Personal computing discussed

Moderators: renee, Hoser

 
JustAnEngineer
Gerbil God
Topic Author
Posts: 19329
Joined: Sat Jan 26, 2002 7:00 pm
Location: The Heart of Dixie

PlayStation 5

Tue Oct 08, 2019 10:21 am

Last edited by JustAnEngineer on Tue Oct 08, 2019 11:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
1: i7-9700K, NH-D15, Z390M Pro4, 32GiB, RX Vega64, ½TB 960Pro +2TB MX500, Define Mini-C, SSR-850PX, LG 32UD99 + UltraSharp U2410, RK9000V2-BR
2: R5-3600X, Wraith Spire, B450M Steel Legend, 32GiB, RX5500XT, 2TB SX8200Pro, P160, SS-660XP2, TV, G610
 
superjawes
Minister of Gerbil Affairs
Posts: 2403
Joined: Thu May 28, 2009 9:49 am

Re: PlayStation 5

Tue Oct 08, 2019 10:29 am

Is it just me, or does that chassis look...bad? Since the PS2, Sony have released nice-looking, all-black chassis. I am not on board with this two-tone design.

And I know it's just a render, but the front plate looks like it's covered in stickers.
On second thought, let's not go to TechReport. Tis a silly place.
 
Amiga500+
Gerbil
Posts: 76
Joined: Wed Sep 21, 2016 2:10 am

Re: PlayStation 5

Wed Oct 09, 2019 11:12 am

You'd like to hope that the OS will be on a separate drive to the SSD.

Which means users could swap out the original SSD with one of much higher capacity/speed and the OS could recognise that and re-initialise itself.

And agreed on the 2 tone. Subtle is better.
 
Usacomp2k3
Gerbil God
Posts: 23043
Joined: Thu Apr 01, 2004 4:53 pm
Location: Orlando, FL
Contact:

Re: PlayStation 5

Wed Oct 09, 2019 11:38 am

The shape is pretty ugly. I can understand it from an airflow standpoint though.
Amiga500+ wrote:
Which means users could swap out the original SSD with one of much higher capacity/speed and the OS could recognise that and re-initialise itself.

I doubt that'll happen. It certainly isn't needed for speed. Even an old QLC drive on SATA isn't going to be noticeably slower than the best NVME drive when it comes to load times. Capacity maybe. I would expect them to sell different capacities similar to cell phone's and just charge more. For people with fast enough internet, the small drives will never be a problem as long as delete unused gamefiles is transparent to the user.
 
JustAnEngineer
Gerbil God
Topic Author
Posts: 19329
Joined: Sat Jan 26, 2002 7:00 pm
Location: The Heart of Dixie

Re: PlayStation 5

Wed Oct 09, 2019 11:43 am

PlayStation 3 allowed easy drive swaps. I don’t know about PS4.
1: i7-9700K, NH-D15, Z390M Pro4, 32GiB, RX Vega64, ½TB 960Pro +2TB MX500, Define Mini-C, SSR-850PX, LG 32UD99 + UltraSharp U2410, RK9000V2-BR
2: R5-3600X, Wraith Spire, B450M Steel Legend, 32GiB, RX5500XT, 2TB SX8200Pro, P160, SS-660XP2, TV, G610
 
superjawes
Minister of Gerbil Affairs
Posts: 2403
Joined: Thu May 28, 2009 9:49 am

Re: PlayStation 5

Wed Oct 09, 2019 11:45 am

Usacomp2k3 wrote:
The shape is pretty ugly. I can understand it from an airflow standpoint though.
Because I'm a nerd, I'm not 100% against the shape. It looks like a V, which is the Roman numeral 5...like I said, I'm a nerd.
On second thought, let's not go to TechReport. Tis a silly place.
 
Glorious
Gerbilus Supremus
Posts: 12102
Joined: Tue Aug 27, 2002 6:35 pm

Re: PlayStation 5

Wed Oct 09, 2019 11:55 am

Amiga500+ wrote:
You'd like to hope that the OS will be on a separate drive to the SSD.

Which means users could swap out the original SSD with one of much higher capacity/speed and the OS could recognise that and re-initialise itself.


You can do that on the PS4, and even the EDIT:PS4 PS3 , right now.

Sure, you have to download the system software yourself onto something, and then stick that something into the console, but heck, you just broke out the screwdriver to physically replace the drive, so why not?

What would a more advanced firmware that will automatically format the drive, download the image, and then install it, do for you? A little easier, but that doesn't have anything to do with "Can I replace the drive?" And there's also the problem that if Sony loses the URL for the CDN the firmware points to, whoops. Back to where we were before (and this seems to happen all the time for motherboard firmwares that "auto-self-update"--they've never worked for me. Surely Sony can do better, but still)!

And, if we are talking about an entirely different drive for the OS as opposed to some 256MB flash chip or whatever, why? That would add 20 dollars or more to the base cost of each unit, for something that vast majority of people will never do themselves even if the drive breaks. When I wanted more space for games on my PS4, I simply got a bus-powered USB mechnical, not even a SSD.

An entirely different drive would increase the price and offer essentially nothing--the small minority of people who actually replace the internal drive don't have to have a usb key? No thanks, I'd rather spend less on the unit.

Usacomp2k3 wrote:
I doubt that'll happen. It certainly isn't needed for speed. Even an old QLC drive on SATA isn't going to be noticeably slower than the best NVME drive when it comes to load times. Capacity maybe.


I mean, although they are small minority of gamers overall, plenty of people have upgraded the internal HDD in the PS3 and PS4 for faster drives, often times these days even SSDs! Plenty of other people, such as myself, have plugged in a USB drive for expanded storage. It is an option, but at least for speed the fact that new one comes with SSD means there won't be much point along those lines.

All I am saying is that the completely unimpeded ability to change the internal drive is something that Sony has emphasized for the past two consoles, almost as a selling point to enthusiasts like us. So, unless they are suddenly saying something scary, you'd assume the new one allows for the exact same, and the ability to change the drive never had a thing to do with "where is the OS?"
Last edited by Glorious on Wed Oct 09, 2019 12:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
dragontamer5788
Gerbil Elite
Posts: 647
Joined: Mon May 06, 2013 8:39 am

Re: PlayStation 5

Wed Oct 09, 2019 12:00 pm

Glorious wrote:
Amiga500+ wrote:
You'd like to hope that the OS will be on a separate drive to the SSD.

Which means users could swap out the original SSD with one of much higher capacity/speed and the OS could recognise that and re-initialise itself.


You can do that on the PS4, and even the PS4, right now.


PS4 doesn't support TRIM protocol, so SSDs die an early death on PS4. I suggest PS4 players to just stick with hard drives honestly. If PS5 is really designed for SSDs, then they'll handle TRIM correctly
 
Glorious
Gerbilus Supremus
Posts: 12102
Joined: Tue Aug 27, 2002 6:35 pm

Re: PlayStation 5

Wed Oct 09, 2019 12:03 pm

JustAnEngineer wrote:
PlayStation 3 allowed easy drive swaps. I don’t know about PS4.


You can change the internal drive on the PS4 easily:

https://support.playstation.com/s/artic ... uage=en_US

Plenty of people (again, relative: it's a small minority of overall PS4s owners) are opting to self-upgrade into SSDs, which is why it is nice the next iteration just comes with one by default.

You can also add an external one (SSD or otherwise) on the USB3 bus for expanded storage. My 2TB bus-powered mechanical attached via USB is at least as fast as the internal it came with, and anecdotally seemed a little faster. <shrug>

If you change the internal HDD, yes, you need a 1G USB key for the system software.

I'm just saying, what does the ability to change the HD have to do with how you get the system software back onto it once you did? One isn't related to other, regardless if the firmware has an auto-installer, if there's an entirely different OS volume, or if you have to merely plug something into the same PS4 you just opened with a screwdriver?
 
Glorious
Gerbilus Supremus
Posts: 12102
Joined: Tue Aug 27, 2002 6:35 pm

Re: PlayStation 5

Wed Oct 09, 2019 12:19 pm

dragontamer5788 wrote:
PS4 doesn't support TRIM protocol, so SSDs die an early death on PS4. I suggest PS4 players to just stick with hard drives honestly. If PS5 is really designed for SSDs, then they'll handle TRIM correctly


I've never heard of that being an issue, and likewise I have no idea about TRIM support.

I do know several people who have had an SSD in their PS4 for years, and none of them have complained.

Also, the kind of workload we're talking about here, game installs, saves, it's practically WORM anyway.

Think about it: People like SSDs because the IOPs of even best-class consumer 2.5 mechanicals suck: even if you got a 15k SAS screamer from a server at work and managed to get it to work, that's 200 tops. Even crappy SSDs from 5 years ago murder that: order of magnitude better, period. And that's really only because of the first letter of the acronym, the writes (input). That second letter, the reads(output)? TWO orders of magnitude.

You have to understand, game makers have to place certain data numerous different places on the disk because non-sequential latency is way too brutal.

Hence, what could the device be doing that would have any sort of regular pattern of small scale writes/deletes? Games would have loading hiccups.

You'd think, as I say, it'd basically -ALL- be Write Once, Read Many. Yes, occasionally deletes of games, saves, etc... but those are infrequent and already organized into large blocks. Unlike a normal operating system there's a real problem if things are constantly small-scale caching, logging, etc.. somewhere on the disk. Likewise with paging/swap. Games would stutter.

So, you'd think, it wouldn't really much matter if it had TRIM support or not.

and, as I said, none of the rather intensive gamers I know who've installed SSDs have reported any issue.

<shrug>
 
dragontamer5788
Gerbil Elite
Posts: 647
Joined: Mon May 06, 2013 8:39 am

Re: PlayStation 5

Wed Oct 09, 2019 12:30 pm

Glorious wrote:
Hence, what could the device be doing that would have any sort of regular pattern of small scale writes/deletes?


System updates, which seem to happen every week. System and game updates happen in the background, while the system is "Sleeping" (usually when I'm at work, and the system updates itself and needs a reboot before I can play a game). I'd definitely be worried about write-amplification, based on how often the PS4 updates.

There are also lots of PS4 temp-files and "cache" files, which are deleted upon reboot. Rumor is that PS4 also buffers video from Netflix / Youtube to the hard drive for better streaming service (I can't find solid proof, but it seems plausible to me).

There's enough use of PS4 as a general system (between updates, screenshots, social media, "cache" files, temporary game installs, etc. etc.) that I'd be worried about the write amplification problem. Especially because PS4 clearly doesn't have any TRIM support.

In any case, I'm not saying "don't use an SSD". I'm mostly saying "You're taking a write-amplification risk". If you are fine with that, go on ahead. PS5 will mitigate the risk in any case, so I welcome the news of official SSD support in the PS5.
 
DPete27
Grand Gerbil Poohbah
Posts: 3774
Joined: Wed Jan 26, 2011 12:50 pm
Location: Wisconsin, USA

Re: PlayStation 5

Wed Oct 09, 2019 12:36 pm

I read in some PS5 article that because of the SSD, they'll be able to remove a lot of item copies because SSDs don't suffer from the access time junk that HDDs do. Also level load times, ever wonder why doors open slow, your character trips every now and again, why your character runs so slow? Yup, to allow a HDD to keep up apparently.

Also liking the alleged move to selective game installs. Don't want single player, don't install it! Don't want uncomressed audio? Don't install it (YAYYYY!!!!)
Main: i5-3570K, ASRock Z77 Pro4-M, MSI RX480 8G, 500GB Crucial BX100, 2 TB Samsung EcoGreen F4, 16GB 1600MHz G.Skill @1.25V, EVGA 550-G2, Silverstone PS07B
HTPC: A8-5600K, MSI FM2-A75IA-E53, 4TB Seagate SSHD, 8GB 1866MHz G.Skill, Crosley D-25 Case Mod
 
just brew it!
Administrator
Posts: 53995
Joined: Tue Aug 20, 2002 10:51 pm
Location: Somewhere, having a beer

Re: PlayStation 5

Wed Oct 09, 2019 12:39 pm

Even with system updates, I really doubt the write amplification is going to be enough to cause an early death. If you're still using the console 5 years down the road you'll probably want to upgrade to a larger drive by then anyway.
Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
 
Glorious
Gerbilus Supremus
Posts: 12102
Joined: Tue Aug 27, 2002 6:35 pm

Re: PlayStation 5

Wed Oct 09, 2019 1:00 pm

dragontamer5788 wrote:
System updates, which seem to happen every week. System and game updates happen in the background, while the system is "Sleeping" (usually when I'm at work, and the system updates itself and needs a reboot before I can play a game). I'd definitely be worried about write-amplification, based on how often the PS4 updates.


It seems to be about one a month, I'd guess. Which is something like seventy since its release, assuming they had the same cadence at the beginning as they do now.

This really wouldn't appear to impose much of a problem, especially since they aren't retroactively applied. If you got a SSD today, and put yesterday release of 7.00 on it, you start at 1. In two years you're at ~24. <shrug>

Again, a lot of people do this non-theoretically, especially heavy gamers that play a lot of games a lot of the time. I know several, they're never indicated they had any sort of problem. Usually, they're just disappointed at the very beginning when the SSD doesn't completely eliminate load times or first-round pop-in. It lessens them, sure, but native disk speed/latency just isn't the only factor.

As time goes on, they've never indicated any sort of degradation or problem---this disappointment happens at the start, with a fresh drive.

dragontamer5788 wrote:
There are also lots of PS4 temp-files and "cache" files, which are deleted upon reboot.


Right, but that's what I already told you: games put the same data in different places on the disk (which is exclusively mechanical as provided by the OEM, hence the automatically necessary baseline assumption) BECAUSE the non-sequential latency is horrible. It's still basically WORM.

dragontamer5788 wrote:
Rumor is that PS4 also buffers video from Netflix / Youtube to the hard drive for better streaming service (I can't find solid proof, but it seems plausible to me).


I don't know, maybe? The people I know with SSDs are pretty much just gamers so if this causes a problem, yeah, I admit I wouldn't really know...

dragontamer5788 wrote:
There's enough use of PS4 as a general system (between updates, screenshots, social media, "cache" files, temporary game installs, etc. etc.) that I'd be worried about the write amplification problem. Especially because PS4 clearly doesn't have any TRIM support.


At first you said they'd die an early death. Now you just say you are worried.

Well, I'm not worried. And I know several people who have actually done it, one of which I think did it in 2015. Three years ago, when 500GB ones were less than 150 and 1TB ones around 250, several more people did it.

I never did because the one I have I only "half-own" (though it's been exclusively mine de facto for nearly two years now) and, as I only half-own it, yeah I'm 1) cheap 2) don't really game that much I guess.

Otherwise, absolutely I would. It was just cheaper and less complicated to plug-in a 2TB WD wallet-sized USB mechanical I had laying around (THE HP ML10v2 WON'T BOOT FROM A USB -DISK- ONLY A USB -KEY-!!!! YES! SERIOUSLY! WHYYYYYYYYYY). The speed difference between that and an SSD doesn't really bother me enough to care.
 
dragontamer5788
Gerbil Elite
Posts: 647
Joined: Mon May 06, 2013 8:39 am

Re: PlayStation 5

Wed Oct 09, 2019 1:04 pm

At first you said they'd die an early death. Now you just say you are worried.


Stay Glorious, Mr. Glorious.

just brew it! wrote:
Even with system updates, I really doubt the write amplification is going to be enough to cause an early death. If you're still using the console 5 years down the road you'll probably want to upgrade to a larger drive by then anyway.


PS4 came out in 2013, so we're at 6-years old at this point. The console market definitely exists on a 5+ year life cycle minimum. Sure, the PS4 Pro came out since then, but I don't think most PS4 owners upgraded to the PS4 Pro.
 
Glorious
Gerbilus Supremus
Posts: 12102
Joined: Tue Aug 27, 2002 6:35 pm

Re: PlayStation 5

Wed Oct 09, 2019 1:20 pm

DPete27 wrote:
I read in some PS5 article that because of the SSD, they'll be able to remove a lot of item copies because SSDs don't suffer from the access time junk that HDDs do.


Yes!

As I said, having the OEM -ONLY- provision with SSDs means that this automatic baseline assumption goes "poof!"

Which is GREAT! Now game makers don't have to worry about the insanity of desperately making sure everything is sequential.

JBI wrote:
Even with system updates, I really doubt the write amplification is going to be enough to cause an early death. If you're still using the console 5 years down the road you'll probably want to upgrade to a larger drive by then anyway.


Yeah, I can see perhaps performance degradation, maybe, but the fact that everyone on the platform is obsessed with minimizing non-sequential access whenever possible, yes, they'll do anything to keep everything in the largest unit possible. That's the attitude across the board. That means that I don't think degradation is all that likely, and write amplification unto death even less likely.

It's not like PCs, where anyone and his cousin has unfettered filesystem access and can just do whatever, whenever. Everyone on the platform is approved and has a copy of the TRC, and it's a standard platform.

---

I mean, if you are worried, run it for a year, copy your saved games, remove the drive, check the SMART total writes, wipe, and then install it back into the console and re-image.

Write down the total writes. If it seems high, then do it more frequently.

Yes, that's a hassle. But it's free and it would "save" your SSD.
 
Glorious
Gerbilus Supremus
Posts: 12102
Joined: Tue Aug 27, 2002 6:35 pm

Re: PlayStation 5

Wed Oct 09, 2019 1:29 pm

dragontamer5788 wrote:
Stay Glorious, Mr. Glorious.


Not gonna change now, no.

Still, you're watering down the initial warning, and I think that's because you realize that maybe you went just a little overboard. ;)

dragontamer5788 wrote:
PS4 came out in 2013, so we're at 6-years old at this point. The console market definitely exists on a 5+ year life cycle minimum. Sure, the PS4 Pro came out since then, but I don't think most PS4 owners upgraded to the PS4 Pro.


I'm willing to bet, that if I did (non-destructively, only checking the SMART data) what I described above on any of my friend's PS4's SSDs, that I'd find that the total writes were, at most, 20x the size of the drive.

And these are people with libraries of ~100 games, who also seem to download the monthly two free (not just click "yes" and add the rights to the game in playstation online--no, they install) games that you get with PS Plus (that they all, of course, have--I do too). That is, they've installed/removed many more games in total than the size of the volume (whereas, for instance, I have not--I have removed only a single game from my 2TB external, and it's still not full yet).

So, two points:

1) You can save the drive from any risk by semi-regularly doing what I described above. Annoying, yes, but it's also free.
2) Assuredly someone, somewhere, has done what I only suggest (check the SMART on a SSD that's been in a PS4 for awhile). All the sites that usually discuss this sort of thing (like reddit etc...) are blocked at my workplace, so I can't avail myself of those resources. Perhaps someone else could find someone with some evidence. ;)
 
dragontamer5788
Gerbil Elite
Posts: 647
Joined: Mon May 06, 2013 8:39 am

Re: PlayStation 5

Wed Oct 09, 2019 2:29 pm

Glorious wrote:
dragontamer5788 wrote:
Stay Glorious, Mr. Glorious.


Not gonna change now, no.

Still, you're watering down the initial warning, and I think that's because you realize that maybe you went just a little overboard. ;)


You're the one who hasn't checked SMART data to prove your point, yet make recommendations which may destroy the data of other people. It is you who have to prove that your practices are safe, not me. The simple situation is: hard drives are safe against TRIM issues because hard drives have far more endurance than SSDs (EDIT: I mean write amplification issues. HDDs don't even have TRIM because they don't care about the issue at all). If you wish to recommend to others a potentially dangerous system configuration, be my guest. But I wash my hands of any such damage which may happen.

The simple fact remains: the PS4 fundamentally was not designed with SSDs in mind. PS4 shipped with a hard drive, and their engineering teams are making HDD based assumptions for gameplay, filesystem, and other usage patterns.

If you are so sure about your recommendation, then it is you who should be posting proof, not me. The PS4 ships with a hard drive by default. Swapping from HDD to SDD does come with a (minor) set of risks, and the lack of TRIM means that people should be more careful about testing the potential write-amplification problem. If you got SMART data and think you can prove that its safe, feel free to post it.

This is your argument, not mine. I wash my hands of the risks associated with this procedure.
 
just brew it!
Administrator
Posts: 53995
Joined: Tue Aug 20, 2002 10:51 pm
Location: Somewhere, having a beer

Re: PlayStation 5

Wed Oct 09, 2019 4:29 pm

I'm not sure why this has even turned into an argument. A game console is a device which (in the grand scheme of things) is likely going to make relatively modest demands on the storage device in terms of write traffic. Just because TRIM isn't in use doesn't mean the wear leveling algorithms built into the drive's firmware are disabled; sure there will be more wear and fragmentation than if TRIM was enabled, but it is not like foregoing TRIM is an automatic death sentence.

Unless you're running a workload that does a crapload of random writes, odds are an unTRIMMed SSD is still going to be more reliable (and way faster) than a HDD, especially in a "thermally challenged" environment like a console.
Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
 
Glorious
Gerbilus Supremus
Posts: 12102
Joined: Tue Aug 27, 2002 6:35 pm

Re: PlayStation 5

Wed Oct 09, 2019 4:43 pm

HOLY OVER-REACTION BATMAN!

dragontamer5788 wrote:
You're the one who hasn't checked SMART data to prove your point, yet make recommendations which may destroy the data of other people.


I mean, I can't, because as I repeatedly said, no I don't have a SSD in my PS4

And I was, you know, at work. :roll:

I mean, wow.

Do you even have a PS4? Did it have a SSD in it? Did it die?

Where is this vehemence coming from?

dragontamer5788 wrote:
It is you who have to prove that your practices are safe, not me.


Yes, my suggested idea for putting your mind at ease is indeed "unproven", because I was quite explicit that it wasn't something that I ever did, but rather something that someone could do about it if they were concerned.

Is that theoretical? Sure, but it's grounded in a technical reality, whereas your fears are sort of ... uh... and, ya know, they are contradicted by the practical experience of probably hundreds of thousands.

Not to mention, the actual Sony upgrade page doesn't even say that SSDs are contra-indicated...

dragontamer5788 wrote:
If you wish to recommend to others a potentially dangerous system configuration, be my guest. But I wash my hands of any such damage which may happen.


Be your guest? You just told me off for doing that!

What hospitality!

And why would you bear liability for what *I* said?

Like, seriously, what on earth are you even on about?

---

Bro, chill out. This started because I simply pointed out that "hey, you can upgrade the HDD in the PS3/PS4 already, and hey, people already put SSDs in them!"

I said that because the new one comes with it by default, so it was just like a "heh" thing.

You then say, that SSDs will die an early death.

I then say, well, that hasn't happened to anyone I know nor has it really been reported as any sort of problem generally. Then I simply pointed out that, conceptually, that doesn't make much sense given what consoles actually do with their drives.

But HEY!

Feel free to post after all my posts with a disclaimer that YOU are not to blame for what *I* say. :roll:
 
dragontamer5788
Gerbil Elite
Posts: 647
Joined: Mon May 06, 2013 8:39 am

Re: PlayStation 5

Wed Oct 09, 2019 4:47 pm

just brew it! wrote:
Unless you're running a workload that does a crapload of random writes, odds are an unTRIMMed SSD is still going to be more reliable (and way faster) than a HDD, especially in a "thermally challenged" environment like a console.


At least for Hard Drives, Blackblaze suggests that there is no correlation between temperature and hard drive failure. https://www.backblaze.com/blog/hard-dri ... it-matter/

Bro, chill out.


You too. :-)
 
Glorious
Gerbilus Supremus
Posts: 12102
Joined: Tue Aug 27, 2002 6:35 pm

Re: PlayStation 5

Wed Oct 09, 2019 5:02 pm

dragontamer5788 wrote:
You too.


I'm not even like mad man, just perplexed at the vehemence.

If anyone takes my advice and their ps4 is suddenly all whack or whatever, I don't know, tell me?

Until then, how did this get so serious?

This is an electronic box-thing that allows annoying twelve year olds yell racial slurs at me and boast about illicit substances they've likely never actually touched.

Maybe it -SHOULD- die. :lol:

---

Really, the risk I'm worried about is that the SSD anyone might put into it ends up being a dud, like the Samsung 840 et al. JBI can tell you all about that, I think he unfortunately had a couple. :P
 
dragontamer5788
Gerbil Elite
Posts: 647
Joined: Mon May 06, 2013 8:39 am

Re: PlayStation 5

Wed Oct 09, 2019 5:05 pm

Glorious wrote:
dragontamer5788 wrote:
You too.


I'm not even like mad man, just perplexed at the vehemence.


You're not mad, I'm not mad. EDIT: So we're cool then? I'm fine leaving it off here if you are.

Look, I'm just saying PS4 don't support TRIM. Take it or leave it.
 
just brew it!
Administrator
Posts: 53995
Joined: Tue Aug 20, 2002 10:51 pm
Location: Somewhere, having a beer

Re: PlayStation 5

Wed Oct 09, 2019 6:38 pm

dragontamer5788 wrote:
just brew it! wrote:
Unless you're running a workload that does a crapload of random writes, odds are an unTRIMMed SSD is still going to be more reliable (and way faster) than a HDD, especially in a "thermally challenged" environment like a console.

At least for Hard Drives, Blackblaze suggests that there is no correlation between temperature and hard drive failure. https://www.backblaze.com/blog/hard-dri ... it-matter/

The temperature range they looked at is skewed to the low side, with many drives operating below room temperature, and none above 38C. A JBOD in a chilly datacenter with high RPM fans roaring away is nothing like the thermal environment inside a cramped game console case.

IOW apples and oranges.
Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
 
dragontamer5788
Gerbil Elite
Posts: 647
Joined: Mon May 06, 2013 8:39 am

Re: PlayStation 5

Wed Oct 09, 2019 6:51 pm

just brew it! wrote:
dragontamer5788 wrote:
just brew it! wrote:
Unless you're running a workload that does a crapload of random writes, odds are an unTRIMMed SSD is still going to be more reliable (and way faster) than a HDD, especially in a "thermally challenged" environment like a console.

At least for Hard Drives, Blackblaze suggests that there is no correlation between temperature and hard drive failure. https://www.backblaze.com/blog/hard-dri ... it-matter/

The temperature range they looked at is skewed to the low side, with many drives operating below room temperature, and none above 38C. A JBOD in a chilly datacenter with high RPM fans roaring away is nothing like the thermal environment inside a cramped game console case.

IOW apples and oranges.


Hmmm... that's a fair point. I've looked around for other studies on this issue.

http://static.googleusercontent.com/med ... ilures.pdf

This one goes all the way up to 50C. In particular:

Image

Granted, this is a study from 2007 (probably using older hard drives than that). If anything, this study suggests that 42-ish C is the ideal operating temperature of a hard drive. Going lower (or higher) than that will increase average-failure-rate.
 
just brew it!
Administrator
Posts: 53995
Joined: Tue Aug 20, 2002 10:51 pm
Location: Somewhere, having a beer

Re: PlayStation 5

Wed Oct 09, 2019 7:21 pm

On the low end where the temperature ranges overlap that looks rather inconsistent with Backblaze's results. Might be because it's older-gen drives, or something else entirely (we will probably never know).
Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
 
Krogoth
Gerbil Elder
Posts: 5887
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2003 3:20 pm
Location: somewhere on Core Prime
Contact:

Re: PlayStation 5

Wed Oct 09, 2019 9:49 pm

I don't understand the resistance in using SSD for gaming consoles. It is more like "about gouda-dang time". The units are cheap enough and are leagues ahead of spinners. I'm more surprised that HDDs still persist in budget-minded laptops of all things.
Gigabyte Z390 AORUS-PRO Coffee Lake R 9700K, 2x8GiB of G.Skill DDR4-3600, Sapphire RX Vega 64, Seasonic GX-850 and Fractal Define 7 (W)
Ivy Bridge 3570K, 2x4GiB of G.Skill RIPSAW DDR3-1600, Gigabyte Z77X-UD3H, Corsair CX-750M V2, and PC-7B
 
Amiga500+
Gerbil
Posts: 76
Joined: Wed Sep 21, 2016 2:10 am

Re: PlayStation 5

Thu Oct 10, 2019 5:06 am

Glorious wrote:
You can do that on the PS4, and even the EDIT:PS4 PS3 , right now.


With a bit of fiddling, but yeah, agreed - you can.


Glorious wrote:
Sure, you have to download the system software yourself onto something, and then stick that something into the console, but heck, you just broke out the screwdriver to physically replace the drive, so why not?

What would a more advanced firmware that will automatically format the drive, download the image, and then install it, do for you? A little easier, but that doesn't have anything to do with "Can I replace the drive?"


I was thinking more hot-swap SATA. Really simple, no screwdrivers needed. Its aimed at folks who would immediately be put off by the thought of having to open the case.

I suppose if they are going NVMe, then I don't know if they can be (practically and reliably) slot into the M.2 from external to the case or not. Probably not without some proprietary casing around the NVMe card, which defeats the purpose.


A user upgradeable SSD would allow the PS5 to become a NAS*/media centre/console all in one and future proof it. A 4k film is around 20-25 GB? That's "only" 40-50 films on a 1TB drive.


*a NAS that users could backup their phone storage to via their wifi. I know the missus is forever running out of oneDrive space 'cos of photos/videos and I end up backing up onto the NAS at home - a one click operation for that (via play store app) for the (relatively) technically illiterate might be a decent point of differentiation for PS5 relative to Xbox (or visa versa). I suppose that also raises a secondary point - would there be value in including an additional empty hot swap slot for a 2nd SSD for any user that wants a RAID1 NAS?

Sony already do connect phones to PS4 via app store, this is just taking it one step further.


[and connecting up an external drive isn't always an option if it means clutter around the TV - which leads to an irate wife :D :roll: ]
 
just brew it!
Administrator
Posts: 53995
Joined: Tue Aug 20, 2002 10:51 pm
Location: Somewhere, having a beer

Re: PlayStation 5

Thu Oct 10, 2019 7:28 am

Krogoth wrote:
I don't understand the resistance in using SSD for gaming consoles. It is more like "about gouda-dang time". The units are cheap enough and are leagues ahead of spinners. I'm more surprised that HDDs still persist in budget-minded laptops of all things.

The budget segment is (and always has been) a race to the bottom. Consumers tend to look at capacity before speed, so using HDDs is a good marketing strategy if your #1 goal is to move a lot of cheap systems to people who don't know any better.

TBH we're already at the point where 2.5" HDDs only make sense for portable external storage, and 3.5" HDDs only make sense if you have multiple TBs of data where keeping cost of storage down is the primary concern. </slight-overgeneralization>
Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
 
Glorious
Gerbilus Supremus
Posts: 12102
Joined: Tue Aug 27, 2002 6:35 pm

Re: PlayStation 5

Thu Oct 10, 2019 8:06 am

JBI wrote:
especially in a "thermally challenged" environment like a console.


Yeah, that weird vented V-notch on the top is probably because Sony has tapped out: Yes, people are -STILL- going to shove these things in containments in which both sides are blocked. FINE, YOU WIN HUMANS, the darned thing will intake at the front, and you'll have to actually get inventive in order to block it. :P

Amiga500+ wrote:
I was thinking more hot-swap SATA. Really simple, no screwdrivers needed. Its aimed at folks who would immediately be put off by the thought of having to open the case.


I agree that in principle that would be cool, but the prevailing issue is that the tool-required aspect is more of a feature: you *WANT* a barrier to removal, otherwise prying hands of little ones don't just remove the drive, but perhaps put it back somewhere else (and who knows where or into what!) and then put something that isn't a drive in its place.

And, honestly, not just little hands: humans in general have this weird propensity to pull, prod, and poke. Since most people who understand what a drive is and why they might want to replace it are totally comfortable with a screwdriver (or know someone who is), they'll be alright. The rest of the populace, some limited number of which (but in volume sales, it still be overwhelming) think "cool! the new box has a removable coaster!" ... yeah :lol:

Amiga500+ wrote:
A user upgradeable SSD would allow the PS5 to become a NAS*/media centre/console all in one and future proof it. A 4k film is around 20-25 GB? That's "only" 40-50 films on a 1TB drive.


See, I don't think that's Sony's angle. Microsoft tried going that route with the Xbox One, and it not only has proven retrospectively to not be much of a success, but they suffered from Sony gleefully counter-positioning immediately.

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests
GZIP: On