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ozzuneoj
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Can't believe I'm saying this...

Sat Sep 05, 2015 10:12 pm

... so, earlier today a friend of mine who is very musically inclined showed me the app GarageBand and played a fantastic song that he wrote and recorded entirely on his iPad Air 2. He can play drums, guitar and bass and has a recording setup, but he just did it on the iPad because it was so much easier.

I played with GarageBand and was incredibly impressed with how easy it is to use, and the quality of the results was surprising.

Much to my dismay, I've since realized that this is an Apple application and no true equivalent exists on Android. I tried WalkBand, and it was neat but the quality wasn't even close and on my Touchpad running Android 4.1 there is a small input-delay that makes it nearly impossible to keep a rhythm. I've read that this is a problem with Android, and I'm not sure if it exists on newer devices. But even if it doesn't, GarageBand seems far more useful.

I'm into all sorts of types of music from death metal to chiptune, though I mostly prefer progressive metal... but some times I just get a tune in my head and wish I could make it happen and save\record it for later. I've tried learning instruments, and did play a little bit of guitar years ago but wasn't able to stick with it. I simply don't have the time for another time consuming hobby. A quick and easy music creation app is more my speed.

So... I'm actually going to type these words...

If I wanted something like this... should I actually consider getting a cheap refurb iPad (probably a 3rd gen or better) to do this? Or is there a decent alternative I've missed? I really don't need to spend money on this kind of thing, its just something that has sounded interesting to me in recent years and GarageBand is the first application I've seen that seemed close to what I've been looking for.

I see lots of free PC options, but it seems like they all have two or three of the following weaknesses: Poor interface, poor accessibility, high learning curve, poor quality audio samples...

Help me. I don't want to get sucked into Apple world... :oops:
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Atradeimos
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Re: Can't believe I'm saying this...

Sat Sep 05, 2015 11:31 pm

ozzuneoj wrote:
If I wanted something like this... should I actually consider getting a cheap refurb iPad (probably a 3rd gen or better) to do this? Or is there a decent alternative I've missed? I really don't need to spend money on this kind of thing, its just something that has sounded interesting to me in recent years and GarageBand is the first application I've seen that seemed close to what I've been looking for.


I'm not a music person, unfortunately, so I can't help too much with GarageBand alternatives. Have you already tried Studio One? They have a feature limited free version, but I can't really tell if it fits what you're looking for.

Do you feel like you need a 10" tablet for a good GarageBand experience? If not, the latest iPod touch ($200) or the iPad Mini 2 ($300) might be good alternatives. They have more modern SoCs than the 3rd gen iPad, so they'll likely serve you better for longer. I imagine you could <choke> drop by an Apple store and try it out on those devices.
 
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Re: Can't believe I'm saying this...

Sun Sep 06, 2015 1:11 am

ozzuneoj wrote:
Help me. I don't want to get sucked into Apple world... :oops:


You won't be sucked into anything. Use the right tool for the job. That could mean iPad today, Surface tomorrow. You're not bound to any particular product.
 
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Re: Can't believe I'm saying this...

Sun Sep 06, 2015 2:27 am

ozzuneoj wrote:
I'm into all sorts of types of music from death metal to chiptune, though I mostly prefer progressive metal... but some times I just get a tune in my head and wish I could make it happen and save\record it for later. I've tried learning instruments, and did play a little bit of guitar years ago but wasn't able to stick with it. I simply don't have the time for another time consuming hobby. A quick and easy music creation app is more my speed.

Hey... this is a pretty good description of me too! (Except for the chiptunes part...)

Over the past couple of years I've dabbled a bit with MIDI sequencing/editing software on Linux, but it can be pretty tedious to use and seems to get in the way as much as it helps, when trying to put that tune in your head into listenable form.
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Re: Can't believe I'm saying this...

Sun Sep 06, 2015 6:18 am

LASR wrote:
ozzuneoj wrote:
Help me. I don't want to get sucked into Apple world... :oops:


You won't be sucked into anything. Use the right tool for the job. That could mean iPad today, Surface tomorrow. You're not bound to any particular product.


Quoted for truth. If you think of it in terms of getting sucked into Apple vs PC world - you're going to get sucked into one of these worlds.

As an aside, there's a good reason why Apple products are expensive.
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Convert
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Re: Can't believe I'm saying this...

Sun Sep 06, 2015 9:03 am

Lights did one of her songs on an iPad on the album Little Machines, at least the general idea of it.

Gorillaz did the entire album The Fall on one and used the following apps: Speak It! Text to Speech, SoundyThingie, Mugician, Sylo Synthesiser, Sylo Synthesiser Pro, Synth, FunkBox Drum Machine, gliss, AmpliTube for iPad, XENON Groove Synthesizer, KORG iELECTRIBE, bs-16i, Mellotronics M3000 for iPad, Cleartune – Chromatic Tuner, iORGEL HD, olsynth, StudioMini XL Recording Studio, Bassline, Harmonizer, Dub Siren Pro, Moog Filtatron. Maybe check out some of those too and see how you like them.
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meerkt
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Re: Can't believe I'm saying this...

Sun Sep 06, 2015 9:47 am

Android had/has deficiencies in its audio stack when it comes to latency. Apparently iOS is still better, but it should be much more usable in Android 5.xx, perhaps depending on the specific device. v4.1 is really not the best showcase.

https://source.android.com/devices/audi ... ments.html
http://superpowered.com/latency/
 
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Re: Can't believe I'm saying this...

Sun Sep 06, 2015 10:58 am

Crayon Shin Chan wrote:
As an aside, there's a good reason why Apple products are expensive.

don't kid yourself, it's to line the pockets of the investors, nothing else. They can price their products high because they're very good (often the best) and people are willing to pay for that, but that doesn't mean that all that extra money that people are paying goes into engineering the best hardware and software stack for what you need, it merely needs to be good enough. And for audio products, it is currently good enough where-as Android missed the boat on that, even if they have catched up now
Last edited by Firestarter on Sun Sep 06, 2015 11:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Re: Can't believe I'm saying this...

Sun Sep 06, 2015 11:00 am

meerkt wrote:
Android had/has deficiencies in its audio stack when it comes to latency.

I'm not familiar with the details of the Android audio stack, but if it's anything like the default audio stack used by most Linux distros I'm not surprised. One of the first things I do when setting up a new Linux box is slip JACK in underneath the default PulseAudio stack. This gives me an alternate audio path for applications that understand JACK and can benefit from the lower latency, while preserving PulseAudio/ALSA compatibility (so applications like web browsers can still play audio).
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Atradeimos
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Sun Sep 06, 2015 3:20 pm

Firestarter wrote:
They can price their products high because they're very good (often the best) and people are willing to pay for that, but that doesn't mean that all that extra money that people are paying goes into engineering the best hardware and software stack for what you need, it merely needs to be good enough.


What you say about pricing power is very true.

However:

Image

These are two identically priced phones. Which would you say is better engineered?
 
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Re: Can't believe I'm saying this...

Sun Sep 06, 2015 3:50 pm

Recording on an iPad is such a breeze. My Avid interface has a cable for it, and Garage Band just recognizes the interface. Plug in a mic and go. It's a nice touch that helps you get quickly into what you want to do. Big fan. Some limitations, like you can't multi-mic a set but you can do stereo overheads. And the project pull into Mac GB and Logic. Wish I still had a use for the hardware still, but it's fun to do
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Convert
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Re: Can't believe I'm saying this...

Sun Sep 06, 2015 3:55 pm

Atradeimos wrote:


Your picture is stupid.

Image

Which burger has more pickles on it?
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Atradeimos
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Re: Can't believe I'm saying this...

Sun Sep 06, 2015 4:30 pm

Convert wrote:

Your picture is stupid.



The picture links to a post that explains it.

Free advisory of the day - posting "I don't understand" will usually get you further than "this is stupid."

Edit: Deleted initial pithy response in favor of a more neutral outlook.
Last edited by Atradeimos on Sun Sep 06, 2015 5:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
meerkt
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Re:

Sun Sep 06, 2015 4:45 pm

Atradeimos wrote:
These are two identically priced phones. Which would you say is better engineered?
Based only on the photo, maybe the bottom one. The micro USB jack is closer to the front of the device, so it's more likely that even with a bulky plug it could lie flat on a table when charging.
 
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Re: Re:

Sun Sep 06, 2015 4:53 pm

meerkt wrote:
Atradeimos wrote:
These are two identically priced phones. Which would you say is better engineered?
Based only on the photo, maybe the bottom one. The micro USB jack is closer to the front of the device, so it's more likely that even with a bulky plug it could lie flat on a table when charging.


Yes true, but both phones have a giant camera module sticking out the back and one doesn't use micro USB.

The picture links to a post that explains it, FYI.
 
Convert
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Re: Can't believe I'm saying this...

Sun Sep 06, 2015 5:10 pm

Atradeimos wrote:
The picture links to a post that explains it.

Free advisory of the day - posting "I don't understand" will usually get you further than "this is stupid."

Edit: Deleted initial pithy response in favor of a more neutral outlook.


You assume I didn't understand what the stupid picture is implying.
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Re: Can't believe I'm saying this...

Sun Sep 06, 2015 5:13 pm

Convert wrote:

You assume I didn't understand what the stupid picture is implying.


Yes I am, because of the content of your response.
 
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Re: Can't believe I'm saying this...

Sun Sep 06, 2015 5:19 pm

Then you didn't understand my response.
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Atradeimos
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Re: Can't believe I'm saying this...

Sun Sep 06, 2015 5:21 pm

Convert wrote:
Then you didn't understand my response.


I thought I did. Care to elaborate?
 
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Re: Can't believe I'm saying this...

Sun Sep 06, 2015 5:37 pm

Convert wrote:
Then you didn't understand my response.

Nobody did.
 
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Re: Can't believe I'm saying this...

Sun Sep 06, 2015 5:50 pm

Talking straight not a thing anymore?
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Re: Can't believe I'm saying this...

Sun Sep 06, 2015 6:52 pm

I clicked through on your ridiculous picture and if details are so important that dude *really* should take better care care of his nails, that thumb in the final photo is a damn sight more more disturbing than the usb port being intentionally(?) towards the top of the phone :o Oh and he really should have those phones either horizontal or vertical, the aliasing on those centre lines is upsetting.

As for the which has more pickles question the answer is orange.
 
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Re: Can't believe I'm saying this...

Sun Sep 06, 2015 7:17 pm

1. The picture you posted is about design, not really engineering. I'm sure you'd be eager to get in to the pedantics of it but it was a design decision here, not an engineering one and it shows no great engineering prowess to line up holes in the way that they did. Most people use the terms interchangeably so either way I guess I know what you are getting at. Over-engineering is bad engineering, and one could say making sure unrelated holes line up for visuals would be bad engineering. Your whole argument then boils down to their product having more attention to visual design details, which no one would argue against and Firestarter isn't talking about.

2. There are so many more important things than hole alignment. Hence the burgers, there are many merits to a product. Hole alignment for visuals, is at the back of the book, last paragraph, bottom line and is written up the side of the page in tiny letters because you ran out of room with all the arguably important stuff.

3. Using a picture to show unrelated hole alignment to imply anything more than Apple's desire for the phone to be visually consistent is stupid. You can't even imply that they were so detailed about how the holes aligned, that the rest of the phone is better in any way than a phone that doesn't have unrelated holes aligned.

4. Because you posted this picture and used it in the way that you did, it was clear it was a complete waste of time to change your opinion or debate this issue. An equally stupid picture asking a equally stupid question was the only good response because it at least provided a equal "WTF does that have to do with anything".

5. I guess if you wanted a more apples to apples comparison I could have photoshoped the burgers still wrapped and asked which ones were assembled closest to their marketing material. Clearly the ones that pay more attention to their wrapping paper design also make a better burger in every conceivable way.
Last edited by Convert on Sun Sep 06, 2015 7:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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localhostrulez
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Re: Can't believe I'm saying this...

Sun Sep 06, 2015 7:31 pm

Even so - the point is paying attention to the little fine details that make a product nice. If Samsung couldn't be bothered to align things, what else did they cut corners on? Plenty of merit if you ask me.
 
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Re: Can't believe I'm saying this...

Sun Sep 06, 2015 7:38 pm

Pizzapotamus wrote:
I clicked through on your ridiculous picture and if details are so important


They may not be important to a lot of people, but they indicate one phone has been designed with more care than the other. I'm not saying that should matter to you, I'm using it to refute the statement that all hardware is designed to be "good enough."

Pizzapotamus wrote:
than the usb port being intentionally(?) towards the top of the phone :o


Why would it be intentional? A bulky USB connector? But the phone can't lie flat anyway, with a camera bump on the back.
 
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Re: Can't believe I'm saying this...

Sun Sep 06, 2015 7:48 pm

localhostrulez wrote:
Even so - the point is paying attention to the little fine details that make a product nice. If Samsung couldn't be bothered to align things, what else did they cut corners on? Plenty of merit if you ask me.

No. Niceness wasn't part of the conversation. If you use that logic you can say that because they spent so much time slapping a fancy coat of paint on the fence what did they not pay attention to? What did they have to skimp on to keep the costs down? All vendors tend to get their issues blown out of proportion, Apple included , but I've known first hand some of their WTF mistakes.

In Apples case it is true that they tend to make not only visually pleasing products but solid hardware, but it's not always true and it does not mean that a competitor can't make a equally good or superior phone from a hardware/software point of view.
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Re: Can't believe I'm saying this...

Sun Sep 06, 2015 8:43 pm

localhostrulez wrote:
Even so - the point is paying attention to the little fine details that make a product nice. If Samsung couldn't be bothered to align things, what else did they cut corners on? Plenty of merit if you ask me.


Have you felt how cheap Apple(Foxconn) stuff is compared to better manufacturers? Who cares where the holes are lol.

Do an ACTUAL engineering analysis. Dont pretend that hole alignment implies poorly engineered hardware.

Foxconn is also one of the worst Chinese manufacturers, so even if Apple phones were engineered well theyre MANUFACTURED POORLY which undermines all their careful hole aligning.
 
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Re: Can't believe I'm saying this...

Sun Sep 06, 2015 8:53 pm

Atradeimos wrote:
Why would it be intentional?

Could be the difference between using off-the-shelf components and connectors vs. more costly custom ones. If aesthetics get highest priority, sometimes compromises will need to be made on cost or functionality.
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Re: Can't believe I'm saying this...

Sun Sep 06, 2015 8:57 pm

It could also be that someone sacrificed electrical performance, mechanical strength, efficient use of space and manufacturing costs in the name of matching a design aesthetic. That sort of prioritization is bad engineering.
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Re: Can't believe I'm saying this...

Sun Sep 06, 2015 10:01 pm

Convert wrote:
1. The picture you posted is about design, not really engineering. I'm sure you'd be eager to get in to the pedantics of it but it was a design decision here, not an engineering one and it shows no great engineering prowess to line up holes in the way that they did.


Your statement would be true if you were referring to holes in a tower, or a cheeseburger wrapper. It's not true for an integrated mobile device. The mic behind the mic hole needs to be centered perfectly. It needs to be connected to the SoC via a codec, usually with a flexible printed circuit. The speaker holes likewise need to line up with the actual speaker module design, or you'll lose acoustic volume. The dock connector needs to be strong enough to withstand thousands of cycles. All of these components need to coexist within the lower antenna volume, and operate to spec without messing up the functionality of the antenna. There is a non trivial amount of engineering effort that goes into making that happen.

Convert wrote:
Most people use the terms interchangeably so either way I guess I know what you are getting at. Over-engineering is bad engineering, and one could say making sure unrelated holes line up for visuals would be bad engineering. Your whole argument then boils down to their product having more attention to visual design details, which no one would argue against and Firestarter isn't talking about.

2. There are so many more important things than hole alignment. Hence the burgers, there are many merits to a product. Hole alignment for visuals, is at the back of the book, last paragraph, bottom line and is written up the side of the page in tiny letters because you ran out of room with all the arguably important stuff.


Unlike a burger wrapper the holes are also functional. You can't separate the visual design of it from the engineering aspects. I'm not saying it's a better engineering compromise, I'm saying that it's not the sort of decision that reeks of a "good enough" type product. It says that someone thought about the placement, for better or worse, they didn't say "do whatever" and leave it at that.

Convert wrote:
3. Using a picture to show unrelated hole alignment to imply anything more than Apple's desire for the phone to be visually consistent is stupid. You can't even imply that they were so detailed about how the holes aligned, that the rest of the phone is better in any way than a phone that doesn't have unrelated holes aligned.


I admit that I could made my initial case better. But... Hear me out.

The argument made in the linked article, and the one I'm trying to make, is that attention to detail is an outcome of the company's focus and culture. Companies generally don't put a huge amount of attention on the little things like hole alignment, and then say "oh I dunno, put the SoC wherever in the product." They'll try and figure out the best place to put it from the perspective of thermals, power delivery, signal routing etc. with the same care as they did with the holes.

This is because the engineering and design teams need to work closely together to make it happen, and ultimately they all report to the same authority (CEO or VP). The higher ups won't enforce external visual design (holes) without also enforcing the engineering decisions similarly (well, why did you put the SoC there? can we make it better? etc.).

Convert wrote:
4. Because you posted this picture and used it in the way that you did, it was clear it was a complete waste of time to change your opinion or debate this issue. An equally stupid picture asking a equally stupid question was the only good response because it at least provided a equal "WTF does that have to do with anything".


Again, mea culpa for the first post.

But you could also have started with "WTF does that have to do with anything" in your initial response, and I would've at least tried to make my position more clear. By dismissing it out of hand, you're saying you're not going to change your opinion either, and you're not interested in listening to a reasoned argument.

Convert wrote:
5. I guess if you wanted a more apples to apples comparison I could have photoshoped the burgers still wrapped and asked which ones were assembled closest to their marketing material. Clearly the ones that pay more attention to their wrapping paper design also make a better burger in every conceivable way.


That would be a very good analogy for something like a desktop, where you can stick the same ATX motherboard into a variety of different cases with varying amounts of blinginess. It doesn't work for a smartphone, because the "shell" that you're comparing to a hamburger wrapper is also a functional part of the phone (antenna, provides durability, ground return etc.).

Putting a good burger in a bad wrapper will still result in a good burger. Putting a good phone into a badly designed or badly thought out chassis can limit the performance of the phone.

Convert wrote:
In Apples case it is true that they tend to make not only visually pleasing products but solid hardware


Firestone said that it was "good enough" hardware. I'm arguing that the "solid hardware" as you describe it isn't the lowest common denominator they could possibly ship. I'm not saying it's the best phone on the market for all people, or anything like that.

Convert wrote:
but it's not always true and it does not mean that a competitor can't make a equally good or superior phone from a hardware/software point of view.


Totally agreed! The way I read Firestone's post was that Apple ships the lowest quality HW/SW that would be remotely acceptable to the market. That's all I'm disagreeing with.

just brew it! wrote:
Could be the difference between using off-the-shelf components and connectors vs. more costly custom ones.


Could be. But wouldn't the off the shelf part be a "good enough" choice, and the expensive custom part speak to something more? After all, the custom design got them something in return. You can get a consistent visual design by centering the connector, and you can plug in the cable any which way that you want.

JustAnEngineer wrote:
It could also be that someone sacrificed electrical performance, mechanical strength, efficient use of space and manufacturing costs in the name of matching a design aesthetic. That sort of prioritization is bad engineering.


You might be right! But it's some sort of prioritization, correct? They didn't say "eh, it looks good enough, let's ship it." So is it still "good enough" hardware? Or one better?

BlackDove wrote:
Have you felt how cheap Apple(Foxconn) stuff is compared to better manufacturers? Who cares where the holes are lol.


I'm very curious about these better manufacturers! Please tell me more about them. Also just FYI, Foxconn doesn't just make Apple products.

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