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LostCat
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HDR gaming

Fri Jul 21, 2017 12:16 am

This stuff is mighty confusing.

My TV likes 1440p, except when it doesn't?
Is that because of the HDR modes or no?
Wait, there's a premium certified HDMI cable standard for it?
And Displayport supports dynamic metadata and HDMI doesn't yet?
Why does my screens brightness seem so off if I leave it be? (This is easy enough to fix with my config, but I can't tell what's causing it...and judging by the rest of the internet it's not uncommon.)

Looks good when it works and I'm not planning on ever going back.
But yikes. It seems like the ecosystem still needs a lot of work.
And now I'm no longer primarily a PC gamer. *shrug*
 
whm1974
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Re: HDR gaming

Fri Jul 21, 2017 12:34 am

LostCat wrote:
This stuff is mighty confusing.

My TV likes 1440p, except when it doesn't?
Is that because of the HDR modes or no?
Wait, there's a premium certified HDMI cable standard for it?
And Displayport supports dynamic metadata and HDMI doesn't yet?
Why does my screens brightness seem so off if I leave it be? (This is easy enough to fix with my config, but I can't tell what's causing it...and judging by the rest of the internet it's not uncommon.)

Looks good when it works and I'm not planning on ever going back.
But yikes. It seems like the ecosystem still needs a lot of work.

4K TVs only have been out for about three years now and wasn't standardized until maybe a year ago IIRC. And my understanding is that quite a new TVs still don't fully support the standards. You really have to double check everything before you buy.
 
LostCat
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Re: HDR gaming

Fri Jul 21, 2017 1:06 pm

whm1974 wrote:
You really have to double check everything before you buy.

I wasn't really planning on using this TV as a monitor so yeah usually.

Still trying to decide if I want to get an actual monitor that badly (had ordered a new one but it was backordered so I cancelled the order. Which...hasn't gone through yet either, so we'll see.)
And now I'm no longer primarily a PC gamer. *shrug*
 
LostCat
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Re: HDR gaming

Fri Jul 21, 2017 1:11 pm

Shacknews on the scene...too bad I didn't see this earlier :) (Though it's not exactly amazing in breadth of content, still would've been nice.)
Best 4K TVs for PC gamers
And now I'm no longer primarily a PC gamer. *shrug*
 
whm1974
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Re: HDR gaming

Fri Jul 21, 2017 1:32 pm

LostCat wrote:
Shacknews on the scene...too bad I didn't see this earlier :) (Though it's not exactly amazing in breadth of content, still would've been nice.)
Best 4K TVs for PC gamers

From reading the article it seems that with $K at least, TVs have made some improvements in being used as a PC display.
 
LostCat
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Re: HDR gaming

Sat Jul 22, 2017 4:32 pm

Through my receiver I apparently need the premium cables or sommat. I was setting it to 60hz and it'd just reset to 30 right away.

Yeesh. I give up, for now I'll just go back to my old setup (PC with monitor and Atmos receiver, consoles with TV in other room.)

I still think that 32" CHG70 I cancelled the order on looks awesome, but I really don't spend over $400 on anything usually.
And now I'm no longer primarily a PC gamer. *shrug*
 
LostCat
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Re: HDR gaming

Thu Jul 27, 2017 12:13 pm

The receiver I have is fantastic in every audio related way, but it doesn't really work with HDR. (Still 30.)

So I really don't like audio over HDMI anymore but there isn't really a better way if you want uncompressed multichannel audio from multiple sources.

I've got a new receiver on the way, but if I ever have to do anything like this again I'm going to downgrade my audio expectations massively. This was easily the most irritating upgrade process of my life and I probably should've just stuck with SDR stuff for another year or two. Live and learn eh?

I'm sure eventually I'll learn something, anyway.
And now I'm no longer primarily a PC gamer. *shrug*
 
LostCat
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Re: HDR gaming

Sun Aug 13, 2017 1:09 pm

Well, with my current kit (even with the new receiver) this is all not really worth it. The TV doesn't respond well to certain apps (be this a driver/win10 thing or just the TV I got....I have no idea) so is best used with consoles. (It also doesn't do 1440p@60hz, which is around the sweet spot for quality and perf with my hardware.)

For now it was fun to try but I'll wait til the kinks are worked out or something. Maybe next year.
And now I'm no longer primarily a PC gamer. *shrug*
 
CScottG
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Re: HDR gaming

Sun Aug 13, 2017 3:05 pm

LTT has a really good video on this subject (..even though the focus is supposedly on the monitor being reviewed):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Caz8ThPBa60
 
LostCat
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Re: HDR gaming

Sun Aug 13, 2017 9:55 pm

It was a great screen though. I get the feeling HDR screens have a bigger focus on contrast and quality than SDR ones do (unless you pay for the higher end stuff.)

If I could use it without the extra hassle, I definitely would.
And now I'm no longer primarily a PC gamer. *shrug*
 
LostCat
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Re: HDR gaming

Tue Sep 26, 2017 2:46 am

Apparently NVs latest drivers fixed an issue with HDR that's pretty important
https://us.download.nvidia.com/Windows/ ... -notes.pdf
- HDR TV/displays have distorted colors after changing the resolution from the Windows control panel [200335229]

Another happy note, my 32CHG70 coming today apparently will accept a 4K input and downsample, and since some games and platforms are dumb about only offering 1080p or 4K that's awesome.
And now I'm no longer primarily a PC gamer. *shrug*
 
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Re: HDR gaming

Tue Sep 26, 2017 3:50 am

Given the state of HDR monitors and how 4K HDR TVs are maturing, I'm seriously considering going to a 4K HDR TV as my next monitor for my PC.

I don't think I'll be needing an extremely high refresh rate for any purposes (though I suppose TVs that have a 1080p120 mode are a nice bonus), nor do I find a real need for adaptive sync tech yet. A 4K HDR TV seems to make a heck of a lot of sense, not just for HDR gaming, but for general purpose and videos - good upscaling, post-processing and accurate 24 Hz display would come in very handy for the latter.

Wall-mounting the TV would also reduce the space needed for the setup, leaving me quite a bit more desk space; as is the removal of my current speaker setup - I think most TVs have fairly acceptable stock audio, so there's even less space used.

Disclaimer: I've never been able to properly compare 4K HDR with 4K SDR yet. Showroom conditions tend to make things a bit fuzzy, especially when all TVs are in HDR mode.
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LostCat
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Re: HDR gaming

Tue Sep 26, 2017 4:09 am

Noinoi wrote:
I think most TVs have fairly acceptable stock audio, so there's even less space used.

It kinda depends what your definition of acceptable is. I didn't find them terrible on mine, but I had to have the audio much louder than I usually do to hear things clearly.

I preferred having my headphones on.

I wouldn't use it for serious music listening or gaming, but for general use it's fine.
And now I'm no longer primarily a PC gamer. *shrug*
 
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Re: HDR gaming

Tue Sep 26, 2017 6:11 am

Isn't the problem with TVs input lag? - Even the fastest TVs reviewed specifically for low input lag had 25+ms of lag or so, which is atrocious.

I haven't read an article from 2017, I think the last time I was interested in replacing a monitor with a TV was last year.
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Noinoi
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Re: HDR gaming

Tue Sep 26, 2017 6:25 am

LostCat wrote:
Noinoi wrote:
I think most TVs have fairly acceptable stock audio, so there's even less space used.

It kinda depends what your definition of acceptable is. I didn't find them terrible on mine, but I had to have the audio much louder than I usually do to hear things clearly.

I preferred having my headphones on.

I wouldn't use it for serious music listening or gaming, but for general use it's fine.


It's just one of the things that I'd do to save space and reducing back wire clutter. I'm not really into critical listening, just there to have fun usually.

Chrispy_ wrote:
Isn't the problem with TVs input lag? - Even the fastest TVs reviewed specifically for low input lag had 25+ms of lag or so, which is atrocious.

I haven't read an article from 2017, I think the last time I was interested in replacing a monitor with a TV was last year.


I suspect even PC monitors probably have a slight amount of lag that probably will never go away - I think . It seems like a decent TV (even not specifically looking for gaming chops, at least on the Sony aisle) should be able to stay within 40 ms, staying closer to 33 ms usually while within game/graphics mode. 33 ms feels like it'd be imperceptible if nothing else in the chain is adding too much lag.

Without something dedicated to test, it probably is nigh impossible to check the actual input lag by the numbers. I could certainly hook up my laptop to the living room TV as a quick test to see if an older model we have is within the acceptable range inside and outside low-input lag modes to make an educated guess.
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LostCat
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Re: HDR gaming

Tue Sep 26, 2017 3:15 pm

Hmm. Gal Gun and Mankind Divided still react badly when HDR mode is on. One in full screen mangles the display output and it doesn't recover like it's supposed to, the other crashes a bit more gracefully.

Mankind Divided had an HDR patch on PS4P and X1S so I wonder what that's about.

Easy fix of course is to turn off HDR in Windows before running them.
And now I'm no longer primarily a PC gamer. *shrug*
 
LostCat
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Re: HDR gaming

Tue Sep 26, 2017 4:54 pm

Side note:
Yes, with Windows 10 if you turn on HDR on some monitors things look dimmer. Assumedly, in case of mixed SDR and HDR content so things don't go out of wack. I assume they're still working on it, but either way if it bothers you you can just turn it off and still enable it in the games fine.

Personally, I find it a bit easier on the eyes at the moment.
Last edited by LostCat on Tue Sep 26, 2017 8:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
And now I'm no longer primarily a PC gamer. *shrug*
 
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Re: HDR gaming

Tue Sep 26, 2017 5:59 pm

Chrispy_ wrote:
Even the fastest TVs reviewed specifically for low input lag had 25+ms of lag or so

Fast ones are ~20ms. Fastest <15ms:
http://www.rtings.com/tv/tests/inputs/input-lag
(Previous year models require more digging in that site.)
 
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Re: HDR gaming

Wed Sep 27, 2017 4:50 am

So basically: HDR gaming on PC is still mostly broke, and on consoles with TV's it's 'getting there'.

I've mostly written it off until we get TV's actually conforming to, rather than just supporting, HDR standards.

And I'll probably just wait for G-Sync HDR to hit for desktop HDR, because then I know that input lag and response times and so on will be done correctly. Unless of course AMD pulls a rabbit out of their hat and manages to make next year's games run at 4k120, but that'd be double the performance they're at today...
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Chrispy_
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Re: HDR gaming

Wed Sep 27, 2017 9:14 am

Noinoi wrote:
I suspect even PC monitors probably have a slight amount of lag that probably will never go away - I think . It seems like a decent TV (even not specifically looking for gaming chops, at least on the Sony aisle) should be able to stay within 40 ms, staying closer to 33 ms usually while within game/graphics mode. 33 ms feels like it'd be imperceptible if nothing else in the chain is adding too much lag.


Topionio has posted that fast TV's (new models, I guess) are ~20ms.

That's still too high. Decent gaming monitors have input lag (measured) of zero, other gaming monitors have lag in the <5ms region. Here's a selection of monitors with input lag data from http://www.TFTcentral.co.uk, where the green bar is input lag, and the red part of the bar is pixel response:

Image

They class input lag into three categories:
Class 1) <16ms = good for gaming
Class 2) 16 - 32ms = moderate lag but should but okay for casual gaming
Class 3) >32ms = noticeable lag in daily usage, not suitable for gaming

32ms doesn't sound like a lot, but when I notice that a movie I've encoded isn't lip-syncing properly, I need to adjust the audio delay in +/- 5ms increments because even 5ms out is still very obviously out of sync! Humans are far more sensitive to latency and lag than they realise - just because your reaction reflexes are about 180ms doesn't mean you can't accurately time and judge things down to a couple of miliseconds.
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Noinoi
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Re: HDR gaming

Wed Sep 27, 2017 9:28 am

Chrispy_ wrote:
Noinoi wrote:
I suspect even PC monitors probably have a slight amount of lag that probably will never go away - I think . It seems like a decent TV (even not specifically looking for gaming chops, at least on the Sony aisle) should be able to stay within 40 ms, staying closer to 33 ms usually while within game/graphics mode. 33 ms feels like it'd be imperceptible if nothing else in the chain is adding too much lag.


Topionio has posted that fast TV's (new models, I guess) are ~20ms.

That's still too high. Decent gaming monitors have input lag (measured) of zero, other gaming monitors have lag in the <5ms region. Here's a selection of monitors with input lag data from http://www.TFTcentral.co.uk, where the green bar is input lag, and the red part of the bar is pixel response:

Image

They class input lag into three categories:
Class 1) <16ms = good for gaming
Class 2) 16 - 32ms = moderate lag but should but okay for casual gaming
Class 3) >32ms = noticeable lag in daily usage, not suitable for gaming

32ms doesn't sound like a lot, but when I notice that a movie I've encoded isn't lip-syncing properly, I need to adjust the audio delay in +/- 5ms increments because even 5ms out is still very obviously out of sync! Humans are far more sensitive to latency and lag than they realise - just because your reaction reflexes are about 180ms doesn't mean you can't accurately time and judge things down to a couple of miliseconds.


These appear to be using different tools for measuring lag compared to RTings, so values might not be directly comparable.
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LostCat
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Re: HDR gaming

Wed Sep 27, 2017 9:58 am

Airmantharp wrote:
So basically: HDR gaming on PC is still mostly broke, and on consoles with TV's it's 'getting there'.

It actually works fine in games that actually use HDR. Just using it on the desktop/full time is a questionable enterprise.
And now I'm no longer primarily a PC gamer. *shrug*
 
cynan
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Re: HDR gaming

Wed Sep 27, 2017 10:41 am

Noinoi wrote:
Given the state of HDR monitors and how 4K HDR TVs are maturing, I'm seriously considering going to a 4K HDR TV as my next monitor for my PC.

I don't think I'll be needing an extremely high refresh rate for any purposes (though I suppose TVs that have a 1080p120 mode are a nice bonus).


Last I checked, no TVs accepted over 60Hz input signal for 4k. Though there are some that do so at 1080p.
 
LostCat
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Re: HDR gaming

Wed Sep 27, 2017 2:59 pm

cynan wrote:
Last I checked, no TVs accepted over 60Hz input signal for 4k. Though there are some that do so at 1080p.

They didn't say input. Many TVs will take a 60hz input and turn it into 120.

I'm happy my new 32CHG70 (a 1440p@144hz monitor) will take a 4K signal over HDMI and downscale it, and it looks great :) Finally have all my kit using one screen and audio setup.
And now I'm no longer primarily a PC gamer. *shrug*

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