Personal computing discussed

Moderators: David, Thresher

 
Waco
Gold subscriber
Minister of Gerbil Affairs
Posts: 2077
Joined: Tue Jan 20, 2009 4:14 pm
Location: Los Alamos, NM

Re: Apple working on ARM chips for Macs

Wed Feb 08, 2017 4:44 pm

ludi wrote:
Waco wrote:
It's a doorway to running on full ARM chips.  There's no other end-road to this.  They get the basics done for low-power active sleep, then start cranking on making the entire stack run fully on ARM.

I wouldn't make that assumption just yet.  Low power design features are often at direct odds with high performance, which is part of the reason why both Apple and Google implemented a coprocessor scheme in their recent phone designs.  Apple uses a Motion Coprocessor (iPhone 6 and up) to gather and interpret sensor data before deciding whether to bother the main CPU about it; Google's Sensor Hub (Nexus 5X/6P & Pixel) does that and also manages the camera and outbound radios.

Edit: For Apple, it's actually the iPhone 5S and up, along with various tablets and most iPads starting with the Air generation.  Also some Microsoft, Motorola, Samsung products, etc. have their own hub or integrate another vendor's solution.

Sure, but I don't see any reason they couldn't do something similar in the non-Pro versions of the Mac. There are some high-performance ARM designs, and they could easily go with a BIG.little design for the new Mac once they figure these humps out.
Z170A Gaming Pro Carbon | 6700K @ 4.5 | 16 GB | GTX Titan X | Seasonix Gold 850 | XSPC RX360 | Heatkiller R3 | D5 + RP-452X2 | Cosmos II | Samsung 4K 40" | 480 + 240 + LSI 9207-8i (128x8) SSDs
 
the
Gold subscriber
Gerbil Elite
Posts: 872
Joined: Tue Jun 29, 2010 2:26 am

Re: Apple working on ARM chips for Macs

Wed Feb 08, 2017 6:34 pm

Apple is already ahead in this area. The A10 already uses a big.LITTLE design with both sizes of cores being custom designs. Apple went the extra step and closely integrated how the two cores transition between the big and little sides. This does come at the expensive of Apple not supporting an 'all on' mode where all four cores are exposed to the host OS.
Dual Opteron 6376, 96 GB DDR3, Asus KGPE-D16, GTX 970
Mac Pro Dual Xeon E5645, 48 GB DDR3, GTX 770
Core i7 3930K@4.2 Ghz, 32 GB DDR3, GA-X79-UP5-Wifi
Core i7 2600K@4.4 Ghz, 16 GB DDR3, GTX 970, GA-X68XP-UD4
 
Chrispy_
Gold subscriber
Maximum Gerbil
Posts: 4136
Joined: Fri Apr 09, 2004 3:49 pm
Location: Europe, most frequently London.

Re: Apple working on ARM chips for Macs

Thu Feb 09, 2017 9:10 am

Vhalidictes wrote:
My mistake, JBI - I had just read _Chrispy's post: "And of course DirectX 9/10/11/12 for, uh, Apple gaming."

You're right, people not planning on playing games can pretty much already virtualize anything needed.

In my line of work (AEC industry) it's not just gaming; I've yet to find a common 3D modelling or BIM tool that will run well in a VM, and I assume the same requirements apply to anyone working with 3D content in the game, film or digital effects industry.
But yeah, casual PC gaming is a pretty huge demographic, too. I wouldn't automatically assume that all Apple users don't want to play any kind of PC game at all. 
Congratulations, you've noticed that this year's signature is based on outdated internet memes; CLICK HERE NOW to experience this unforgettable phenomenon. This sentence is just filler and as irrelevant as my signature.
 
Klickey
Gerbil
Posts: 16
Joined: Fri Nov 17, 2017 9:47 am

Re: Apple working on ARM chips for Macs

Mon Nov 27, 2017 7:36 am

I heard the news. Apple is trying to reduce relying on their supplier for components. I thought they can do this long ago already, they're such a big company with talented employees and IT experts.
Every once in a while, a new technology, an old problem, and a big idea turn into an innovation - Dean Kamen :D
 
derFunkenstein
Gold subscriber
Gerbil God
Posts: 23913
Joined: Fri Feb 21, 2003 9:13 pm
Location: Comin' to you directly from the Mothership

Re: Apple working on ARM chips for Macs

Mon Nov 27, 2017 8:34 am

Klickey wrote:
I heard the news. Apple is trying to reduce relying on their supplier for components. I thought they can do this long ago already, they're such a big company with talented employees and IT experts.

They still don't fab their own stuff. Shifting to ARM means shifting away from relying on Intel and towards relying on TSMC/Samsung. Until Apple buys its own fabs, you don't have to worry about them going ARM-only in Macs.

The way they're doing it right now they're getting tiny chips from other suppliers, and that's fine. Building the Mac's CPU on ARM means much larger dies.

Super-risky, and 2017 Apple is very risk-averse.
I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do.
 
NTMBK
Gerbil Team Leader
Posts: 250
Joined: Sat Dec 21, 2013 11:21 am

Re: Apple working on ARM chips for Macs

Mon Nov 27, 2017 8:48 am

derFunkenstein wrote:
Klickey wrote:
I heard the news. Apple is trying to reduce relying on their supplier for components. I thought they can do this long ago already, they're such a big company with talented employees and IT experts.

They still don't fab their own stuff. Shifting to ARM means shifting away from relying on Intel and towards relying on TSMC/Samsung. Until Apple buys its own fabs, you don't have to worry about them going ARM-only in Macs.

The way they're doing it right now they're getting tiny chips from other suppliers, and that's fine. Building the Mac's CPU on ARM means much larger dies.

Super-risky, and 2017 Apple is very risk-averse.


The Apple A9X was a 147mm^2 die, bigger than a Skylake quad core. They really aren't tiny any more.
 
just brew it!
Gold subscriber
Administrator
Posts: 50026
Joined: Tue Aug 20, 2002 10:51 pm
Location: Somewhere, having a beer

Re: Apple working on ARM chips for Macs

Mon Nov 27, 2017 8:52 am

Just because they're good at designing iDevices doesn't mean they know how to design/fab an entire CPU chip. Engineering skills in one area generally don't translate easily to another. That said, they did some of their own SoC design after their acquisition of PA Semi (which brought former AMD CPU designer Jim Keller to Apple); presumably in-house efforts like that are still ongoing, but I honestly have no idea.
Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
 
NTMBK
Gerbil Team Leader
Posts: 250
Joined: Sat Dec 21, 2013 11:21 am

Re: Apple working on ARM chips for Macs

Mon Nov 27, 2017 9:16 am

just brew it! wrote:
Just because they're good at designing iDevices doesn't mean they know how to design/fab an entire CPU chip. Engineering skills in one area generally don't translate easily to another. That said, they did some of their own SoC design after their acquisition of PA Semi (which brought former AMD CPU designer Jim Keller to Apple); presumably in-house efforts like that are still ongoing, but I honestly have no idea.


They do more than just "some" SoC design. They design their own custom CPU core, and it is the most efficient and powerful mobile CPU in the world. They now also design their own GPU (having ditched Imagination).
 
just brew it!
Gold subscriber
Administrator
Posts: 50026
Joined: Tue Aug 20, 2002 10:51 pm
Location: Somewhere, having a beer

Re: Apple working on ARM chips for Macs

Mon Nov 27, 2017 9:34 am

It's still an ARM core (not a from-scratch design), and they rely on 3rd party fabs.
Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
 
NTMBK
Gerbil Team Leader
Posts: 250
Joined: Sat Dec 21, 2013 11:21 am

Re: Apple working on ARM chips for Macs

Mon Nov 27, 2017 10:31 am

just brew it! wrote:
It's still an ARM core (not a from-scratch design), and they rely on 3rd party fabs.


It uses the ARM instruction set, but it's not an ARM CPU design. It's a from-scratch design. Similar to how AMD makes chips that run an Intel ISA, but they aren't Intel cores.

And relying on 3rd party fabs gives them the flexibility to use whichever fab is doing best this generation. Intel, in the meantime, is stuck with the fabs who have been failing to ship 10nm for about 3 years now.
 
derFunkenstein
Gold subscriber
Gerbil God
Posts: 23913
Joined: Fri Feb 21, 2003 9:13 pm
Location: Comin' to you directly from the Mothership

Re: Apple working on ARM chips for Macs

Mon Nov 27, 2017 10:49 am

NTMBK wrote:
The Apple A9X was a 147mm^2 die, bigger than a Skylake quad core. They really aren't tiny any more.

The A9X is an iPad Pro chip. It didn't ship in nearly the same quantities that the regular A9 in the iPhone 6S family does, and it's slower than the Skylake quad, besides.

Also, it was a bigger die because it doesn't have the transistor density. We all know that there's a world of difference between TSMC/Samsung/GloFo "10nm" and Intel's "10nm" processes. Everyone else's manufacturing suffers from what can be kindly referred to as "marketing deflation" and more realistically termed "utter BS".
I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do.
 
End User
Gold subscriber
Minister of Gerbil Affairs
Topic Author
Posts: 2513
Joined: Fri Apr 16, 2004 6:47 pm
Location: Upper Canada

Re: Apple working on ARM chips for Macs

Mon Nov 27, 2017 1:32 pm

derFunkenstein wrote:
They still don't fab their own stuff. Shifting to ARM means shifting away from relying on Intel and towards relying on TSMC/Samsung. Until Apple buys its own fabs, you don't have to worry about them going ARM-only in Macs.

The way they're doing it right now they're getting tiny chips from other suppliers, and that's fine. Building the Mac's CPU on ARM means much larger dies.

Super-risky, and 2017 Apple is very risk-averse.

Being fabless does not appear to be an issue for todays Apple. In the past year alone Apple sold roughly 260 million ARM based devices. In the same period they sold roughly 19 million Macs. Ramping up for 20 Million ARM based Macs a year is less than a 10% bump in production capacity.

Why is a larger die size risky?
1800X | 32GB | 1TB M.2 | Vega 64 + 38UC99-W | RX 480 + U2711
1950X | 64GB | 500 GB M.2 | 1 TB M.2 | 1 TB M.2 | GTX 1080 + XB271HU | GTX 1060 + U2713H
 
DancinJack
Grand Gerbil Poohbah
Posts: 3248
Joined: Sat Nov 25, 2006 3:21 pm
Location: Kansas

Re: Apple working on ARM chips for Macs

Mon Nov 27, 2017 1:45 pm

End User wrote:
Why is a larger die size risky?


I mean, you know the answer to this. A larger die just isn't going to yield at the same rate as a smaller die.
i7 6700K - Z170 - 16GiB DDR4 - GTX 1080 - 512GB SSD - 256GB SSD - 500GB SSD - 3TB HDD- 27" IPS G-sync - Win10 Pro x64 - Ubuntu/Mint x64 :: 2015 13" rMBP Sierra :: Canon EOS 80D/Sony RX100
 
End User
Gold subscriber
Minister of Gerbil Affairs
Topic Author
Posts: 2513
Joined: Fri Apr 16, 2004 6:47 pm
Location: Upper Canada

Re: Apple working on ARM chips for Macs

Mon Nov 27, 2017 2:34 pm

derFunkenstein wrote:
NTMBK wrote:
The Apple A9X was a 147mm^2 die, bigger than a Skylake quad core. They really aren't tiny any more.

The A9X is an iPad Pro chip. It didn't ship in nearly the same quantities that the regular A9 in the iPhone 6S family does, and it's slower than the Skylake quad, besides.

Also, it was a bigger die because it doesn't have the transistor density. We all know that there's a world of difference between TSMC/Samsung/GloFo "10nm" and Intel's "10nm" processes. Everyone else's manufacturing suffers from what can be kindly referred to as "marketing deflation" and more realistically termed "utter BS".

The A11's die size dropped to 87.66 mm². Kaby Lake quad core mobile has a die size of 123 mm².

A very rough performance comparison shows the A11 putting up a decent fight against a quad core Kaby Lake 7920HQ (ignore that Metal score for the A11).
1800X | 32GB | 1TB M.2 | Vega 64 + 38UC99-W | RX 480 + U2711
1950X | 64GB | 500 GB M.2 | 1 TB M.2 | 1 TB M.2 | GTX 1080 + XB271HU | GTX 1060 + U2713H
 
End User
Gold subscriber
Minister of Gerbil Affairs
Topic Author
Posts: 2513
Joined: Fri Apr 16, 2004 6:47 pm
Location: Upper Canada

Re: Apple working on ARM chips for Macs

Mon Nov 27, 2017 2:36 pm

DancinJack wrote:
End User wrote:
Why is a larger die size risky?


I mean, you know the answer to this. A larger die just isn't going to yield at the same rate as a smaller die.

The A11's die size is 87.66 mm². Kaby Lake quad core mobile has a die size of 123 mm². Intel is DOOMED!
1800X | 32GB | 1TB M.2 | Vega 64 + 38UC99-W | RX 480 + U2711
1950X | 64GB | 500 GB M.2 | 1 TB M.2 | 1 TB M.2 | GTX 1080 + XB271HU | GTX 1060 + U2713H
 
DancinJack
Grand Gerbil Poohbah
Posts: 3248
Joined: Sat Nov 25, 2006 3:21 pm
Location: Kansas

Re: Apple working on ARM chips for Macs

Mon Nov 27, 2017 2:42 pm

lol all hail Geekbench? C'mon End User.

Oh and btw, I am and have been a supporter and advocate of Apple and their products here and otherwise. If you think the A11 and its performance is comparable to Kaby Lake then I don't know how to help you. There are plenty of things ARM chips are good at. Lots of things Apple is good at. That doesn't mean they can compete (yet) with Intel at 15-35/45W.
i7 6700K - Z170 - 16GiB DDR4 - GTX 1080 - 512GB SSD - 256GB SSD - 500GB SSD - 3TB HDD- 27" IPS G-sync - Win10 Pro x64 - Ubuntu/Mint x64 :: 2015 13" rMBP Sierra :: Canon EOS 80D/Sony RX100
 
End User
Gold subscriber
Minister of Gerbil Affairs
Topic Author
Posts: 2513
Joined: Fri Apr 16, 2004 6:47 pm
Location: Upper Canada

Re: Apple working on ARM chips for Macs

Mon Nov 27, 2017 2:48 pm

DancinJack wrote:
lol all hail Geekbench? C'mon End User.

Bury yer head in the sand if you wish.
1800X | 32GB | 1TB M.2 | Vega 64 + 38UC99-W | RX 480 + U2711
1950X | 64GB | 500 GB M.2 | 1 TB M.2 | 1 TB M.2 | GTX 1080 + XB271HU | GTX 1060 + U2713H
 
End User
Gold subscriber
Minister of Gerbil Affairs
Topic Author
Posts: 2513
Joined: Fri Apr 16, 2004 6:47 pm
Location: Upper Canada

Re: Apple working on ARM chips for Macs

Mon Nov 27, 2017 2:53 pm

DancinJack wrote:
If you think the A11 and its performance is comparable to Kaby Lake then I don't know how to help you.

Not at all. The writing is on the wall though. I'm amazed at the performance of my 2017 iPad Pro 12.9". That thing rocks.
1800X | 32GB | 1TB M.2 | Vega 64 + 38UC99-W | RX 480 + U2711
1950X | 64GB | 500 GB M.2 | 1 TB M.2 | 1 TB M.2 | GTX 1080 + XB271HU | GTX 1060 + U2713H
 
derFunkenstein
Gold subscriber
Gerbil God
Posts: 23913
Joined: Fri Feb 21, 2003 9:13 pm
Location: Comin' to you directly from the Mothership

Re: Apple working on ARM chips for Macs

Mon Nov 27, 2017 3:30 pm

Apple's new iPad ads include a kid saying "what's a computer?" so I'm sure it won't be long before the Mac is dropped entirely. :lol:
I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do.
 
Glorious
Gold subscriber
Grand Admiral Gerbil
Posts: 10393
Joined: Tue Aug 27, 2002 6:35 pm

Re: Apple working on ARM chips for Macs

Mon Nov 27, 2017 3:40 pm

derfunk wrote:
Apple's new iPad ads include a kid saying "what's a computer?" so I'm sure it won't be long before the Mac is dropped entirely


"Introducing the REVOLUTIONARY, INNOVATIVE, ENTIRELY NEW, iOS SDK device!"

<CROWD GOES WILD. A PC is thrown into the rabid throng only to be torn apart in seconds by bare hands & teeth. End User drops dead instantly, croaking "....but it was USB 3.1 GEN 1?!" as he is fatally poisoned by a piece of an obsolete USB 3.0 port.>

Notice as required by law: Product described herein was formerly known as the Macintosh
 
Usacomp2k3
Gerbil God
Posts: 21730
Joined: Thu Apr 01, 2004 4:53 pm
Location: Orlando, FL
Contact:

Re: Apple working on ARM chips for Macs

Mon Nov 27, 2017 3:55 pm

derFunkenstein wrote:
Apple's new iPad ads include a kid saying "what's a computer?" so I'm sure it won't be long before the Mac is dropped entirely. :lol:

Although you can now use an iPad as a 2nd screen for a Mac, which has now come full-circle.
 
End User
Gold subscriber
Minister of Gerbil Affairs
Topic Author
Posts: 2513
Joined: Fri Apr 16, 2004 6:47 pm
Location: Upper Canada

Re: Apple working on ARM chips for Macs

Mon Nov 27, 2017 4:21 pm

Usacomp2k3 wrote:
derFunkenstein wrote:
Apple's new iPad ads include a kid saying "what's a computer?" so I'm sure it won't be long before the Mac is dropped entirely. :lol:

Although you can now use an iPad as a 2nd screen for a Mac, which has now come full-circle.

I backed the Luna Display.

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/76 ... na-display
1800X | 32GB | 1TB M.2 | Vega 64 + 38UC99-W | RX 480 + U2711
1950X | 64GB | 500 GB M.2 | 1 TB M.2 | 1 TB M.2 | GTX 1080 + XB271HU | GTX 1060 + U2713H
 
End User
Gold subscriber
Minister of Gerbil Affairs
Topic Author
Posts: 2513
Joined: Fri Apr 16, 2004 6:47 pm
Location: Upper Canada

Re: Apple working on ARM chips for Macs

Mon Nov 27, 2017 4:22 pm

Glorious wrote:
derfunk wrote:
Apple's new iPad ads include a kid saying "what's a computer?" so I'm sure it won't be long before the Mac is dropped entirely


"Introducing the REVOLUTIONARY, INNOVATIVE, ENTIRELY NEW, iOS SDK device!"

<CROWD GOES WILD. A PC is thrown into the rabid throng only to be torn apart in seconds by bare hands & teeth. End User drops dead instantly, croaking "....but it was USB 3.1 GEN 1?!" as he is fatally poisoned by a piece of an obsolete USB 3.0 port.>

What a horrible way to die. I'm going to have a horrible dream tonight. Thanks a bunch.
1800X | 32GB | 1TB M.2 | Vega 64 + 38UC99-W | RX 480 + U2711
1950X | 64GB | 500 GB M.2 | 1 TB M.2 | 1 TB M.2 | GTX 1080 + XB271HU | GTX 1060 + U2713H
 
End User
Gold subscriber
Minister of Gerbil Affairs
Topic Author
Posts: 2513
Joined: Fri Apr 16, 2004 6:47 pm
Location: Upper Canada

Re: Apple working on ARM chips for Macs

Mon Nov 27, 2017 4:26 pm

derFunkenstein wrote:
Apple's new iPad ads include a kid saying "what's a computer?" so I'm sure it won't be long before the Mac is dropped entirely. :lol:

There was some dude who summed it up nicely. If only I could remember who...


... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YfJ3QxJYsw8
1800X | 32GB | 1TB M.2 | Vega 64 + 38UC99-W | RX 480 + U2711
1950X | 64GB | 500 GB M.2 | 1 TB M.2 | 1 TB M.2 | GTX 1080 + XB271HU | GTX 1060 + U2713H
 
derFunkenstein
Gold subscriber
Gerbil God
Posts: 23913
Joined: Fri Feb 21, 2003 9:13 pm
Location: Comin' to you directly from the Mothership

Re: Apple working on ARM chips for Macs

Mon Nov 27, 2017 5:21 pm

Apple marketing pushes Apple exec belief that the PC is dead? Shocking.
I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do.
 
Captain Ned
Gold subscriber
Global Moderator
Posts: 26568
Joined: Wed Jan 16, 2002 7:00 pm
Location: Vermont, USA

Re: Apple working on ARM chips for Macs

Mon Nov 27, 2017 5:27 pm

derFunkenstein wrote:
Apple marketing pushes Apple exec belief that the PC is dead? Shocking.

Film at 11:

https://youtu.be/VMt2MK67-Qw
Death is a side effect of birth.

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest