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Captain Ned
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Re: 2.5GBASE-T and 5GBASE-T routers available when?

Mon Apr 17, 2017 5:57 pm

Waco wrote:
You only have to route if you're leaving the subnet (going to the Internet) - dumb switches route between machines on the same subnet without having to hit the router.

I knew there was a simple answer my aging brain just hadn't figured out. Like I said, I don't grok the OSI model, so I was having problems figuring out why a device without an IP address could accomplish this.

I know enough about networking to look at a diagram (in the day job) and ask "please explain that decision" (us regulators love open-ended questions). Isn't a whelk's chance in a supernova I'll ever get any networking certs.
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Re: 2.5GBASE-T and 5GBASE-T routers available when?

Tue Apr 18, 2017 7:48 am

I wouldn't hold my breath. Streaming, cloud, Wi-Fi and mobile has made wired LAN more or less irrelevant to the average user, and I dare say the vast majority don't have broadband plans that saturates a 1gbps WAN port. Whatever demand for 2.5/5Gbps is, its gonna be tepid at best.
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Re: 2.5GBASE-T and 5GBASE-T routers available when?

Tue Jun 13, 2017 12:06 pm

Captain Ned wrote:
Waco wrote:
You only have to route if you're leaving the subnet (going to the Internet) - dumb switches route between machines on the same subnet without having to hit the router.

I knew there was a simple answer my aging brain just hadn't figured out. Like I said, I don't grok the OSI model, so I was having problems figuring out why a device without an IP address could accomplish this.

I know enough about networking to look at a diagram (in the day job) and ask "please explain that decision" (us regulators love open-ended questions). Isn't a whelk's chance in a supernova I'll ever get any networking certs.

I'm sorry but that's not accurate. "Dumb" switches do switching not routing. If the destination MAC is in their address table they send the packet to those port(s). They will never see, nor care about IP addresses.

Now the subnet still matters because if the computer doesn't have a direct route to the device it's destination will be your default gateway (router), but there are various tricks you could do to avoid hitting the slow router interface like putting one of the hosts in two subnets.
 
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Re: 2.5GBASE-T and 5GBASE-T routers available when?

Tue Jun 13, 2017 12:15 pm

BobbinThreadbare wrote:
Captain Ned wrote:
Waco wrote:
You only have to route if you're leaving the subnet (going to the Internet) - dumb switches route between machines on the same subnet without having to hit the router.

I knew there was a simple answer my aging brain just hadn't figured out. Like I said, I don't grok the OSI model, so I was having problems figuring out why a device without an IP address could accomplish this.

I know enough about networking to look at a diagram (in the day job) and ask "please explain that decision" (us regulators love open-ended questions). Isn't a whelk's chance in a supernova I'll ever get any networking certs.

I'm sorry but that's not accurate. "Dumb" switches do switching not routing. If the destination MAC is in their address table they send the packet to those port(s). They will never see, nor care about IP addresses.

Now the subnet still matters because if the computer doesn't have a direct route to the device it's destination will be your default gateway (router), but there are various tricks you could do to avoid hitting the slow router interface like putting one of the hosts in two subnets.

Sorry for not using the exactly correct word (I should have said pass instead of route). :P I understand how MACs work, but not many consumers really care how switching/routing is done, only what the effects are locally and how it affects them.

For 99.99999% of consumer home networks, there's a subnet for local and then there's everything else - so I was attempting, poorly, to put it into layman's terms.
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Re: 2.5GBASE-T and 5GBASE-T routers available when?

Tue Jun 13, 2017 12:21 pm

Waco wrote:
Sorry for not using the exactly correct word (I should have said pass instead of route). :P I understand how MACs work, but not many consumers really care how switching/routing is done, only what the effects are locally and how it affects them.

For 99.99999% of consumer home networks, there's a subnet for local and then there's everything else - so I was attempting, poorly, to put it into layman's terms.


Global addressing in IPv6 is going to be *sheer fun* for people with home networks that don't understand the details. Internet of (hackable) Things, indeed. I wonder how many severe consumer firewall bugs are masked by PAT? I guess we're going to find out!
 
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Re: 2.5GBASE-T and 5GBASE-T routers available when?

Tue Jun 13, 2017 12:43 pm

Yeah, IPv6 is a whole new wrench in the works. :)
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Re: 2.5GBASE-T and 5GBASE-T routers available when?

Tue Jun 13, 2017 12:57 pm

Waco wrote:
Yeah, IPv6 is a whole new wrench in the works. :)

Well, with 1.5 * 10^18 IPv6 addresses for every square millimeter of the Earth's surface (oceans included), what could possibly go wrong?
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Re: 2.5GBASE-T and 5GBASE-T routers available when?

Tue Jun 13, 2017 1:09 pm

Vhalidictes wrote:
Waco wrote:
Sorry for not using the exactly correct word (I should have said pass instead of route). :P I understand how MACs work, but not many consumers really care how switching/routing is done, only what the effects are locally and how it affects them.

For 99.99999% of consumer home networks, there's a subnet for local and then there's everything else - so I was attempting, poorly, to put it into layman's terms.


Global addressing in IPv6 is going to be *sheer fun* for people with home networks that don't understand the details. Internet of (hackable) Things, indeed. I wonder how many severe consumer firewall bugs are masked by PAT? I guess we're going to find out!

I suspect most people will probably still be behind a NAT. You *can* do universal addressing, but why not just have the router have the IPv6 address and NAT it to actually readable IPv4 addresses.

Although one cool thing you could do would be selective pass through of IPv6 which would help people with multiple Xboxes/PS4s etc. Like a DMZ but as many as you want.
 
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Re: 2.5GBASE-T and 5GBASE-T routers available when?

Tue Jun 13, 2017 1:10 pm

I'd shove a 2-port 10Gb card in a PC with a high-mhz CPU and run pfSense on it before trying the early adopter lottery on consumer routers.
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Re: 2.5GBASE-T and 5GBASE-T routers available when?

Tue Jun 13, 2017 1:32 pm

BobbinThreadbare wrote:
Vhalidictes wrote:
Waco wrote:
Sorry for not using the exactly correct word (I should have said pass instead of route). :P I understand how MACs work, but not many consumers really care how switching/routing is done, only what the effects are locally and how it affects them.

For 99.99999% of consumer home networks, there's a subnet for local and then there's everything else - so I was attempting, poorly, to put it into layman's terms.


Global addressing in IPv6 is going to be *sheer fun* for people with home networks that don't understand the details. Internet of (hackable) Things, indeed. I wonder how many severe consumer firewall bugs are masked by PAT? I guess we're going to find out!

I suspect most people will probably still be behind a NAT. You *can* do universal addressing, but why not just have the router have the IPv6 address and NAT it to actually readable IPv4 addresses.

Although one cool thing you could do would be selective pass through of IPv6 which would help people with multiple Xboxes/PS4s etc. Like a DMZ but as many as you want.

You just setup a simple firewall rule that says connections must be initiated from the LAN port, only related packets are allowed back in on the WAN port. No need for DMZ or anything silly like that.
 
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Re: 2.5GBASE-T and 5GBASE-T routers available when?

Tue Jun 13, 2017 1:35 pm

BobbinThreadbare wrote:
I suspect most people will probably still be behind a NAT. You *can* do universal addressing, but why not just have the router have the IPv6 address and NAT it to actually readable IPv4 addresses.

Although one cool thing you could do would be selective pass through of IPv6 which would help people with multiple Xboxes/PS4s etc. Like a DMZ but as many as you want.


Yeah, there are tons of ways to handle IPv6 connections. There's NAT/PAT support built-in, but it's really up to how the ISP handles it. From what I've seen so far they are giving out semi-private (globally addressable but are assigned to them) IP ranges in their space. But Comcast has been giving out fully non-route-able addresses... so far...
 
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Re: 2.5GBASE-T and 5GBASE-T routers available when?

Tue Jun 13, 2017 1:37 pm

notfred wrote:
You just setup a simple firewall rule that says connections must be initiated from the LAN port, only related packets are allowed back in on the WAN port. No need for DMZ or anything silly like that.


I guess that modern OSs are secure enough that this might work for a self-installed FW. Of course, then again, who knows what D-link et al will end up doing in their security code.
 
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Re: 2.5GBASE-T and 5GBASE-T routers available when?

Tue Jun 13, 2017 1:44 pm

SuperSpy wrote:
I'd shove a 2-port 10Gb card in a PC with a high-mhz CPU and run pfSense on it before trying the early adopter lottery on consumer routers.

We're a long way from needing 10 Gb routing, though.
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Re: 2.5GBASE-T and 5GBASE-T routers available when?

Tue Jun 13, 2017 2:56 pm

notfred wrote:
You just setup a simple firewall rule that says connections must be initiated from the LAN port, only related packets are allowed back in on the WAN port. No need for DMZ or anything silly like that.

There are a lot of customer applications that require the ability to open connections from WAN (thus the invention of UPNP). Modern game consoles are the most common since they use p2p instead of dedicated servers.

People run into problems with multiple devices trying to use the same ports which is why the ability to pass through IPv6 addresses at will would be cool.

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