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My guess is that this should still be classified somewhat as rumor but yikes. http://www.sammobile.com/2016/12/06/exclusive-galaxy-s8-is-not-going-to-feature-a-3-5mm-headphone-jack/

I'm more of an Apple guy myself, for mobile stuff, but I think this trend is dumb.

A bit more startling was the note and link about halfway down indicating that Samsung just bought Harman for $8bn.  That's pretty stunning, Harman itself had already vacuumed up a number of audio companies including Tymphany Denmark, JBL, and Infinity in recent years.

I'm very much not an Apple guy and I think this trend is dumb.

Samsung can go DIAF... oh wait.

I blame Lenovo. The Moto Z started this nonsense. Apple was just stupid enough to call it "courage".

The Galaxy S7 is not a bad phone, all things considered. I'm on the Nougat beta and either Samsung or Google seems to have figured out the idle battery use. I don't use it much since it's a work device, and it's been off the charger for 3 days and 20 hours. Still at 50% battery life. For that reason I'm a little more optimistic about Android flagships in 2017.

Sucks through the battery when it's in use, though. Not much the software can do about that when the hardware is just cranked up.

At least the S8 will have a standard USB Type-C port. While I don't agree with removing the port, my problem with Apple doing it is that no other product line uses a lightening connector, including their own laptop and desktop lines. The point being that if you purchase headphones that are native lightening rather than using a dongle you can only use said headphones on iOS devices. Native Type-C headphones can be used on a wider range of devices.

Wireless headphones? No thanks...one more thing to recharge. And you thought exploding batteries in your pocket was bad...

Insert "can't charge the device while using headphones" comment, as well. Although a fair number of newer devices on the market do support wireless charging now.

I don't see the point in removing the headphone jack. Apparently all Apple did with all that saved space was... fill it with plastic. This isn't a feature, it is the removal of a hardware feature for the sake of removing a hardware feature. What's next, no physical volume buttons?
All this phone "innovation" makes me want to stick with my One Plus One forever.

I hope my LG G4 lasts a long time. The smartphone market is getting stupid.

just brew it! wrote:

I hope my LG G4 lasts a long time. The smartphone market is getting stupid.

Lack of a headphone jack does seem like a good way to reduce casual upgrades. Then again, maybe it will be differentiation - people like having options. In my case, the option of not needing to recharge my headset.

southrncomfortjm wrote:

I don't see the point in removing the headphone jack.

Point is: reduce device thickness by 0.2mm, and sell accessories.

Still see no reason to "upgrade" from my Note 3.  I use it to talk and text and watch youtube videos.  I'm good for a while yet.

If the Note 7 explosions are really caused by the little space tolerance due to a thin design, how is going even thinner a good direction? We either get more explosions, or battery capacity suffers.

meerkt wrote:

southrncomfortjm wrote:

I don't see the point in removing the headphone jack.

Point is: reduce device thickness by 0.2mm, and sell accessories.

Indeed. It is no coincidence that Apple and Samsung both have a big presence in the Bluetooth audio accessories market.

gmskking wrote:

Still see no reason to "upgrade" from my Note 3.  I use it to talk and text and watch youtube videos.  I'm good for a while yet.

I have an LG Optimus Pro. I have a 1st-Gen Moto-X. I have a Samsung Galaxy SIII. These are phones are different: in price-point, in years released, in feature set, in manufacturer.

Guess what they all have in common? Well, besides the fact they all still run fine today with no input delay.

The CPU. Snapdragon S4 Pro, to be specific. Was that used in every phone ever? I apparently bought the same damn phone at least three times, sometimes as an upgrade to itself.

I guess the good news is that a APU from 2012 is still usable with modern apps?

ludi wrote:

A bit more startling was the note and link about halfway down indicating that Samsung just bought Harman for $8bn.  That's pretty stunning, Harman itself had already vacuumed up a number of audio companies including Tymphany Denmark, JBL, and Infinity in recent years.

I heard about this and am not surprised. Harmon made the head unit in recent Porsches and Jeeps. I'm pretty sure this is why Samsung acquired them.

Even as an audiophile, I'm being slightly more cautious about criticising Apple & Samsung this time, as Apple received the same criticism when they released the iMac all those years ago with no PS/2 port, only USB, and again when they ditched VGA/DVI in favour of mini display port. Apple's approach has been to push better technologies not by phasing out the older technologies, but by going cold turkey and forcing the industry to scramble and adapt. For Samsung to follow suit with Apple despite their fierce competition suggests this really is something that has to happen.

The 3.5mm audio jack is the last 'standard' jack out there that is entirely analog, and thus very limited. One might call it the VGA of audio. The audio source quality is at the mercy of the DAC in the source device (e.g the iPhone), while many argue that for headphones in particular, it is better for the DAC to reside in the headphones themselves as it can be tailored to the perfections and imperfections of that specific model.

That said, I think it's a bit silly that Apple is pushing USB-C for their MacBook's, but sticking with Lightning for their iPhones/iPads. I hope this changes soon. I also admit that, as an iPhone 7 user, it's very frustrating having to rely on an adapter to hook up speakers/headphones. But I think this is a temporary issue as bluetooth receivers, USB-C, etc becomes more standard.

So what would a digital connection offer over 3.5mm?
Some off the top of my head..
- Support both input & output, simulteanously or no.
- No buzz when connecting/disconnecting, or interference.
- Smaller jacks
- Being USB, just about any other feature somebody wants to throw into a headset or pair of speakers.

-R

RhysAndrews wrote:

The 3.5mm audio jack is the last 'standard' jack out there that is entirely analog, and thus very limited. One might call it the VGA of audio. The audio source quality is at the mercy of the DAC in the source device (e.g the iPhone), while many argue that for headphones in particular, it is better for the DAC to reside in the headphones themselves as it can be tailored to the perfections and imperfections of that specific model.

I suppose there's some merit to that argument. OTOH, it is redundant and results in higher cost to the consumer; and imperfections in the frequency response of the headphones could also be corrected by a suitable EQ curve on the device driving it. Anyone who cares enough about fidelity to notice won't mind taking an extra few minutes to tailor the EQ settings.

Furthermore, having an analog jack doesn't stop people from using digital headphones with an integrated DAC, but omitting the analog jack *does* stop people from using their preferred analog headphones (unless they use an external adapter dongle). Dropping the 3.5" limits or inconveniences end users, whereas keeping it does not.

RhysAndrews wrote:

That said, I think it's a bit silly that Apple is pushing USB-C for their MacBook's, but sticking with Lightning for their iPhones/iPads. I hope this changes soon. I also admit that, as an iPhone 7 user, it's very frustrating having to rely on an adapter to hook up speakers/headphones. But I think this is a temporary issue as bluetooth receivers, USB-C, etc becomes more standard.

Yes, can't even get their own story straight. Would've never happened under Jobs.

RhysAndrews wrote:

So what would a digital connection offer over 3.5mm?
Some off the top of my head..
- Support both input & output, simulteanously or no.
- No buzz when connecting/disconnecting, or interference.
- Smaller jacks
- Being USB, just about any other feature somebody wants to throw into a headset or pair of speakers.

Not really arguing with most of that. My beef with eliminating 3.5mm is that it limits consumer choice, increases cost, and forces use of additional dongles if you want to continue using analog headphones. I really don't see a pressing need for smaller jacks, given that human factors engineering and mechanical durability issues independently put limits on how small/thin a device can be made.

just brew it! wrote:

RhysAndrews wrote:

The 3.5mm audio jack is the last 'standard' jack out there that is entirely analog, and thus very limited. One might call it the VGA of audio. The audio source quality is at the mercy of the DAC in the source device (e.g the iPhone), while many argue that for headphones in particular, it is better for the DAC to reside in the headphones themselves as it can be tailored to the perfections and imperfections of that specific model.

I suppose there's some merit to that argument. OTOH, it is redundant and results in higher cost to the consumer; and imperfections in the frequency response of the headphones could also be corrected by a suitable EQ curve on the device driving it. Anyone who cares enough about fidelity to notice won't mind taking an extra few minutes to tailor the EQ settings.

Furthermore, having an analog jack doesn't stop people from using digital headphones with an integrated DAC, but omitting the analog jack *does* stop people from using their preferred analog headphones (unless they use an external adapter dongle). Dropping the 3.5" limits or inconveniences end users, whereas keeping it does not.

Exactly my problem with this. Having a digital output only means you will have to use active devices, meaning you need more hardware just to listen to audio. I tend to use my Creative EP-830 in-ears to listen to music while biking or working out. Having digital connections means I have to lug around more stuff. More points of failure (simplest being another empty battery) or in the case of wireless in-ears easier to lose.
Also I use the 3.5mm jack in my car as a cheap carkit which works perfectly, and as there are still quite a lot of cars without (good) bluetooth interfaces not having a jack would just suck.

Now using the usb dac would have another problem, being that it is impossible to charge the phone while using the USB port as usb-host, which again is kind of a big problem in a car, like when using the phone for gps navigation.

besides, in those cases (car/bike/workout) I really don't care that much about the audio quality, because I won't be able to hear the difference in those environments anyway.

RhysAndrews wrote:

So what would a digital connection offer over 3.5mm?
Some off the top of my head..
- Support both input & output, simulteanously or no.
- No buzz when connecting/disconnecting, or interference.
- Smaller jacks
- Being USB, just about any other feature somebody wants to throw into a headset or pair of speakers.

- input & output is supported with the 3.5mm audio jack too.
- buzz... it's not like you are continuously connecting-disconnecting the devices.
- Smaller jacks... why? who cares? there seems to be enough room for a 3.5mm jack, which will only be replaced by cheap plastic. This is only a plus for the manufacturers, not us consumers.
- Being usb, you won't be able to use the single usb port for any other device anymore.
Also, you mention dac quality in the phone. Having a good dac in an active headphone/speaker, costs a lot more money than passive headphones. Which will probably result in lots of cheap active headphones being sold which will probably sound worse than that DAC in the current phones.
As far as I can see, this is only good for the device manufacturers, not the consumer.

Bonusbartus wrote:

- input & output is supported with the 3.5mm audio jack too.

But only for mono audio.

Bonusbartus wrote:

- buzz... it's not like you are continuously connecting-disconnecting the devices.

And nobody's forcing you to use analog, even with current devices; so if the buzz is an issue for you, you have the option of using a USB or Bluetooth device whether the 3.5mm is there or not.

just brew it! wrote:

Bonusbartus wrote:

- input & output is supported with the 3.5mm audio jack too.

But only for mono audio.

Bonusbartus wrote:

- buzz... it's not like you are continuously connecting-disconnecting the devices.

And nobody's forcing you to use analog, even with current devices; so if the buzz is an issue for you, you have the option of using a USB or Bluetooth device whether the 3.5mm is there or not.

I agree on the second part, the first not entirely:

I agree that tuning the DAC (and Amp!) to the headphones in particular *may* help with audio quality, but it's not like the typical in-ear/on-ear sets used most with phones are broadly different, as a quiet DAC and an amp good for 50Ohms is usually plenty.

Now, for my HD600's? I'll keep my O2/ODAC .

Bonusbartus wrote:

just brew it! wrote:

Bonusbartus wrote:

- input & output is supported with the 3.5mm audio jack too.

But only for mono audio.

Bonusbartus wrote:

- buzz... it's not like you are continuously connecting-disconnecting the devices.

And nobody's forcing you to use analog, even with current devices; so if the buzz is an issue for you, you have the option of using a USB or Bluetooth device whether the 3.5mm is there or not.

I agree on the second part, the first not entirely:

What I meant was that simultaneous input and output is only supported if one of the directions is mono. The leftmost connector in that pic has L/R stereo connections (for the headphones) and a single mono connection (for the mic). Sorry for not being clearer.

They could've used TRS or TRRS as dual-function legacy audio + modern digital.

Probably difficult to manage impedance for high speed digital through a TRS style connector...

You don't need much bandwidth for audio. But if that's a problem, they could've created a new backward compatible hybrid connector.

Yeah, I suppose that's true; even USB 1.x speeds are sufficient for uncompressed CD quality stereo audio, and shoving a USB 1.x signal through a TRS-style connector without mangling it too badly shouldn't be that hard. Anything beyond that (e.g. USB 2.0) is probably gonna be challenging though (and hey, if you're pushing a new standard it would be a shame to not support higher resolution formats like 24/96, to keep the audiophiles happy).