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Igor_Kavinski · Sun Mar 22, 2020 8:36 am

JustAnEngineer wrote:
https://www.sciencenews.org/article/cor ... vulnerable
As researchers examine deaths from COVID-19, heart patients appear especially vulnerable. In Italy, where the number of deaths has now surpassed those in China, public health officials reported on March 17 that among 355 people who died, a whopping 76 percent had hypertension and 33 percent had heart disease.
I'm not going to stop taking my ACE inhibitor to control my blood pressure, but this isn't good news.

You can also take just Hawthorn berry supplement and Olive Leaf tea to control your blood pressure without using any drugs. No side effects. I have an underlying condition that gets worse due to high blood pressure. Olive leaf tea especially makes it so that sometimes I wonder if I really have that condition. Unfortunately, sometimes in the morning, I seem to have high blood pressure because the symptoms of that condition rear their ugly heads. Goes away in the afternoon and evening after taking Olive Leaf tea. It's very, very potent. I typically use a single tea bag three times a day before it's depleted of its goodness.

whm1974 · Sun Mar 22, 2020 8:49 am

Igor_Kavinski wrote:
You can also take just Hawthorn berry supplement and Olive Leaf tea to control your blood pressure without using any drugs. No side effects. I have an underlying condition that gets worse due to high blood pressure. Olive leaf tea especially makes it so that sometimes I wonder if I really have that condition. Unfortunately, sometimes in the morning, I seem to have high blood pressure because the symptoms of that condition rear their ugly heads. Goes away in the afternoon and evening after taking Olive Leaf tea. It's very, very potent. I typically use a single tea bag three times a day before it's depleted of its goodness.

You are doing this again??? If Alternative Medicine actually worked, the it wouldn't be called Alternative Medicine now would it? No MD and Hospitals everywhere will be using such stuff. :roll:

Will you please knock it off with peddling Snake Oil for free for the Quacks that sell these products?

Igor_Kavinski · Sun Mar 22, 2020 8:55 am

whm1974 wrote:
Igor_Kavinski wrote:
You can also take just Hawthorn berry supplement and Olive Leaf tea to control your blood pressure without using any drugs. No side effects. I have an underlying condition that gets worse due to high blood pressure. Olive leaf tea especially makes it so that sometimes I wonder if I really have that condition. Unfortunately, sometimes in the morning, I seem to have high blood pressure because the symptoms of that condition rear their ugly heads. Goes away in the afternoon and evening after taking Olive Leaf tea. It's very, very potent. I typically use a single tea bag three times a day before it's depleted of its goodness.

You are doing this again??? If Alternative Medicine actually worked, the it wouldn't be called Alternative Medicine now would it? No MD and Hospitals everywhere will be using such stuff.

Will you please knock it off with peddling Snake Oil for free for the Quacks that sell these products?

How can you say it is Snake oil just because you have never used it? Did you have an ailment that wasn't being treated to your satisfaction by doctors and which made you research the bejeezus out of Nature's wondrous nutrients and herbs? It is easy to simply shrug off herbal medicine as something only Quacks use but if you were a real sufferer of some medical condition and your condition was controlled by herbal medicine, you would turn into a believer in a split second. It all depends on your choice. You choose to believe doctors who are just humans. I choose to believe in the wonders of Nature. Plants have been used for centuries by Healers to treat human ailments. Heck, in the wild, animals have been known to eat herbs to treat themselves. As long as you choose ignorance, you will remain ignorant. No offense, but open your eyes, brother.

whm1974 wrote:
Will you please knock it off with peddling Snake Oil for free for the Quacks that sell these products?

Why isn't the FDA banning the sale of these products if they don't work?

whm1974 · Sun Mar 22, 2020 9:09 am

Igor_Kavinski wrote:
How can you say it is Snake oil just because you have never used it? Did you have an ailment that wasn't being treated to your satisfaction by doctors and which made you research the bejeezus out of Nature's wondrous nutrients and herbs? It is easy to to simply shrug off herbal medicine as something only Quacks use but if you were a real sufferer of some medical condition and your condition was controlled by herbal medicine, you would turn into a believer in a split second. It all depends on your choice. You choose to believe doctors who are just humans. I choose to believe in the wonders of Nature. Plants have been used for centuries by Healers to treat human ailments. Heck, in the wild, animals have been known to eat herbs to treat themselves. As long as you choose ignorance, you will remain ignorant. No offense, but open your eyes, brother.

whm1974 wrote:
Will you please knock it off with peddling Snake Oil for free for the Quacks that sell these products?

Why isn't the FDA banning the sale of these products if they don't work?

While there are Medical Plants that have been long used over thousands of years, and they do work to a degree. However Modern Medicines have the proper and safe doses for patients. When you buy so called Herbal Medicines, how do you know that you getting what you are paying?

Every company selling these products can not make Health and Medical about the supplements at all. If they do, the FDA will go after them and they will face harsh penalties. Usually the States where these products are sold will impose their penalties on top of the FDA as well.

Sun Mar 22, 2020 9:14 am

The FDA has other priorities at the moment. So do law enforcement agencies. Prisons are not accepting new inmates as one of the measures to to reduce the spread of COVID-19. There's no-one who has time to stop your snake-oil salesmen right now, so they keep on spreading their misinformation and making money off of people's ignorance.

People who need actual medical care waste their time and resources on snake-oil that is, at best, harmless but ineffective and at worst, potentially dangerous.

dragontamer5788 · Sun Mar 22, 2020 9:16 am

SecretMaster wrote:
Starfalcon wrote:
Yeah the real **** will hit the fan when the hospitals are full and cant take anymore people, then things get rough. Plus once doctors and nurses start getting sick also and cant work, then hospitals become a bad place to be. That is basically happening in italy now, no room at the hospital or any way to get treatment.

Yeah I think this is a key point with respect to the mortality rate. Without the availability of modern medicine and facilities, the mortality rate is going to be higher. Without doing a cursory Google check, my suspicion is that the infamous Spanish flu would have had a significantly (statistically) improved mortality rate had our knowledge of medicine and medical facilities been up to modern standards. If the medical system becomes compromised, which is a very real possibility and the impetus behind the seemingly draconian measures, the arguments about the low mortality rate become moot. I shudder to think what will happen to countries in Africa and South America if this gets established (and it likely will). Iran might be good proxy for what it would look like.

H1N1 IS the 1918 Spanish Flu. Just looking at the mortality rate of H1N1 2009 vs Spanish Flu 1918 is all you need to know about the difference with modern technology.

In any case, your assertion is correct. With modern tech + hospitals, we pushed the Spanish Flu / H1N1's mortality rate to fractions-of-a-fraction of a percent. Like 0.02% or something really small.

--------

With regards to the mortality rate when hospitals are swamped... note that Italy currently has an 8% mortality rate due to COVID19. (AND a significantly higher testing proportion than the USA). I don't consider Italy to be "representative" of a US-like mortality rate however, because they are out of hospital beds / ICU facilities. The US does have more hospital beds than Italy IIRC, but exponential growth means that any difference in hospital beds is made up with just a few days of growth.

Italy is an incredible outlier among countries. A relatively old population, one of the earliest hit, and a failure of its health care system to cope with the crisis. Nonetheless, it is one of the few "Western" countries with similar culture to us (more similar than China / Korea at least). I'm not so pessimistic to assume Italy's statistics are representative of the USA, but they serve as a warning for how bad things could get if we don't take action.

Vrock · Sun Mar 22, 2020 9:17 am

*munches popcorn*

whm1974 · Sun Mar 22, 2020 9:21 am

Vrock wrote:
*munches popcorn*

Hey I have a whole case of six boxes and two bags of that stuff.

Thanks for mentioning the popcorn Man.

whm1974 · Sun Mar 22, 2020 9:27 am

I almost forgot. The FDA Quack Miranda Warning:
https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Quack_Miranda_Warning
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quack_Miranda_warning

Igor_Kavinski · Sun Mar 22, 2020 9:32 am

whm1974 wrote:
While there are Medical Plants that have been long used over thousands of years, and they do work to a degree. However Modern Medicines have the proper and safe doses for patients. When you buy so called Herbal Medicines, how do you know that you getting what you are paying?

Because there are scrupulous and honest companies out there helmed by individuals with the same qualities who actually care about their mission to help people help themselves. If their products were fake or didn't have the desired affect, they would have gone out of business long ago. Just check the Amazon reviews of especially "Amazon Choice" supplements. People swear by them because their lives changed and now they are living happier lives with lesser or no symptoms. Drugs work up to a point but sooner or later, the side effects will take a toll on the human body. Did you know that statins used to lower LDL cholesterol actually make you lose your muscle mass? They also lower your Co-enzyme Q10 levels which then you need to replenish through CoQ-10 supplements (and this is actually recommended by doctors, thank God). They wouldn't need to do that if they used Olive Leaf tea.

whm1974 wrote:
Every company selling these products can not make Health and Medical about the supplements at all. If they do, the FDA will go after them and they will face harsh penalties. Usually the States where these products are sold will impose their penalties on top of the FDA as well.

This is purely because the drug companies don't want competition from them. The FDA and the drug industry are in a symbiotic (I scratch your back, you scratch mine) relationship. Also, one major reason FDA cannot recommend herbal supplements is because herbs contain MANY active biochemical compounds whereas FDA's modus operandi is to accept research studies doing research on only ONE active biochemical. If you were to take suppose coffee which contains tons of different biochemicals, it would take centuries just to research what each active constituent does. Thank God for the coffee lovers that coffee didn't have to go through the FDA process to be allowed for sale for its many health benefits.

Igor_Kavinski · Sun Mar 22, 2020 9:34 am

JustAnEngineer wrote:
People who need actual medical care waste their time and resources on snake-oil that is, at best, harmless but ineffective and at worst, potentially dangerous.

I would never recommend herbal supplements for emergency medical care. No doubt, in case of emergencies, the established medical system works.

whm1974 · Sun Mar 22, 2020 9:43 am

Igor_Kavinski wrote:
whm1974 wrote:
While there are Medical Plants that have been long used over thousands of years, and they do work to a degree. However Modern Medicines have the proper and safe doses for patients. When you buy so called Herbal Medicines, how do you know that you getting what you are paying?

Because there are scrupulous and honest companies out there helmed by individuals with the same qualities who actually care about their mission to help people help themselves. If their products were fake or didn't have the desired affect, they would have gone out of business long ago. Just check the Amazon reviews of especially "Amazon Choice" supplements. People swear by them because their lives changed and now they are living happier lives with lesser or no symptoms. Drugs work up to a point but sooner or later, the side effects will take a toll on the human body. Did you know that statins used to lower LDL cholesterol actually make you lose your muscle mass? They also lower your Co-enzyme Q10 levels which then you need to replenish through CoQ-10 supplements (and this is actually recommended by doctors, thank God). They wouldn't need to do that if they used Olive Leaf tea.

whm1974 wrote:
Every company selling these products can not make Health and Medical about the supplements at all. If they do, the FDA will go after them and they will face harsh penalties. Usually the States where these products are sold will impose their penalties on top of the FDA as well.

This is purely because the drug companies don't want competition from them. The FDA and the drug industry are in a symbiotic (I scratch your back, you scratch mine) relationship. Also, one major reason FDA cannot recommend herbal supplements is because herbs contain MANY active biochemical compounds whereas FDA's modus operandi is to accept research studies doing research on only ONE active biochemical. If you were to take suppose coffee which contains tons of different biochemicals, it would take centuries just to research what each active constituent does. Thank God for the coffee lovers that coffee didn't have to go through the FDA process to be allowed for sale for its many health benefits.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patent_medicine
Hint: The FDA were formed in large part due to the Snake Oil Salesmen lying their asses off to convince people to buy these fake cures. States also had to form Medical Review Boards to prevent all of the Quackery going around.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quackery

Vrock · Sun Mar 22, 2020 9:46 am

Igor_Kavinski wrote:
Thank God for the coffee lovers that coffee didn't have to go through the FDA process to be allowed for sale for its many health benefits.

Um...you do know what the "F" in "FDA" stands for, right?

whm1974 · Sun Mar 22, 2020 9:59 am

Vrock wrote:
Igor_Kavinski wrote:
Thank God for the coffee lovers that coffee didn't have to go through the FDA process to be allowed for sale for its many health benefits.
Um...you do know what the "F" in "FDA" stands for, right?

Hey!!! Why are you and me that only ones challenging Igor here? Where is @just brew it! when we need him? Lets keep out irons red hot and keep poking "Igor the Bear" until he finally listens to us, and learns that he is merely providing free promotion of the Snake Oil Companies Products. Or is he actually getting paid for doing this?

Igor_Kavinski · Sun Mar 22, 2020 10:24 am

whm1974 wrote:
Hey!!! Why are you and me that only ones challenging Igor here? Where is @just brew it! when we need him? Lets keep out irons red hot and keep poking "Igor the Bear" until he finally listens to us, and learns that he is merely providing free promotion of the Snake Oil Companies Products. Or is he actually getting paid for doing this?

Umm...can you make a new thread to challenge me? Let's not be a nuisance to those who would like to read more about COVID-19 here.

Igor_Kavinski · Sun Mar 22, 2020 10:27 am

Vrock wrote:
Igor_Kavinski wrote:
Thank God for the coffee lovers that coffee didn't have to go through the FDA process to be allowed for sale for its many health benefits.
Um...you do know what the "F" in "FDA" stands for, right?

Why would you assume that coffee is food? It gets people addicted to it. People have withdrawal symptoms and headaches if they give up coffee. What food comes to mind that can do that? Coffee is a plant with potent biochemicals. You don't munch on coffee beans for sustenance.

whm1974 · Sun Mar 22, 2020 10:31 am

Igor_Kavinski wrote:
whm1974 wrote:
Hey!!! Why are you and me that only ones challenging Igor here? Where is @just brew it! when we need him? Lets keep out irons red hot and keep poking "Igor the Bear" until he finally listens to us, and learns that he is merely providing free promotion of the Snake Oil Companies Products. Or is he actually getting paid for doing this?

Umm...can you make a new thread to challenge me? Let's not be a nuisance to those who would like to read more about COVID-19 here.

Why? Are you feeling the Heat of getting the proper criticizing that you well deserve for promoting Fake "Medicines" that don't work at all instead of getting people to follow the advice of Real Medical Personal and the CDC on what to do to avoid catching Corvid-19?

whm1974 · Sun Mar 22, 2020 10:33 am

Igor_Kavinski wrote:
Vrock wrote:
Igor_Kavinski wrote:
Thank God for the coffee lovers that coffee didn't have to go through the FDA process to be allowed for sale for its many health benefits.
Um...you do know what the "F" in "FDA" stands for, right?

Why would you assume that coffee is food? It gets people addicted to it. People have withdrawal symptoms and headaches if they give up coffee. What food comes to mind that can do that? Coffee is a plant with potent biochemicals. You don't munch on coffee beans for sustenance.

Actually what did you think Turkish Coffee came from? There is even a few a African Tribes that do the same thing.

Igor_Kavinski · Sun Mar 22, 2020 10:38 am

whm1974 wrote:
Igor_Kavinski wrote:
Vrock wrote:
Um...you do know what the "F" in "FDA" stands for, right?

Why would you assume that coffee is food? It gets people addicted to it. People have withdrawal symptoms and headaches if they give up coffee. What food comes to mind that can do that? Coffee is a plant with potent biochemicals. You don't munch on coffee beans for sustenance.

Actually what did you think Turkish Coffee came from? There is even a few a African Tribes that do the same thing.

They used it as a recreational drug AFTER having their fill of food. God forbid anyone who has nothing but coffee to live on. Not sure how long they would survive.

whm1974 · Sun Mar 22, 2020 10:54 am

Igor_Kavinski wrote:
whm1974 wrote:
Igor_Kavinski wrote:

Why would you assume that coffee is food? It gets people addicted to it. People have withdrawal symptoms and headaches if they give up coffee. What food comes to mind that can do that? Coffee is a plant with potent biochemicals. You don't munch on coffee beans for sustenance.

Actually what did you think Turkish Coffee came from? There is even a few a African Tribes that do the same thing.

They used it as a recreational drug AFTER having their fill of food. God forbid anyone who has nothing but coffee to live on. Not sure how long they would survive.

Dude this true of only consuming one food all of the time.

Igor_Kavinski · Sun Mar 22, 2020 11:00 am

whm1974 wrote:
Igor_Kavinski wrote:
whm1974 wrote:
Actually what did you think Turkish Coffee came from? There is even a few a African Tribes that do the same thing.

They used it as a recreational drug AFTER having their fill of food. God forbid anyone who has nothing but coffee to live on. Not sure how long they would survive.

Dude this true of only consuming one food all of the time.

http://www.fao.org/waicent/faoinfo/econ ... def12e.htm

Coffee is a stimulant, not a food crop.

Vrock · Sun Mar 22, 2020 11:09 am

Igor_Kavinski wrote:
Vrock wrote:
Igor_Kavinski wrote:
Thank God for the coffee lovers that coffee didn't have to go through the FDA process to be allowed for sale for its many health benefits.
Um...you do know what the "F" in "FDA" stands for, right?

Why would you assume that coffee is food?

The FDA seems to think it is.

Igor_Kavinski · Sun Mar 22, 2020 11:18 am

Vrock wrote:
Igor_Kavinski wrote:
Vrock wrote:
Um...you do know what the "F" in "FDA" stands for, right?

Why would you assume that coffee is food?
The FDA seems to think it is.

Coz they need their morning fix of coffee to do what they do. They are the authority so they get to decide whatever they want. They have no challengers because he public at large is ignorant and comfy in their ignorance. That's where people like me come in to increase their awareness and change the status quo for the better. FDA and people like me have the same goal in mind (better health), just different ideas on how to achieve that.

Vrock · Sun Mar 22, 2020 11:20 am

In a cage match between you and the FDA, who do you think would win?

whm1974 · Sun Mar 22, 2020 11:21 am

Igor_Kavinski wrote:
Vrock wrote:
Igor_Kavinski wrote:

Why would you assume that coffee is food?
The FDA seems to think it is.

Coz they need their morning fix of coffee to do what they do. They are the authority so they get to decide whatever they want. They have no challengers because he public at large is ignorant and comfy in their ignorance. That's where people like me come in to increase their awareness and change the status quo for the better. FDA and people like me have the same goal in mind (better health), just different ideas on how to achieve that.

**SNORT!!!** I trust the FDA a lot more then You!!! Actually I don't trust You at all when it comes to valid health claims.

whm1974 · Sun Mar 22, 2020 11:22 am

Vrock wrote:
In a cage match between you and the FDA, who do you think would win?

I of course will bet on the FDA as I will win that bet.

Igor_Kavinski · Sun Mar 22, 2020 11:32 am

whm1974 wrote:
**SNORT!!!** I trust the FDA a lot more then You!!! Actually I don't trust You at all when it comes to valid health claims.

The FDA has had its share of destroying lives by approving drugs that later had to be banned after thousands or even millions were affected.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4375804/

Igor_Kavinski · Sun Mar 22, 2020 11:34 am

Vrock wrote:
In a cage match between you and the FDA, who do you think would win?

FDA is not the enemy but they could use more people like me. Unfortunately, their drug overlords will have nothing of that.

whm1974 · Sun Mar 22, 2020 11:36 am

Igor_Kavinski wrote:
whm1974 wrote:
**SNORT!!!** I trust the FDA a lot more then You!!! Actually I don't trust You at all when it comes to valid health claims.

The FDA has had its share of destroying lives by approving drugs that later had to be banned after thousands or even millions were affected.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4375804/

No one is claiming that the FDA is perfect at all. Yes mistakes have been made, but that doesn't mean that Snake Oil peddlers and Quack perform a lot better.

Igor_Kavinski · Sun Mar 22, 2020 11:40 am

whm1974 wrote:
Igor_Kavinski wrote:
whm1974 wrote:
**SNORT!!!** I trust the FDA a lot more then You!!! Actually I don't trust You at all when it comes to valid health claims.

The FDA has had its share of destroying lives by approving drugs that later had to be banned after thousands or even millions were affected.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4375804/

No one is claiming that the FDA is perfect at all. Yes mistakes have been made, but that doesn't mean that Snake Oil peddlers and Quack perform a lot better.

That's unfair. It's not a competition. They complement each other. You must first conclusively prove that the things I have listed do NOT perform or perform adversely for human health. Otherwise, you can't just call the whole natural herbs/plant extracts supplements industry "Snake Oil peddlers and Quack". Not to mention that MOST of the big profitable ones are in your country, the United States of A.

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