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Hi guys,

Looking to replace my 1Gb sansa clip and have been looking at the $150 ipod 4gen. Anyone own one, opinions? Also, is it necessary to use iTunes to transfer music or anything? I want to open it up like a folder on my computer and drag my music files in it to manage how I see fit. If i have to use iTunes I'll look elsewhere.

from cnet:

The iTunes factor: Before you run off to buy a Nano for everyone on your holiday wish list, consider this caveat: whoever uses the Nano (or any iPod) will be required to install and use iTunes. No other piece of software has equaled iTunes in both praise and scorn from CNET's users. Some argue that iTunes is a top-notch media library tool and online music store, while others become infuriated by the software's insatiable demand for system resources and frequent updates.

Whatever side of the iTunes debate you take, know that iTunes 8 is a mandatory install for the fourth-generation iPod Nano. If you haven't used iTunes before or haven't upgraded the software in a while, we strongly recommend giving the new software a spin before committing to a new iPod.

Is it worth upgrading? If you passed on last year's iPod Nano and are still holding on to a first- or second-generation Nano (or possibly an iPod Mini), there's no better time to bite the bullet and get an upgrade. Given its competitive price, attractive range of colors, and improved user interface, Apple's fourth-generation of the iPod Nano is its best yet.

If you own one of last year's iPod Nanos, however, there's little reason to make the jump to the fourth generation. The iPod Nano 4G's Genius playlists, shake-to-shuffle, and improved voice recording compatibility are fun features to have, but they're not worth $150-$200.

That said, if you've filled up your 4GB third-generation Nano and want some extra room or if you need the additional accessibility features such as enlarged screen font and text-to-speech, the fourth-generation

The strongest draw of Sansa's mp3 player product is their "hands-off" approach to how your music is managed.

Personally, after I got a Macbook I got an iPod because I knew iTunes was going to be so integrated into my OS that I didn't want to fight it. Not a terrible loss, but you just have to adapt to the change and let iTunes "do its thing."

Being honest here: If you prefer manually managing your music then stay away from Apple products. May I instead reccomend iRiver's Clix series? I had a 1st gen for a while and it was hands-down the sexiest, functional 3rd party flash-based player I've ever owned. It uses a DTP-based file system, which isn't quite USB Mass Storage but doesn't lock you out entirely, either.

Last I heard, the 2nd gens were out... maybe there's a 3rd gen. Look into em.

Great, scratch that off my purchase list tonight. I really liked the chromatic colors too. I like the ipods but I don't want iTunes on my system at all, F that noise. It's ridiculous that I need to use their software to use the device. By locking it down like that, I will never own one, and I really have no interest in an older gen. Time to research some others.

Appreciate the information. I'll check into the iRiver's... but isn't that creative's product?

If you're up for it, there are plug-ins/hacks that let you manage your iPod from things like WinAmp.
I've never much looked into it, though, since I'm one of those who like iTunes.

You can use other software to manage the content on your iPod. Don't let this turn you off.

No, if Apple goes out of the way to disable a simple drag and drop interface from the HDD in my computer to the HDD in the device, I'm not going to bother with hacks. I'll spend my dollar elsewhere.

They don't "go out of their way to disable" drag-and-drop. The music management software is augmented beyond what drag-and-drop can provide - and it's all stored in a database that gets created by iTunes or other plug-in software like SNM managed that contains things like normalized volumne controls, play count, your star-rating from iTunes, your playlist, etc. If a file doesn't have an entry in the database, it's ignored by the player.

Take a moment to educate yourself rather than assume Apple is automatically "at fault". There's plenty out there to rightfully blame them for (such as blocking OS X installs on certain PPC hardware and the arbitrary lines they drew as development went on, or more recently their use of TN panels in iMacs and for some folks dropping Firewire from the new MacBook)

pete_roth wrote:

No, if Apple goes out of the way to disable a simple drag and drop interface from the HDD in my computer to the HDD in the device, I'm not going to bother with hacks. I'll spend my dollar elsewhere.

I prefer using iTunes to manage music over manually dragging and dropping. It may seem a bit of work at first but it is worth it.

derFunkenstein wrote:

They don't "go out of their way to disable" drag-and-drop. The music management software is augmented beyond what drag-and-drop can provide - and it's all stored in a database that gets created by iTunes or other plug-in software like SNM managed that contains things like normalized volumne controls, play count, your star-rating from iTunes, your playlist, etc. If a file doesn't have an entry in the database, it's ignored by the player.

Yeah, these advantages (particularly total Play Count and Ratings) are a good argument for locked-down auto management. Yes, you lose some freedom--like having your portable music player do "double-duty" as a USB flash drive. So, I can see it both ways.

Note: There *is* a toggle in iTunes to allow USB Device access to your iPod... but I've never enabled it to see what happens. From what I can tell, iTunes manages your music in a way that's optimal to performance but not intuitive in structure.

Really? Because I'm pretty sure I didn't NEED to use iTunes before. Now it's forced on me. No thanks, I'll spend my money however the hell I want, and it won't be based on rabid mac fanboyism. Just face facts that it's not a good thing that I *have* to use their software. This is not a feature I want, end of story.

pete_roth wrote:

No thanks, I'll spend my money however the hell I want, and it won't be based on rabid mac fanboyism.

Will it be based on rabid anti-mac fanboyism?

Seriously though, Apple is not the only company to do this. Pretty much every DAP has to use a database of some kind and it's either generated by the player itself or the associated software. Either method has its pros and cons.

pete_roth wrote:

Really? Because I'm pretty sure I didn't NEED to use iTunes before. Now it's forced on me. No thanks, I'll spend my money however the hell I want, and it won't be based on rabid mac fanboyism. Just face facts that it's not a good thing that I *have* to use their software. This is not a feature I want, end of story.

Unless you use a Mac, you do NOT need iTunes . Instead, get XPlay if you use Windows. They actually have a Mac version if you want to get an iPod and avoid iTunes . http://www.mediafour.com/products/xplay/

pete_roth wrote:

Really? Because I'm pretty sure I didn't NEED to use iTunes before. Now it's forced on me. No thanks, I'll spend my money however the hell I want, and it won't be based on rabid mac fanboyism. Just face facts that it's not a good thing that I *have* to use their software. This is not a feature I want, end of story.

Wow, let's not get defensive or anything. You're right. On Windows you didn't need iTunes because they bundled a different app for Windows use. Just recognize there's a reason. Go spend your money however; I'd honestly rather have you use something else and be happy than see you come in here and cry a river.

I had a crap day at work and took it out on you derFunk, sorry man, I was acting like an ass.

I actually really want the 8Gb ipod I just really don't want iTunes to organize my music or anything. It just feels dirty to me, I've never liked it. I wish it wasn't such a deal breaker for me. I also wish I hadn't lost my damn sansa clip.

The fact that you can't use an iPod as a regular flash drive is a big disappointment to me. I'm more or less indifferent to iTunes as far as music managing software goes, but it's not a ubiquitous program that will allow me universal access to data on the iPod (and neither are any of the various other methods of access).

Is kewl pete_roth, you're still sexy.

FireGryphon wrote:

The fact that you can't use an iPod as a regular flash drive is a big disappointment to me.

My biggest disappointment is that you don't do research.

http://support.apple.com/kb/HT1478

Summary
You can use your iPod as a drive (hard drive or flash drive depending on your iPod) to store and transfer data files on (also known as disk mode)

edit: I try to be amicable and welcoming of people willing to do a little legwork, and I can even sympathize with people that don't like the Windows version of iTunes (I know I certainly don't). But I DO get annoyed when it's easy to conceive of a Google query like ipod as disk or ipod data mode and click on at least the first two links.

Wow.
So someone feels like me.

I reaallly love how sexy the 4th gen ipod nano is. Kinda like Jessica Alba with a click wheel and an accelerometer.

What gets me though, and its not iTunes, its the price. To think that I have to fork out almost 50% of the price of a PS3, just for the 8gb - makes me mad.

Still, one question though. Since the nano is capable as acting as a drive (i.e. drive mode), I assume it 'encrypts' the files on it (since it needs iTunes for the syncing).

What I would like to know from the forumites here, is (if you are the owner of a 4g ipod, or 3g ipod), Are you satisfied with your mp3 player? in as much as, are you happy of the return you got from expelling $ x....?

The reason I ask, is that I'm looking for both, an mp3 player, and a flash disk - in one package...

Besides, doesn't hurt having a Jessica Alba in your pocket, near your figs, does it?

Well that's good news on the storage option front. I'll admit I haven't used iTunes since it came with my ex's 2nd gen, but then it had problems picking up all her :ahem: downloaded music. I have a ton of ripped stuff from cd's on my HDD, converted to a decent sounding mp3 for use with my old sansa seeing as it was only 1Gb. Is this going to be a problem?

No it shouldn't be a problem iTunes should see all your mp3 files with no problem. I have 30 gigs or so of music I ripped from cd's i own and it manages all those just fine. I know you don't like iTunes pete but my advice would be grab a copy of the newest version of iTunes and take a look at it. iTunes has changed a lot in the last few versions. The huge library of music and tv shows etc. is a big selling point for iTunes IMHO. Personally I say play with somebodies ipod touch or iphone then you will HAVE TO HAVE ONE.

derFunkenstein wrote:

edit: I try to be amicable and welcoming of people willing to do a little legwork, and I can even sympathize with people that don't like the Windows version of iTunes (I know I certainly don't). But I DO get annoyed when it's easy to conceive of a Google query like ipod as disk or ipod data mode and click on at least the first two links.

Let me begin by thanking you for not becoming snarky, despite the fact you thought I was a lazy ****. I do appreciate the civility. (I mean this sincerely, not sarcastically, in case that's not clear). As it turns out, I am aware of the data mode available to iPods, though I haven't used it (since I lost my 1gen iPod nano a few months ago). With that said...

It's still not clear to me from that page that, after that operation, the iPod can be used as a music player and as a storage device without iTunes being installed on the computer. If I had to guess (since the page does not make it clear) I would say that every computer you want to work on has to have iTunes set a certain way to enable data storage usage. Further, it seems that even if you set the iPod to transfer data, you still need iTunes (or some special sync software) if you want to use your iPod as a music player. This just confuses things.

I understand why Apple does this, and agree with their reasoning. I just can't rationalize getting a large flash storage device that I have to jump through hoops to use the way I can nearly every other player.

OK, I see where you're coming from. Know that my wife's 2G Nano 2GB does work as a music player when it's in disk mode. You set aside a portion of the drive for "disk mode" and that's all it allows Finder and Explorer to see, and the rest is reserved for music. (note: it does wipe the drive on her Nano to do this, so you'll have to re-sync with iTunes or whatever other app you use in its place)

derFunkenstein wrote:

OK, I see where you're coming from. Know that my wife's 2G Nano 2GB does work as a music player when it's in disk mode. You set aside a portion of the drive for "disk mode" and that's all it allows Finder and Explorer to see, and the rest is reserved for music. (note: it does wipe the drive on her Nano to do this, so you'll have to re-sync with iTunes or whatever other app you use in its place)

Okay, so you're saying that you can set the iPod to have a portion of its storage space for iTunes-controlled music, and another portion that gets recognized as a regular flash drive in any computer with any OS regardless of whether or not iTunes is installed? That's not too bad, if the storage space of each is dynamic (can I assume this?).

That I'll have to try and get back to you on. I'm not sure, but I'm leaning towards "no"

So whats with the aversion to iTunes?

I love it. Always have always will. I don't have time to organize, meta-tag, sort, categorize mp3s. I did that crap years ago. iTunes I go with it.

MY main device is my iPhone if I should ever need music for something else I burn it to CD and rip from there to ogg or something.
The meta data is all there too. Hell you can burn playlists to CD and then give them to friends to import on their iTunes. That one big loophole that been there for awhile now.

Anyways, there is no one single compelling argument that anyone can make that takes anything away from iTunes. Its good, is it 100%, nope but its better than anything else out there that you probably have to babysit and/or coddle.

I just like to do it myself, it's not just a knock on iTunes, it's a knock on anythign that wants to manage it for me. I like to do it myself, and ideally I could drag and drop into the device's HDD myself.

I've been looking at the $229 touch.http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.a ... 6855101161

The reviews (I know, I know) state it can not be used as a mass storage device though. I don't want an iPhone - I need the devices separate because I used my player all day at work, and don't want to forgo my actual phone when the battery is dead.

OH. MY. FSM. http://iphonetouch.blorge.com/2007/12/2 ... -released/

pete_roth wrote:

The reviews (I know, I know) state it can not be used as a mass storage device though. I don't want an iPhone - I need the devices separate because I used my player all day at work, and don't want to forgo my actual phone when the battery is dead.

Yeah; the Touch is much less friendly to this than the standard iPod line is.
I've got one though, and as a media player and basic PDA it's fantastic.

pete_roth wrote:

OH. MY. FSM. http://iphonetouch.blorge.com/2007/12/2 ... -released/

Emulators for both the NES and GBA are available just so you know.

pete_roth wrote:

I just like to do it myself, it's not just a knock on iTunes, it's a knock on anythign that wants to manage it for me. I like to do it myself, and ideally I could drag and drop into the device's HDD myself.

Are talking about dragging and dropping song files to the player instead of syncing? Or are you talking about dragging and dropping "other" files to move data?

If it the latter then you can "unlock" the Apple device so it can be recognized as a USB mass storage device. You dont ;ose any functionality and all it really does is lets you see the file structure of the device.

There are also third party SW out there that can do this too.