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matnath1
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Half FPS vs Gaming Site's I7 4790 with GTX 1070 WHY?

Thu Dec 20, 2018 11:15 pm

It has been a very long time since I have put up a question. I have reduced my "readership" considerably after Scott went to AMD...


I have a Dell XPS 8700 with Intel i7 4790 (stock) 16GB Ram Nvidia GTX 1070 (tested with three different 1070 cards to rule out card damage) 1TB 7,200 HD (Dell stock) 256GB SSD (again Dell config'd) Dell stock 480w PSU . 40in 4k hdtv. I have been using this Mid-Tower as is for about 3 years swapping in graphics cards here and there after cashing in on the crypto BOOM (sold them for double paid back than b4 the bubble burst). I just had 2 GTX 1070 cards sent in via eBAy purchased... The sellers both say they were not used for crypto mining. BOTH of these cards result in only 30 FPS avg in Far Cry 5 @ 1440p Ultra settings. It is commonly "preached" that the CPU can not be the bottleneck YET all major sites with coffee lake i7 16gb ram etc show double or 60 FPS at these settings. My DDR3 is @ 1600 stock I do not over clock or tweak anything.. The one constant I can say is that my folding @ home PPD are still exactly the same at 550,000 Points per day running 24/7 I am NOT Folding while gaming. Win 10 Pro 64 is my OS.
Also ran Rise of TR 1440p 30 FPS Very high dx 12 no hair upgrade no tessallation... New ASSN CREED Odyssey 24 fps 4K in bench settings.. WTF?

What could this be? I have not done a fresh install in the 3 years for fear of losing critcal data. I have also run GTX 1060 and RX 570 only to also get 1/2 the speed on FPS vs current benchies.
4K with FC 5 ultra is 14 fps 1080p 55 fps.....all @ ultra... everyone else guru3d toms anandtech and here all show double the frame rates.. What is the possible culprit OR


Is everyone just plane off the mark If I upgrade to a current coffee lake i7 setup will my same 1070 suddenly come back to life and double my frame rates?
As an added note, Of course I installed the most current nvidia drivers and ODDLY Folding GPU crashed.. I re-installed older nvidia drivers to make them work. FRESH so drivers are not the culprit as fps in FC5 was unchanged.
Please discuss ... All comments, including telling me I am a moron are AOK.


Happy Holidays.
Last edited by matnath1 on Fri Dec 21, 2018 2:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
Waco
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Re: Half FPS vs Gaming Site's I7 4790 with GTX 1070 WHY?

Thu Dec 20, 2018 11:48 pm

Are you running Folding in the background while gaming? Are the reviews you're reading from the current version of FC5? I know the "ultra" settings changed over time.
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matnath1
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Re: Half FPS vs Gaming Site's I7 4790 with GTX 1070 WHY?

Fri Dec 21, 2018 1:01 am

No, I am not folding while gaming. That would bring my frame rate to a crawl. I am using the current FC5 Built in Benchmark. Most sites "seem" to be using the same one no? Is there a change from my updated Steam Version vs what say Guru3d or this site uses? (thanks for the fast reply). The reviews are for the current RTX 2070 FC5 benchmarks so they should be the same ? Or am I missing something?
 
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Re: Half FPS vs Gaming Site's I7 4790 with GTX 1070 WHY?

Fri Dec 21, 2018 2:00 am

Have you checked what clocks your 1070(s) are running at when gaming? You can use MSI Afterburner, or if you want something more lightweight, GPU-Z.

Also, just to check, you did plug in power to the PCIE power port(s) on the cards, right?

Make sure VSync is off when benchmarking. Do you have Shadowplay running? If so turn it off, especially if it's bottlenecking because of I/O.
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Re: Half FPS vs Gaming Site's I7 4790 with GTX 1070 WHY?

Fri Dec 21, 2018 2:09 am

So I think your i7 4790 is indeed the bottleneck (which might be a little surprising). Have a look at these:

https://www.anandtech.com/bench/CPU/1827

Notice the following:
i7 8700K - 6C/12T - 4.7 GHz: 150 avg fps
i7 7740X - 4C/8T - 4.3 GHz: 103 avg fps

I can't find a direct comparison between the 4xxx generation i7 and any recent CPUs, but I suspect that it's going to be about half the performance of the 8700K (which is most commonly used in reviews).

IMO, the difference is more related to clock rate increase and memory speed increase (which has been dramatic since the 4xxx series was released.)
 
matnath1
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Re: Half FPS vs Gaming Site's I7 4790 with GTX 1070 WHY?

Fri Dec 21, 2018 2:33 am

vsync is off the psu is connected correctly (25 years of PC experience) I am at a loss. Some blogs say the game is effected by memory speed type and bandwith but will it cut my frame rates in half? I just saw something else rather odd.

Rise of the TR (2016 GAME) Internal bench does 30 FPS on BOTH 1440p and 4k WTF? Same settings no tessalation no Dynamic Hair (whatever they call it) and YUP same 30 fps without a frame limiter.. How does that happen?
I ran the New Assasings Creed odyssey @ 4k (left settings where the game had them) 24 FPS? Not good. What could be causing this? Does anyone else have this I7 Haswell setup running a 1070 with these games at these settings? (Any cross generational benchmark reviews comparing Haswell to Coffee lake at 1440 p 4k would be appreciated....I can't find any).

BTW Win 10 Pro 64 is my OS
 
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Re: Half FPS vs Gaming Site's I7 4790 with GTX 1070 WHY?

Fri Dec 21, 2018 3:38 am

matnath1 wrote:
4K with FC 5 ultra is 14 fps 1080p 55 fps.....all @ ultra...

That's a very GPU-bound pattern (pixels per second is the same with all three configs)...

matnath1 wrote:
Rise of the TR (2016 GAME) Internal bench does 30 FPS on BOTH 1440p and 4k WTF?

... But given that, it's probably worth checking out CPU-bound angles too.

This is absolutely not normal for the hardware you're using, and throwing more hardware at it isn't a reasonable solution. A properly functioning 4790 with fast RAM is still an excellent CPU for almost any gaming you might want to do on a 60 Hz display.

matnath1 wrote:
Some blogs say the game is effected by memory speed type and bandwith but will it cut my frame rates in half?

Close to half sometimes (if it's not dual-channel) but you're probably dealing with a bigger difference than that here. If it were single-channel DDR3-1066, that might get it close, but there would still have to be something else wrong on top of that.

JdL wrote:
So I think your i7 4790 is indeed the bottleneck (which might be a little surprising).

A better datapoint from that chart would be the 2600K at 93 fps. A 4790 is a touch faster than a 2600K, and yet the OP is seeing 30 fps. No.

Anyway:

* What are your GPU clocks with a game running?
* How are CPU and GPU temperatures?
* What are CPU and GPU utilization listed as when running FC5? What about RoTR?
* What are your RAM use and CPU utilization at idle?
* Are you seeing any performance problems outside of gaming?
* Are framerates stable, or inconsistent/hitchy? How's input latency?

matnath1 wrote:
I have not done a fresh install in the 3 years for fear of losing critcal data.

It's off topic, but that's worth fixing. No hardware lasts forever.
 
Topinio
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Re: Half FPS vs Gaming Site's I7 4790 with GTX 1070 WHY?

Fri Dec 21, 2018 5:09 am

What synthtel2 said.

Also, your PPD of 550k seems a bit low to me for a GTX 1070, my Vega 56 gets more than that at 650k on the second lowest of the built-in power configs and 550k+ on its lowest one.

So I checked the OCN PPD DB and you're in only the 6th percentile for 1070 scores, which is not looking like it's great as the median is 715k and the range is 411k to 991k PPD.

Was that score the same with each of the GTX 1070's that you've tried in this system?
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Re: Half FPS vs Gaming Site's I7 4790 with GTX 1070 WHY?

Fri Dec 21, 2018 6:47 am

JdL wrote:
So I think your i7 4790 is indeed the bottleneck (which might be a little surprising). Have a look at these:

https://www.anandtech.com/bench/CPU/1827

Notice the following:
i7 8700K - 6C/12T - 4.7 GHz: 150 avg fps
i7 7740X - 4C/8T - 4.3 GHz: 103 avg fps

I can't find a direct comparison between the 4xxx generation i7 and any recent CPUs, but I suspect that it's going to be about half the performance of the 8700K (which is most commonly used in reviews).

IMO, the difference is more related to clock rate increase and memory speed increase (which has been dramatic since the 4xxx series was released.)


LOL, Anandtech Bench!

Quick sanity check on those results, for example.
  • 35W i5 7400T @ 2.4GHz = 132.41fps.
  • 91W i7 6700K @ 4.0GHz = 119.36fps.

The only explanation is that AT Bench is now worthless garbage data to be avoided at all costs.
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Re: Half FPS vs Gaming Site's I7 4790 with GTX 1070 WHY?

Fri Dec 21, 2018 8:50 am

I concur with Voldenuit's suggestion: run some monitoring tools while doing the game benchmarks. Are the CPU and GPU getting properly loaded up? Are the memory and core clocks ramping up as they should?

You might want to take out the drives you have now (to prevent any possible data loss) and try a fresh OS install on a different drive just to test.
 
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Re: Half FPS vs Gaming Site's I7 4790 with GTX 1070 WHY?

Fri Dec 21, 2018 8:54 am

What power profile are you running? Is turbo enabled?
 
Voldenuit
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Re: Half FPS vs Gaming Site's I7 4790 with GTX 1070 WHY?

Fri Dec 21, 2018 12:02 pm

jihadjoe wrote:
I concur with Voldenuit's suggestion: run some monitoring tools while doing the game benchmarks. Are the CPU and GPU getting properly loaded up? Are the memory and core clocks ramping up as they should?

You might want to take out the drives you have now (to prevent any possible data loss) and try a fresh OS install on a different drive just to test.


Also, worth checking that nothing is being gimped in BIOS.

1. Load 'Optimized Defaults' in BIOS just to reset any errant settings.
2. Make sure RAM is in dual-channel mode. You may have to relocate some DIMMs if it isn't.
3. 'Clean' driver install of nvidia drivers. If you upgrade from a 1060 to a 1070 and don't reset your GFE presets, this can be an issue.
4. Use GPU-Z, XTU, to make sure both GPU and CPU are clocking up properly.
5. Do you have any errant processes eating up CPU? There isn't a firewall exception popup waiting for your prompt in the background is there?

I don't think a 4790 is a bottleneck for the game on 1440p Ultra (where it would be GPU-bound even on a 2500K). Are other games also slow?

If none of that works, probably worth trying jihadjoe's suggestion of fresh windows install on a test disk.
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Re: Half FPS vs Gaming Site's I7 4790 with GTX 1070 WHY?

Fri Dec 21, 2018 2:49 pm

The XPS 8700 is a 2013 machine, IIRC (2 family members have them), and so it didn't come with Windows 10. How clean is the OS install? i.e. has it gone through Windows 8 -> 8.1 -> 10 1507 -> 10 1511 -> 10 1607 -> 10 1703 -> 10 1709 -> 10 1803 -> 10 1809 and if not which has it done?

Asking because there cound be a lot of OS crud going on, in addition to whatever NVIDIA driver crud has built up (assuming all of the several GPUs have been NVIDIA).

I would vote for a firmware reset and a clean install on a blank SSD, as quicker than debugging -- but I know that's not to everyone's taste, and requires faith in your backups.

(Incidentally, while I'm sure that it's not the issue here, these machines are only validated for Windows 7, 8, 8.1 and 10 up to 1709.)
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JdL
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Re: Half FPS vs Gaming Site's I7 4790 with GTX 1070 WHY?

Fri Dec 21, 2018 4:14 pm

Chrispy_ wrote:
LOL, Anandtech Bench!

Quick sanity check on those results, for example.
  • 35W i5 7400T @ 2.4GHz = 132.41fps.
  • 91W i7 6700K @ 4.0GHz = 119.36fps.

The only explanation is that AT Bench is now worthless garbage data to be avoided at all costs.


Yikes! I've used them for comparing current-gen cpu's ... but trying to go back like this. Um, wow. Just wow. FWIW, this one is even worse: https://www.anandtech.com/bench/CPU/1761

i7 2600K @ 55.96 fps
i7 6700K @ 49.85 fps

Doh!

/me stands corrected.
 
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Re: Half FPS vs Gaming Site's I7 4790 with GTX 1070 WHY?

Fri Dec 21, 2018 4:20 pm

Ohhh this is a Dell 8700... Does the PCI Express run at speeds fast enough for the new GPUs?
 
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Re: Half FPS vs Gaming Site's I7 4790 with GTX 1070 WHY?

Fri Dec 21, 2018 4:24 pm

Ran across this thread and the guide linked here might be helpful: https://www.dell.com/community/Desktops ... e#M1008654
 
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Re: Half FPS vs Gaming Site's I7 4790 with GTX 1070 WHY?

Fri Dec 21, 2018 7:08 pm

TL;DR But yeah, your CPU is the...bottleneck (hate that word)
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Re: Half FPS vs Gaming Site's I7 4790 with GTX 1070 WHY?

Fri Dec 21, 2018 8:37 pm

DPete27 wrote:
TL;DR But yeah, your CPU is the...bottleneck (hate that word)

That implies the OP should get a new CPU, which would probably be a terrific waste of money.

A properly functioning 4790 doesn't behave anything like this.
 
matnath1
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Re: Half FPS vs Gaming Site's I7 4790 with GTX 1070 WHY?

Fri Dec 21, 2018 9:37 pm

I greatly appreciate all of the input from you guys. I have no formal training in it and operating systems.
I digested all I read above and decided some was "over my capabilities" so I have done a win 10 "re-set" whereby I went into system restore and chose to re-set and save all files.

After 1/2 hour or so, and a few re-boots this did nothing to improve my frame rates.

What is the difference between doing a manual re-install and this re-set? I had to re-install firefox, and chrome and re-acquaint STEAM with my game files to make it "see them" but no benefit I can see for the performacne issue...
What did this re-set actually do? Is it the same as doing a clean re-install from a windows 10 DVD for example? (My guess is no).

SOme responses to earlier questions are my GPU clocks are where they should be based on GPU-Z CPU useage was at 11% and a lot of unrecognizeable background crap was running. This is why I did the re-set as a past attempt to manually add remove or disable some programs resulted in my screwing up the operating system. I did not want to take that chance again.

This is very frustrating.
 
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Re: Half FPS vs Gaming Site's I7 4790 with GTX 1070 WHY?

Fri Dec 21, 2018 11:02 pm

Hmm.....You installed the latest BIOS revision and thoroughly checked all the settings for anything stupid, like automatic overclocking nonsense?
 
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Re: Half FPS vs Gaming Site's I7 4790 with GTX 1070 WHY?

Fri Dec 21, 2018 11:24 pm

matnath1 wrote:
SOme responses to earlier questions are my GPU clocks are where they should be based on GPU-Z CPU useage was at 11% and a lot of unrecognizeable background crap was running. This is why I did the re-set as a past attempt to manually add remove or disable some programs resulted in my screwing up the operating system. I did not want to take that chance again.


OK, we've found something that's very abnormal. Your CPU usage should not be that low in Far Cry 5.

What does GPU-Z say about your GPU Core Clock, GPU Memory Clock and GPU Load? This should be in the 'Sensors' tab of GPU-Z. Your core clock should be in the 1600-1800 MHz range when the game is running, depending on your SKU. Your GPU load should be in the 99-100% range with the game at the forefront.

I echo what JDL suggested. Use DDU to clean your old nvidia drivers off the system and do a fresh reinstall of the latest GeForce drivers. Also, is this only happening in FC5 or other games? If it's only affecting Far Cry, you might want to reinstall Far Cry 5.
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Re: Half FPS vs Gaming Site's I7 4790 with GTX 1070 WHY?

Fri Dec 21, 2018 11:28 pm

Just throwing this out there...the latest GPUZ versions show CPU util % and System Memory Util % at the bottom of the sensors tab. In some certain situations, it almost obviates the need for Task Manager.
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Re: Half FPS vs Gaming Site's I7 4790 with GTX 1070 WHY?

Sat Dec 22, 2018 12:11 pm

You already double-checked that your RAM is in dual-channel mode, as other posters have pointed out? That'll cut the CPU's performance neatly in half in many situations.
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matnath1
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Re: Half FPS vs Gaming Site's I7 4790 with GTX 1070 WHY?

Sat Dec 22, 2018 4:04 pm

I had some time to run some utlities and I hope they can shed some light:

CPU Useage when idle is 10%
CPU Useage when running the FC5 Benchmark is 38% spread over all 8 cores EDIT CPU Clocking @ 3.8ghz under load
GPUZ shows GPU @ idle 139mhz During FC5 built in bench 1873mhz
GPUZ Shows GPU Memory @idle 202mhz during FC5 Bench 2003mhz
16GB DDR3 2 x 8GB sticks Confirmed running in Dual Channell at correct clocks
My attempt to run DDU was frustrating. I entered win 10 (Pro 64) safemode the damned utility grayed out the buttons needed to remove the driver "crap". Note I am "old school" and was careful to manually remove via add remove all traces of old nvidia and AMD drivers as I have used gtx 1060 2 other 1070 cards and an AMD RX570 I always add remove all signs of their drivers that appear in the add remove program list.. Re-boot.. Than install the new nvidia driver (or amd) ... What does DDU Do ? better than this ..Do I have to pay a fee to activate DDU? (again it was grayed out both in regular and in safemode with networking

I updated to the most current Dell XPS 8700 Bios

I tried to go to find a way to update the GTX 1070 Bios (zotac fe) but their site had NO RESULT for bios updates for any 1070 (is there anywhere else I can go for this... it is actually Zotac OEM 1070 almost identical to the Founders Edition with a blower fan etc).

This particalar card was acquired on eBay from a 200 Feedback seller who only had ONE card (did not look like a miner sellign 4 or 5 or 6 cards) who said it was NOT used for mining and that was recently bought... only used for light gaming). If he lied and flashed this to a Mining BIOS could this cause my performance penalty IF SO How can I correct it:
GPU-Z shows the bios number as 86.04.50.00.7F Confirms 1929 shaders Fill Rate 107.7GPXELS Texel 202 Gtexel 256bit bandwith
Last edited by matnath1 on Sun Dec 23, 2018 3:25 am, edited 2 times in total.
 
matnath1
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Re: Half FPS vs Gaming Site's I7 4790 with GTX 1070 WHY?

Sat Dec 22, 2018 4:12 pm

Added data:

I ran a 4GB MSI RX570 4GB on FC5 's same built in benchmark @ 1440p ultra... ONLY gave 15 FPS AVG 8 FPS min 22 Max.

GURU 3D recently shows nearly triple these frame rates..

I am about to install these on an older XPS 8300 with i5 2400 7 Pro 64 which is a streaming tower PC for my GYM / TV Setup. I will let you guys know how an i5 Sandy Bridge does with these cards...

The plot thickens
 
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Re: Half FPS vs Gaming Site's I7 4790 with GTX 1070 WHY?

Sat Dec 22, 2018 4:56 pm

If those clocks are sustained through the runs, the GPU is fine.

The CPU utilisation under load is looking too low, probably. I found a couple of articles that suggest FC5 is only CPU clock limited once you get to 4C4T, so I'd suggest next that you log you CPU's clock and utilisation throughout the run.

My suspicion is that you're getting low clocks, likely due to poor TIM or HSF attachment. Still rocking the stock Dell-provided cooling solution? Checked it for issues? Removed it, cleaned it, applied new TIM?

https://www.guru3d.com/articles_pages/f ... iew,8.html
https://www.dsogaming.com/pc-performanc ... -analysis/
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Re: Half FPS vs Gaming Site's I7 4790 with GTX 1070 WHY?

Sat Dec 22, 2018 7:43 pm

Topinio wrote:
If those clocks are sustained through the runs, the GPU is fine.

The CPU utilisation under load is looking too low, probably. I found a couple of articles that suggest FC5 is only CPU clock limited once you get to 4C4T, so I'd suggest next that you log you CPU's clock and utilisation throughout the run.

My suspicion is that you're getting low clocks, likely due to poor TIM or HSF attachment. Still rocking the stock Dell-provided cooling solution? Checked it for issues? Removed it, cleaned it, applied new TIM?

https://www.guru3d.com/articles_pages/f ... iew,8.html
https://www.dsogaming.com/pc-performanc ... -analysis/


Concur with Topinio, GPU clocks look fine. Is the GPU under 100% load? If it's not, it could either be the GPU or the CPU at fault.

CPU clock we don't know, so maybe it is thermal throttling if the heatsink is dusty or the TIM is old and flaked.

Next step is to check the CPU clocks during the benchmark. Use intel XTU, it can run a log graph and if you enable Thermal and Power throttling, you'll be able to see if either were in effect. Also report back CPU clocks and temps.
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Re: Half FPS vs Gaming Site's I7 4790 with GTX 1070 WHY?

Sat Dec 22, 2018 8:48 pm

Topinio wrote:
How clean is the OS install? i.e. has it gone through Windows 8 -> 8.1 -> 10 1507 -> 10 1511 -> 10 1607 -> 10 1703 -> 10 1709 -> 10 1803 -> 10 1809 and if not which has it done?

I have to say this is irrelevant. My current desktop install started at Vista and made it through 7, 8, 8.1, 10 (when it was first available), and every iteration of 10 since.

I'm also very bad at removing drivers. I'm sure I have 15 versions of AMD and Nvidia drivers in various flavors "polluting" this install. Runs great. :)

EDIT: Do you have any local friends with a computer you could swap your 1070 into? Friends with GPUs you could swap into your machine? Something does seem a bit fishy.
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matnath1
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Re: Half FPS vs Gaming Site's I7 4790 with GTX 1070 WHY?

Sun Dec 23, 2018 3:25 am

EDIT above CPU @ 3.8ghz during the benchmark (now added into the above "utlities section".)
GPU 99% Useage temp 65' CPU 3.78ghz under load

I ran a 1080p Ultra (no A/A) 54 FPS Avg This should be hitting double.

A comment from above stated I should have the CPU taken out and re-installed with newer Thermal Paste? Do you think the Dell Stock Cooler is failing and the CPU is under clocking OR not cooling enough? (How do i check cpu temps?)>

This is the 2nd 1070 in this XPS in 2 weeks time. The first was a known Mining PNY OEM 1070 off eBay. I returned it when I saw these low FPS numbers and so I bought the Zotac that is in place now. This one was NOT used for mining.. Only about 1 FPS faster I had an RX5704GB installed which also benched at 1/2 FPS vs Published Tech Site numbers in FC5.
 
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Location: London

Re: Half FPS vs Gaming Site's I7 4790 with GTX 1070 WHY?

Sun Dec 23, 2018 4:46 am

Can you post the GPU-Z (version 2.16.0) log file for the whole run, see how it looks? i.e. click the 'Log to file' option on the tab below and share the results. Something is odd here, if you have those CPU and GPU clocks sustained then neither is thermally constrained and throttling.

Image
Desktop: E3-1270 v5, X11SAT-F, 32GB, RX 580, 500GB P1, 250GB MX500, 4TB 7E8, Xonar DGX, XL2730Z + L22e-20
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