Personal computing discussed

Moderators: renee, Hoser

 
whm1974
Emperor Gerbilius I
Topic Author
Posts: 6361
Joined: Fri Dec 05, 2014 5:29 am

4K on a PS4? Yeah right, when pigs fly.

Thu Mar 24, 2016 7:30 pm

OK I been reading some stuff for a few days about Sony releasing an updated PS4 that can do 4K graphics. What are they smoking? Very high GPUs can barely do new titles at 4K@30FPS right now, so how would a console be able to do it? And come to think of it, how many people even have 4K TVs?

All that Sony will end up doing is pissing off current PS4 owners.
 
ClickClick5
Gerbil Elite
Posts: 581
Joined: Fri Aug 15, 2008 8:28 pm
Location: Alaska
Contact:

Re: 4K on a PS4? Yeah right, when pigs fly.

Thu Mar 24, 2016 7:34 pm

To also be fair, the PS4's entire memory system is GDDR5 at 182GB/s, so this can help, and console games are normally very well tuned to that hardware. Unlike the cornucopia of hardware/drivers for the PC. Would the games be complex like Killzone at 4K? No, not at all. But simpler games, doable. It would take some serious tuning, but it could be done.
i7-5930k (4.1GHz), 32GB DDR4-2400, 2080Ti, GA-X99-UD3, Samsung 860 Pro 256GB (os/programs), Toshiba 5TB (games), WD VelociRaptor 500GB (games/scratch disk), Win 10 Pro x64
Check out my site for trance sets and other goodies! clickclick5.com!
 
whm1974
Emperor Gerbilius I
Topic Author
Posts: 6361
Joined: Fri Dec 05, 2014 5:29 am

Re: 4K on a PS4? Yeah right, when pigs fly.

Thu Mar 24, 2016 7:41 pm

Sony will have to come out with a next generation console in order to do 4K. And probably even then they would lucky to do 1080p@60fps...
 
maxxcool
Gerbil Elite
Posts: 855
Joined: Thu Sep 12, 2002 8:40 am
Location: %^&*%$$
Contact:

Re: 4K on a PS4? Yeah right, when pigs fly.

Thu Mar 24, 2016 10:20 pm

As always the details are missing such as the fact that they will auto adjust the detail and texture settings on the fly to make sure that that frame rate is sort of attainable in games with low texture resolution or generic textures that are easily copied from object to object...
Cybert said: Capitlization and periods are hard for you, aren't they? I've given over $100 to techforums. I should have you banned for my money.
 
Zoomastigophora
Gerbil Elite
Posts: 667
Joined: Tue Nov 11, 2008 7:10 pm

Re: 4K on a PS4? Yeah right, when pigs fly.

Thu Mar 24, 2016 11:45 pm

If you render interlaced, it's only 2x the cost of 1080p instead of 4x ;)
 
synthtel2
Gerbil Elite
Posts: 956
Joined: Mon Nov 16, 2015 10:30 am

Re: 4K on a PS4? Yeah right, when pigs fly.

Fri Mar 25, 2016 12:45 am

maxxcool wrote:
As always the details are missing such as the fact that they will auto adjust the detail and texture settings on the fly to make sure that that frame rate is sort of attainable in games with low texture resolution or generic textures that are easily copied from object to object...


Dynamic detail takes non-trivial effort from devs, it's not something Sony can just tack on.

Tradeoffs like resolution vs fps vs all the other stuff tend to be left to devs. Admittedly they mess it up pretty often IMO, but what's Sony going to do? Say "stuff built for this has to run at 4K"? In the absence of that, devs are going to tack on more features over time and have to reduce resolution to compensate (I would have sworn there was an xkcd on this, but I can't seem to find it), as long as resolution is basically acceptable. 4K is quite a bit beyond basically acceptable, and I can't see it staying 4K for more than about 5 minutes with any hardware they could actually sell at a console-ish price. I think performance would need to be a step or two beyond Fiji to avoid this effect, and even then I find it questionable.

The only way I can imagine this working at all is if they actually think they can do proper VR, in which case the pixel-per-second requirements for VR and 4K aren't actually so far off as all that, but do they really think most devs are going to keep the same settings between those two extremes? 4K and VR have some different requirements to look good and run fast. With VR, you need to really make the most of every pixel because they're so big. AA is critical, and not just against geometry. With 4K it doesn't matter so much, and you could be putting that render time into fancier lighting or some such.... and now you've got different render pipelines anyway, and why were we restricting ourselves to 4K again? This game will look better if we drop to 1440p and go crazy on the lighting when we're not doing VR. Yeah.

If they're thinking 14nm, then they might just about be able to cram something VR-capable with 3072+ SPs (compensating for clocks) into a console die.... but that's not going to be cheap, especially if they want to release this anytime soon.
 
whm1974
Emperor Gerbilius I
Topic Author
Posts: 6361
Joined: Fri Dec 05, 2014 5:29 am

Re: 4K on a PS4? Yeah right, when pigs fly.

Fri Mar 25, 2016 3:53 am

Are there enough folks that own 4K TVs for Sony to have a market for a 4K console?
 
NoOne ButMe
Gerbil Elite
Posts: 707
Joined: Fri May 15, 2015 9:31 pm

Re: 4K on a PS4? Yeah right, when pigs fly.

Fri Mar 25, 2016 5:20 am

PS4 is capable of outputting 4K. All it would take is an output which supported 4K.

As for being able to do 4K in rendering, the PS4 could get over 50% performance with increasing power draw. An updated PS4 (assume all AMD for logic) with 8C8T Zen and a larger higher clocked GPU with architecture update hitting 3+ performance increase and allowing for 4K30fps is possible.
currently running: Clevo W230SD, i7-4710MQ, 1TB SSD, 960m, win10 Pro + 1 HP Pavilion 22XI monitor and sometimes a 1080p 32" Vizio TV.
 
odizzido
Gerbil Team Leader
Posts: 211
Joined: Fri May 06, 2005 6:10 am

Re: 4K on a PS4? Yeah right, when pigs fly.

Fri Mar 25, 2016 5:40 am

Yeah it's not going to happen...at least not in a way that's worth it. They would need to turn down details a huge amount or have games run even more poorly than they currently do.
 
whm1974
Emperor Gerbilius I
Topic Author
Posts: 6361
Joined: Fri Dec 05, 2014 5:29 am

Re: 4K on a PS4? Yeah right, when pigs fly.

Fri Mar 25, 2016 7:56 am

NoOne ButMe wrote:
PS4 is capable of outputting 4K. All it would take is an output which supported 4K.

As for being able to do 4K in rendering, the PS4 could get over 50% performance with increasing power draw. An updated PS4 (assume all AMD for logic) with 8C8T Zen and a larger higher clocked GPU with architecture update hitting 3+ performance increase and allowing for 4K30fps is possible.

I highly doubt that even with a 3x performance improvement that the new PS4.5 will be able to do worthwhile 4K.
 
I.S.T.
Gerbil XP
Posts: 486
Joined: Wed Sep 14, 2005 5:18 am

Re: 4K on a PS4? Yeah right, when pigs fly.

Fri Mar 25, 2016 8:03 am

Wouldn't be surprised if it's just putting in an upscaler/4K Blu-Ray drive.
 
whm1974
Emperor Gerbilius I
Topic Author
Posts: 6361
Joined: Fri Dec 05, 2014 5:29 am

Re: 4K on a PS4? Yeah right, when pigs fly.

Fri Mar 25, 2016 8:09 am

I.S.T. wrote:
Wouldn't be surprised if it's just putting in an upscaler/4K Blu-Ray drive.

That will be much more likely.
 
derFunkenstein
Gerbil God
Posts: 25427
Joined: Fri Feb 21, 2003 9:13 pm
Location: Comin' to you directly from the Mothership

Re: 4K on a PS4? Yeah right, when pigs fly.

Fri Mar 25, 2016 8:11 am

The most plausible explanation is that the PS4 will be updated with an HDMI 2.0 so that it can play back 4K media (and, possibly, the 4K BD-ROM as I.S.T. said), but game resolution will stay the same.
I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do.
Twittering away the day at @TVsBen
 
ClickClick5
Gerbil Elite
Posts: 581
Joined: Fri Aug 15, 2008 8:28 pm
Location: Alaska
Contact:

Re: 4K on a PS4? Yeah right, when pigs fly.

Sat Mar 26, 2016 7:33 am

Remember now, even the PS2 could do 1080. I only came across one game that would run in 1080, but it was Atari: Anthology...not hard to draw a pink line. So the PS4 could to 4K. But not in the sense we are thinking (aka, Assassins Creed in 4K).
i7-5930k (4.1GHz), 32GB DDR4-2400, 2080Ti, GA-X99-UD3, Samsung 860 Pro 256GB (os/programs), Toshiba 5TB (games), WD VelociRaptor 500GB (games/scratch disk), Win 10 Pro x64
Check out my site for trance sets and other goodies! clickclick5.com!
 
whm1974
Emperor Gerbilius I
Topic Author
Posts: 6361
Joined: Fri Dec 05, 2014 5:29 am

Re: 4K on a PS4? Yeah right, when pigs fly.

Sat Mar 26, 2016 7:43 am

ClickClick5 wrote:
Remember now, even the PS2 could do 1080. I only came across one game that would run in 1080, but it was Atari: Anthology...not hard to draw a pink line. So the PS4 could to 4K. But not in the sense we are thinking (aka, Assassins Creed in 4K).

Unless there is a major breakthrough, Sony will be lucky to have real 4K by the time the PS6 come out.
 
Vhalidictes
Gerbil Jedi
Posts: 1835
Joined: Fri Jan 07, 2005 2:32 pm
Location: Paragon City, RI

Re: 4K on a PS4? Yeah right, when pigs fly.

Thu May 05, 2016 5:37 pm

whm1974 wrote:
ClickClick5 wrote:
Remember now, even the PS2 could do 1080. I only came across one game that would run in 1080, but it was Atari: Anthology...not hard to draw a pink line. So the PS4 could to 4K. But not in the sense we are thinking (aka, Assassins Creed in 4K).

Unless there is a major breakthrough, Sony will be lucky to have real 4K by the time the PS6 come out.


That's probably true, but it's possible that the PS4 refresh will be Polaris-based and could do 2k upscaled to 4k for a decently detailed game.

I imagine that texture storage / game size is a bigger problem for consoles than the graphical grunt needed...
 
whm1974
Emperor Gerbilius I
Topic Author
Posts: 6361
Joined: Fri Dec 05, 2014 5:29 am

Re: 4K on a PS4? Yeah right, when pigs fly.

Thu May 05, 2016 6:30 pm

Vhalidictes wrote:
whm1974 wrote:
ClickClick5 wrote:
Remember now, even the PS2 could do 1080. I only came across one game that would run in 1080, but it was Atari: Anthology...not hard to draw a pink line. So the PS4 could to 4K. But not in the sense we are thinking (aka, Assassins Creed in 4K).

Unless there is a major breakthrough, Sony will be lucky to have real 4K by the time the PS6 come out.


That's probably true, but it's possible that the PS4 refresh will be Polaris-based and could do 2k upscaled to 4k for a decently detailed game.

I imagine that texture storage / game size is a bigger problem for consoles than the graphical grunt needed...

Oh yes. And another barrier is keeping the price of a 4K gaming console within reason.
 
whm1974
Emperor Gerbilius I
Topic Author
Posts: 6361
Joined: Fri Dec 05, 2014 5:29 am

Re: 4K on a PS4? Yeah right, when pigs fly.

Sat May 14, 2016 10:36 am

Well According to a French company, the PS4K is going to be released in late Sept as the PlayStation 4 Neo:
http://www.guru3d.com/news-story/playst ... ember.html
Of note:

That last bit is interesting as next-gen obviously suggests a new architecture and thus that in fact could be Polaris. A Neo SoC would be far cheaper and easier to make the custom SoC with a 28nm fab though. But granted the 36 next-gen GCN compute units (x 64 stream processors per cluster) sound very familiar and close to Polaris10 "Ellesmere" chip with a stream processor count of 2304, double over the 1152 from the current PlayStation 4.

Even if true I still doubt that it will play games at 4k...
 
ClickClick5
Gerbil Elite
Posts: 581
Joined: Fri Aug 15, 2008 8:28 pm
Location: Alaska
Contact:

Re: 4K on a PS4? Yeah right, when pigs fly.

Wed Oct 19, 2016 6:07 pm

whm1974 wrote:
Well According to a French company, the PS4K is going to be released in late Sept as the PlayStation 4 Neo:
http://www.guru3d.com/news-story/playst ... ember.html
Of note:

That last bit is interesting as next-gen obviously suggests a new architecture and thus that in fact could be Polaris. A Neo SoC would be far cheaper and easier to make the custom SoC with a 28nm fab though. But granted the 36 next-gen GCN compute units (x 64 stream processors per cluster) sound very familiar and close to Polaris10 "Ellesmere" chip with a stream processor count of 2304, double over the 1152 from the current PlayStation 4.

Even if true I still doubt that it will play games at 4k...

Now that we have details, I believe their 4K scheme is probably just an upscale. It can't do full 4K@60, there is jut no way. Microsoft is trying with their Scorpio, but still... 
i7-5930k (4.1GHz), 32GB DDR4-2400, 2080Ti, GA-X99-UD3, Samsung 860 Pro 256GB (os/programs), Toshiba 5TB (games), WD VelociRaptor 500GB (games/scratch disk), Win 10 Pro x64
Check out my site for trance sets and other goodies! clickclick5.com!
 
sweatshopking
Graphmaster Gerbil
Posts: 1464
Joined: Fri Aug 15, 2008 10:37 am

Re: 4K on a PS4? Yeah right, when pigs fly.

Wed Oct 19, 2016 6:59 pm

it is upscaled. they've confirmed that games will all be upscaled. Microsoft has committed to native 4k for all in house software. Have to see how it plays out.
 
synthtel2
Gerbil Elite
Posts: 956
Joined: Mon Nov 16, 2015 10:30 am

Re: 4K on a PS4? Yeah right, when pigs fly.

Sat Apr 01, 2017 1:58 am

It turns out to be quite a bit more interesting than the average upscale. It's old news now, but I haven't heard of it yet on TR and this thread just came to mind, so....

The idea is to basically render every other pixel in a checkerboard pattern, alternate the rendered pixels each frame, and interpolate to full res using some temporal AA techniques. The general concept has been around at least since Dust 514 (a pioneering game in temporal AA in general), but this looks like a much better implementation than any other I've seen so far (so long as a 2:1 ratio is the goal). The implementation has some wonkiness related to pixels being 2:1 aspect ratio rectangles instead of squares, but it turns out to be easier to work with than I would have guessed, and the PS4 Pro apparently has some dedicated stuff to make it even easier.

It isn't *really* 4K of course, but it's a much better imitation of it than I thought they'd be able to pull off.
 
LostCat
Minister of Gerbil Affairs
Posts: 2107
Joined: Thu Aug 26, 2004 6:18 am
Location: Earth

Re: 4K on a PS4? Yeah right, when pigs fly.

Sat Apr 01, 2017 2:31 am

Just wondering how much Scorpio will cost. I doubt I'll be able to use it before I get a 4k screen tho (1440p is apparently not loved outside of PCs, even though it should be.)
Meow.
 
whm1974
Emperor Gerbilius I
Topic Author
Posts: 6361
Joined: Fri Dec 05, 2014 5:29 am

Re: 4K on a PS4? Yeah right, when pigs fly.

Sat Apr 01, 2017 7:35 am

LostCat wrote:
Just wondering how much Scorpio will cost. I doubt I'll be able to use it before I get a 4k screen tho (1440p is apparently not loved outside of PCs, even though it should be.)

Well Microsoft did say it is going to be a high end product. If it is capable of 4K(even barely) we can reasonably expect that it will be more expensive then the Xbox One was at launch.
 
LostCat
Minister of Gerbil Affairs
Posts: 2107
Joined: Thu Aug 26, 2004 6:18 am
Location: Earth

Re: 4K on a PS4? Yeah right, when pigs fly.

Sat Apr 01, 2017 7:38 am

whm1974 wrote:
Well Microsoft did say it is going to be a high end product. If it is capable of 4K(even barely) we can reasonably expect that it will be more expensive then the Xbox One was at launch.

They also said it was going to be priced as a console, and the original X1 included Kinect. I'm expecting 450 or below. It's impossible to say right now.
Meow.
 
whm1974
Emperor Gerbilius I
Topic Author
Posts: 6361
Joined: Fri Dec 05, 2014 5:29 am

Re: 4K on a PS4? Yeah right, when pigs fly.

Sat Apr 01, 2017 9:19 am

LostCat wrote:
whm1974 wrote:
Well Microsoft did say it is going to be a high end product. If it is capable of 4K(even barely) we can reasonably expect that it will be more expensive then the Xbox One was at launch.

They also said it was going to be priced as a console, and the original X1 included Kinect. I'm expecting 450 or below. It's impossible to say right now.

I wouldn't be surprised if the Scorpio is priced at $600 to $700 at launch plus the cost of a 4K TV if the buyer doesn't already have one yet.
 
LostCat
Minister of Gerbil Affairs
Posts: 2107
Joined: Thu Aug 26, 2004 6:18 am
Location: Earth

Re: 4K on a PS4? Yeah right, when pigs fly.

Sat Apr 01, 2017 9:30 am

whm1974 wrote:
I wouldn't be surprised if the Scorpio is priced at $600 to $700 at launch plus the cost of a 4K TV if the buyer doesn't already have one yet.

That'd be pricing it as a PC, not as a console.
Meow.
 
jihadjoe
Gerbil Elite
Posts: 835
Joined: Mon Dec 06, 2010 11:34 am

Re: 4K on a PS4? Yeah right, when pigs fly.

Sat Apr 01, 2017 10:04 am

If the performance is there a high price is cool. The PS3 launched at $600, but many people considered it good value because both the CPU and GPU were comparable to top-end PCs of it's time, hence all of the supercomputing projects, linux port and trade embargo. The GPU IIRC was basically an Nvidia 7800GTX.
 
derFunkenstein
Gerbil God
Posts: 25427
Joined: Fri Feb 21, 2003 9:13 pm
Location: Comin' to you directly from the Mothership

Re: 4K on a PS4? Yeah right, when pigs fly.

Sat Apr 01, 2017 10:48 am

I think the ceiling on a console is $500. The Xbone didn't flop because of its $500 price and the PS4 being priced lower - it flopped because on top of all that, games ran better on the PS4 to boot. If it performed better and cost more, and if the gap was noticeable (as it was at Xbone/PS4 launch) then I think it would have gone the other way easily.

The NES was $199 at launch, which is like $465 in today dollars. The PS1 was $299 and that's $475 today. Consoles can succeed at that price if they have the goods.

Gamestop had a deal a little while back (early Feburary) where if you had their "pro card" discount thing, you could get $50 off any new console and $25 extra credit when trading in one of the current-gen systems. I traded in my PS4 for a PS4 Pro and had to kick in around $80, including the $15 "pro" membnership. The thing about PS4 Pro games is that along with supporting higher resolutions, some of them include high-framerate 1080p modes, too. MLB The Show 17 does this, and it's joyful. And since it's a PS4 exclusive, it seemed worth it. I can't upgrade my graphics card performance by ~80% (even selling the GTX 970 in my Skylake box) for $80.
I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do.
Twittering away the day at @TVsBen
 
whm1974
Emperor Gerbilius I
Topic Author
Posts: 6361
Joined: Fri Dec 05, 2014 5:29 am

Re: 4K on a PS4? Yeah right, when pigs fly.

Sat Apr 01, 2017 10:50 am

LostCat wrote:
whm1974 wrote:
I wouldn't be surprised if the Scorpio is priced at $600 to $700 at launch plus the cost of a 4K TV if the buyer doesn't already have one yet.

That'd be pricing it as a PC, not as a console.

jihadjoe wrote:
If the performance is there a high price is cool. The PS3 launched at $600, but many people considered it good value because both the CPU and GPU were comparable to top-end PCs of it's time, hence all of the supercomputing projects, linux port and trade embargo. The GPU IIRC was basically an Nvidia 7800GTX.

Hardware that can do games at real 4K isn't cheap, especially at 60+ frames per second. And I doubt it will be that much cheaper by the end of the year. Even with a $600 to $700 price tag Microsoft will be losing quite a bit of money per Scorpio sold.
 
LostCat
Minister of Gerbil Affairs
Posts: 2107
Joined: Thu Aug 26, 2004 6:18 am
Location: Earth

Re: 4K on a PS4? Yeah right, when pigs fly.

Sun Apr 02, 2017 7:20 am

whm1974 wrote:
Hardware that can do games at real 4K isn't cheap, especially at 60+ frames per second. And I doubt it will be that much cheaper by the end of the year. Even with a $600 to $700 price tag Microsoft will be losing quite a bit of money per Scorpio sold.

I'm just going by what Phil Spencer said. Tried to find a link but Twitter was acting up and meh.
Meow.

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest
GZIP: On