Personal computing discussed

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MarkG509
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Re: Buying a Mac tonight

Tue Dec 01, 2015 1:33 am

riviera74 wrote:
Apple Accessories may be expensive

The whole Win10 "Telemetry" and forced updates thing made me dust-off my 2011 Mac Mini. Though I still prefer Linux Mint/Mate to El Capitan (or whatever they call it now), Win >= 8.0 is has fallen to a distant 3rd place. I find myself (and my 'workflow') using/liking the Mini on a Dell DU2713HM with a Window's keyboard (currently a Logitech K740), and alternating between a real mouse (currently a SteelSeries Sensei MLG Pro) and the original Magic TrackPad.
 
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Re: Buying a Mac tonight

Tue Dec 01, 2015 8:54 am

whm1974 wrote:
My biggest problem with the iMac is that they are All In Ones, meaning that they are very costly to repair or upgrade if you upgrade them at all. I don'y why Apple won't make a standard tower.


Mr 1974,
I could not agree more. Apple is missing out on a lot of sales if they did design a true tower design with a motherboard you can upgrade CPU's and add the GPU of your choice. They are missingout on a marhet that would bring a ton of mew customers that do not buy Apple PC's because they are not up gradable besides memory and some storage options but with the iMacs that is even becoming a almost impossible task.

I think apples mentality nowadays is if you want better you will have to buy a whole new PC.

It is truly a shame that they do not have a nice custom apple designed full sized Tower system that would have a custom configuration deal on their website. I think it would bring so much more business to them and even convert some PC people over to apple since they would have the option of building a custom legal Hackintosh with a licence with overclocking capabilities since it would have a bios like a normal PC.

Along with giving current Apple heads finally a way to build a custom Apple PC to their specs with the ability tp upgrade GPU's, CPU's and other stuff. Even if apple makes a royalty on parts for upgrades beside GPU's and CPU's they would make even more money. It open them up to many more customers including PC users.
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whm1974
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Re: Buying a Mac tonight

Tue Dec 01, 2015 9:17 am

It seems that Apple thinks that computers are works of art instead being devices that are used to perform tasks that users need or want to be done.
 
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Re: Buying a Mac tonight

Tue Dec 01, 2015 9:21 am

Why can't they be both? For the vast majority of the world, Macs are both. For tinkerers like us, not so much.
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Glorious
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Re: Buying a Mac tonight

Tue Dec 01, 2015 9:37 am

vargis14 wrote:
Apple is missing out on a lot of sales


:roll:

I wouldn't say they've been missing them...

vargis14 wrote:
They are missingout on a marhet that would bring a ton of mew customers that do not buy Apple PC's because they are not up gradable


No, they are not. And it's almost certain that catering to that incredibly small (but vocal and perpetually cranky) minority would cost them the sales of much more lucrative and numerous (plus manageable) customers.

vargis14 wrote:
I think apples mentality nowadays is if you want better you will have to buy a whole new PC.


And it works. It works ridiculously well. They're drowning both in money AND in accolades. It's almost an embarrassment of riches.

vargis14 wrote:
I think it would bring so much more business to them and even convert some PC people over to apple since they would have the option of building a custom legal Hackintosh with a licence with overclocking capabilities since it would have a bios like a normal PC.


This is a extremely miniscule market, composed of troublesome customers who also very price-discriminating.

Don't over-value your importance and over-estimate the prevalence of your preferences.

vargis14 wrote:
Even if apple makes a royalty on parts for upgrades beside GPU's and CPU's they would make even more money. It open them up to many more customers including PC users.


The regular PC market has razor thin profit margins. Where is this money you speak of? It's hard to find, I think Apple actually cornered the market on unimaginably giant stacks of currency. :wink:

Look, you are basically talking about what nearly killed Apple in the early 90s: Apple licensing the software. It was literally the first thing Jobs killed when he came back, and virtually everyone thinks it was a good idea. Certainly in retrospect, I mean, geez. He's like a saint now, and it was the figurative lynch-pin of the turn-around that HBS still can't shut up about nearly two decades later...
 
whm1974
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Re: Buying a Mac tonight

Tue Dec 01, 2015 9:51 am

No, they are not. And it's almost certain that catering to that incredibly small (but vocal and perpetually cranky) minority would cost them the sales of much more lucrative and numerous (plus manageable) customers.

How would producing a standard tower cost them sales? They can still sell iMacs.
The regular PC market has razor thin profit margins. Where is this money you speak of? It's hard to find, I think Apple actually cornered the market on unimaginably giant stacks of currency.

And how many folks here have spent serious money on their rigs? Look what hardcore gamers spend on hardware. There is a market for a Mac tower.
 
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Re: Buying a Mac tonight

Tue Dec 01, 2015 9:58 am

whm1974 wrote:
And how many folks here have spent serious money on their rigs? Look what hardcore gamers spend on hardware. There is a market for a Mac tower.

And the Venn diagram for that has how much convergence? Set theory, anyone?

99.999% of MacDroids care absolutely nothing about the guts of the hardware, just the shiny surfaces and the OS. Our techie lot is but a flea biting a tick stuck on the ass of the PC dog, let alone MacWorld. The companies that can profit while catering solely to the 0.001% are few in number and far between. Apple ain't one of them. Apple relies on soccer moms, their kids, and hipsters. None of these are well-known for building their own hardware.
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whm1974
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Re: Buying a Mac tonight

Tue Dec 01, 2015 10:05 am

Our numbers are much larger then 0.001%.
 
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Re: Buying a Mac tonight

Tue Dec 01, 2015 10:13 am

whm1974 wrote:
How would producing a standard tower cost them sales? They can still sell iMacs.


Dude, it isn't an oversight. The Mac Pro WAS a tower just three years ago. They deliberately went with the new concept anyway, and it doesn't really seem to matter. I've never even seen the Mac Pro in person, and last Mac Tower I've ever seen was made a decade ago. And it's not like I don't know several OSX fanatics, I know a lot of developers who use the high-end laptops, but that's just the thing, isn't it? :wink:

Frankly, if they can charge a few bucks(or, you know, literally FIVE HUNDRED DOLLARS) more for the circular Mac Pro because it "looks cool", and sales don't decelerate any further, that's known as making lots and lots of money.

whm1974 wrote:
And how many folks here have spent serious money on their rigs? Look what hardcore gamers spend on hardware. There is a market for a Mac tower.


Do I have break out the apocryphal anecdote about Pauline Kael and voting?

whm1974 wrote:
Our numbers are much larger then 0.001%.


Do you seriously not understand why Apple doesn't even want you as a customer?

I'll spell it out: *MILLIONS* of people are paying hundreds of dollars of a price premium primarily so that they can use a computer without having that activity being associated with what you represent.
 
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Re: Buying a Mac tonight

Tue Dec 01, 2015 10:25 am

Do you seriously not understand why Apple doesn't even want you as a customer?

And this is why Apple will stay at 5% or less of the market.
I'll spell it out: *MILLIONS* of people are paying hundreds of dollars of a price premium primarily so that they can use a computer without having that activity being associated with what you represent.

The said activity being associated with what I represent isn't rocket science.
 
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Re: Buying a Mac tonight

Tue Dec 01, 2015 10:37 am

whm1974 wrote:
And this is why Apple will stay at 5% or less of the market.


Which, by the way, is totally & completely fine if you make ~50% of the profits in that market. Which Apple probably comes very close to accomplishing.

People ridicule this and call it "The Apple Tax" but, guys, a tax is something you don't want to pay.

And since their brand stretches into a separate (but related) market that is ludicrously larger, it's not a limited question. If going for even 15% of that market would endanger those other markets (WHICH ARE RIDICULOUSLY HUGE, NEWER, AND EXTENSIBLE), uh, They'll take 5% of marketshare for 50% of the profits, Trebek. :wink:

whm1974 wrote:
The said activity being associated with what I represent isn't rocket science.


Oh, god. God no.

That is not what I meant.

Whereas the attitude that led you to that assumption is precisely what I meant.

*shudder*
 
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Re: Buying a Mac tonight

Tue Dec 01, 2015 10:59 am

Look all I'm saying is that there is a big enough market for a Mac tower to be worthwhile for Apple to produce one. In fact the OP here would have brought one to begin with if it was available.
 
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Re: Buying a Mac tonight

Tue Dec 01, 2015 11:09 am

whm1974 wrote:
Look all I'm saying is that there is a big enough market for a Mac tower to be worthwhile for Apple to produce one


Whereas Apple, who knows more about this than either of us, concluded otherwise three years ago after selling them for like two decades.

whm1974 wrote:
In fact the OP here would have brought one to begin with if it was available.


And yet he still bought an iMac, whereas he could have purchased a regular PC tower anywhere for much, much less money.

Maybe you should think about that.

I know Apple did.
 
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Re: Buying a Mac tonight

Tue Dec 01, 2015 11:12 am

ConfusedPenguin wrote:
there is one thing that an iMac can do that a Windows PC cannot do most of the time, it's a turn-on to geeky girls.


Tongue-in-Cheek, I know, but it's real and it's known as branding.

It works.

EDIT: I should probably spell this out: It isn't a bamboozle either. Apple hardware is solid and you're guaranteed an above-average product. There is a lot less to worry about, and a lot fewer unknowns. Are there comparable PC offerings for less? Assuredly, but most people don't obsess about specifications and distinctions nor do they want to assiduous shop around looking for certain design details ( and it seems that the type of people who DO are actually the people Apple directly caters to, hence all the love from product reviewers).

The software is also fine, and in many ways superior (from my perspective) : If I am with a friend who owns a Mac I can easily do and demonstrate various things immediately because of the underlying nixyness, whereas if they have a PC it's always a complete pain. People also seem the love the DE, which I honestly do not understand (for *any* DE) but do not resent. As long as it has truetype fonts anyway, otherwise my wrath is real :P

---

As I said, I know numerous extremely discerning and competent developers who own mac laptops and love them to death. It isn't my thing, but it demonstrates that there isn't anything fundamentally wrong with the platform.
Last edited by Glorious on Tue Dec 01, 2015 11:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
whm1974
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Re: Buying a Mac tonight

Tue Dec 01, 2015 11:29 am

OK I'll admit that I can't begin to fathom why anyone would buy an AIO type system to begin with. Maybe I'm too much of a techie to understand the "Soccer Mom" mentality that buys these things.
 
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Re: Buying a Mac tonight

Tue Dec 01, 2015 11:40 am

whm1974 wrote:
Maybe I'm too much of a techie to understand the "Soccer Mom" mentality that buys these things


:groan:

Again, that attitude is why they don't want you as a customer.

Not because you're "better" but because you think you are.

---

Do you understand how incredibly off-putting that is? I think Apple does.

Do you imagine that most people want to be intimidated by what they own? Do you think they want to conquer and control what they've already purchased?

No, they don't. They understand that what they've bought is expensive and unfathomably intricate and powerful, and they're comforted by the knowledge that the pale glow of the pome protects them from all that complexity.

That's the deal, and you upset that deal by crassly reminding them that you BUILD (which is honestly way less stressful and complicated then assemblying IKEA furniture) your *OWN* computers, sorry, rigs; that you are a "techie" who appreciates and harnesses that power and looks down on their feeble and limited "mentality" :roll:

---

APPLE DOES NOT WANT YOU. Apple can't even hear your pitiable cries over the deadening effect created by all those endless bales of cash-money they're storing in their offices now that all the banks have run out of room.

Seriously, you're like a stalker. Jodie FosterApple doesn't need a boyfriend.
 
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Re: Buying a Mac tonight

Tue Dec 01, 2015 11:52 am

Apple knows it makes money by making beautiful computers that people are proud to buy and pleased to use, and that don't last particularly long.

The more possible it is for "power" users or local non-authorized service shops to tinker with random upgrades, the more enhancements and upgrades will happen.

When these would go badly, the users would be less happy and (unfairly) Apple's reputation in their minds would suffer, making them less likely to give Apple money or recommend others do so.

When these "upgrades" would go well, the Macs in question would last longer so Apple would lose sales in the short term, and these Macs would be used for longer and the user would be gradually less happy as the performance would be relatively worse, which would also affect Apple's reputation and so sales longer term.

It's lose-lose, so anything Apple can do to reduce tinkering is valuable to them, even without considering the benefits it can bring to the design side.

Mac users don't really want upgradable towers either, because of the design benefits and simply because they either like buying new Macs and selling old ones at much much closer to the purchase price than any other PC goes for, or they buy their Macs second hand: "upgradability" would increase risks for the second group and hit the first group by harming the average resale value ...

Apple makes insane profits in this industry because people are proud to buy and pleased to use Macs, upgradability attacks that.
Apple gets to charge a price premium because its customers don't see a Mac as being a PC, upgradability attacks that too.
Apple sells new Macs more frequently because they are not so easily upgradable...

A list of all the possible reasons for making upgradable Macs would look like an inverse of the business case for their position of making non-upgradable computers.
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Re: Buying a Mac tonight

Tue Dec 01, 2015 11:56 am

whm1974 wrote:
Maybe I'm too much of a techie to understand the "Soccer Mom" mentality that buys these things


Sorry, I'm re-compelled to the well.

Did you, like, not hear me when I said that I know numerous developers who exclusively use Mac laptops to work? A couple of them are hot-shots who are definitely way better programmers than I am, and, you know, I've even built *several* bad-boy rigs, so what does that tell you? A LOT, amirite?

Heck, let's continue with the social status games: One of them worked in a hot (and successfully acquired a few years back) startup with Dan Bricklin.

Clearly, you're too much a "techie" to understand the mentality of such a "Soccer Mom" (he *does* have three charming kids and a housewife, although with a trendy cross-over, not a minivan).
 
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Re: Buying a Mac tonight

Tue Dec 01, 2015 12:10 pm

OK you guys win. Maybe I am overbearing toward those with a "Soccer Mom" mentality when it comes to computers. Granted I haven't really put together that many systems, but I do find find it relaxing to build them. To be honest I really don't think I am as much as an "expert" on computers as some of my friends believe me to be.
 
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Re: Buying a Mac tonight

Tue Dec 01, 2015 12:20 pm

whm1974 wrote:
OK you guys win.


We can all win!

You can continue building your computers as you like, as I can I, and everyone else can merrily continue on using their Apple devices.

There was never any conflict here at all.

:)
 
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Re: Buying a Mac tonight

Tue Dec 01, 2015 12:27 pm

whm1974 wrote:
OK you guys win. Maybe I am overbearing toward those with a "Soccer Mom" mentality when it comes to computers. Granted I haven't really put together that many systems, but I do find find it relaxing to build them. To be honest I really don't think I am as much as an "expert" on computers as some of my friends believe me to be.

It was never about how much of an expert you are or how disinterested in your hobby other people are.
It's about accepting instead of mocking or vilifying their choices.
 
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Re: Buying a Mac tonight

Tue Dec 01, 2015 12:32 pm

Glorious wrote:
whm1974 wrote:
Look all I'm saying is that there is a big enough market for a Mac tower to be worthwhile for Apple to produce one


Whereas Apple, who knows more about this than either of us, concluded otherwise three years ago after selling them for like two decades.

whm1974 wrote:
In fact the OP here would have brought one to begin with if it was available.


And yet he still bought an iMac, whereas he could have purchased a regular PC tower anywhere for much, much less money.

Maybe you should think about that.

I know Apple did.


I would like to note that the OP bought a iMac because he had no other choice besides a round overpriced Mac Pro tower that cannot be upgraded in any real way. I know Apple uses their practices to make upgrading a PITA ands repair almost impossible "ifixit can show you that" and forces anyone needing a new Apple machine to get a AIO system that cannot be upgraded unless you pay for the upgrades ahead of time at exorbitant prices. But I know every School, be it a college or High school and the general public would prefer a standard tower design they can upgrade at least once for their Apple desktop. Even if they charge 400-600$ just for a fancy machined all aluminum custom Apple ATX tower the lines would go around several blocks once people saw it and apple used some of their unlimited resources on advertizing.

Introducing the Apple Pro Tower!!!! Here at apple we understand that people want to be able to upgrade and add components that do not come or are not available to our iMac users like Cable card tuners and much wider choice of graphics cards for our growing gaming ability on the Mac OS along with other things like sound cards, video capture cards, along with your choice of apple certified board from ASUS, Gigabyte etc, be it a Apple approved Intel Z series motherboards be it a dual channel quad core CPU board or a quad channel board with your choice of 6-18 cores...the choice is totally up to you.. that will allow you to propel your New Mac tower as fast as any PC with our super turbo functions adding 20-40% CPU performance over our top CPU available thanks to our custom water cooling system that can dissipate 300+ watts of heat and the list goes on and on. Also If you have a problem our geniuses can fix most anything in our stores on the spot in a short amount of time right in front of you.
That was poor representation of what apple could do with a standard ATX tower of their design to fit Apple approved Intel Z series motherboards be it a dual channel board or a quad channel board...the choice is totally up to you.
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Re: Buying a Mac tonight

Tue Dec 01, 2015 12:33 pm

whm1974 wrote:
To be honest I really don't think I am as much as an "expert" on computers as some of my friends believe me to be.


It's better to start from that position than to start thinking you already know everything. :)
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whm1974
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Re: Buying a Mac tonight

Tue Dec 01, 2015 12:44 pm

It's better to start from that position than to start thinking you already know everything.

Well I am sorry if I do come across as knowing everything. Some of my friends think I'm a god when it come to computers simply because I build mine. And yes I have tried to explain to them otherwise.
 
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Re: Buying a Mac tonight

Tue Dec 01, 2015 12:50 pm

I wouldn't have said you did come off that way, but plenty of other people do. I've always thought it was one of the reasons why there's such a high attrition rate for people majoring in CS. One, because a lot of people who decide to try to make it in technology really just aren't that good at it, and also because once they get hit with everything they don't know it's not so interesting to them anymore. :)
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Re: Buying a Mac tonight

Tue Dec 01, 2015 12:55 pm

whm1974 wrote:
And this is why Apple will stay at 5% or less of the market.

Meanwhile the market you are referring to is under major threat by a force that sees Apple as a key player.
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Re: Buying a Mac tonight

Tue Dec 01, 2015 12:56 pm

whm1974 wrote:
It's better to start from that position than to start thinking you already know everything.

Well I am sorry if I do come across as knowing everything. Some of my friends think I'm a god when it come to computers simply because I build mine. And yes I have tried to explain to them otherwise.

What are the specs of your current rig?
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Re: Buying a Mac tonight

Tue Dec 01, 2015 1:19 pm

vargis14 wrote:
I would like to note that the OP bought a iMac because he had no other choice besides a round overpriced Mac Pro tower that cannot be upgraded in any real way.


Which, before the round one, was still entry-level 2.5K, another thousand over what he paid *WITHOUT* the classy 27" high-res panel.

So that overpriced thing is kind of a given, right?

And upgraded? You mean the graphics card?

He can still add memory up to 32GiB, he can still use external harddrives, he could never upgrade the motherboard (it's still a Mac), and why upgrade the CPU (Intel is 3:5 for sockets:architectures, so do you think Kaby Lake will be a worthy upgrade from a Skylake :o )?

So, unless he cares about serious gaming, which makes this entire argument a farce anyway, what exactly is he missing?

vargis14 wrote:
I know Apple uses their practices to make upgrading a PITA ands repair almost impossible "ifixit can show you that" and forces anyone needing a new Apple machine to get a AIO system that cannot be upgraded unless you pay for the upgrades ahead of time at exorbitant prices.


Desktops are so cheap that people routinely replace them outright when the software breaks, forget the hardware. Every year or so I recycle the handful of relatively obsolete (but usually still functional!) desktops that I've acquired this way from friends & family.

I even got a i5 sandy-bridge this way a little under 2 years ago, the motherboard of broke and the guy at work literally just gave me the whole machine.

vargis14 wrote:
But I know every School, be it a college or High school and the general public would prefer a standard tower design they can upgrade at least once for their Apple desktop.


Oh please, that's nonsense. I've never worked for an institution (or heard of one) that's EVER upgraded a machine like that after deployment, and I've worked for several big ones (educational and otherwise).

vargis14 wrote:
Even if they charge 400-600$ just for a fancy machined all aluminum custom Apple ATX tower the lines would go around several blocks once people saw it and apple used some of their unlimited resources on advertizing.


That's known as diluting the brand, and it's universally a bad idea.

What you are saying is fundamentally no different than Apple selling Apple branded soap, or pillows. They're not in the business of selling cosmetics anymore than they are in the business of selling empty computer cases.

Hey. Here's a better idea: why don't they sell a complete computer, that way they can additionally sell layered software, cloud services and create synergies with that "other" computing market where the REAL money (and FUTURE) is.

Oh. right. that's what Apple is doing... :D

vargis14 wrote:
Introducing the Apple Pro Tower!!!!


That would be "Re-Introducing," did you miss that part?

You guys seem to think you've got all these novel and brilliant ideas, not realizing that there are several (likely former) executives at Apple who had them too...

vargis14 wrote:
Here at apple we understand that people want to be able to upgrade and add components


They don't. You do.

Apple understands this, you do not.

vargis14 wrote:
Cable card tuners


Get an external one, that's what most of them are anyway (I don't even know of an internal one). It's a better idea anyway, and much more flexible.

vargis14 wrote:
much wider choice of graphics cards for our growing gaming ability on the Mac OS


Seriously?

Not to mention that quality control for video cards and video drivers is an outright nightmare.

vargis14 wrote:
along with your choice of apple certified board from ASUS, Gigabyte etc, be it a Apple approved Intel Z series motherboards be it a dual channel quad core CPU board or a quad channel board with your choice of 6-18 cores.


Did you even read my initial response to your stupid idea? This isn't new. It was tried, it almost killed Apple, and it was the first thing Jobs axed when he was put back in charge and turned the company into what it is today.

vargis14 wrote:
custom water cooling system


vargis14 wrote:
Also If you have a problem our geniuses can fix most anything in our stores on the spot in a short amount of time right in front of you.


Yeah, ok, no.

vargis14 wrote:
the choice is totally up to you.


You don't understand Apple's business model. At all.
 
whm1974
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Re: Buying a Mac tonight

Tue Dec 01, 2015 4:12 pm

Redocbew wrote:
I wouldn't have said you did come off that way, but plenty of other people do. I've always thought it was one of the reasons why there's such a high attrition rate for people majoring in CS. One, because a lot of people who decide to try to make it in technology really just aren't that good at it, and also because once they get hit with everything they don't know it's not so interesting to them anymore.

Yeah I've been around these types before and I try not to be one of them.
Glorious wrote:
You don't understand Apple's business model. At all.

OK vargis14 and I really don't.
 
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Re: Buying a Mac tonight

Tue Dec 01, 2015 4:39 pm

As far as I'm concerned, Apple makes nice equipment at a premium price (compared to a lot of consumer-grade Windows machines out there, even if cheaper), aimed at the average user, and markets it well. The average user doesn't care about upgrading things. The average user isn't likely to try and repair the thing if anything breaks. The average user doesn't give a damn about overclocking. They just want it to work, which it generally does.

And frankly, I realized a while back that I don't care about overclocking (minimal gains compared to an SSD) or having top of the line hardware (I don't game), I just want it to work well. That said, I do like modular, repairable hardware. That's why I use business-grade equipment, and it works like a charm. Sure, biz PCs and Macs generally don't work well for gamers - and they're not aimed at that either.
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