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Re: Windows 10 on ARM Check-In: a smouldering dumpster fire

Sun Apr 01, 2018 12:15 am

just brew it! wrote:
End User wrote:
bthylafh wrote:

He's acting out for attention.

This is taking Windows to a bad place. Wake up!

If it is as much of a dumpster fire as you claim, it's not taking Windows anywhere since it will soon be forgotten.

I'm doing what I can to ensure that happens.
 
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Re: Windows 10 on ARM Check-In: a smouldering dumpster fire

Sun Apr 01, 2018 12:21 am

HP cannot even get the always connected part right.

Always-on connectivity is a mixed bag. It has a monthly service fee attached to it. Price sensitive folks are going to ignore it.

My iPad Pro has an eSIM. I use it when travelling and that's it. It's a nice to have but I make do with tethering to my phone for the most part.
 
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Re: Windows 10 on ARM Check-In: a smouldering dumpster fire

Sun Apr 01, 2018 12:46 am

End User wrote:
just brew it! wrote:
If it is as much of a dumpster fire as you claim, it's not taking Windows anywhere since it will soon be forgotten.

I'm doing what I can to ensure that happens.

LOL...

You might want to take a moment to reflect on the fact that you may be doing more harm than good to your cause here. It's analogous to my assertion that Linux evangelists are sometimes their own worst enemy. If you give the impression of being hyper-partisan, a lot of people will ignore you, or even decide you've got a hidden agenda (and assume that the opposite of what you're claiming is more likely to be true).
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Re: Windows 10 on ARM Check-In: a smouldering dumpster fire

Sun Apr 01, 2018 12:52 am

this arm windows only makes sense in a phone, were you can plug your phone in a tv and use a mouse and keyboard to run desktop apps inan office, travel, friend house etc... but the brillant minds at microsoft canceled the phone line and gives us this no-sense-gadget, a"always connected laptop" (everyone has a phone that is always connected) that is the same size than a normal laptop.

simply ridiculous.
 
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Re: Windows 10 on ARM Check-In: a smouldering dumpster fire

Sun Apr 01, 2018 1:12 am

just brew it! wrote:
End User wrote:
just brew it! wrote:
If it is as much of a dumpster fire as you claim, it's not taking Windows anywhere since it will soon be forgotten.

I'm doing what I can to ensure that happens.

LOL...

You might want to take a moment to reflect on the fact that you may be doing more harm than good to your cause here.

I'm posting links to articles written by one of today's most trusted technology journalist. Read his articles and make your own decision.
 
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Re: Windows 10 on ARM Check-In: a smouldering dumpster fire

Sun Apr 01, 2018 1:36 am

End User wrote:
I'm posting links to articles written by one of today's most trusted technology journalist. Read his articles and make your own decision.

OK, I just did that, and my decision is that you've cherry-picked quotes from said journalist's articles which paint things in the worst possible light. Would I ever buy one of these devices myself? No frikkin way! But for certain use cases, they are nowhere near your "dumpster fire" assessment.
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Re: Windows 10 on ARM Check-In: a smouldering dumpster fire

Sun Apr 01, 2018 1:50 am

End User wrote:
one of today's most trusted technology journalist

Paul Thurrott has always used sensationalism, just like Steve Gibson. There's a little truth in what they say, but it's always blown out of proportion or "ZOMG look what I just found!". Personally, I even read between the lines with a lot of what Mary Jo Foley says. She and Paul do have an inside tract, and do get a lot right, but they're not the end all, be all.

Windows 10 on ARM will get there eventually. It might not be the full experience on the first release, and I'm sure quite a bit of that has to do with intel and x86 licensing. I have no doubt there have been a lot of behind the scenes meetings around that part alone. And comparing it to Surface RT is getting old. UWP wasn't around with Surface RT was, for starters. There are many more UWP apps now, Edge is a good browser, extensions exist for Edge, the mobile versions of Office are much better...and even if you do need to run the full version of Office, the x86 Win32 version is still what's recommended for production (even if the emulation is a bit slow at this point in time). Microsoft does not recommend running the x86-64 version of Office for production. Most office extensions will only run on the x86 version anyway.

With regards to x86 apps being slow in current iterations of Windows 10 on ARM, it's stil in development. What a lot of people don't realize is that Microsoft runs a lot of debugging code in the background during Windows (and application) development. Since that would also be emulated I'm sure that contributes to at least some of the sluggishness. Paul Thurrott of all people should know this, but conveniently leaves that fact out. While he is good at putting out other information that no one else does, he also often times leaves out other information that's pertinent to an article and definitely affects the outcome of said articles.
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Re: Windows 10 on ARM Check-In: a smouldering dumpster fire

Sun Apr 01, 2018 11:38 am

curtisb wrote:
With regards to x86 apps being slow in current iterations of Windows 10 on ARM, it's stil in development. What a lot of people don't realize is that Microsoft runs a lot of debugging code in the background during Windows (and application) development. Since that would also be emulated I'm sure that contributes to at least some of the sluggishness. Paul Thurrott of all people should know this, but conveniently leaves that fact out. While he is good at putting out other information that no one else does, he also often times leaves out other information that's pertinent to an article and definitely affects the outcome of said articles.

It’s a shipping product with a price tag of $1,000. He’s telling it like it is. He’s not promising something he knows nothing about.
 
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Re: Windows 10 on ARM Check-In: a smouldering dumpster fire

Sun Apr 01, 2018 1:00 pm

End User wrote:
curtisb wrote:
With regards to x86 apps being slow in current iterations of Windows 10 on ARM, it's stil in development. What a lot of people don't realize is that Microsoft runs a lot of debugging code in the background during Windows (and application) development. Since that would also be emulated I'm sure that contributes to at least some of the sluggishness. Paul Thurrott of all people should know this, but conveniently leaves that fact out. While he is good at putting out other information that no one else does, he also often times leaves out other information that's pertinent to an article and definitely affects the outcome of said articles.

It’s a shipping product with a price tag of $1,000. He’s telling it like it is. He’s not promising something he knows nothing about.

I have to ask, but assuming I do need to use Windows for anything, why would I buy a Windows on ARM device instead of a normal x86-64 one? Especially if the ARM based one is expensive and slow?
 
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Re: Windows 10 on ARM Check-In: a smouldering dumpster fire

Sun Apr 01, 2018 4:48 pm

whm1974 wrote:
I have to ask, but assuming I do need to use Windows for anything, why would I buy a Windows on ARM device instead of a normal x86-64 one? Especially if the ARM based one is expensive and slow?

If that is your only concern, you wouldn't. These are for users who want something specific at the moment, and I have no doubt the platform will improve.

From what I've heard the ARM v8 arch is much better than x86-64 in some ways but I really haven't kept up my ARM knowledge in a while.

Since NV was denied an x86 license they could very possibly develop a proc for this as well, or improve one of their current designs for it.
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Re: Windows 10 on ARM Check-In: a smouldering dumpster fire

Sun Apr 01, 2018 5:12 pm

Reading through the various articles, it does leave the impression that Windows 10 for ARM is half baked. Lack of 64 bit application support is a very big thing to omit.

Performance of the HP device doesn't seem that bad given the hardware but the price would have to be lower to really move units due to superior competitors.

What has me curious is if MS will release a workstation version for ARM due to hardware like this coming down the road.
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Re: Windows 10 on ARM Check-In: a smouldering dumpster fire

Sun Apr 01, 2018 5:15 pm

whm1974 wrote:
I have to ask, but assuming I do need to use Windows for anything, why would I buy a Windows on ARM device instead of a normal x86-64 one? Especially if the ARM based one is expensive and slow?


The silver lining appears to be battery life which is very impressive on mobile.
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Re: Windows 10 on ARM Check-In: a smouldering dumpster fire

Sun Apr 01, 2018 5:17 pm

the wrote:
The silver lining appears to be battery life which is very impressive on mobile.

SHouldn't that be a lithium lining? /s
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Re: Windows 10 on ARM Check-In: a smouldering dumpster fire

Sun Apr 01, 2018 5:19 pm

X64 isn't an omission, it's not done yet, and emulating it is HARD.
as for Thurrot, he's a goof. He blocked me years ago on Twitter for correcting a factual error he made, when I linked him to a source. I can't say I've missed his ridiculous view points.

As for eu and his fanaticism, I think you're wrong, jbi. People will listen to eu, even though he's doing them a disservice. We will end up with fewer options because of behavior like his.

Prices will drop, but these are the first of a few systems on the market. China will join and they'll get CHEAP.
 
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Re: Windows 10 on ARM Check-In: a smouldering dumpster fire

Sun Apr 01, 2018 8:53 pm

sweatshopking wrote:
X64 isn't an omission, it's not done yet, and emulating it is HARD.
as for Thurrot, he's a goof. He blocked me years ago on Twitter for correcting a factual error he made, when I linked him to a source. I can't say I've missed his ridiculous view points.

As for eu and his fanaticism, I think you're wrong, jbi. People will listen to eu, even though he's doing them a disservice. We will end up with fewer options because of behavior like his.

Prices will drop, but these are the first of a few systems on the market. China will join and they'll get CHEAP.

So x86-64 Emulation on 64-bit ARM is on it's way then? So what is the performance per watt of 64-bit ARM CPUs right now?
 
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Re: Windows 10 on ARM Check-In: a smouldering dumpster fire

Sun Apr 01, 2018 9:01 pm

whm1974 wrote:
So x86-64 Emulation on 64-bit ARM is on it's way then? So what is the performance per watt of 64-bit ARM CPUs right now?

I don't have figures at my fingertips for perf/watt when running native 64-bit ARM code, but it is likely decent. Perf/watt emulating x86-64 will almost certainly suck.
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Re: Windows 10 on ARM Check-In: a smouldering dumpster fire

Sun Apr 01, 2018 9:10 pm

I'd buy a Windows 10 on ARM tablet if they made it in a form factor that made sense. Small. Like the old Surface 3 (non-Pro). Not these ridiculously oversized 12"+ monstrosities.

10" roughly iPad sized with 15 hours battery life and you've got a sale right here right now. And not stupid fat bezels like the Surface 3. This is 2018. Am I the only person on earth thinking this way? How mentally deficient are these device manufacturers?

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