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Igor_Kavinski
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Re: My plant based Keto diet experience

Wed Oct 23, 2019 12:13 pm

Heiwashin wrote:
Nuts are the best natural source of fat with little negatives, ...


Not in my experience. Depending on your genotype and gut bacteria population, they might clog your kidneys.

Renal Failure due to Excessive Intake of Almonds in the Absence of Oxalobacter formigenes

https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/5-s ... 1310046721

Avoid stone-forming foods: Beets, chocolate, spinach, rhubarb, tea, and most nuts are rich in oxalate, and colas are rich in phosphate, both of which can contribute to kidney stones. If you suffer from stones, your doctor may advise you to avoid these foods or to consume them in smaller amounts.
 
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Re: My plant based Keto diet experience

Wed Oct 23, 2019 12:18 pm

Igor_Kavinski wrote:
Heiwashin wrote:
Nuts are the best natural source of fat with little negatives, ...


Not in my experience. Depending on your genotype and gut bacteria population, they might clog your kidneys.

https://www.amjmed.com/article/S0002-9343(15)00682-8/pdf

https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/5-s ... 1310046721

Avoid stone-forming foods: Beets, chocolate, spinach, rhubarb, tea, and most nuts are rich in oxalate, and colas are rich in phosphate, both of which can contribute to kidney stones. If you suffer from stones, your doctor may advise you to avoid these foods or to consume them in smaller amounts.


Yea I'm not even sure if your experience is real, but if it is it's probably easier to understand while shrooming.

At any rate the nature of moving to keto for health reasons is already about adjusting to accommodate personal needs. If you have a problem with kidney stones that's just one more. I also only buy unsalted nuts for the sake of maintaining normal bp with such an unusual diet.

At least half of my intake in a day comes from nuts and has been for 4 or 5 months.
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Re: My plant based Keto diet experience

Wed Oct 23, 2019 12:49 pm

Igor_Kavinski wrote:
pikaporeon wrote:
I did keto for about eight months in 2012. I lost 60 lbs, and my blood sugar stabilized from diabetic levels to high normal ones with no medication.

My blood iron also spiked to a point where if a dietary change didnt fix it I would have to start bloodletting. I stoppped the keto.

Since then I gained back about 35 lbs and am diabetic again, but am not doing bloodletting for crazy blood iron levels.


You need to try again with a plant based Keto diet as that will heal you. But do it max 5 days a month. After three months, you should note a difference in your various blood test parameters.

There is PronlonFMD if you can afford it.

whats the point of just bouncing into ketosis for a week

don't bother answering.
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Igor_Kavinski
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Re: My plant based Keto diet experience

Wed Oct 23, 2019 2:58 pm

pikaporeon wrote:
whats the point of just bouncing into ketosis for a week

don't bother answering.


I have to because the reason this works is not logical and intuitive and it was found through experimentation by Valter Longo. When you do a 800 to 1200 calories Keto diet for 5 days, your body will go into starvation mode. Since the nutrients are lacking in your diet, your body will start salvaging everything inside on an emergency basis and clean out the cellular debris as well as senile cells. The breakdown of these will result in enough material for the body to generate new cells. This regenerative mechanism enhances your chances of survival. Do this 5 days three months in a row and your body will have enough new cells to reduce or even cure the symptoms of whatever metabolic ailments you have acquired over your lifetime. What I described is an oversimplification. For specifics, you may read this: https://l-nutra.com/pages/fasting-mimicking-diet/

Also,
https://www.bluezones.com/2016/04/fasti ... longevity/
https://www.kevinrose.com/single-post/valter-longo
https://drchatterjee.com/55-eating-for- ... ter-longo/
 
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Re: My plant based Keto diet experience

Tue Oct 29, 2019 9:26 am

oh dear

1: Starvation mode does not exist.

2: 1200 calories a day is a manageable consistent deficit for a lot of people (esp women) - and any deficit-based strategy should be related to either your basal metabolic rate or your total daily energy expenditure. Giving a hard number without accounting for either reeks of ignorance.

3: Five days of keto the only nutrient you're lacking is carbs, it's not going to eliminate arbitrary cells you've labelled with senility or similar. Five days of heavy caloric deficit is, at most, going to attack fat and muscular cells.

Good thing your post wasn't defeated by jarring contradictions or anything right?
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Igor_Kavinski
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Re: My plant based Keto diet experience

Tue Oct 29, 2019 11:43 am

pikaporeon wrote:
oh dear

1: Starvation mode does not exist.


Yes it does. It's when ketones become the primary fuel for your cells. You enter starvation mode in roughly 3 days. That's the amount of time it takes your body to exhaust its glycogen supply when you restrict carbs.

pikaporeon wrote:
2: 1200 calories a day is a manageable consistent deficit for a lot of people (esp women) - and any deficit-based strategy should be related to either your basal metabolic rate or your total daily energy expenditure. Giving a hard number without accounting for either reeks of ignorance.


Why bother with numbers? You could do it with zero calories but that would be rather harsh. Calories need to be low to encourage your body to prioritize its survival over the existence of senile/redundant/malfunctioning cells thus leading to autophagy.

pikaporeon wrote:
3: Five days of keto the only nutrient you're lacking is carbs, it's not going to eliminate arbitrary cells you've labelled with senility or similar. Five days of heavy caloric deficit is, at most, going to attack fat and muscular cells.


You probably WANT your body to attack your fat cells. To prevent muscle atrophy, you can consume just enough plant protein powder (around 40 to 50g) with resistance training to aid muscle synthesis but avoid gluconeogenesis which can take you out of ketosis.

By the way, we both don't have a Ph.D in nutrition so we can argue till we are both blue in the face. Or you could try my suggestion for 5 days and see for yourself. I didn't invent any of this. It's what has been discovered through various research studies. Honestly, starvation is nothing to fear: https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-17095605

In fact, you might be surprised that your glucose control will actually improve (unless you are really really obese. Then it would just take several starvation sessions to get your body to remove the fat clogging your liver and pancreas).
 
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Re: My plant based Keto diet experience

Tue Oct 29, 2019 12:09 pm

Igor_Kavinski wrote:
pikaporeon wrote:
oh dear

1: Starvation mode does not exist.


Yes it does. It's when ketones become the primary fuel for your cells. You enter starvation mode in roughly 3 days. That's the amount of time it takes your body to exhaust its glycogen supply when you restrict carbs.


What you're referring to is adaptive thermogenesis, and it really isn't something you want to get into. First off, it's not going to happen in three days - it takes more like two weeks. Second, it's not going to result in any sort of desirable, controlled weight loss... you're going to lose muscle mass first, and the weight is *very* likely to come back as soon as you're eating normally again. This is not a good strategy for long term weight loss, and it's an even worse strategy for overall health and well being.

pikaporeon wrote:
2: 1200 calories a day is a manageable consistent deficit for a lot of people (esp women) - and any deficit-based strategy should be related to either your basal metabolic rate or your total daily energy expenditure. Giving a hard number without accounting for either reeks of ignorance.


Why bother with numbers? You could do it with zero calories but that would be rather harsh. Calories need to be low to encourage your body to prioritize its survival over the existence of senile/redundant/malfunctioning cells thus leading to autophagy.


Because those numbers are based on actual evidence about roughly how much humans need to eat to maintain a healthy metabolism. You can add to this or subtract from this if you want, to gain weight or lose weight. But back to the main point... this notion that your body is going to enter some kind of "mode" to make you lose weight in any way that you want is nonsense. Adaptive thermogenesis is a defensive reaction to you starving yourself.

If you want to lose weight, it's actually pretty simple: Burn more calories than you're consuming. Exercise more, eat less, and eat things that your body can use most effectively. Trying to take shortcuts like starving yourself to achieve some kind of "starvation mode" isn't healthy and isn't effective in the long term. And it's certainly not going to happen in the time frames you're talking about.

pikaporeon wrote:
3: Five days of keto the only nutrient you're lacking is carbs, it's not going to eliminate arbitrary cells you've labelled with senility or similar. Five days of heavy caloric deficit is, at most, going to attack fat and muscular cells.


You probably WANT your body to attack your fat cells. To prevent muscle atrophy, you can consume just enough plant protein powder (around 40 to 50g) with resistance training to aid muscle synthesis but avoid gluconeogenesis which can take you out of ketosis.


Eat less food, get more exercise; and make both of those things a permanent habit. Anything you do diet-wise over a period of five days is going to be meaningless in the long run... at least in terms of anything positive.
 
Igor_Kavinski
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Re: My plant based Keto diet experience

Tue Oct 29, 2019 12:20 pm

cphite wrote:
(conventional wisdom)

cphite, I used to be 75kg and now I'm less than 55kg. I have stuffed myself to the gills and yet my body doesn't seem to be storing fat anymore. Maybe I've gotten what Captain America had before his "experiment" and can't seem to gain weight anymore. I agree that it might not be what someone looking to lose weight might want. Get rid of one problem and trade it for another, though in my case, I feel rather relieved. I don't have to hate myself anymore due to my bulging butt, thighs and tummy.
 
Glorious
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Re: My plant based Keto diet experience

Wed Oct 30, 2019 8:51 am

Igor_Kavinski wrote:
cphite, I used to be 75kg and now I'm less than 55kg. I have stuffed myself to the gills and yet my body doesn't seem to be storing fat anymore. Maybe I've gotten what Captain America had before his "experiment" and can't seem to gain weight anymore


What, cancer?

Look, dude, if you are suddenly unable to gain weight no matter what you eat when previously it was a significant issue, I'm not joking, that is a literal indicator for cancer. A big one, actually.

You're saying you've lost ~40 pounds. You indicate you did some diet changes to achieve that, so it's not that troubling.

Here's the thing- If you inexplicably lose ~10 pounds (5kg) in 3 months, TALK TO A DOCTOR.

Virtually *EVERYONE* who gets the most aggressive kinds of cancer (Pancreatic, the worst forms of esophageal, stomach, lung) has the "inexplicable weight loss" prior to diagnosis.

There are endless anecdotes of the guy or gal who is initially excited at their "new" ability to "eat anything" and "lose weight" until someone tells them they maybe ought to see a doctor and then they're dead in weeks.

If it is truly inexplicable, it likely isn't some COMIC-BOOK affliction( SRSLY?!? ), but rather tumor-related cachexia which adversely affects your prognosis to the same degree it affects your weight.

Now, yes, you are explaining that inverse of this (you lost weight through explicable means, but now inexplicably cannot gain it back), but that could just be the flip side of the same coin that you only coincidentally associate with your (deliberate) previous weight loss, understand?

In other words: SEE. A. (REAL). DOCTOR. IMMEDIATELY!

(assuming this isn't just misunderstanding or false advertising)
 
Igor_Kavinski
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Re: My plant based Keto diet experience

Wed Oct 30, 2019 9:34 am

Glorious wrote:
Igor_Kavinski wrote:
cphite, I used to be 75kg and now I'm less than 55kg. I have stuffed myself to the gills and yet my body doesn't seem to be storing fat anymore. Maybe I've gotten what Captain America had before his "experiment" and can't seem to gain weight anymore

What, cancer?


Maybe. I did get a physical over a month ago. Doctor said there didn't seem to be anything to worry about. Will see the doc again in a few months. Isn't cachexia supposed to result in pain from the lactic acid accumulation by the cancer cells' metabolic activities? Anyway, if it really IS cancer, there's a good reason behind getting it. I'm a waste of space anyway. Haven't been able to do anything worthwhile that I wanted to in this life so maybe I DESERVE cancer. By the way, are you supernaturally gifted or something? Your previous diagnosis of me having diabetes was correct. I did have it for two years. Only, I never pricked my finger and never got diagnosed properly. My hbA1c that sent alarms blaring in my brain was 5.6 after which I spent the next two years trying different things to get rid of it. Finally, by the Grace of God, struck gold with the rice diet. My last visit to the doc was to see if I still had it. Thankfully, it came out to be 5.17. Your cancer diagnosis might be correct, given that high blood sugar damages DNA and may lead to cancerous mutations. Anyhow, can't worry anymore. Life is too short as it is.
 
pikaporeon
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Re: My plant based Keto diet experience

Wed Oct 30, 2019 1:54 pm

Keto works for weight loss because it makes you less hungry so you eat at a deficit more easily.

As for 'stuffing yourself to the gills' - I would be curious to read a food log with accurate weights of what 'stuffing yourself to the gills' is on a regular basis.
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Igor_Kavinski
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Re: My plant based Keto diet experience

Wed Oct 30, 2019 2:19 pm

I'm not keeping a food log since I'm not following any diet at the moment. When I'm feeling like I can "eat a horse", I usually eat (for lunch or dinner), around 500g of delicious biryani rice with chicken or beef, around 300 to 400g of salad and finish my meal with around 500g of watermelon. I usually eat while watching a movie (at home) or reading articles on the internet (at office) and eat slowly so it easily takes me 30 to 40 minutes to finish my meals. When i'm not feeling like eating animals, I get my protein from quinoa salad or chickpeas or hummus and around 400g to 500g of white boiled rice. Sometimes if I'm lucky (depends on the person at the cooked food counter at the local supermarket), I might be able to get just biryani rice without the meat so then I can enjoy it with hummus or other veggie protein sources. That's pretty much what counts as huge for me. After eating these meals, I don't usually get hungry for the next 6 to 8 hours. For a brief period of about a month, I was eating camel meat and drinking camel milk exclusively. That was great while it lasted. Did kinda blow my budget doing that, though.
 
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Re: My plant based Keto diet experience

Thu Nov 28, 2019 10:09 am

While reading up about Glucose Tolerance Factor, I found out that chromium might be effective in decreasing insulin resistance by reducing the amount of iron stored in the body. Iron??? Then I find out that iron accumulated in fat cells causes insulin resistance and it is the excess iron that leads to the apoptosis of pancreatic beta cells. That's why the Rice Diet works because there is very little iron in it. Following the Rice Diet for a prolonged period of time will help the body get rid of the excess iron, allowing insulin sensitivity to be established. Of course, if iron overload is the real underlying cause then reducing iron stores through other means should also work. So what do you know? If you are a frequent blood donor or you undergo iron chelation therapy, after a while, you will experience improved blood glucose metabolism to the point where you may no longer need to take oral medications for controlling your glucose levels. If you are a diabetic and eat more meat than vegetables along with copious amounts of Vitamin C, you are digging your own grave. Cut back on both and your condition WILL improve.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3821171/

Deferoxamine also may have therapeutic value in the treatment of diabetes. Excess iron appears to be associated with insulin resistance and Type II diabetes, as well as increased risk of diabetic complications. Use of DFO to lower elevated serum ferritin levels in Type II diabetic patients improved fasting glucose, triglyceride and HbA1c levels and correlated well with diabetes control.
 
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Re: My plant based Keto diet experience

Thu Nov 28, 2019 11:01 am

Unless you've been diagnosed with excessively high iron levels, going on a low-iron diet could lead to anemia.
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Heiwashin
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Re: My plant based Keto diet experience

Thu Nov 28, 2019 11:04 am

Man, i hoped this thread was done :roll:

Well here's an inspirobot motivational because it's as useful as this topic is.

Image
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Igor_Kavinski
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Re: My plant based Keto diet experience

Thu Nov 28, 2019 11:06 am

just brew it! wrote:
Unless you've been diagnosed with excessively high iron levels, going on a low-iron diet could lead to anemia.


Diagnosing excess iron stores is tricky: https://labtestsonline.org/tests/transf ... -tibc-uibc

Be sure to check the table under "What does the test result mean?".

Please be sure to avail the services of an experienced professional/clinic/hospital if you want to be sure that your diabetes is due to iron overload.
 
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Re: My plant based Keto diet experience

Thu Nov 28, 2019 11:09 am

Heiwashin wrote:
Man, i hoped this thread was done :roll:


I only posted in light of new information that I happened upon by accident. As always, I wish you and every Diabetic a healthy and Diabetes-free life.
 
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Re: My plant based Keto diet experience

Thu Nov 28, 2019 11:13 am

Igor_Kavinski wrote:
Heiwashin wrote:
Man, i hoped this thread was done :roll:


I only posted in light of new information that I happened upon by accident. As always, I wish you and every Diabetic a healthy and Diabetes-free life.


I bet brother, but it feels like you're showing people the light by setting them on fire. Technically enlightening, but maybe misguided.
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Re: My plant based Keto diet experience

Thu Nov 28, 2019 11:17 am

Heiwashin wrote:
but it feels like you're showing people the light by setting them on fire.

Build a man a fire, he'll be warm for the night.
Set a man on fire, he'll be warm for the rest of his life.
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just brew it!
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Re: My plant based Keto diet experience

Thu Nov 28, 2019 11:19 am

Igor_Kavinski wrote:
just brew it! wrote:
Unless you've been diagnosed with excessively high iron levels, going on a low-iron diet could lead to anemia.

Diagnosing excess iron stores is tricky: https://labtestsonline.org/tests/transf ... -tibc-uibc

Be sure to check the table under "What does the test result mean?".

Please be sure to avail the services of an experienced professional/clinic/hospital if you want to be sure that your diabetes is due to iron overload.

Yes, that was basically my point. Your previous post could've been interpreted as "Lower your iron levels and cure your diabetes!". But if elevated iron isn't a contributing factor to that person's diabetes in the first place, following that advice could make an already unhealthy person even more unhealthy.
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Re: My plant based Keto diet experience

Sat Feb 22, 2020 12:28 pm

Unless you have some sick organs I don't think that diet is smth important. Better to work out hard and burn more calories. If you eat less calories and work out you will always stay fit
 
Igor_Kavinski
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Re: My plant based Keto diet experience

Sat Feb 22, 2020 12:54 pm

Muxxo wrote:
Unless you have some sick organs I don't think that diet is smth important. Better to work out hard and burn more calories. If you eat less calories and work out you will always stay fit


The diet is meant for sick people but if a normal person with a family history of diabetes/hypertension/cardiovascular disease etc. were to adopt it, it would prevent or greatly delay them from meeting the same fate as their ancestors. Eating less is the hardest thing to do, much much harder than exercising, especially when you love food. I think only workaholics manage to do that since they are so busy most of the time that they might actually forget to eat. My brother used to weigh much more than me. Then he became a dentist and now he works off his calories in his clinic without really trying hard.
 
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Re: My plant based Keto diet experience

Sat Feb 22, 2020 2:01 pm

Igor_Kavinski wrote:
The diet is meant for sick people but if a normal person with a family history of diabetes/hypertension/cardiovascular disease etc. were to adopt it, it would prevent or greatly delay them from meeting the same fate as their ancestors. ...

I would replace the word "would" with "might". And there might also be other less desirable long-term effects of eating a Keto diet that we just haven't figured out yet.

There are no magic bullets.
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Re: My plant based Keto diet experience

Sat Feb 22, 2020 8:39 pm

Yeah, you'd think a ketogenic diet was something completely new that nobody had ever tried before from the way some people talk about it. It's ironic how there's so many magic bullets centered around purportedly historic or prehistoric diets. Prehistoric humans were frequent scavengers, and often cracked open the long bones of dead animals to eat the bone marrow that was left behind by other predators. An exclusion diet that claims legitimacy by saying it's what we did in the past should be an immediate red flag. We ate whatever we could back then.

The assumption seems to be that cavemen were never out of shape. I wouldn't be surprised if the average level of physical fitness was much higher in prehistoric times, but that's probably not due so much to what the cavemen ate, but what was eating the cavemen.

Can we please let this thread die and stay dead this time?
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Igor_Kavinski
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Re: My plant based Keto diet experience

Wed Feb 26, 2020 7:49 am

https://thenextweb.com/science/2020/02/ ... -lab-mice/

A billion beta cells. Phew! That sure is a lot. Also explains why you need to be on a 600 calorie diet for two months to give the body time to regenerate all those cells.
 
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Re: My plant based Keto diet experience

Wed Feb 26, 2020 7:52 am

just brew it! wrote:
Igor_Kavinski wrote:
The diet is meant for sick people but if a normal person with a family history of diabetes/hypertension/cardiovascular disease etc. were to adopt it, it would prevent or greatly delay them from meeting the same fate as their ancestors. ...

I would replace the word "would" with "might". And there might also be other less desirable long-term effects of eating a Keto diet that we just haven't figured out yet.

There are no magic bullets.


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Re: My plant based Keto diet experience

Wed Feb 26, 2020 8:14 am

Igor_Kavinski wrote:
https://thenextweb.com/science/2020/02/26/researchers-have-cured-diabetes-in-lab-mice/

A billion beta cells. Phew! That sure is a lot. Also explains why you need to be on a 600 calorie diet for two months to give the body time to regenerate all those cells.

Cells are tiny. A billion cells would represent about 0.003% of the cells in a typical human body.
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Re: My plant based Keto diet experience

Wed Feb 26, 2020 9:04 am

I regret ever posting in this undead thread.
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