

Ketosis has also been shown to stimulate increased autophagy, or cellular clean-up and repair.

The simple version: The ketogenic diet triggers a complex biochemical process that directly fights inflammation, reducing and calming the chronic inflammation related to just about every health problem we see today.


https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/319287.php

We expected some differences [in mice fed the keto diet], but I was impressed by the magnitude we observed - a 13 percent increase in median life span for the mice on a high-fat versus high-carb diet. In humans, that would be 7 to 10 years. But equally important, those mice retained quality of health in later life.


https://www.hindawi.com/journals/jnme/2018/5157645/

Among the chronic and degenerative diseases in which impaired mitochondrial function is a contributing factor, many respond favorably to lifestyle interventions focused on diet and exercise. The therapeutic potential of nutritional ketosis stands out in this regard. For example, in just the first 10 weeks of an ongoing clinical trial with hundreds of type 2 diabetics following a ketogenic diet, glycated hemoglobin (HbA1c) decreased to below the diagnostic threshold in more than a third of patients, and prescription medication was reduced or eliminated for more than half of patients [12]. Convincing arguments for a ketogenic diet to be the default treatment for diabetes are a decade old [13] and have continued to gain support since then [14]. Similar arguments are developing for obesity [10, 11], neurodegenerative diseases [19, 20, 27–30], cardiovascular disease [15–17], cancer [18–26], and even aging [31, 32]. Although the mechanisms through which a ketogenic diet may improve these conditions expand beyond mitochondrial function, the great extent to which nutritional ketosis increases reliance on mitochondrial metabolism strongly suggests that mitochondrial adaptation is a central factor.


https://blog.daveasprey.com/mitochondria-function/

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Re: My plant based Keto diet experience

Mon Oct 21, 2019 3:52 am

just brew it! wrote:
Igor_Kavinski wrote:
just brew it! wrote:
It's not really fattoush then. It's just a salad.

The restaurant called it Fattoush salad.

Fattoush is a type of salad, with toasted or fried flatbread as the defining ingredient. Take out the flatbread, and it's not really fattoush any more. Of course the restaurant is free to call it whatever they want; but it's misleading, and people who are expecting traditional fattoush are probably going to be disappointed (and still hungry) after ordering it.


https://www.myfitnesspal.com/food/calor ... -255495959

That's the one I ate.
 
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Re: My plant based Keto diet experience

Mon Oct 21, 2019 4:56 am

Igor_Kavinski wrote:
Quite the contrary, I hate myself for not being smart. You have no idea about the troubles I have gone through due to my lack of "think before you leap" instinct.

A healthy dose of skepticism whenever you see claims that seem "too good to be true" would help A LOT. It isn't so much about being smart (in the "book smarts" sense) as it is about learning how to realize when people are spewing bullsh*t.

Igor_Kavinski wrote:
Either I am suicidal

You need to see someone about that. Seriously. GET HELP.

Igor_Kavinski wrote:
or I trust God so much that I believe He will protect me from the worst, even if that is myself.

At the risk of dragging this off the rails into R&P territory, you just can't operate that way! While faith may help you navigate the aftermath of bad life decisions mentally and spiritually, it isn't going to prevent you from being affected by the consequences. You're just going to keep bouncing from one crisis to another.

Igor_Kavinski wrote:
I don't think of the common people as dumb. Just blissfully ignorant.

Having a healthy dose of skepticism about claims that seem too good to be true and run counter to the preponderance of past evidence (or take evidence out of context to reach an illogical conclusion) isn't ignorance. In fact, it is the opposite of ignorance.

Look, I realize that science doesn't always get it right, and "science denialism" is fashionable right now. And thinking "outside the box" is how new breakthroughs happen. But just because an idea is outside the mainstream doesn't automatically make it better; in most cases, unconventional theories are just wild-a** ideas that end up being wrong. In MOST (but not all...) cases, you will be better off if you trust the consensus of the experts.
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Re: My plant based Keto diet experience

Mon Oct 21, 2019 5:45 am

just brew it! wrote:
Igor_Kavinski wrote:
Either I am suicidal

You need to see someone about that. Seriously. GET HELP.

Nah. As long as I don't intentionally do something clearly stupid, I'm fine. I actually love life more now after going through a number of health crises.

just brew it! wrote:
Igor_Kavinski wrote:
or I trust God so much that I believe He will protect me from the worst, even if that is myself.

At the risk of dragging this off the rails into R&P territory, you just can't operate that way! While faith may help you navigate the aftermath of bad life decisions mentally and spiritually, it isn't going to prevent you from being affected by the consequences. You're just going to keep bouncing from one crisis to another.


Aptly described my situation. Sadly, can't help it. I guess I enjoy it now.

just brew it! wrote:
In MOST (but not all...) cases, you will be better off if you trust the consensus of the experts.


And while the experts are drinking their lattes and attending useless conferences, people are dying.
 
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Re: My plant based Keto diet experience

Mon Oct 21, 2019 9:01 am

I think Igor had one too many onion shakes

Fun fact - that particular post has never strayed far from my mind. I always thought it was one of the most bizarre, humorous, almost Andy Kaufmanesque, posts on TR (and on the the internet). At least Igor's been consistent with the alternative ideas :lol:
 
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Re: My plant based Keto diet experience

Mon Oct 21, 2019 9:15 am

Igor_Kavinski wrote:
And while the experts are drinking their lattes and attending useless conferences, people are dying.

Your odds of doing something stupid that you'll eventually come to regret are still way lower if you go with the experts' opinion rather than random web sites pushing untested pseudo-science.
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Re: My plant based Keto diet experience

Mon Oct 21, 2019 9:41 am

just brew it! wrote:
Igor_Kavinski wrote:
And while the experts are drinking their lattes and attending useless conferences, people are dying.

Your odds of doing something stupid that you'll eventually come to regret are still way lower if you go with the experts' opinion rather than random web sites pushing untested pseudo-science.


https://techreport.com/forums/viewtopic ... 0#p1414259

Some of the links in this post are from respected websites.
 
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Re: My plant based Keto diet experience

Mon Oct 21, 2019 9:44 am

SecretMaster wrote:
I think Igor had one too many onion shakes

Fun fact - that particular post has never strayed far from my mind. I always thought it was one of the most bizarre, humorous, almost Andy Kaufmanesque, posts on TR (and on the the internet). At least Igor's been consistent with the alternative ideas :lol:


Thank you for that. I haven't had any more onion shakes ever since that. It was HARD. As in, don't want to think, Oh God please, never again HARD. But that experience also emboldened me due to its success in resolving my health issue and hence why I still persist in seeking alternative therapies.
 
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Re: My plant based Keto diet experience

Mon Oct 21, 2019 10:00 am

Igor_Kavinski wrote:
Some of the links in this post are from respected websites.

...and the ones that are seem to be animal studies, not human trials. Unless/until there have been properly peer-reviewed human clinical trials, you need to treat these things with a healthy dose of skepticism.
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Re: My plant based Keto diet experience

Mon Oct 21, 2019 10:14 am

just brew it! wrote:
Igor_Kavinski wrote:
Some of the links in this post are from respected websites.

...and the ones that are seem to be animal studies, not human trials. Unless/until there have been properly peer-reviewed human clinical trials, you need to treat these things with a healthy dose of skepticism.


I might not be alive by the time human clinical trials finish, or even begin!
 
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Re: My plant based Keto diet experience

Mon Oct 21, 2019 10:22 am

Igor_Kavinski wrote:
just brew it! wrote:
Igor_Kavinski wrote:
Some of the links in this post are from respected websites.

...and the ones that are seem to be animal studies, not human trials. Unless/until there have been properly peer-reviewed human clinical trials, you need to treat these things with a healthy dose of skepticism.

I might not be alive by the time human clinical trials finish, or even begin!

Keep trying untested "miracle cures" (especially if they are instead of getting proper treatment), and you're going to worsen your odds of making it that long.
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Re: My plant based Keto diet experience

Mon Oct 21, 2019 10:26 am

just brew it! wrote:
Keep trying untested "miracle cures" (especially if they are instead of getting proper treatment), and you're going to worsen your odds of making it that long.


There IS no proper treatment for my conditions. At least, not something that is financially viable. And whatever I have tried so far has given me great results. God is Great. Maybe this is happening for the sole reason that I might share this with the world so others can also benefit.
 
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Re: My plant based Keto diet experience

Wed Oct 23, 2019 10:53 am

I did keto for about eight months in 2012. I lost 60 lbs, and my blood sugar stabilized from diabetic levels to high normal ones with no medication.

My blood iron also spiked to a point where if a dietary change didnt fix it I would have to start bloodletting. I stoppped the keto.

Since then I gained back about 35 lbs and am diabetic again, but am not doing bloodletting for crazy blood iron levels.
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Re: My plant based Keto diet experience

Wed Oct 23, 2019 11:26 am

pikaporeon wrote:
I did keto for about eight months in 2012. I lost 60 lbs, and my blood sugar stabilized from diabetic levels to high normal ones with no medication.

My blood iron also spiked to a point where if a dietary change didnt fix it I would have to start bloodletting. I stoppped the keto.

Since then I gained back about 35 lbs and am diabetic again, but am not doing bloodletting for crazy blood iron levels.



You were just taking on to much iron heavy meat protein. Replace those calories with fat instead.
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Re: My plant based Keto diet experience

Wed Oct 23, 2019 11:28 am

pikaporeon wrote:
I did keto for about eight months in 2012. I lost 60 lbs, and my blood sugar stabilized from diabetic levels to high normal ones with no medication.
My blood iron also spiked to a point where if a dietary change didnt fix it I would have to start bloodletting. I stoppped the keto.
Since then I gained back about 35 lbs and am diabetic again, but am not doing bloodletting for crazy blood iron levels.

Just prick your finger and then use a really strong magnet to pull all the iron out of your blood. Problem solved.
 
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Re: My plant based Keto diet experience

Wed Oct 23, 2019 11:35 am

He probably has hemochromatosis, a common white male ailment where to much iron is absorbed and blood letting really is the treatment. Ancient doctors got that one right. :lol:
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Re: My plant based Keto diet experience

Wed Oct 23, 2019 11:54 am

Heiwashin wrote:
pikaporeon wrote:
I did keto for about eight months in 2012. I lost 60 lbs, and my blood sugar stabilized from diabetic levels to high normal ones with no medication.

My blood iron also spiked to a point where if a dietary change didnt fix it I would have to start bloodletting. I stoppped the keto.

Since then I gained back about 35 lbs and am diabetic again, but am not doing bloodletting for crazy blood iron levels.



You were just taking on to much iron heavy meat protein. Replace those calories with fat instead.

yup; red meat was a fat source. I was hitting my macros properly just didn't source well
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Re: My plant based Keto diet experience

Wed Oct 23, 2019 12:04 pm

Nuts are the best natural source of fat with little negatives, specifically the few low on carbs like pecans and brazil nuts. The extreme guys take to buying medium chain triglyceride and using it directly. I keep a backup bottle of vegetable oil but it's rarely used. Oh and if you actually take up that advice, keep in mind most nuts aren't complete proteins but whey is for an easy fillout of the amino acids if you're restricting meat.
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Re: My plant based Keto diet experience

Wed Oct 23, 2019 12:08 pm

pikaporeon wrote:
I did keto for about eight months in 2012. I lost 60 lbs, and my blood sugar stabilized from diabetic levels to high normal ones with no medication.

My blood iron also spiked to a point where if a dietary change didnt fix it I would have to start bloodletting. I stoppped the keto.

Since then I gained back about 35 lbs and am diabetic again, but am not doing bloodletting for crazy blood iron levels.


You need to try again with a plant based Keto diet as that will heal you. But do it max 5 days a month. After three months, you should note a difference in your various blood test parameters.

There is PronlonFMD if you can afford it.

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