Personal computing discussed

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whm1974
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Re: Buying a Mac tonight

Thu Dec 03, 2015 11:48 pm

I don't see why you are saying wtf here. You guys won this argument.
 
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Re: Buying a Mac tonight

Thu Dec 03, 2015 11:55 pm

whm1974 wrote:
I don't see why you are saying wtf here. You guys won this argument.

Yet you couldn't resist a parting shot.
Death is a side effect of birth.
 
whm1974
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Re: Buying a Mac tonight

Fri Dec 04, 2015 12:08 am

I make no claims about being perfect and I admit that I have flaws.
 
MarkG509
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Re: Buying a Mac tonight

Fri Dec 04, 2015 2:16 am

whm1974 wrote:
MacOS X is better then Windows.
I'll take the bait.[*]

Better than Win 7? No, not even close.
Better than Win 8.x? Definitely.
Better than Win 10? in some ways. I've moved most of my non-Linux computing over to OS/X. But, I'll take Linux over both Win10 and OS/X.

[*] I'm just killing time while my Galaxy Note 4 is downloading an update from 5.01 to 5.1.1, though not 6?!?
 
whm1974
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Re: Buying a Mac tonight

Fri Dec 04, 2015 2:29 am

I never used MacOS X before and most of my experience with Windows is with XP. I do have some limited experience with Windows 7 but is not much. Windows 8 I have used with ClassicShell as I loath the Metro UI, however I no longer use it.
 
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Re: Buying a Mac tonight

Fri Dec 04, 2015 3:40 am

MarkG509 wrote:
whm1974 wrote:
MacOS X is better then Windows.
I'll take the bait.[*]

Better than Win 7? No, not even close.
Better than Win 8.x? Definitely.
Better than Win 10? in some ways. I've moved most of my non-Linux computing over to OS/X. But, I'll take Linux over both Win10 and OS/X.

[*] I'm just killing time while my Galaxy Note 4 is downloading an update from 5.01 to 5.1.1, though not 6?!?

That's because iOS is better than Android :wink:
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SuperSpy
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Re: Buying a Mac tonight

Fri Dec 04, 2015 9:51 am

I used OS X 10.9 for a project a while back, for about 2 weeks, and although there was some frustration, it was mostly due to it being a 6 year old MacBook Air with only 2GB of RAM. I was however very impressed by how some of the things that always drove me bananas in Windows, like programs stealing focus, were completely fixed in OS X.

When my current laptop dies, I think a MacBook Pro is in my future. I feel like I'm getting really sick of Windows, especially with the continuous beta feel of 10. I just wish they would introduce a 17" retina version.
Desktop: i7-4790K @4.8 GHz | 32 GB | EVGA Gefore 1060 | Windows 10 x64
Laptop: i7 740QM | 12 GB | Mobility Radeon 5850 | Windows 10 x64
 
whm1974
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Re: Buying a Mac tonight

Fri Dec 04, 2015 10:01 am

You could use Linux with the XFCE desktop environment instead. www.system76.com offers a 17" notebook.
 
Glorious
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Re: Buying a Mac tonight

Fri Dec 04, 2015 10:14 am

whm1974 wrote:
Oh well it's Apple's loss not mine.


/facepalm

whm1974 wrote:
You could use Linux with the XFCE desktop environment instead. www.system76.com offers a 17" notebook.


Really, these things just aren't drop-in replacements...
 
SuperSpy
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Fri Dec 04, 2015 10:17 am

Yeah I've never had good luck with a Linux desktop. I always end up for some reason in terminal hell trying to get it working properly. Maybe I'm ~getting old~, but I'm starting the appreciate the appliance approach that Apple likes to chase, whereby I don't want to spend time tinkering trying to get something right, I just want to turn it on and get on with whatever work I'm trying to accomplish.
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whm1974
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Re: Buying a Mac tonight

Fri Dec 04, 2015 10:58 am

Glorious I really don't see why you are facepalming here. Isn't my money just as good as anyone else?

And SuperSpy, tinkering is part of the fun of using Linux. In fact I'm thinking of getting a notebook so I can try Linux From Scratch.
 
SuperSpy
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Re: Buying a Mac tonight

Fri Dec 04, 2015 11:03 am

whm1974 wrote:
And SuperSpy, tinkering is part of the fun of using Linux. In fact I'm thinking of getting a notebook so I can try Linux From Scratch.

There was a time I though tinkering was fun, now I just find it frustrating and time consuming.
Desktop: i7-4790K @4.8 GHz | 32 GB | EVGA Gefore 1060 | Windows 10 x64
Laptop: i7 740QM | 12 GB | Mobility Radeon 5850 | Windows 10 x64
 
Glorious
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Re: Buying a Mac tonight

Fri Dec 04, 2015 11:09 am

whm1974 wrote:
Isn't my money just as good as anyone else?


Absolutely: You can go buy any Apple device on display in any Apple store rightnowtoday.

They'll take your money, without any issue.

Oh? You actually meant something else? :roll:

Hence: /facepalm

whm1974 wrote:
And SuperSpy, tinkering is part of the fun of using Linux.


Not if you're actually trying to do something else, and *ABSOLUTELY NOT* if you're only aping such a stance to imply some sort of misapplied superiority.

Which, my dear friend, seems to be your MO. :wink:

whm1974 wrote:
In fact I'm thinking of getting a notebook so I can try Linux From Scratch.


You're going to spend hundreds of dollars to do something you can do in a VM for absolutely free? Or, if you for some reason wanted a physical machine, any obsolete desktop or Frankenbox of parts you have lying around? :o

There are cheaper and much more effective methods of social-status signalling, and I unfortunately have to be the one to tell that your signal is, in this case, entirely counter-productive. :P
 
Glorious
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Re: Buying a Mac tonight

Fri Dec 04, 2015 11:11 am

Superspy wrote:
There was a time I though tinkering was fun, now I just find it frustrating and time consuming.


What a strange concept! Computers actually assisting humans, instead of humans assisting computers.

Wow! What an idea!
 
whm1974
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Re: Buying a Mac tonight

Fri Dec 04, 2015 11:18 am

@Glorious I was thinking of getting a notebook anyway.
 
vargis14
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Re: Buying a Mac tonight

Fri Dec 04, 2015 11:27 am

If we are talking about flaws...I have plenty to go around.

Glorious when I said being nasty I guess the word stupid set me off. I may not have the writing skills you have but I do have ideas.
Also when I said Apple making a aluminum case it was meant for them to put their hardware in not to sell on the open market as a ATX case anyone could buy.

I know I get misinterpreted a lot on these glorious forums but you never see me calling anyone's idea stupid or anything like that.

I post on here to try to help anyone that needs it and I have been doing this since my vic 20, the 64 and my 1st real pc with a OS a 60mhz pentium that I upped to a pentium 120 with the Ovedrive chip they sold back then. then my next PC was a p2 300 from Cowland /Gateway that I installed 2 8mb Voodoo2 cards into it in SLI and was one of the 1st people to cut 2 80mm holes in my side panel to keep them from overheating during my long Warbirds WW2 sim flying days. I found that out when I got to a convention as a trainer for the company back when I was still on dial up and using roger wilco to command my squad of 30+ people. I showed up at the convention and most everyone out of 100+ people had their side panels off and little box fans keeping the GPU/GPU's cool which lead to a ride to radio shack and the closest computer store and we cleaned out every 80mm fan around and purchased a dremel and drill. Lets just say there was metal shavings everywhere.

I wish no one anything bad I respect everyone opinion and I expect the same.
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Glorious
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Re: Buying a Mac tonight

Fri Dec 04, 2015 11:37 am

whm1974 wrote:
Glorious I was thinking of getting a notebook anyway.


Look, fine, OK, but putting an essentially unsustainable installation of what's effectively embedded linux on it accomplishes what?

LFS is really just a instructive primer, it's not meant to be the basis of an actually used system. Even people who get all excited about distro-making almost always use an existing one as base. The endeavor is just ridiculously time-consuming, frustrating, maintenance intensive, and fraught with peril for any non-trivially basic system.

I don't understand the point of purchasing a notebook so that you can use it as a KMS framebuffer terminal. You're not getting a DE, you know that, right?

I don't get it, and I actually personally own and regularly use an actual physical terminal at home (vt510 at a screaming 115200 baud).

They don't cover DEs in LFS. It's yet another additional process with dependency issues that keep me up at night just thinking about it, not to mention all the additional patching/configuring the distros you won't get the benefit or wisdom of. LFS is a lot of very careful work that a takes a lot of time, BLFS is just crazy.
 
whm1974
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Re: Buying a Mac tonight

Fri Dec 04, 2015 11:40 am

The ideal behind me trying out LFS is so I can learn more about Linux. I am far from being an expert in Linux.
 
Beelzebubba9
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Re: Buying a Mac tonight

Fri Dec 04, 2015 11:55 am

whm1974 wrote:
The ideal behind me trying out LFS is so I can learn more about Linux. I am far from being an expert in Linux.


LFS is a great idea; I'd just recommend doing it in Virtual Box first. You'll have far fewer driver issues and you can snapshot the install at points in time to roll back to if you cock something up.
 
Glorious
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Re: Buying a Mac tonight

Fri Dec 04, 2015 11:56 am

vargis14 wrote:
Glorious when I said being nasty I guess the word stupid set me off. I may not have the writing skills you have but I do have ideas.


I never said you didn't, and I never said that all your ideas were bad. I said that a particular idea of yours was stupid: The thought that Apple should allow outside hardware.

I said this only because it nearly killed them in the early-to-mid 90s, whereas the moment they dumped that idea upon Job's return and invented the original iMac Apple started on a path to UTTERLY INSANE PROFITABILITY. Like, they're literally the most profitable company in history, or something.

It's one thing to say that the conventional wisdom is wrong and than argue how. It's entirely another to ignore it completely and advocate things entirely contrary to it. In a case like this, in which I've seen *TWO* movies that dramatically pivot on Job's return to Apple and the start of his collaboration with Ive, and there's another huge movie that I've yet to see, you must contend with that. Until you do, yes, it's a stupid idea. Sorry.

vargis14 wrote:
Also when I said Apple making a aluminum case it was meant for them to put their hardware in not to sell on the open market as a ATX case anyone could buy.


But that isn't different than advocating a return to the pre-2012 Mac Pro, which you also advocated. So, I mean, what would you expect me to think to you actually meant? :-?

vargis14 wrote:
I know I get misinterpreted a lot on these glorious forums but you never see me calling anyone's idea stupid or anything like that.


I don't want to tell you man, it's an outrageously dumb idea for the reasons I've listed, and you just ignore them. That's an incredibly strange thing to do when both Hollywood *and* Business Academia have turned Jobs into a saint (if not a outright GOD)and treat the moment where he explicitly decided to STOP doing what you recommend now as the inflection point for drama & strategic vision. Plus, you know, Apple is making so much money that words cannot convey its quantity.

vargis14 wrote:
I wish no one anything bad I respect everyone opinion and I expect the same.


Your opinion is clearly just naked wish fulfillment, and the wish itself isn't very coherent. Why does that demand respect?
 
whm1974
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Re: Buying a Mac tonight

Fri Dec 04, 2015 11:57 am

Thanks for the tip Beelzebubba9.
 
Glorious
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Re: Buying a Mac tonight

Fri Dec 04, 2015 11:58 am

whm1974 wrote:
The ideal behind me trying out LFS is so I can learn more about Linux. I am far from being an expert in Linux.


Then save money, frustration, and time by doing it in a VM.

As Beelzebubba9 notes, snapshots will be a godsend. You have to be insanely fastidious to avoid making mistakes, they're just about inevitable.
 
alloyD
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Re: Buying a Mac tonight

Fri Dec 04, 2015 12:07 pm

I definitely wouldn't install LFS on bare metal on anything that you actually want to use. It's great from an academic standpoint, but definitely do it in a VM. Even if you get it all running nicely, the maintenance would be a nightmare. Modern package managers take care of an amazing amount of tedious delicate work for you. Even a fairly manual distro like Arch Linux would be infinitely more usable than LFS I think.
"The danger lies not in the machine itself but in the user's failure to envision the full consequences of the instructions he gives to it." --Neil Stephenson
 
whm1974
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Re: Buying a Mac tonight

Fri Dec 04, 2015 12:16 pm

@alloyD Yeah Arch Linux or Slackware does sound like a better idea then LFS. Thanks.

@Glorious Neither vargis14 or I are asking Apple to quit selling iMacs. We are just simply asking them to offer a basic tower for us geeks to use.
 
alloyD
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Re: Buying a Mac tonight

Fri Dec 04, 2015 12:26 pm

whm1974 wrote:
@alloyD Yeah Arch Linux or Slackware does sound like a better idea then LFS. Thanks.

Always happy to help out anyone interested in Linux! :)
Just don't go for an "elitist" distro because they're somehow "better." Use what you think will be most useful/enjoyable for you. For example: At work I use Arch because I like the fine-grained control and customization it offers. My desktop at home runs Mint because my wife also uses it and she has no interest in that level of control. Both are great.
"The danger lies not in the machine itself but in the user's failure to envision the full consequences of the instructions he gives to it." --Neil Stephenson
 
whm1974
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Re: Buying a Mac tonight

Fri Dec 04, 2015 12:29 pm

I have been using Linux for a long time. I'm just not as knowledgeable in Linux as I like to be.
 
Glorious
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Re: Buying a Mac tonight

Fri Dec 04, 2015 12:40 pm

whm1974 wrote:
We are just simply asking them to offer a basic tower for us geeks to use.


It won't make them more money, they don't want that market, and I don't understand why people who want to "tinker" would even be interested in Apple products.

Apple's strategy is working so incredibly well for them that I'm honestly confused as what either of you are thinking.

You are essentially advocating that we pluck all the feathers on the goose that lays golden eggs, arguing that we could make a few pennies selling them.

That's not the point, the point is WHY WOULD YOU EVER MESS WITH THAT GOOSE?

Are you crazy?
 
beepboy
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Re: Buying a Mac tonight

Fri Dec 04, 2015 12:47 pm

I would buy a refurb iMac. I would never buy a new Apple computer. They carry the same warranty but costs significantly less.
 
whm1974
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Re: Buying a Mac tonight

Fri Dec 04, 2015 12:56 pm

Glorious wrote:
That's not the point, the point is WHY WOULD YOU EVER MESS WITH THAT GOOSE?

We're not. We are just adding another goose that lays golden eggs to keep the first goose company.
 
Glorious
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Re: Buying a Mac tonight

Fri Dec 04, 2015 1:06 pm

whm1974 wrote:
We are just adding another goose that lays golden eggs


Do you seriously think that describes that computer enthusiast community? :o

...Have you been paying attention to the various changes that have been occurring both here and elsewhere this year, most notably in the last few days? :cry:
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