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localhostrulez wrote:

Edit edit: I could buy a running/decent condition mid-90's Chrysler LeBaron or Concord for $600 around here. Wow.

Yack. I wouldn't buy a mid-90's Chrysler anything. I'll give you $6.00 to get it out of here.

The Egg wrote:

localhostrulez wrote:

Edit edit: I could buy a running/decent condition mid-90's Chrysler LeBaron or Concord for $600 around here. Wow.

Yack. I wouldn't buy a mid-90's Chrysler anything. I'll give you $6.00 to get it out of here.

That Chrysler will end up costing you more like $3K once you deal with the transmission replacement. (You WILL need to replace the transmission...)

Eh, true. Although to be fair, those aren't always worse - I know a guy whose Dodge Neon has been good, and then a friend has an 01 Odyssey, 125K miles, on its third (yes, seriously) automatic transmission. That particular model/year was known to be horrible in that regard, while Chrysler didn't have many transmission issues at all: http://www.edmunds.com/autoobserver-arc ... maker.html

Of course, I bought a Honda for a reason. (But they DID have some bad years of automatic transmissions, to be honest. Not aware of manual transmission failures from anyone.)

Unless they're doing something really unique or novel, I see things such as widespread transmission failures to be totally inexcusable. The automatic transmission hasn't changed significantly in what, 45 years?

The Egg wrote:

Unless they're doing something really unique or novel, I see things such as widespread transmission failures to be totally inexcusable. The automatic transmission hasn't changed significantly in what, 45 years?

While the underlying tech hasn't changed much, the details have. Modern automatic transmissions have a lot more gears (2-speed was common back in the 1960s and early 1970s, now 6 speed isn't unusual), and a lot more electronics. Increased complexity means more ways for things to fail; and whenever a new generation design is introduced, there's also a chance they simply screwed something up.

Traditional automatic transmissions were planetary gear trains, the Odyssey transmission is more like a manual transmission with hydraulically controlled clutch packs taking the place of syncro rings. In the case of the Odyssey it wasn't so much the transmission itself as the bearings and clutch packs in it shedding too much material. This excess material would eventually clog the hydraulic passages and cause the transmission to fail, sometimes spectacularly if it got a shift wrong at highway speeds.

I had a 2003 Odyssey and Honda paid for a new transmission on it when it was less than 1 year out of warranty. After that I did all the maintenance myself including changing the fluid every 1 year rather than every 2 years, and also replacing the external filter that they claimed didn't need replacing. Transmission worked fine after that.

just brew it! wrote:

While the underlying tech hasn't changed much, the details have. Modern automatic transmissions have a lot more gears (2-speed was common back in the 1960s and early 1970s, now 6 speed isn't unusual), and a lot more electronics. Increased complexity means more ways for things to fail; and whenever a new generation design is introduced, there's also a chance they simply screwed something up.

Yeah, that seems to be the case. The early 7th gen Civics (01-02) and the V6 6th gen Accords (98-02) were known for auto transmission failures as well. Same with the 03-05 Civic Hybrid CVTs. Though as far as I know, they nailed the art of the manual decades ago.

Honda didn't actually change the transmission design for the 2nd gen Odysseys, did they? Just kept replacing bad ones with the same defective design? Notfred, for what it's worth, you have a different transmission - as I recall, the 99-01 4-speed had the issue you're describing, but I thought the 02-04 (same gen Odyssey, but 5-speed) had a different issue.

Edit: You know, this brings up a good point - what's the average lifespan of an automatic transmission? Seems like most of them go to 200K without issues, but I know of a friend's 99 Outback Legacy (140K) that lags when switching to drive (and then there's that Odyssey...).

Edit: Another thought - I've played around with my grandma's 04 Civic a bit (7th gen). And the shifts are really, really smooth on it - I can see it on the tach and I can hear it, but I can't feel it. Shoot, maybe the slipping/smoothness is why those were failure prone. (I.e. Mom has a '11 CR-V, and the shifts are firmer in it; closer to what I do on a manual. Probably better for the trans, since I don't see those CR-Vs failing.)

We just got a new Civic 2016 in Aegean Blue, it's a beauty.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/qdr5cnn50u1wg ... 4.jpg?dl=0

We still have our 2001 Model Civic in Silver though. She's older but she still is running for sure.

Ooh, that's a brighter blue than mine - mine's a little too dark IMO (though it shines in the sun). My grandma has the tan/light coffee-colored 04 sedan - I kinda like it.

Which trim/transmission/engine did you get? The base LX/2.0L non-turbo manual supposedly gets back to the Civic's roots and makes for a lot of fun.

coldpower27 wrote:

We just got a new Civic 2016 in Aegean Blue, it's a beauty.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/qdr5cnn50u1wg ... 4.jpg?dl=0

We still have our 2001 Model Civic in Silver though. She's older but she still is running for sure.

Have you checked up on your 2016 Civic, there was a recall notice posted at the NHTSA.
http://www.carcomplaints.com/Honda/Civic/2016/recalls/

localhostrulez wrote:

Edit: You know, this brings up a good point - what's the average lifespan of an automatic transmission? Seems like most of them go to 200K without issues, but I know of a friend's 99 Outback Legacy (140K) that lags when switching to drive (and then there's that Odyssey...).

The only one I've ever had that died outright was in an early '90s Chrysler minivan (one of their "known to be problematic" transmissions). Of course it died right after the powertrain warranty expired, just past 60K miles.

I've had a couple of other automatic transmissions that developed issues as well, but it was always well past 100K miles, and none of them died outright like the one in the minivan. They remained driveable until the vehicles they were in were retired for other reasons. The most common issue was sluggishness going into gear (typically when shifting into reverse), with cold weather exacerbating the symptoms.

Oh, and on one car I had the transmission develop a fluid leak at around 150K. It was an old beater of a car though, so I ended up carrying a case of transmission fluid and a funnel in the trunk rather than deal with a repair that would've probably cost more than the vehicle was worth. Whenever I felt the transmission starting to slip, I would just pull over and add a quart of fluid.

The transmission in our old Corolla was still going strong three weeks ago, just shy of 200K mikes, when my daughter totaled it.

localhostrulez wrote:

Honda didn't actually change the transmission design for the 2nd gen Odysseys, did they? Just kept replacing bad ones with the same defective design? Notfred, for what it's worth, you have a different transmission - as I recall, the 99-01 4-speed had the issue you're describing, but I thought the 02-04 (same gen Odyssey, but 5-speed) had a different issue.

I think in the 4 speed it was a bearing that shed material and in the 5 speed it was a clutch pack that shed material. Same end result but different cause. They did add some internal oil jets to help spray more fluid around and help cool things down when they were rebuilding the transmissions to replace blown ones, but I don't know how much difference it makes.

That was the only real problem on our 03 Odyssey and so we traded it for a 14 Odyssey. My wife is a percussionist so we need a large minivan for moving tympani, xylophones, marimbas etc.

notfred wrote:

That was the only real problem on our 03 Odyssey and so we traded it for a 14 Odyssey. My wife is a percussionist so we need a large minivan for moving tympani, xylophones, marimbas etc.

Oh, fun!

We will probably definitely not be getting another mini-van when the current one (an '02 Chrysler Town and Country) expires. All of our kids are in their 20s (ack, one just turned 30... I feel OLD...) now, so we generally don't drive the entire family around together any more. And we don't need to haul large percussion instruments.

Edit: FWIW, the '02 TaC has been reasonable (IMO) in terms of reliability. There was an early issue with the fuel pump which was fixed under warranty; a coolant line blew out a few years back; rear wiper mechanism needed replacing; some minor issues with the front suspension and issues with the emission control system (vapor canister, IIRC) in later years; it has started leaking a little oil; and a few other minor issues with accessories (one of the speakers started cutting in and out a few years ago, and the windshield washer pump probably needs to be replaced). But for a vehicle we've owned for 14 years that doesn't seem bad at all.

So that's what I thought - the T&C's/Caravans were actually better cars than the Odysseys back in then. At least yours doesn't eat transmissions every now and then. How many miles does yours have?

I know a guy (music teacher/friend of mine) who hauls around a bass regularly. Did that on the train for a while, now he uses an SUV.

As for my 05 Civic (105K)... from what I can tell, the first owner had it a few years, maintained it, and racked up the majority of the miles in 4 years or so. It was then sold certified/pre-owned (guessing there weren't any issues up to that point) to someone else, who seemingly ignored maintenance a bit. My guess is that idiot idiotically (that's how idiots do ) let the car run out of coolant, because it apparently overheated and died on the freeway at one point. Head gasket was replaced, heads were remachined, engine was basically rebuilt. As far as I can tell, it's fine now (fluid levels are fine and all, runs reliably, temps are normal). Aside from that incident (probably user/lack of maintenance induced), most of the out of the ordinary stuff was fixed under my ownership (although it did get a new clutch back at 30K for some reason, current one has 75k on it and still going strong) - and all in all, I guess it's not too bad for the age.

I'm getting ready to replace the hybrid battery pack in my '05 Civic Hybrid. 200K miles and the original's been nearly dead for almost two years now, just enough oomph left to keep the engine battery charged and occasionally run the electric motor. I bought it from Bumblebee Batteries on the strength of good reviews and that it's supposed to have a higher capacity than stock. Just got here today and I'm trying to decide whether I want to switch it out myself or have a mechanic do it.

localhostrulez wrote:

So that's what I thought - the T&C's/Caravans were actually better cars than the Odysseys back in then. At least yours doesn't eat transmissions every now and then. How many miles does yours have?

I forget exactly. 135K maybe?

Oh, and the rocker panels are rusting out. But it's a 14 year old vehicle in a climate where the roads are heavily salted in the winter.

Ah, makes sense. Harsh winters and salted roads aren't really a thing on the west coast, so cars don't die of rust around here. Not real sure what I think of the new Pacifica though (replacement for the T&C, ignore the SUV of the same name) - the T&C's seem pretty well liked in general, but they put that darn 9-speed transmission on the new one.

As for that Odyssey... oh, did I mention that the throttle body is dirty, known issue on these? (i.e. it uses a throttle cable, and you can't precisely actuate it right now, so I end up jumping between gears while trying to maintain speed in the city) Or that it occasionally sits there stuttering/lugging the engine on idle, when you start it but stay in park for a moment (seems to go away when you put it in drive)? Trying to remember if there's anything else. Although I do love how my Civic never fights me or glitches out - you tell it to do X, it does it (provided it's possible/there's no mechanical issue). Manual gearboxes are nice and dumb.

bthylafh wrote:

I'm getting ready to replace the hybrid battery pack in my '05 Civic Hybrid. 200K miles and the original's been nearly dead for almost two years now, just enough oomph left to keep the engine battery charged and occasionally run the electric motor. I bought it from Bumblebee Batteries on the strength of good reviews and that it's supposed to have a higher capacity than stock. Just got here today and I'm trying to decide whether I want to switch it out myself or have a mechanic do it.

Wait... I'm trying to remember the details (and I'm sleep deprived at the moment), but as I recall, those hybrids didn't have an alternator. That is, they charge the 12V using the high voltage battery. So if that completely goes, once the 12V drains down from normal accessory loads, you're stuck - so you're playing a slightly risky game by not changing the battery. (Or was that the Prius?) But otherwise, those Civic Hybrids run the motor and engine at the same time (can't creep around the parking lot in electric only mode).

Was yours the CVT or the 5-speed manual? I wonder what driving a manual hybrid would be like - stalling, for example. (My dad didn't even know manual hybrids were a thing. And to be fair, I've never seen them outside of a few Hondas.)

Mine's a CVT. Seems pretty problem-free so far.

As to the DC-DC charging, judging by one guide I've read it seems possible to disconnect the hybrid battery and still keep it running, but you have to remember to not let it idle for long or the engine battery will drain, and you also can't rev past 3800 RPM or the hybrid system will overload. Not really worth it.

Can't rev past 3800? Umm, we're talking a Civic here.

Yeah, I'm kinda glad mine's not a hybrid - nice and simple. But, you get much better mpg across the board. Not sure how they managed that (on the highway) with the same chassis and all - the smaller engine?


In other news, my bike just broke down and almost got me run over (I.e. in the middle of an intersection). Still not sure what's going it, it's not the chain, seems to be the rear derailler or the freewheel. I swear, my car has been more reliable than this thing...

Smaller engine plus the electric motor to boost it during acceleration, and the engine shuts off at stoplights. It's still possible to get bad highway mileage if you hoon it, are running a/c and/or have passengers. On my daily commute by myself, the car sometimes got 53 MPG new; when taking the family on the interstate it can get down to the upper 30s.

Really? Wow. My manual LX seems to get 35MPG on the highway no matter what (but I've averaged 38 when I hit 45mph freeway traffic for part of it, so I can probably push it into the 40's if I go slowly enough). Doesn't matter much if I have passengers or not (although the handling/power changes noticeably), and I tend to hit the gas hard on freeway onramps. AC doesn't seem to have a huge impact either, save for raising idle from 600 to 700 (same on the crv).

I think I averaged 36MPG one time, 3 people total in the car, AC off, going a solid 75-80MPH most of the time.

Note that I'm measuring from the gas station and odometer - this car has no MPG counter, unless I can be bothered to use OBDII. I think the hybrid did though.

Speaking of which, does anyone have recommendations for iOS OBDII apps? Or I could use an old Android phone and keep running Torque.

The smaller engine of the Civic hybrid helps reduce pumping losses, but the CVT also helps - it can set the engine for optimum RPM to produce the desired power, minimizing pumping losses further. (Otherwise, you have to rev the engine higher than you'd otherwise have to, and then close the throttle to reduce power.) The big downside of a conventional CVT, as Honda's hybrids use (Honda's exact implementation being a steel pushbelt), is that they're rather lossy.

In addition, hybrids can optimize load in some situations by increasing engine load below a certain minimum to increase efficiency (but it only makes sense if the engine efficiency gain is more than the electrical losses incurred, and only possible when the battery is in the desired range of state of charge).

Also, the reason why Honda/Acura's hybrids (with the exception of the 2014+ Accord and the 2013+ Fit/Vezel Sport Hybrid (not sold in North America)) can run manuals is that they place the electric motor in between the internal combustion engine and the transmission. So, the transmission doesn't actually matter for their setup. (Volkswagen/Audi/Porsche, Hyundai/Kia, newer Nissan/Infiniti, Subaru, newer BMW, most Mercedes, and Volvo hybrids, as well as most heavy-duty hybrid systems in large trucks, use similar layouts (and McLaren and Ferrari (I think - they're definitely using a different layout, but I'm not 100% sure if it behaves similarly) are using different mechanical layouts, but behave similarly), sometimes with different combinations of clutches to enable EV only mode, which the early technology Honda hybrids can't do. However, all of those are using either DCTs, conventional planetary gearboxes, or conventional CVTs, no manuals available.

Toyota/Lexus, Ford/Mercury/Lincoln, the former Nissan Altima hybrid, and the Mazda Axela (3) hybrid in Japan are using a far more clever system, that's inherently a CVT, but it's not a true CVT - it merely uses a planetary gearset and a clever arrangement of electric motors with the ICE. (Some of the Lexus hybrids then use a 2-speed reduction gearbox (or a 4-speed one coming soon) after that, to improve the range of usable speeds and efficient speeds.)

GM has three different hybrid systems.

The first is their "mild hybrid" system, alternately called "BAS" or "eAssist". Basically, it's an extremely beefed up alternator, that also acts as a starter, and under braking becomes a more powerful alternator, the engine shuts down at a stop. Then, when you start going again, it starts the engine, and provides some assistance at the low end to get the vehicle moving again. Frankly, it's pretty lame.

The second is the Voltec system (not the current one) as used on the Gen 1 Volt and the Cadillac ELR. It's an electric motor connected to the wheels, a generator connected to the engine, and a clutch to connect the engine (and its generator) to the wheels. So, at moderate speeds and power demands, or high speeds and high power demands, the engine's connected to the wheels. Any other conditions (low speed, very high speed, or speed mismatched with power demand), the engine disconnects from the wheels, and runs the generator and sends power to the wheels. As an aside, the 2014+ Accord hybrid basically does this as well.

The third is the 2-mode system, of which there's a couple variations. The first variation is one that has a low-speed variable mode, a high-speed variable mode, and a fixed ratio mode, using two planetary gearsets (in addition to anything used for fixed reduction ratios), and is used on an Allison bus transmission, the Gen 2 Volt, and the Malibu Hybrid. Basically, it's a more complex variant of the ideas behind Toyota and Ford's systems, that adds clutches to select the modes. The second variation adds another planetary gearset to get four fixed ratios in addition to the two variable modes, and was used on the GM full-size trucks and SUVs, the Dodge Durango/Chrysler Aspen hybrids, 2010-2011 BMW X6 ActiveHybrid, and 2010-2011 Mercedes ML 450 hybrid.

Then, Honda has a weird dual-clutch hybrid system for the Fit/Vezel, that has had some major reliability issues as I understand: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5MQruMik4FM

Of all the hybrid systems out there, the basic form (without multi-speed reduction gearboxes) of the Toyota/Ford one is IMO the most clever. It's a highly efficient CVT, while being mechanically incredibly simple, and damn effective. The GM 2-mode systems are more clever, but also more complex, which showed up in most of their applications being hideously expensive (especially the RWD variant used in the trucks and SUVs).

Total departure, but yesterday I officially placed my order for an Exocet through Flyin' Miata.

Here's to 10+ weeks of painful waiting to get started!

Well did some more changes to the truck. Replaced the air intake to GM's new CAI system, engine cover and replaced the jumpseat with a console (which they do not offer in regular cabs).







Things left yet to do:

Finish up a final sub-box and amp rack that follows the contours, leather it with the same stitching as the console.
Replace the head unit with a 8" factory one with CarPlay and navigation.
Upgrade the AudioControl DQ-61 to an Audiocontrol DM-608 when available.

I wound up putting the hybrid battery in myself. It was a lot easier than I thought it would be; the hardest part was pulling out the seatback and cushion, and I only needed help with putting in the first couple hold-down bolts after replacing the battery. The car's now back to its old self: the regen brakes work again and it'll shut the engine off at a light reliably. Fuel efficiency didn't go up as much as I thought it would, but there are probably mechanical bits and bobs that don't run as smoothly as they once did.

Waco wrote:

Total departure, but yesterday I officially placed my order for an Exocet through Flyin' Miata.

Here's to 10+ weeks of painful waiting to get started!

Are you expecting to fight off the Royal Navy in the near future?

bthylafh wrote:

I wound up putting the hybrid battery in myself. It was a lot easier than I thought it would be; the hardest part was pulling out the seatback and cushion, and I only needed help with putting in the first couple hold-down bolts after replacing the battery. The car's now back to its old self: the regen brakes work again and it'll shut the engine off at a light reliably. Fuel efficiency didn't go up as much as I thought it would, but there are probably mechanical bits and bobs that don't run as smoothly as they once did.

Where are the batteries on the hybrid? On the regular Civic, you reach in in between the seat cushions, remove a few 10mm bolts (the random stuff is always 10mm on this car), and pop the seats up from under (exposing the fuel pump, dipping into the gas tank). Of course, the rear seats fold down here, but not on the hybrid, so yours could be totally different.

Random thought I had... the average car is 11.5 years old (basically my car, exactly - Jan 2005 or so), and gets 12K miles per year. So, umm, wait... to maintain that average, there are new cars, but there have to be old cars as well. And if 15 years is seen as old, and things rust out in some regions at that point, and some cars get into accidents/otherwise die relatively young... how the hell are we maintaining that average?

Lots of really old cars in southern climates, I guess.

localhostrulez wrote:

Where are the batteries on the hybrid?

Behind the backseat on the driver's side. Here's the guide I used, which was mostly complete:

http://www.prolongima.com/hch/removal/reminst.html

Hmm, that doesn't look bad at all. Probably less painful than the front power door lock actuators on these cars. (Replaced the driver one, it was hell because of a super-torqued Phillips screw. Will have to repeat for the passenger's side at some point. At least the rear doors are easy to do.)