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DancinJack
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Re: Modern Macbooks...really worth it?

Thu Nov 15, 2018 12:30 pm

DPete27 wrote:
I only linked a Windows laptop because there's no equivalently spec'd Apple alternative for anywhere near that cost. The point is, a laptop with those specs can be made for that price, regardless of which OS is installed on it. It's not my fault that Apple chooses to ignore the market segment I'm in and instead focus on the high priced niche.

Hey dude, like I said, it's totally fine. I just don't think we need to call it something else. Apple laptops aren't worth it for you and that's totally fine and even likely the rule for most people.
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Re: Modern Macbooks...really worth it?

Thu Nov 15, 2018 12:36 pm

DancinJack wrote:
Hey dude, like I said, it's totally fine. I just don't think we need to call it something else. Apple laptops aren't worth it for you and that's totally fine and even likely the rule for most people.

I would never pay for one myself. Only reason I'm using a MBP is they're the "standard issue" developer system where I work. The screen and battery life are impressive; I'll give them that.
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Re: Modern Macbooks...really worth it?

Thu Nov 15, 2018 12:45 pm

I am still of the opinion that MacBooks are still the best notebook hardware made. And I am a fan of macOS far more than WIndows.

That said, the premium price Apple charges for additional memory and storage is somewhat sobering. So the answer to "is it worth it" is really an individual choice. Is it worth it to you?
 
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Re: Modern Macbooks...really worth it?

Thu Nov 15, 2018 1:11 pm

Buub wrote:
I am still of the opinion that MacBooks are still the best notebook hardware made. And I am a fan of macOS far more than WIndows.

That said, the premium price Apple charges for additional memory and storage is somewhat sobering. So the answer to "is it worth it" is really an individual choice. Is it worth it to you?


You should check out some teardowns of MBs and MBPs, there are some really questionable build and structural design decisions in macs that put them far behind business laptops from lenovo and dell, such as using glue instead of screws, using glue in metal to metal and metal to plastic interfaces, using plastic to metal interfaces at high stress joints, etc. They may "feel" solid, but they are not built well, and I say this from a 10 year background in aircraft structural engineering. A Thinkpad with a magnesium rollcage and carbon fiber lids/chassis is much better built than the MBP.

As for the hardware, you can get windows laptops with 4K screens with wide DCI-P3 gamut, 120 Hz screens for gaming, touchscreens and pen-input for artists etc., whereas the highest res screen on the 15" MBP is 2880x1800. If you're a content creator, MBPs are falling behind the curve for 4K video and asset creation.

There was a time when the answer to 'what is the best laptop to get' was unequivocally 'get a mac', but that was 10 years ago. The aluminum faux-unibody MBs and MBPs were a shot in the arm to shoddy windows OEMs to get their act together. These days, it feels like it's Apple that needs a shot in the arm, but sadly they care more about their iPad and iPhone line than their macbook line.
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Re: Modern Macbooks...really worth it?

Thu Nov 15, 2018 1:39 pm

Voldenuit wrote:
OSX

macOS

Voldenuit wrote:
* New butterfly keyboard. You should really test one before you buy a current macbook as your main computing device

I can’t stress that enough. It is the first thing one should do.

I’m keyboard agnostic so I had no issues with the butterfly style keyboard.

Voldenuit wrote:
* New T2 DRM lockout of third party repairers. This means that only Apple-approved repairers, and more importantly, only Apple-approved repairs will be available to you moving forwards.

One should always take their Apple product to an Apple Authorized Service Provider for repair. That has always been the case. If there are none where you live then factor that into your decision before you buy.

Voldenuit wrote:
* Lack of ports. TB3 hubs exist, but dongle life has been part of Apple's world view for a while now. I doubt they will change that.

When I had my 12” MacBook Pro I was perfectly happy with one port. All my data is either on my local NAS or in the cloud (both accessible via Wi-Fi). When the 12" MacBook was used at my desk it was connected to a display via USB Type-C for display/power/hub. That one port handled it all.

Dongles were, for the most part, a stopgap solution until Type-C to whatever cables appeared. I recently purchased a USB Type-C to micro b 3.1 Gen 2 cable and a USB Type-C to Displayport cable. I still use a USB Type-C to Ethernet (for network config and troubleshooting) which I keep on the ethernet cable when not in use, and my Type C to Type A dongle for my USB boot/troubleshooting stick.

My 2018 13” MacBook Pro has 4 Thunderbolt 3 ports. I have yet to use all 4 at the same time.

Voldenuit wrote:
* Cost.

If you want macOS and the industries best trackpad then Apple is the only game in town.

Voldenuit wrote:
* Longevity. It's going to be harder to maintain the current MB and MBP for a decade, especially if Apple extends its DRM scheme to battery replacement. If you can find OEM or third party battery packs. Modern macbooks will also refuse to boot if the internal battery is dead, even if connected to A/C, so at some point, that macbook will become a paperweight.

At work we have a 7 year old MacBook Air that recently had its battery replaced at an Apple Store - it is like new. We have three 2010 27” iMacs on the floor as well that are still in daily use. I’m typing this on a 4 year old MBP. I have a 2012 Mac mini at home that is still kicking butt. My 2012 11” MacBook Air is still going strong in the hands of its current owner. I’m not worried about longevity when it comes to my personal 2018 Mac mini and 2018 13” MacBook Pro (well, apart from the Mac moving to ARM (Hi Glorious :) )).

Voldenuit wrote:
* Lack of upgradability. SSD, RAM, CPU, GPU, T2 are all soldered in.

- Spec it out well during purchase
- get AppleCare
- live near a Apple Authorized Service Provider

Voldenuit wrote:
* Performance.

Even the new MacBook Air is a massive leap over the 2.26Ghz Core 2 Duo based Mac that ClickClick5 is currently using.

Voldenuit wrote:
* Flexibility. You're at the mercy of Apple recognizing security certificates for 3rd party OSes. Right now, only Windows and OSX have valid certificates that Apple recognizes for Secure Boot, so if you're wanting to install Linux, there are a lot of hoops to jump through even after disabling SecureBoot (I believe you will have to carve out an unencrypted partition on the (non-expandable) SSD).

I don’t recommend buying a Mac to boot Windows and/or Linux. You can run Linux/Windows in a VM on a x64 based Mac or have a separate dedicated VM server on the network.

Voldenuit wrote:
* Portability. OSX used to be a great platform for cross-platform development, but with Apple deprecating OpenGL and OpenCL in favor of its proprietary Metal API, there are going to be limits on how much of what you code will fit into a "write once, export multiple times" philosophy.

I though Vulcan heralded the end for OpenGL on every platform?

MoltenVK is a runtime for macOS and iOS that offers an almost complete subset of the Vulkan API implemented using Metal.

https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2018/02 ... -to-apple/

https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page= ... ed-MVK-App

ClickClick5 wrote:
I use USB a lot and will often find myself needing to use the DVD drive

Why do you have valuable data stuck on a legacy solution? Time to sort that out.

ClickClick5 wrote:
or the ethernet port for troublesome routers.

Buy the Type-C to ethernet dongle. Leave it connected to a network cable that you store with your network setup. End of Line.

ClickClick5 wrote:
I know many of the new users to Apple might not remember when the Macbook Pro was just that, a pro model. Many ports, upgradeable parts, ect.

I recall using one of these back in the day.

Pro means different things to different people (legacy ports are not Pro to me). Need is a good word. If legacy ports and upgradeable parts are your priority over the OS then it sounds as if you need something like my T480.

ClickClick5 wrote:
Now looking at the new machines, I see just thunderbolt port(s)

Frack ya! Thunderbolt 3 is the perfect port. Dedicated cables exist to connect Thunderbolt 3 to almost everything.

ClickClick5 wrote:
Will the soldered ssd even last 10 years? This has all kinda made me wonder if this is going to be my last Apple laptop.

You want a laptop to last 10 years? Good grief. Take this as a sign -> the 7 year old MacBook Air sitting on my desk is not supported by macOS Mojave.

On top of that Apple may switch the Mac over to ARM in the not too distant future (Hi Glorious :) ). Such a move would turn any Mac you buy today into a paperweight much faster than you anticipated.
 
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Re: Modern Macbooks...really worth it?

Thu Nov 15, 2018 2:08 pm

End User wrote:
On top of that Apple may switch the Mac over to ARM in the not too distant future (Hi Glorious :) ). Such a move would turn any Mac you buy today into a paperweight much faster than you anticipated.

Are you advocating people wait? This is a textbook definition of the Osborne effect. :lol:
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Re: Modern Macbooks...really worth it?

Thu Nov 15, 2018 2:11 pm

derFunkenstein wrote:
End User wrote:
On top of that Apple may switch the Mac over to ARM in the not too distant future (Hi Glorious :) ). Such a move would turn any Mac you buy today into a paperweight much faster than you anticipated.

Are you advocating people wait? This is a textbook definition of the Osborne effect. :lol:

How, pray tell, would new Macs switching to ARM turn current Macs into paperweights? That's just silly.
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Re: Modern Macbooks...really worth it?

Thu Nov 15, 2018 2:11 pm

I have a MacBook6,1 (Late 2009) for home use and I love it. The keyboard is wonderful. It weighs a ton though.

I have a current-gen MacBook10,1 (Mid 2017) for work use, and it's meh. Pluses are the weight, the weight, adequate RAM, much faster storage, bit nicer screen. Minuses are the keyboard, the lack of ports, the need for a USB hub and Ethernet dongle which is the Apple USB one so line speed is 1/10th of what the old one can do. If it were a personal machine, maybe it would be useable for WoW and that would be a big plus (Blizzard made BfA Metal-only :( so it no longer runs on my Mac).
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Re: Modern Macbooks...really worth it?

Thu Nov 15, 2018 2:19 pm

OK duders. I don't mean to be pedantic, but can you please not say Macbook when you mean Macbook Pro (or Macbook Air for that matter)? They are two very distinct things. Of course there is usually context to discern which you're talking about, but not always and at times even then the two share some functions/ports/specs that can make things confusing.
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Re: Modern Macbooks...really worth it?

Thu Nov 15, 2018 2:27 pm

JBI wrote:
How, pray tell, would new Macs switching to ARM turn current Macs into paperweights? That's just silly.


A company with limited resources, such as Apple, simply could not afford to maintain two different architectures for their OS. Especially once you consider that in order to do this switch in the first place that they must has already been doing this with zero economic return for YEARS now.

They must be financially exhausted. They couldn't even do security patch maintenance. Safer to just do one last "patch" that bricks them.
 
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Re: Modern Macbooks...really worth it?

Thu Nov 15, 2018 2:44 pm

Topinio wrote:
Ethernet dongle which is the Apple USB one so line speed is 1/10th of what the old one can do

Uhh... what? USB can keep up with Gb Ethernet these days. Are you using an antique USB 2.0 adapter or something?

Glorious wrote:
JBI wrote:
How, pray tell, would new Macs switching to ARM turn current Macs into paperweights? That's just silly.

A company with limited resources, such as Apple, simply could not afford to maintain two different architectures for their OS. Especially once you consider that in order to do this switch in the first place that they must has already been doing this with zero economic return for YEARS now.

They must be financially exhausted. They couldn't even do security patch maintenance. Safer to just do one last "patch" that bricks them.

LOLOL

You win the thread.
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Re: Modern Macbooks...really worth it?

Thu Nov 15, 2018 2:50 pm

derFunkenstein wrote:
End User wrote:
On top of that Apple may switch the Mac over to ARM in the not too distant future (Hi Glorious :) ). Such a move would turn any Mac you buy today into a paperweight much faster than you anticipated.

Are you advocating people wait? This is a textbook definition of the Osborne effect. :lol:

Not at all. I'm not Apple.
 
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Re: Modern Macbooks...really worth it?

Thu Nov 15, 2018 3:04 pm

I think this thread has derailed from it's original intent into (MBP vs MB / OS X vs macOS being prime examples of derailment). Bottom line is, if it's really worthy for you to use an MBP (power, features, etc.) then get it - personally would go for a 2017 one. Otherwise, consider buying the lesser featured ones (regular MB, MB Air) - once again, I would avoid the T2 chip like the plague if possible.
 
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Re: Modern Macbooks...really worth it?

Thu Nov 15, 2018 3:10 pm

just brew it! wrote:
derFunkenstein wrote:
End User wrote:
On top of that Apple may switch the Mac over to ARM in the not too distant future (Hi Glorious :) ). Such a move would turn any Mac you buy today into a paperweight much faster than you anticipated.

Are you advocating people wait? This is a textbook definition of the Osborne effect. :lol:

How, pray tell, would new Macs switching to ARM turn current Macs into paperweights? That's just silly.

Holy smokes! Not immediately. It will hasten the end as a supported device which, for many, is an EoL event. Using the past as a guide that would be roughly 3 years from any future switch date.

If I can get 4 years out of my 2018 Mac mini and MacBook Pro I'll be happy a happy camper.
 
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Re: Modern Macbooks...really worth it?

Thu Nov 15, 2018 3:20 pm

Don't forget that if you're covered by something already available, you can save money going refurb: https://www.apple.com/us-hed/shop/refur ... acbook-pro
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Re: Modern Macbooks...really worth it?

Thu Nov 15, 2018 3:28 pm

qmacpoint wrote:
I would avoid the T2 chip like the plague if possible.

As an end user I believe the T2 is a very positive addition to any Mac:

- Touch ID
- Storage controller that handles on the fly encryption with no impact on performance
- Secure Boot (modifiable)
- External Boot policy independent of Secure Boot
- Image signal processor
- Audio controller
- Disables mic when lid is closed


https://www.apple.com/au/mac/docs/Apple ... erview.pdf
 
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Re: Modern Macbooks...really worth it?

Thu Nov 15, 2018 3:38 pm

At my old work we had a contract with Lenovo. If I remember right, the standard issue was the T430 (unless you were super special and got the Yoga or a nicer laptop). I ran Ubuntu 12.04 as the main host OS, with the company's Windows 7 image running as a VM. Personal work was on Ubuntu, work in Windows 7. I keep thinking back to that laptop over time. It was sturdy, parts were screwed in, and the battery life was leaps and bounds over the HP ones we had. And weirdly enough, it might be from the 90s, but I still like the mouse nub vs the track pad. Looking at Lenovo's site now, I see I can spec out a T480 and get a lot more power than with an MB Air priced even more.

Yeah the jury is still out on this, but still leaning twards no on the Apple side now. macOS, OSX as it was, use to be more solid than Windows back in the 10.4-7 range. I remember bragging how with all the video editing, the PowerMac G5 never once hung up or crashed with 10.4. But with XP, I could get some hangups or crash to desktops on occasion. I had 10.10 lock up a few times, but....but....10.13 has not been bad to me yet. Then again, Windows 10 has not been bad to me either so far. For me personally, I had better stability with launch day Vista x64 than I did with 98SE. But anyway...

Yeah, it is interesting to see how everyone thinks about the new systems. If Apple did do a full ARM switch, I suspect it would be another "Universal Binary" phase again. Then eventually, no more x86 support. Though I feel like Apple would make this window larger than they did with the killing of PPC, so there would be a nice transition period.
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Re: Modern Macbooks...really worth it?

Thu Nov 15, 2018 4:16 pm

End User wrote:
Holy smokes! Not immediately. It will hasten the end as a supported device which, for many, is an EoL event. Using the past as a guide that would be roughly 3 years from any future switch date.

The glued-in keyboard and/or battery will be dead by then anyway, so I guess it doesn't really matter... :wink:
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Re: Modern Macbooks...really worth it?

Thu Nov 15, 2018 4:20 pm

just brew it! wrote:
End User wrote:
Holy smokes! Not immediately. It will hasten the end as a supported device which, for many, is an EoL event. Using the past as a guide that would be roughly 3 years from any future switch date.

The glued-in keyboard and/or battery will be dead by then anyway, so I guess it doesn't really matter... :wink:


Hold up a moment. So you're saying the battery can not be replaced without tripping off the T2 chip? If this is true, WTF Apple. This is like what the diesel manufactures are doing now days and programming the injectors into the ECU. So if an injector fails, you can't just replace it. The new injectors serial number has to be programmed in for the ECU to even consider firing it.
This is all getting awfully silly.
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Re: Modern Macbooks...really worth it?

Thu Nov 15, 2018 4:32 pm

ClickClick5 wrote:
just brew it! wrote:
End User wrote:
Holy smokes! Not immediately. It will hasten the end as a supported device which, for many, is an EoL event. Using the past as a guide that would be roughly 3 years from any future switch date.

The glued-in keyboard and/or battery will be dead by then anyway, so I guess it doesn't really matter... :wink:

Hold up a moment. So you're saying the battery can not be replaced without tripping off the T2 chip? If this is true, WTF Apple.

Hold on a minute, I didn't say that. But the cost of replacement is likely to be enough that most people will just opt to buy a new device...
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Re: Modern Macbooks...really worth it?

Thu Nov 15, 2018 4:38 pm

ClickClick5 wrote:
Hold up a moment. So you're saying the battery can not be replaced without tripping off the T2 chip? If this is true, WTF Apple. This is like what the diesel manufactures are doing now days and programming the injectors into the ECU. So if an injector fails, you can't just replace it. The new injectors serial number has to be programmed in for the ECU to even consider firing it.
This is all getting awfully silly.

No one said that? And if they did, I'm not quite sure how they know unless they personally did a battery replacement and then their Mac didn't work.
Apple confirmed to The Verge that this is the case for repairs involving certain components on newer Macs, like the logic board and Touch ID sensor, which is the first time the company has publicly acknowledged the tool’s use. But Apple could not provide a list of repairs that required this or what devices were affected. It also couldn’t say whether it began this protocol with the iMac Pro’s introduction last year or if it’s a new policy instituted recently.


https://www.theverge.com/2018/11/12/180 ... ement-tool

It's definitely not good for people that want to tear apart their machine when something may go wrong, but I'd hope we avoid spreading misinformation about it. And btw, this is exactly a thing Apple would do. I don't know why so many are surprised?
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Re: Modern Macbooks...really worth it?

Thu Nov 15, 2018 4:49 pm

I bought AppleCare+ with my MBP. So for the first three years I have it (late January 2021 it'll expire) I wouldn't dream of having it serviced by anybody other than Apple anyway. I bought it more for the reduced price of screen repairs. $100 for that nice panel, if needed, and they'll do that twice. Of course the warranty itself ran me like $375. Hope I need it. :lol:
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Re: Modern Macbooks...really worth it?

Thu Nov 15, 2018 4:53 pm

End User wrote:
Voldenuit wrote:
* New T2 DRM lockout of third party repairers. This means that only Apple-approved repairers, and more importantly, only Apple-approved repairs will be available to you moving forwards.

One should always take their Apple product to an Apple Authorized Service Provider for repair. That has always been the case. If there are none where you live then factor that into your decision before you buy.


If you visit the tech support forums and follow mac repair channels, there are many cases of people who were quoted 'logic board replacement' for simple repairs by Apple which can cost a thousand or so outside warranty, and which are then subsequently fixed by the repairers for a fraction of the cost (sometimes it's as simple as a bent pin, or resoldering a component, or replacing a controller chip on the motherboard).

The thing Apple is doing with their T2 lockout is putting third party repairers out of business, so you won't have that option in the near future.

EDIT: Also, sometimes not even having the warranty is a guarantee for service. When apple initially offered warranty repairs to macbook users with failing nvidia GPUs, they only approved the repair if the machine booted and they ran a diagnostic on it proving it was the GPU at fault. If a machine did not boot, which happened with many completely dead GPUs, apple refused to honor the warranty, until there was sufficient public outcry to overturn their policy.
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Re: Modern Macbooks...really worth it?

Thu Nov 15, 2018 5:55 pm

just brew it! wrote:
Uhh... what? USB can keep up with Gb Ethernet these days. Are you using an antique USB 2.0 adapter or something?
That's what there is, still. Apple's only Ethernet option for the MacBook10,1 is the USB 2.0 to 10/100 Apple USB Ethernet Adapter connected through e.g. the USB-C to USB Adapter or USB-C Digital AV Multiport Adapter.

Non-Apple options are a PITA to deal with.
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Re: Modern Macbooks...really worth it?

Thu Nov 15, 2018 6:02 pm

End User wrote:
qmacpoint wrote:
I would avoid the T2 chip like the plague if possible.

As an end user I believe the T2 is a very positive addition to any Mac:

As a power user, the limitation regarding Linux is a deal-breaker to me. I won't deny the benefits, but my use case is different than yours.
 
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Re: Modern Macbooks...really worth it?

Thu Nov 15, 2018 6:46 pm

just brew it! wrote:
ClickClick5 wrote:
just brew it! wrote:
The glued-in keyboard and/or battery will be dead by then anyway, so I guess it doesn't really matter... :wink:

Hold up a moment. So you're saying the battery can not be replaced without tripping off the T2 chip? If this is true, WTF Apple.

Hold on a minute, I didn't say that. But the cost of replacement is likely to be enough that most people will just opt to buy a new device...


Ok I misunderstood, sorry there! I've repasted the cpu and gpu on the laptop twice now to help keep temps down. And use FanControl to keep the idle temp from sitting at 70c. Ram is maxed at 4gb, and the ssd is a few months old. So the last thing to swap out is the battery (it lasts about 40min now just web surfing).

I also had a mac mini from 2007. It one day just died on me. I pushed the power button and it chimed, then turned off, and that was it. I only had it about 8 months at this time. I took it to the apple store where I bought it and they said it would have to be sent off to repair. Apple wanted to charge me $300 for "tampering" with the device, which I never did, but I paid it anyway. I got it back about two weeks later. Then after some time again, it failed to turn on. Now being out of warrenty, I just sold it cheap for whatever parts. So i'm not that impressed with their repair service. Things might be different now though?

The macbook however has never been in for repairs other than me replacing parts.
i7-5930k (4.1GHz), 32GB DDR4-2400, 980 4GB, GA-X99-UD3, Samsung 850 Pro 256GB (os/programs), Toshiba 5TB (games), WD VelociRaptor 500GB (games/scratch disk), Win 10 Pro x64
Check out my site for trance sets and other goodies! clickclick5.com!
 
just brew it!
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Re: Modern Macbooks...really worth it?

Thu Nov 15, 2018 7:19 pm

Topinio wrote:
just brew it! wrote:
Uhh... what? USB can keep up with Gb Ethernet these days. Are you using an antique USB 2.0 adapter or something?

That's what there is, still.
...
Non-Apple options are a PITA to deal with.

News to me. I've used several different random USB 3.0 gigabit NICs (purchased on Amazon) with my work MBP over the past ~3 years, and all of them have been fine.

This one: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00PC0H9IE/
and this one: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B014ZOJX7W/
and another one from Aukey that doesn't seem to be listed any more.

All were basically "plug and play". One of 'em (I forget which, probably the first one) did have an intermittent issue in Yosemite, but that was fixed in El Capitan. Been fine ever since.
Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
 
tecgeek
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Re: Modern Macbooks...really worth it?

Thu Nov 15, 2018 8:00 pm

emmm, i don't think so.
 
Ryhadar
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Re: Modern Macbooks...really worth it?

Thu Nov 15, 2018 8:27 pm

I wouldn't go near the current Macbook. If only for the simple reason that the current ("New") Macbook Air is cheaper, has more ports, has a larger battery, larger screen resolution, and might just be faster. The Macbook Air is also technically larger than the Macbook, though, if that matters to you.

https://www.apple.com/mac/compare/resul ... -retina-13

So weird. :roll:

By the way, I own a late 2015 rMBP. Wouldn't trade it in for a new model for reasons cited (lack of ports, lack of upgradability, good enough speed). Oddly I think I like the keyboard better on the newer models. The spacing between the keys on my macbook pro are a little to big for my liking and the new keyboards address that a bit.
 
sweatshopking
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Re: Modern Macbooks...really worth it?

Thu Nov 15, 2018 11:55 pm

This thread is nuts. Please move to r and p

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