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SNM
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Tue Oct 16, 2007 1:40 pm

Spotpuff wrote:
The removal of grenades (not sure why that was done... they made the game a lot more fun) and some of the other changes need to be tweaked.

You're whining about overpowered scouts and game imbalance and you can't figure out why they removed grenades!?!?!?!
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Spotpuff
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Tue Oct 16, 2007 1:47 pm

Was it because of uber heavies?

Instead of ad hominem attacks maybe you can point out some flaws in my actual arguments. That's more constructive. If you have nothing else to add then don't; personal attacks detract from the discussion.
 
LowFreq
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Tue Oct 16, 2007 2:17 pm

Why is it that merely stating a position (or facts) that someone else doesn't particularly like or agree with, that position is referred to as "whining"?
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willyolio
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Tue Oct 16, 2007 3:52 pm

Spotpuff wrote:
Was it because of uber heavies?

no dude, it was because every game would degenerate into a grenade spamfest. what your actual class was didn't matter, just throw a whole bunch of grenades at the enemy base/control point.
 
elmopuddy
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Tue Oct 16, 2007 4:44 pm

willyolio wrote:
Spotpuff wrote:
Was it because of uber heavies?

no dude, it was because every game would degenerate into a grenade spamfest. what your actual class was didn't matter, just throw a whole bunch of grenades at the enemy base/control point.


I really like the new system, the balance is quite good IMHO. I have a real good time, especially when I get a good team.

I usually play engineer, or pyro.. BURN BABY BURN!

I haven't even touched EP 2 yet lol.. so many new games, so little time :)
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Spotpuff
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Tue Oct 16, 2007 4:49 pm

I don't know about TFC but QWTF had a friendly fire setting that basically made it so when you shot teammates you damaged yourself, so throwing spam around was an easy way to get yourself killed. They could have just implemented that, or left in utility grenades like the concussion/caltrop grenades, flares, etc. without having damage grenades.

Point taken though I never found the original that spammy, and while respawns were typically held up by some grenades (nail grenade, napalm, spy gas) the respawn timer that is in effect now basically duplicates that effect.
 
Noc
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Tue Oct 16, 2007 4:57 pm

willyolio wrote:
no dude, it was because every game would degenerate into a grenade spamfest. what your actual class was didn't matter, just throw a whole bunch of grenades at the enemy base/control point.


I assume you're talking about type 2 grens? ie. MIRVs, nail grenades, napalm and spy gas? (maybe sniper flares as well)

Only because I don't see how you can type 1 "spam" - that would be like saying shooting rockets is spam.

Anyways if they wanted to fix that spam why not just make it so that you can only hold one of each type 2 grenade and you can only resupply once per respawn?

I just don't see the reason why they removed grenades from the game. Even something harmless like the engineer's EMP grenade shouldn't be considered spam anyways. And there's no way you can make an argument that type 1 grenades are spam. That's just stupid.

And scouts 2 shotting a semi wounded soldier is dumb as well. Let's say I do a rocket jump and a scout runs into me and scatterguns me. and I fire a rocket at him and he scatterguns me again. I'm pretty much dead. How does that make sense.

I understand the idea that the scout is fast and should be able to use that to his advantage in closing distance to maximize damage, but to take off almost 50% of the health of a soldier is a little *too* strong.
 
Spotpuff
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Tue Oct 16, 2007 5:14 pm

Has anyone else been having problems with having servers respond as "server is not responding" whenever trying to join a game?

It's really aggravating to not be able to play for whatever reason; PG2 is off and the firewall is letting HL2 access the net, no other warnings so no idea what is up.
 
LowFreq
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Tue Oct 16, 2007 10:32 pm

Spotpuff wrote:
Has anyone else been having problems with having servers respond as "server is not responding" whenever trying to join a game?



Yep, I get that sometimes. I just figure the server's flaky or its a closed group or clan. :-?
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SNM
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Wed Oct 17, 2007 3:57 am

Spotpuff wrote:
Has anyone else been having problems with having servers respond as "server is not responding" whenever trying to join a game?

The only times I've seen error messages like that are when the server is full. *shrug*
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Spotpuff
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Wed Oct 17, 2007 8:31 am

Could be the server's full but I was trying servers with like 16/24 people and I was still getting the message. I am not sure if servers are programmed to do that when they're full (seems like bad programming) but man it's annoying; I tried 15 servers in a row and couldn't join any.

Also, is anyone able to select the game they want from the Steam server search? Mine just says "All" and has no other options. I only have TF2 installed but I'm getting CSS games et al.
 
eckslax
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Wed Oct 17, 2007 11:41 am

I get that problem from time to time. You need to completely restart Steam.
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Kitoace
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Wed Oct 17, 2007 11:46 am

kitoace on steam , add me and what not always playing TF2 only
 
Dposcorp
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Wed Oct 17, 2007 12:21 pm

Dposcorp on steam....and Tf2 is a ball, although I still suck at it and havent found which dude I can play the best.
 
scare
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Fri Oct 19, 2007 1:16 am

I just got the Orange Box a few days ago. I didn't own any of the games before so the value was great. Been playing a little of the original HL2 and it's nice even though it seems to show its age now.

TF2, however, is real fun. This is coming from someone who is terrible at multiplayer FPSs. I've been playing a Medic mostly with some Soldier on the side. We should get some TR games or whatnot together.
Your mother was a hamster and your father smelt of elderberries.
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morphine
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Fri Oct 19, 2007 9:22 pm

I've gotten TF2 a day after launch (after much trouble with Steam). I played it, found it fun. Then I met sentry guns. Then I tried playing again. And again. I guess I gave up tonight.

Sentry guns are incredibly, horribly overpowered, and can totally ruin the fluidness of a game, turning almost every match into a stupid contest of "lets just play here in this area until hopefully one of them blows up". Sure, they're manageable on their basic level, but how often do you see those?

- A sentry will react in approximately half a second. So sneaking on it is pretty much out of the question.
- It will kill a soldier in, at best, three seconds, usually less. A heavy I don't know, probably not that much more. Any other class is basically toast as soon as you walk into the range of one.
- It will take FOUR soldier rockets to destroy. And, as you can guess, by the time they're all fired, you're dead. If you're lucky to have a corner covering you, you can strafe, shoot, then strafe back. But you'll still get hit, and we're assuming the engineer there is ignoring you.

But "wait", you say. "You can go as demoman". Yeah sure. The only problem is, you can't really go on attacking as a demo, you'll die before even getting to the sentry. "How about spy? They can disable sentries". Suuure... if you're disguised, as the disabling thingie (Sapper?) won't work if you're cloaked. And any engineer worth his salt will spot you immediately. "Ah, just go in as soldier and shoot it!" -> see above points.

In sum, one has to be either very lucky or in a very specific situation in order to do anything about them. Which is almost never. Of course, teamwork will work, but come on, even counting on one or two teammates, how often do you see a single undefended sentry?

I dunno... maybe other people had more luck with their team playing synchronized and whatnot. Just about every match that I played where a couple sentries were laid down just turned into "chicken-and-egg", boring, deadlock games.

I'm not against the concept itself, it's a good idea. But the guns can't react so fast and kill so fast in order for a player to have a reasonable chance against one.
 
LowFreq
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Fri Oct 19, 2007 9:45 pm

morphine, it's nowhere near that hard to take out sentries. If you're reasonably skilled at Soldier or Demo you can do it. It only takes a few well placed rockets or grenades or sticky bombs to destroy one. On a few occasions, I've even walked up behind a sentry as a Pyro and cooked it before it could swing around and kill me - but I had to be right on top of it. I've seen the Scout's shotgun also take them out.

A Sniper can easily kill a sentry because of his range, and any Spy worth his salt can sap one without much fuss, then turn around and backstab an attending Engineer.
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morphine
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Fri Oct 19, 2007 9:51 pm

LowFreq wrote:
morphine, it's nowhere near that hard to take out sentries. If you're reasonably skilled at Soldier or Demo you can do it. It only takes a couple of well placed shots by either to destroy one, not 4 or more. On a few occasions, I've even walked up behind a sentry as a Pyro and cooked it before it could swing around and kill me - but I had to be right on top of it. I've seen the Scout's shotgun also take them out.

An *upgraded* sentry? I repeatedly tried shooting them, I never ever managed to destroy with less than 4 direct rockets. Maybe 3 is possible, but 2 certainly can't be done. Regarding sneaking up on them, that'll have to be a factor of luck. The sentry will have to be shooting something else in order for one to be able to get even close. Regarding scouts, an upgraded sentry will kill them just about instantly.

any Spy worth his salt can sap one without much fuss, then turn around and backstab an attending Engineer.

Sorry, here I just have to flat out disagree. Since you have to be disguised (not cloaked) to use the sapper, the engineer will have to be really dumb not to spot you. "What's this other guy doing coming near my gun here?"
 
LowFreq
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Sat Oct 20, 2007 7:10 am

Then you need to play more and get better. Yes, I'm talking about upgraded sentries.

"Regarding sneaking up on them, that'll have to be a factor of luck. The sentry will have to be shooting something else in order for one to be able to get even close."

Not necessarily. I've done it when the sentry wasn't shooting at anything, but you have to sort of sneak up on it and do your damage quickly. Your Pyro might take some damage but he can survive.

"Regarding scouts, an upgraded sentry will kill them just about instantly."

A Scout is very quick popping back and forth from around a corner or such, and I must say is a very annoying little bastid when doing so. :evil: I've killed sentries that way, but you have to wait until the sentry starts its scanning mode again - not when its still aimed in your direction.

"Sorry, here I just have to flat out disagree. Since you have to be disguised (not cloaked) to use the sapper, the engineer will have to be really dumb not to spot you. "What's this other guy doing coming near my gun here?""

Obviously you have to be quick about it. You sap the turret or Dispenser, and go after the Eng immediately. Most Eng's will defend themselves first, but some will start trying to repair the turret from the sapper for a second or two before they see you - in which case they should end up with a knife in their back. :)
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Pongo
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Sat Oct 20, 2007 9:57 am

Or, if you are working with someone else, I.E. over teamspeak, you can coordinate one person as a spy, and a you or a few others as soldiers. The spy runs in and places the sappers on the sentry(s) and the soldiers run in and blow them up for the few seconds they are disabled. Or, you can do the same with a demoman and sticky grenades if you have to. Demo's are an engineers worst nightmare. As an engineer, there is nothing you can do about a grenade waiting to explode. This game is all about teamwork. It reinforces the fact that lone wolfs are going to be picked of repeatedly. Work together and communicate. The group that I play with (5-6 usually) has not lost more than a few rounds when we are all playing and using teamspeak. Alone, we are not the best (although normally we dominate the upper ranks of our teams) but when we work together, we are pretty damn unstoppable. We normally run out the server if it's late and we are playing on Granary. Teamwork and a couple of scouts can take that map down before the other team knows what is going on. Once again, teamwork. If nothing else, type out the messages while waiting in spawn. Tell someone to be a spy or you be a spy and tell someone else to follow you and blow up the sentry(s) once you have them sapped. :wink:
 
morphine
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Sat Oct 20, 2007 10:52 am

Well all the suggestions are good and I'll give it some more tries, but there's one thing that's still bugging me.

In every time that I walked into the range of a sentry, and I mean *every* time (well, apart from when it was already shooting something else), it instantly (half a second?) turned to me, no matter where I was coming from, and the first direct hit nearly killed me if I was a soldier, or killed me instantly if I was a Scout. And yes, I was gunning and jumping as a Scout. I mean, I can kinda see the possibilities of destroying one, but can't picture how one can do it without being instantly turned to mincemeat.
 
Pongo
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Sat Oct 20, 2007 11:27 am

morphine wrote:
Well all the suggestions are good and I'll give it some more tries, but there's one thing that's still bugging me.

In every time that I walked into the range of a sentry, and I mean *every* time (well, apart from when it was already shooting something else), it instantly (half a second?) turned to me, no matter where I was coming from, and the first direct hit nearly killed me if I was a soldier, or killed me instantly if I was a Scout. And yes, I was gunning and jumping as a Scout. I mean, I can kinda see the possibilities of destroying one, but can't picture how one can do it without being instantly turned to mincemeat.



They are tricky buggers. If you catch one that isn't shooting at someone else, it's gonna get you pretty good. And of course, if the engineer is there repairing all the damage you do, you aren't going to get anywhere. You need help. Medic + soldier/demoman. Or an Uber'd pyro can take down a lot of sentries and the engineers too.. It really focuses on teamwork.
 
morphine
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Sat Oct 20, 2007 11:39 am

Pongo wrote:
They are tricky buggers. If you catch one that isn't shooting at someone else, it's gonna get you pretty good. And of course, if the engineer is there repairing all the damage you do, you aren't going to get anywhere. You need help. Medic + soldier/demoman. Or an Uber'd pyro can take down a lot of sentries and the engineers too.. It really focuses on teamwork.

Yeah, which I guess is never gonna happen :lol: . More to the point, that's the kind of thing that barely ever happens except when a few people are chatting in TS or whatever. Chances of joining a server and having that kind of teamwork happen are... "slim" at best.
 
LowFreq
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Sat Oct 20, 2007 1:57 pm

What you do if you don't have a mic but another teammate does is type "u" (team message) and tell that person to try to coordinate your attacks/defense. Others should be able to hear him, though to reply they will have to stop and type.

Lack of teamwork in this game is the best way to lose. Then of course it doesn't help if you have a couple of complete idiots on your team that won't work together.
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arghwood
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Sat Oct 20, 2007 2:34 pm

I've not been able to afford this yet but I must say I am saddened by the removal of the grenades.... I always thought they forced you to think more and not just run straight in and start blasting, but then I played MegaTF so I am probably just crazy :)
 
SNM
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Sat Oct 20, 2007 3:31 pm

morphine wrote:
Pongo wrote:
They are tricky buggers. If you catch one that isn't shooting at someone else, it's gonna get you pretty good. And of course, if the engineer is there repairing all the damage you do, you aren't going to get anywhere. You need help. Medic + soldier/demoman. Or an Uber'd pyro can take down a lot of sentries and the engineers too.. It really focuses on teamwork.

Yeah, which I guess is never gonna happen :lol: . More to the point, that's the kind of thing that barely ever happens except when a few people are chatting in TS or whatever. Chances of joining a server and having that kind of teamwork happen are... "slim" at best.

It depends on the servers you play on and the crowd you end up in, but generally once you've played a few hours to figure out the rhythms you can figure out the patterns of teamwork and can do it without actually talking. If not (or your teammates haven't), you can always type out messages and the odds are actually not too bad that they'll listen to you. I've managed to coordinate team movements a couple times over the keyboard, and we totally pwned when doing that.
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GokuSS2
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Sat Oct 20, 2007 6:55 pm

Fully Upgraded sentry gets owned by Heavy+Medic.
 
morphine
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Sat Oct 20, 2007 7:41 pm

Well just got out of another attempt at playing this. I give up. All of the sentry gun strategies posted here are great in themselves, but unfortunately none of them work unless there's only the engineer around. That only ever happens, *if* ones is lucky, in the CTF games.

In its essence, with these sentry guns, all that the game always boils down to is the usual "chokepoint" style of play, so ever-present in Counter-Strike (and the reason why I hate CS): the game will always end up being choked at point X, Y, or Z, then all the battle happens in that exact spot. No fluidness, and becomes boring quickly. Different strokes for different folks I guess.

Please note that this does not invalidate the assertion that the game is very fun with enough teamwork, but that's very very very hard to come by in a random server you join with people you don't know. Might be a fun game, but definitely too repetitive and formulaic for me.
 
mongoosesRawesome
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Sat Oct 20, 2007 8:26 pm

morphine wrote:
Well just got out of another attempt at playing this. I give up. All of the sentry gun strategies posted here are great in themselves, but unfortunately none of them work unless there's only the engineer around. That only ever happens, *if* ones is lucky, in the CTF games.

In its essence, with these sentry guns, all that the game always boils down to is the usual "chokepoint" style of play, so ever-present in Counter-Strike (and the reason why I hate CS): the game will always end up being choked at point X, Y, or Z, then all the battle happens in that exact spot. No fluidness, and becomes boring quickly. Different strokes for different folks I guess.

Please note that this does not invalidate the assertion that the game is very fun with enough teamwork, but that's very very very hard to come by in a random server you join with people you don't know. Might be a fun game, but definitely too repetitive and formulaic for me.


we should set up a TR server
 
Gandhi
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Sun Oct 21, 2007 9:20 am

mongoosesRawesome wrote:

we should set up a TR server


Seconded! Closed server a la UT2k4 set up.
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