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SuperSpy · Fri Nov 02, 2018 2:11 pm

The issue I remember about GeekBench is that (IIRC, it's been a long time since I've read up on it) Geekbench doesn't do a very good job of making comparable scores between platforms, specifically because it uses different code to run on different platforms. That behavior is basically the opposite of the way the SPEC benchmarks (attempt to) work, trying create a valid apples-to-apples comparison.

dragontamer5788 · Fri Nov 02, 2018 2:17 pm

SuperSpy wrote:
The issue I remember about GeekBench is that (IIRC, it's been a long time since I've read up on it) Geekbench doesn't do a very good job of making comparable scores between platforms, specifically because it uses different code to run on different platforms. That behavior is basically the opposite of the way the SPEC benchmarks (attempt to) work, trying create a valid apples-to-apples comparison.

Yes. But the benchmarks being supplied in the overall Apple discussion also include SPECint results.

Its a bit difficult because the discussion happened in another thread. But here's here the SPECint2006 results were being discussed: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=121391

So, as a whole, there are two benchmarks being discussed with these new 7nm iPads and iPhones: the Geekbench 4 scores, and Anandtech's unofficial SPECint2006 scores. Granted, the SPECint2006 score from Anandtech was on the A12 (iPhone) chip, not the iPad chip, but I think its safe to assume that Apple is using a similar core design between the two processors.

Glorious · Fri Nov 02, 2018 2:22 pm

Derfunkenstein wrote:
And I'm sure that just like PPC -> x86, a theoretical x86_64 -> ARM64 transition will have all first party apps recompiled with universal binaries on day 1. Long-winded theorizing short, Apple isn't dumb and they won't transition without having everything perfectly aligned. Just like last time.

I'm just trying to figure out who on this forum even disagrees with you. I don't. I can't name anyone who does.

I think you've brilliantly summed up, in general, what the general position on Apple is(not even -should- be, just already is!) on these forums.

Can we just take what you just said and impute that position to everyone here by default? We'll call it "Derfunk's Restatement on Apple. Section I: MacOS and ARM"

That is, unless someone specifically disagrees with it, we all assume that everyone does agree with it?

---

If I'm off-base, can someone name the person who doesn't believe that Apple is building MacOS et al on ARM, or that Apple will never release an ARM-based MacOS product?

If that doesn't happen, can we stop talking about it as an obvious distraction from the things we don't agree about?

SuperSpy · Fri Nov 02, 2018 2:26 pm

derFunkenstein wrote:
It just doesn't make sense to have those kinds of arguments until it's possible. Anything else is just wild speculation. If that day comes, you'll get to evaluate it before you buy it.

I'm not sure I agree with this logic. It makes sense if you're trying to get an idea what Apple might do in the near future. Especially as it's a logical next step for a company as successful/obsessed at vertical integration as Apple.

Redocbew · Fri Nov 02, 2018 2:38 pm

derFunkenstein wrote:
Photoshop on a tablet seems like a decent fit to me, but I'm not an artist and don't have any real-world experience with the Apple Pencil. Maybe Illustrator would have been better. Anything where a Wacom tablet connected to a PC was the best way to go seems like a very natural use case for a tablet, assuming it's really fast enough.

I'm moving away from doing as much frontend stuff these days, but I know enough to be dangerous. Performance aside, the questions I have about this are: Are you going to be able to quickly switch between layers? How to do you add or subtract from a selection you've already made? How are you going to access all the various dialog boxes for channels, levels, filters, and so on? There's also all the keystrokes that designers have memorized over the years for doing these things. Tapping and swiping multiple times in various spots on a touchscreen seems like a bad tradeoff compared to that.

And that's not even touching the issue of color. Again, I'm sure the panel its self will do the job just fine, but the rituals I've seen designers conduct around their monitors in order to get accurate color reproduction are often quite elaborate. Can you hook up an X-rite to a tablet and calibrate it the same way you would a desktop display? The variable environments that come with using a mobile device seem to be completely at odds with that as well.

It's cool, I guess, but since I'm not that interested in widgets just for the sake of having widgets I don't really see the point.

Usacomp2k3 · Fri Nov 02, 2018 2:41 pm

So your questions are more about interface/UI than performance.

Glorious · Fri Nov 02, 2018 2:44 pm

dragontamer5788 wrote:
Otherwise, what's wrong about writing a C-program, compiling it for ARM (or x86), and then running the program on both platforms to see how the two chips compare?

Because that only applies to some of what Geekbench does.

-It has hand-tuned vector stuff, both for FP CPU compute and Memory bandwidth.
-All the GPU compute stuff is totally dependent on an API provided by the OS, and by extension, the driver and ultimately GPU that OS uses.

Geekbench 4 is dramatically better than 3, but it isn't what you are presenting it as.

dragontamer5788 wrote:
So I have to ask: what is fundamentally wrong about a cross-platform benchmark like Geekbench 4, or SPECint ?? I mean, aside from benchmark related issues (like SPECint doesn't really push FPUs or vector-units very hard. But otherwise it seems like a good representation of 64-bit integer-based code). We've definitely got to analyze the benchmarks to ensure that they're reasonable, but the overall methodology doesn't seem flawed to me at all.

SPECint is better, but benchmarks, and suites of synthetic benchmarks, are what they are.

For one thing, it doesn't push FPUs hard because it doesn't push them at all: the int stands for integer. SPECfp is for the FPU.

It's something, but it isn't everything. Are you filtering mail with perl on your phone (or your PC)? How about simulating a quantum computer? Do you use bz? Why aren't you using an ASIC for x264?

Again, let's go back to Derfunk's restatement (Section II: Apple's ARM is way, way better than anyone else's ARM, and is a very impressive chip): No one is contesting that is it very, very fast.

We are just pointing out that exuberance should be constrained by knowable facts, and that many of the people promoting this hype aren't... technically all that ...adept.

They seem to have significant misunderstanding, typically, it seems.

Again, we all defer to Derfunk's wonderful restatements: We're not disputing that it is fast.

dragontamer5788 wrote:
But Geekbench4 / SPECint are specified at the C-level. The only things being tested are the OS, the compiler, and the chip.

Again, this is demonstrably untrue in regards to Geekbench.

derFunkenstein · Fri Nov 02, 2018 2:47 pm

Glorious wrote:
If I'm off-base, can someone name the person who doesn't believe that Apple is building MacOS et al on ARM, or that Apple will never release an ARM-based MacOS product?

If that doesn't happen, can we stop talking about it as an obvious distraction from the things we don't agree about?

He's not here right now, but chuckula, right? :lol:

I'll stop. Message received. Mission accomplished. :wink:

Glorious · Fri Nov 02, 2018 2:49 pm

SuperSpy wrote:
I'm not sure I agree with this logic. It makes sense if you're trying to get an idea what Apple might do in the near future. Especially as it's a logical next step for a company as successful/obsessed at vertical integration as Apple.

Again, who is making the case that Apple won't be releasing ARM-based MacOS?

Maybe this is my restatement: "Glorious's Restatement on Apple, Section I: Apple could have released an ARM-based Macbook air-like consumer laptop in 2016 without significant disruption".

Until anyone actually contests that, can we stop acting like it's something anyone is tilting at?

Glorious · Fri Nov 02, 2018 2:53 pm

Redocbew wrote:
I'm moving away from doing as much frontend stuff these days, but I know enough to be dangerous. Performance aside, the questions I have about this are: Are you going to be able to quickly switch between layers? How to do you add or subtract from a selection you've already made? How are you going to access all the various dialog boxes for channels, levels, filters, and so on? There's also all the keystrokes that designers have memorized over the years for doing these things. Tapping and swiping multiple times in various spots on a touchscreen seems like a bad tradeoff compared to that.

I don't most people really appreciate how people who professionally use Photoshop, use Photoshop.

It's not how normals use Photoshop. It's not even close.

Redocbew · Fri Nov 02, 2018 2:55 pm

It's like watching someone use emacs who really knows how to use emacs. It's the fastest way to feel like a linux noob again.

Glorious · Fri Nov 02, 2018 3:20 pm

derfunk wrote:
He's not here right now, but chuckula, right?

Even then, idk, he's more of an intel zealot, when it comes down to it?

End User · Mon Nov 05, 2018 1:04 pm

A 1TB computer equipped with a 10Gbps Type C port should get native OS external storage support ASAP:

Rene Ritchie's review:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S6femN2uU5k

The Verge:

https://www.theverge.com/2018/11/5/1806 ... e-features

DancinJack · Mon Nov 05, 2018 1:10 pm

End User wrote:
A 1TB computer equipped with a 10Gbps Type C port should get native OS external storage support ASAP:

Hard agree, but it won't.

edit: While we're at it, it should also be able to use secondary displays as extensions rather than just mirror.
edit2: Ritchie's video made me remember just how much i hate the shiny edge on the iPhone X/s

End User · Mon Nov 05, 2018 1:23 pm

I agree with what both Nilay and Dieter (over at The Verge) are saying about the hardware surpassing the OS:

"And @gruber is right about the performance here. There aren’t enough superlatives — and it’s time for the software to live up to it."

https://daringfireball.net/2018/11/the_2018_ipad_pros

https://twitter.com/backlon/status/1059 ... 28/photo/1

Glorious · Mon Nov 05, 2018 1:34 pm

End User wrote:
I agree with what both Nilay and Dieter (over at The Verge) are saying about the hardware surpassing the OS:

What does that even mean?

End User · Mon Nov 05, 2018 1:36 pm

Glorious wrote:
End User wrote:
I agree with what both Nilay and Dieter (over at The Verge) are saying about the hardware surpassing the OS:

What does that even mean?

Everything and nothing.

Redocbew · Mon Nov 05, 2018 1:38 pm

I have to say though, I really don't understand what's so nifty about the idea of a tablet with external storage support. Isn't the whole point of a tablet that it's a self-containted, easily portable device?

Just to be clear here, I know EU is just continuing to froth at the mouth over some imagined widget, and the thread at this point doesn't really have much to do with reality. Just curious what the fuss is about.

Glorious · Mon Nov 05, 2018 1:41 pm

I'm asking seriously: What does "hardware surpasses the OS" mean?

The only way that makes any sense is if we are talking about running some ancient OS on newer hardware. You know, like trying to run Windows ME on Ryzen or something.

If we are talking about and OS and hardware that was released at the same time, hardware that can only run that OS, the only thing I can see as applicable is if the hardware has some feature that the current OS doesn't support--yet.

Is that the case here? Or are those guys just breathlessly gushing about performance and you're just lapping it up?

Glorious · Mon Nov 05, 2018 1:42 pm

Redocbew wrote:
I really don't understand what's so nifty about the idea of a tablet with external storage support.

Just wait until we add a built-in keyboard, and an oficial companion dock!

Oh, and ethernet!

Redocbew · Mon Nov 05, 2018 1:44 pm

You clearly don't understand how this works. An ethernet port? In 2018? Why not just give people a rock and sharp sticks to go with it?

Glorious · Mon Nov 05, 2018 1:45 pm

I still shudder at the savagery of analog sound.

DancinJack · Mon Nov 05, 2018 1:45 pm

haha fwiw, USB 3.1 Gen2 supports ethernet! you need a dongle, but it should work! (I SHOULD say, you can connect a hub/dock that has ethernet is what i mean)

Glorious · Mon Nov 05, 2018 1:51 pm

Really, having innumerable hubs & dongles is indisputably cleaner and more "futurish" than unsightly ports.

DancinJack · Mon Nov 05, 2018 1:58 pm

Redocbew · Mon Nov 05, 2018 2:01 pm

DancinJack wrote:
<dongle-blob>

Yeah, pretty much. The docking station was the only thing I could think of where it might kinda, sort, almost make sense. I still don't really get it though, because you could just get a laptop if you needed the device to ackshually be portable without imposing limitations on its use when you're away from the dock.

DancinJack · Mon Nov 05, 2018 2:03 pm

Redocbew wrote:
DancinJack wrote:
<dongle-blob>

Yeah, pretty much. The docking station was the only thing I could think of where it might kinda, sort, almost make sense. I still don't really get it though, because you could just get a laptop if you needed the device to ackshually be portable without imposing limitations on its use when you're away from the dock.

Hey man, those two extra pounds (and other ports, better screen, better keyboard, better processor/RAM, better SSD, better speakers) aren't worth it in most cases!

blargh4 · Mon Nov 05, 2018 2:05 pm

Am I missing some kind of context for all the deliberate obtuseness in this thread?

The point about the OS holding back the hardware seems pretty clear. The ipad pro is a very nice piece of hardware. It'd be great if I could replace my laptop with it and, say, plug it into a dock to turn it into a proper computer I can do real work on. In theory, there's no real reason you couldn't. But given the limitations of iOS, I can't, so for my use cases it remains a luxury e-reader.

Redocbew · Mon Nov 05, 2018 2:12 pm

Let's assume for now that there is no iOS, and every device Apple makes runs exactly the same operating system. Tablets would still be tablets, and laptops would still be laptops. That's not going to change the dongle-blob required to make a tablet docking station like that work, or change the fact that you only have a touchscreen for input when you're away from the dock. I suppose we should give The Verge the benefit of the doubt and say that they're not deliberately missing the point in an attempt to be hip and trendy, but they're still missing the point.

End User · Mon Nov 05, 2018 2:13 pm

Up until now I have firmly believed that iPads and iPhones are well served by Wi-Fi to get content both on and off the device. In the Verge video review a member of their team compared 4K encoding on the new iPad Pro to that of his iMac (no specs given). He said the performance was similar. If 4K editing/encoding is possible with the new iPad Pro then transferring that 4K content off of the iPad Pro via 10Gbps USB 3.1 Gen 2 would be very useful.

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