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10 Gbps switch for a condo

Sun Dec 02, 2018 5:58 pm

Hey guys, I'm wondering if there is a good alternative to have a 10 Gbps wired network at home without buying a super massive enterprise-grade (or sized) switch. I have a Linksys WRT AC3200 that deals with networking and, while it satisfies my wireless needs,I would like to speed up connection between my wired computers.

I was intending to connect the switch to my AC3200 to expand the network, and I have an Ikea shelf-sized space to fit more equipment, and as this is in my actual living room, space constraints and looks apply. Do you know if there's any good equipment for this? Or should I just wait until 10Gbps becomes more ubiquitous?
 
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Re: 10 Gbps switch for a condo

Sun Dec 02, 2018 7:11 pm

How many devices are you looking for? Right now if two it’s much cheaper to run a direct connection
 
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Re: 10 Gbps switch for a condo

Sun Dec 02, 2018 7:35 pm

If you want all the ports at 10Gb, something like below is about as unobtrusive as you are going to get.

https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16833122848&Description=10gbe%20switch&cm_re=10gbe_switch-_-33-122-848-_-Product

If you only need a couple of 10Gb ports, then something like this might work.

https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=2WG-002S-00065

I have no idea regarding the quality of the above switches.

I would have a bunch of questions about your setup and what you are trying to achieve. What kind of traffic are you trying to make faster? Do you're computers already have 10Gb interfaces? If not, figure on several hundred per computer for a 10Gb copper PCIe card. If you don't have the ability to add PCIe cards, then you'll need USB3 -- though I haven't looked for 10Gb USB3 network interfaces. USB3 is going to limit you to something less than 5Gbps as that is the USB3 rate. Are you trying to speed up file transfers? If so, what kind of storage on either side. Spinning disk, don't bother. 1Gb network is good for 80-90MBps. A really good spinning disk is good for 150MBps, maybe 200MBps. So you'd be looking at $1k+ to double (at best) file transfer speeds. If you have SSDs on both sides, then that's not a problem. 10Gb isn't going to reduce latency (ping), so it wouldn't help gaming type traffic.

So, you can do it. It just comes down to whether the cost/benefit ratio is good enough for you.

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Re: 10 Gbps switch for a condo

Sun Dec 02, 2018 8:36 pm

AQuantia single port 10GBE cards are $90-$100 each. There was a black friday thing where I got 2 for $145 on Amazon. There are usually a fair selection of used more server grade stuff on ebay.

There are a few reasonably priced switches with 2-4 10GBE ports and X-1GBE ports.... I've seen some as near $300, though that one I lost track of.

Recently saw the TP-LINK JetStream 24-Port Gigabit L2 Managed PoE+ Switch with 4 SFP Slots for $420... I don't need PoE really, but not a bad price overall. Without PoE it'd probably be $50-$100 less. Something like this with a few 10GBE plus a bunch of 1GBE is pretty much my personal next step at home, replacing a basic 24-port switch. The current switch only has ~10 port used, but there are 6-8 more in the house that are unused.
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Re: 10 Gbps switch for a condo

Sun Dec 02, 2018 11:08 pm

Note that SFP slots will require a 10Gb copper SFP transceiver, which are $100+ a piece. Compatibility can be an issue, even though it shouldn't be. Otherwise, you are looking at SFP direct connect cables or optical fiber.

The AQuantia cards look interesting. I've been pondering running a direct 10G connection from my office workstation to the file server upstairs, but the cost of the NICs has always made me reconsider.

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Re: 10 Gbps switch for a condo

Sun Dec 02, 2018 11:44 pm

SecretSquirrel wrote:
Note that SFP slots will require a 10Gb copper SFP transceiver, which are $100+ a piece.


Depends on the length. For short lengths, DAC SFP+ cables have built-in transceivers. https://www.amazon.com/10Gtek-Ubiquiti- ... B01LSGGUOY

In the general case, yes, you need transceivers. But... I thought they were cheaper?? Is FS.com a legitimate site: https://www.fs.com/products/36433.html? I've never personally used optical. But I've seen it talked about a lot on various forums.

300-meters probably is sufficient for a condo. So $20 per transceiver in that case (+$40 + wire costs for each point-to-point connection)

----------

Cheap Ethernet 10Gbps switches seem to be very lowly reviewed right now... with allegation of heating issues and whatnot. Still, most people on fiber-optics for home installations seem to like the company "Ubiquity" right now:

Cheap Transceivers: https://store.ubnt.com/products/uf-mm-10g-20-20-pack

On this switch: UniFi Switch US-16-XG: https://www.amazon.com/Ubiquiti-Network ... 563&sr=8-5

Hopefully 10G copper will get some better switches with good reviews eventually. For now (Dec 2018), it seems like Fiber is still the way to go, even if it costs a bit more.
 
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Re: 10 Gbps switch for a condo

Mon Dec 03, 2018 5:58 am

 
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Re: 10 Gbps switch for a condo

Mon Dec 03, 2018 8:25 am

Curious about the use case here.

About a year ago I looked at the prices of 10Gb gear, and decided it just wasn't worth it. I keep anything I need high bandwidth access to on local storage, and use the central server primarily for backups and streaming media. 1Gb is more than enough for that.

For me to bite, I think prices of 10Gb gear would need to drop to about where 1Gb gear was ~15 years ago. TBH I am a little surprised this has not happened yet. I guess the fact that pretty much all consumer gear is WiFI enabled these days has meant that 10Gb wired connections have remained an "enterprise grade" feature since there has been little consumer demand.
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Re: 10 Gbps switch for a condo

Mon Dec 03, 2018 8:56 am

just brew it! wrote:
Curious about the use case here.

About a year ago I looked at the prices of 10Gb gear, and decided it just wasn't worth it. I keep anything I need high bandwidth access to on local storage, and use the central server primarily for backups and streaming media. 1Gb is more than enough for that.

For me to bite, I think prices of 10Gb gear would need to drop to about where 1Gb gear was ~15 years ago. TBH I am a little surprised this has not happened yet. I guess the fact that pretty much all consumer gear is WiFI enabled these days has meant that 10Gb wired connections have remained an "enterprise grade" feature since there has been little consumer demand.


Wireless Ethernet has pretty much take over the mainstream networking world. 10Gbps Ethernet and beyond are still prosumer/professional-tier. 10Gbps will never be as cheap as 1Gigabit and legacy Ethernet because the available mediums and equipment for it have to built to higher standards for reliable data transmission. Cheap UTP and older switching designs don't cut it. That's why 802.11bz spec came into existence. It is one last-ditch effort to squeeze more bandwidth out of the old UTP-based networks without having to rewire everything. You just have replace switches, routers and NICs for it.

Mainstream customers always hated cabling which is why they always opt for Wireless Ethernet despite the security, performance and reliability issues.
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Re: 10 Gbps switch for a condo

Mon Dec 03, 2018 9:02 am

Krogoth wrote:
10Gbps will never be as cheap as 1Gigabit and legacy Ethernet because the available mediums and equipment for it have to built to higher standards for reliable data transmission.

It doesn't even need to get that cheap for me to bite. Just as cheap as 1Gb was when it was still relatively new.
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Re: 10 Gbps switch for a condo

Mon Dec 03, 2018 9:06 am

just brew it! wrote:
Krogoth wrote:
10Gbps will never be as cheap as 1Gigabit and legacy Ethernet because the available mediums and equipment for it have to built to higher standards for reliable data transmission.

It doesn't even need to get that cheap for me to bite. Just as cheap as 1Gb was when it was still relatively new.


10Gbps has already reach the same price levels when 1Gbps was fairly new. 1Gbps was fairly pricey back in the early to mid 2000s if you wanted something beyond 1Gbps PCI NIC and simple, low-port count unmanaged switches.
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Re: 10 Gbps switch for a condo

Mon Dec 03, 2018 9:19 am

Krogoth wrote:
10Gbps has already reach the same price levels when 1Gbps was fairly new. 1Gbps was fairly pricey back in the early to mid 2000s if you wanted something beyond 1Gbps PCI NIC and simple, low-port count unmanaged switches.

Except 10gbps is not new, at least not by any definition that I understand in the world of tech. I am as baffled as JBI that something that came out in 2007 is still set at exorbitant prices.
 
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Re: 10 Gbps switch for a condo

Mon Dec 03, 2018 9:57 am

leor wrote:
Krogoth wrote:
10Gbps has already reach the same price levels when 1Gbps was fairly new. 1Gbps was fairly pricey back in the early to mid 2000s if you wanted something beyond 1Gbps PCI NIC and simple, low-port count unmanaged switches.

Except 10gbps is not new, at least not by any definition that I understand in the world of tech. I am as baffled as JBI that something that came out in 2007 is still set at exorbitant prices.

Bingo. Within a few years of introduction, prices for 1Gb gear had dropped to the point where it just made no sense to get 100Mb gear any more for the vast majority of use cases.

As I noted, I think a big part of it is due to most things going to WiFi, so volume on 10Gb gear never hit the point where it became a cheap commodity. 99% of consumer applications don't need the speed of 10Gb wired connections, but do benefit from not needing a cable and nearby wired jack.
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Re: 10 Gbps switch for a condo

Mon Dec 03, 2018 10:14 am

I revisit this topic every year and every year I shudder at the cost of switch prices and continue to deal with gigabit. :/
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Re: 10 Gbps switch for a condo

Mon Dec 03, 2018 10:33 am

There are a couple of 12port 10GbaseT switches which are approaching almost sane pricing levels. The Xyzel XS1920 and the HPE OfficeConnect 12XGT are two that come to mind but both are still far more than I'd personally want to spend on a home network.
 
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Re: 10 Gbps switch for a condo

Mon Dec 03, 2018 11:02 am

leor wrote:
Krogoth wrote:
10Gbps has already reach the same price levels when 1Gbps was fairly new. 1Gbps was fairly pricey back in the early to mid 2000s if you wanted something beyond 1Gbps PCI NIC and simple, low-port count unmanaged switches.

Except 10gbps is not new, at least not by any definition that I understand in the world of tech. I am as baffled as JBI that something that came out in 2007 is still set at exorbitant prices.


It is because 10Gbps is inherently more expensive and difficult to do versus older Ethernet standards. It'll never be as cheap as older standards even if the scale of economics comes into play. It doesn't help that there still no killer mainstream application that makes 1Gbps Ethernet woefully inadequate. In the situations where it is useful and some cases essential are still firmly in the professional/enterprise realm.

It is no different then dual-socket boards, LRDIMMs/RDIMMs, enterprise-level HBA cards, enterprise-tier solid-state media.
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Re: 10 Gbps switch for a condo

Mon Dec 03, 2018 11:07 am

In the age of super fast NVMe drives gigabit ethernet is showing its age. I mean 100 MBs? Really? It is just terrible.

I've been hankering for 10 gigabit ethernet for so long that I almost forgot about it. Fortunately, it does appear that 10 gigabit ethernet is finally appearing on high end consumer products. It was a $120 option on my main desktop and the motherboard for my new gaming build has it. With 10 gigabit switches below $1,000 I think it is time review the available options. A holiday project in the making. :D
 
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Re: 10 Gbps switch for a condo

Mon Dec 03, 2018 11:11 am

End User wrote:
In the age of super fast NVMe drives gigabit ethernet is showing its age. I mean 100 MBs? Really? It is just terrible.

I've been hankering for 10 Gbps ethernet for so long that I almost forgot about it. Fortunately, it does appear that 10 gigabit ethernet is finally appearing on high end consumer products. It was a $120 option on my main desktop and the motherboard for my new gaming build has it. With 10 gigabit switches below $1,000 I think it is time review the available options. A holiday project in the making. :D


Not an issue for regular customers and majority of gamers. Unless you have some dedicated NAS box or workstation that needs ultra-high I/O throughput. 10Gbps is still overkill for a home network. The crowd that has a need for it are more then willing to pay current price points for everything (NICs, media and switches). Prices for 10Gbps equipment have gone down considerably in recent years and some of them support 802.11bz standard if you don't want to bother rewiring your old UTP cabling.
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Re: 10 Gbps switch for a condo

Mon Dec 03, 2018 11:20 am

Krogoth wrote:
Not an issue for regular customers and majority of gamers.

We have been here before, you and I. I don't talk on behalf of, nor care about, regular customers and the majority of gamers.

For those that are interested in 10 gigabit ethernet, who can justify it to themselves, and have the budget, things appears to be falling into place.
 
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Re: 10 Gbps switch for a condo

Mon Dec 03, 2018 11:25 am

End User wrote:
Krogoth wrote:
Not an issue for regular customers and majority of gamers.

We have been here before, you and I. I don't talk on behalf of, nor care about, regular customers and the majority of gamers.

For those that are interested in 10 gigabit ethernet, who can justify it to themselves, and have the budget, things appears to be falling into place.


Mainstream customers a.k.a normies make the bank for companies. They allow the R&D budgets for the cutting edge stuff that you are passionate for. Ignoring their needs is economic and technological suicide.
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Re: 10 Gbps switch for a condo

Mon Dec 03, 2018 11:34 am

Krogoth wrote:
Mainstream customers a.k.a normies make the bank for companies.

Ugh, You keep saying that. Over and over and over and over and over and over.

And over.

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Re: 10 Gbps switch for a condo

Mon Dec 03, 2018 1:37 pm

End User wrote:
A holiday project in the making. :D

Indeed haha!! I was thinking just this. I gotta admit, that QNAP QSW-1208-8C looks like the best one out there for my setup, but it's 500+ USD, which really, really, really hurts my wallet hahaha!
The Netgear GS110MX-100NAS sounds more approachable, but only supports two 10Gbps connections, but it's way more reasonable.

In theory, I only need two 10Gbps ports: My main PC and my Media/NAS server/HTPC... but I wouldn't want to limit myself to only two ports... I guess more thinking is needed :) :(

Many thanks for your suggestions!
 
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Re: 10 Gbps switch for a condo

Mon Dec 03, 2018 3:01 pm

End User wrote:
Krogoth wrote:
Mainstream customers a.k.a normies make the bank for companies.

Ugh, You keep saying that. Over and over and over and over and over and over.

And over.

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Because it appears you are either denser then neturoium and/or more conceited then Icarus.
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Re: 10 Gbps switch for a condo

Mon Dec 03, 2018 3:35 pm

Krogoth wrote:
10Gbps Ethernet and beyond are still prosumer/professional-tier. 10Gbps will never be as cheap as 1Gigabit and legacy Ethernet because the available mediums and equipment for it have to built to higher standards for reliable data transmission. Cheap UTP and older switching designs don't cut it. That's why 802.11bz spec came into existence. It is one last-ditch effort to squeeze more bandwidth out of the old UTP-based networks without having to rewire everything.
In many cases, people have Cat6 and rather short runs, so the wiring could handle 10G, but the equipment is just too expensive. And for 10G, with its spectral bandwidth, there are good reasons why.

But I don't know of any reason besides entrenched economies of scale why 2.5G should be significantly more expensive than 1G, and for the home use cases I can imagine, 2.5G would provide almost all of the benefits of 10G.
 
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Re: 10 Gbps switch for a condo

Mon Dec 03, 2018 3:37 pm

Usacomp2k3 wrote:
How many devices are you looking for? Right now if two it’s much cheaper to run a direct connection

Here's what I was thinking:
https://forums.servethehome.com/index.p ... ost-187829
 
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Re: 10 Gbps switch for a condo

Mon Dec 03, 2018 4:11 pm

End User wrote:
In the age of super fast NVMe drives gigabit ethernet is showing its age. I mean 100 MBs? Really? It is just terrible.


Actually, I've been thinking 10Gbps for my Hard-drive based NAS. Typical hard drives these days are 150MB to 200MB/s already. Go to RAID10 (or really, ZFS mirrored + striped) and you can push 500MB/s. I know that 5Gbps theoretically exists, but 10Gbps is a touch more future proof and well tested. Yeah, hard drives have poor random IOPS, but 1Gbps is far too slow for hard-drive sequential, especially with advanced setups like ZFS Striped+Mirrored.

NVMe drives are way beyond even 10Gbps.
 
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Re: 10 Gbps switch for a condo

Mon Dec 03, 2018 4:48 pm

Doing 10Gbase-T right now, with a FreeNAS box and desktop currently hooked up. I've seen >750MB/s in some cases, but 300MB/s-500MB/s typical to/from a 4x 6TB Ironwolf ZFS stripe/mirror setup. I'd like to bring the disk count to eight, but I don't actually need the space, and well, those drives are expensive ;).

The switch I used is a managed HP Officeconnect with eight ports (two shared SFP+), and I have a board with an onboard Aquantia for the desktop and an Aquantia AIC on the server. Only complaint is that the desktop seems to take a minute to restore connectivity when coming back from sleep; the server is always up, so I can't comment there.
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Re: 10 Gbps switch for a condo

Mon Dec 03, 2018 7:32 pm

Just as a small comparison note, I'm currently transferring at the exact same speed from my laptop to the NAS over 802.11ac as I am my desktop over gigabit wired. The desktop is a few years old and the laptop is pretty brand-new and they are both probably limited by the slow cpu on the NAS, but still. 600mbps in either case is pretty fabulous.
 
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Re: 10 Gbps switch for a condo

Mon Dec 03, 2018 11:50 pm

jensend wrote:
Krogoth wrote:
10Gbps Ethernet and beyond are still prosumer/professional-tier. 10Gbps will never be as cheap as 1Gigabit and legacy Ethernet because the available mediums and equipment for it have to built to higher standards for reliable data transmission. Cheap UTP and older switching designs don't cut it. That's why 802.11bz spec came into existence. It is one last-ditch effort to squeeze more bandwidth out of the old UTP-based networks without having to rewire everything.
In many cases, people have Cat6 and rather short runs, so the wiring could handle 10G, but the equipment is just too expensive. And for 10G, with its spectral bandwidth, there are good reasons why.

But I don't know of any reason besides entrenched economies of scale why 2.5G should be significantly more expensive than 1G, and for the home use cases I can imagine, 2.5G would provide almost all of the benefits of 10G.


Which is why 802.11bz spec is a thing. ;)
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