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jmc2
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(&CarbonFiber_5C drop).Silicone pad temp increase vs paste. How much.

Fri Apr 19, 2019 7:08 pm

Arctic 4237 - Silicone Thermal Pad 145 x 145 x 0.5 mm Is what I'm using and
looking at the thermal-grizzly-carbonaut-thermal-pad.
https://www.overclockers.co.uk/thermal- ... 2f-tg.html

"der8auer" mentions that it is 2-3 degrees warmer then the best paste - Kryonaut.
I'm not going to mess with paste on my threadripper if it is going to only get 2-3 degrees cooler.

I can not find any information on the degrees difference with the silicone pad.
It has a "6" rating vs 10-11 for the best paste.
Hate to buy the carbon fiber and find no difference.
Of course everywhere I look it is "unknown" or "Preorder".

The threadripper runs around 66-68 C on air compressing videos. Would love to get it into the low 60s.
That would drop the fan speeds a lot.

thanks.
Last edited by jmc2 on Sun May 19, 2019 11:55 am, edited 2 times in total.
 
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Re: Silicone pad temp increase vs paste. How much.

Fri Apr 19, 2019 9:56 pm

Thermal conductivity is measured in watts per meter kelvin(W/mk), and typically thermal pads have much lower conductivity than thermal goo. Thermal goo also tends to trap less air underneath it. Air is a good insulator, so eliminating air between chip and heatsink is why we use some kind of thermal interface material in the first place.

I'm sure der8auer knows all of that, so the fact that thermal pads don't seem to make a big difference shows only how much wiggle room there when trying to use temperature as a guide.
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Re: Silicone pad temp increase vs paste. How much.

Fri Apr 19, 2019 10:13 pm

I'm not sure at all I understand what you're saying. Do you mean you're currently using a silicone thermal pad between a heatsink and a Threadripper?
 
jmc2
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Re: Silicone pad temp increase vs paste. How much.

Fri Apr 19, 2019 10:28 pm

TwistedKestrel wrote:
I'm not sure at all I understand what you're saying. Do you mean you're currently using a silicone thermal pad between a heatsink and a Threadripper?


Yes...hate paste at the threadripper level. "No dot in the middle" anymore.
The carbon fiber cloth has got to be better then my silicone pad.
Will have to find out the hard by buying it...If they ever release it.

Oh, I believe the carbon fiber pad is rated around 62W/mk (yes 62) but due to it's thickness
paste is better.
I am puzzled exactly how that 62W/mk is measured tho.
My silicone pad is a 6 and top pastes are 10-11
and paste is better by 2-3 degrees C (EDIT) then the carbon fiber cloth.
My Silicone pad...no idea.
Last edited by jmc2 on Sat Apr 20, 2019 5:47 pm, edited 2 times in total.
 
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Re: Silicone pad temp increase vs paste. How much.

Sat Apr 20, 2019 12:08 am

I put standard paste on mine - Arctic Cooling MX-2. Not the best, not the worst, but no paste or pad will make up for an inadequate cooler.
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Re: Silicone pad temp increase vs paste. How much.

Sat Apr 20, 2019 8:12 am

Thermal paste is just filler meant to fill in the microscopic gaps between IHS and base of the heatsink. It is useless if you thoroughly lapped the IHS and base of the IHS. The performance difference between most paste solutions is trivial, however there's a difference with ease of application and longevity (doesn't solidify/dry-up). The premium stuff tends to be much easier to work with and last for years before drying/hardening-up.

Thermal pads are just an easier to apply version of thermal paste meant for OEMs/ISVs in assembly line production.
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Re: Silicone pad temp increase vs paste. How much.

Sat Apr 20, 2019 12:50 pm

jmc2 wrote:
I am puzzled exactly how that 62W/mk is measured tho.
My silicone pad is a 6 and top pastes are 10-11...and paste is better by 2-3 degrees C.


It's not going to be a huge difference either way. Most likely the sensor that's being read is in the CPU, and it doesn't take much energy to raise the temperature of that little chunk of silicon a few degrees. The question of pads vs goo is clear though: goo is better. The only place I've ever seen thermal pads used in any PC within the past 15 years is on VRMs, DRAM, or other supporting chips that require some kind of additional cooling. Nobody uses thermal pads on a CPU.
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Re: Silicone pad temp increase vs paste. How much.

Sat Apr 20, 2019 1:43 pm

Yeah, pads can be harder to clean off when it comes time to repaste them. That was my experience some years ago when I had to redo the pad on an old waterblock. The old one was crusty and hard to remove from the CPU heat spreader and the waterblock. When I later replaced that cooler, I cleaned off the pad from the new cooler and used goo (Arctic Silver 5, think) right from the start.

Pads really need (or at least they used to need) a lot of heat to become deformed and "oozy" enough to be effective. Because of that, I don't understand why pads are so popular for VRMs and chipsets. My old Asus laptop had pads over the VRMs and chipset components, and they never got warm enough to make more than a slight indentation in the pads. I'm sure this prevented any real heat-shunting from occurring in those areas.

Goo is better, and quite frankly, couldn't be easier to apply, either. And besides, you shouldn't be re-applying any TIM all that often, not even if you're an intense gamer.
 
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Re: Silicone pad temp increase vs paste. How much.

Sat Apr 20, 2019 4:01 pm

jmc2 wrote:
I am puzzled exactly how that 62W/mk is measured tho.
My silicone pad is a 6 and top pastes are 10-11...and paste is better by 2-3 degrees C.


Image

Thermal Conductivity is the rating at 1-meter thickness and 1-degree difference. 62W of heat will transfer from the bottom to the top. All else being held constant, the higher conductivity will conduct more heat.

Unfortunately, the game isn't "fair". Thermal Paste has lower conducctivity, but thermal paste is much, much, much thinner.

Image

The well-polished metal of the typical CPU heat spreader + heatsink, the high-pressure from the screws pushing the CPU + Heatsink together, and the liquidish nature of the thermal paste creates the thinnest possible connection between the heat-source and heat-sink. A solid Thermal Pad will naturally be thicker than necessary, and therefore lose performance.

The "best" connection would be no intermediate substance at all. But its basically impossible to have a perfectly smooth surface and a perfect connection between two different objects. Thermal Paste exists to "fill up air gaps", because air has very, very low conductivity.
 
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Re: Silicone pad temp increase vs paste. How much.

Sat Apr 20, 2019 4:16 pm

Meh, just use Vegemite.
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Re: Silicone pad temp increase vs paste. How much.

Sat Apr 20, 2019 4:18 pm

If you're not sure whether to choose a pad or a paste ...

WHY NOT USE BOTH?
 
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Re: Silicone pad temp increase vs paste. How much.

Sat Apr 20, 2019 4:31 pm

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Re: Silicone pad temp increase vs paste. How much.

Sat Apr 20, 2019 4:40 pm

On a more serious note, the thermal conductivity of a pad most certainly depends on how much it's compressed. A large pressure will drive most of the air from the many small pockets that inevitably have remained caught between the pad and both metal surfaces. A small pressure won't do that.
 
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Re: Silicone pad temp increase vs paste. How much.

Sat Apr 20, 2019 4:47 pm

After watching GamersNexus's video on the new carbon thermal pads it really does look like a great solution. It's not for extreme over clockers
but for anyone else it looks like a perfectly acceptable solution. Science Studio over on Youtube ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=um8QL-ts4RE ) did a comparison
and showed that you were only giving a point or two in temps by going with the pads while giving up any worries about aging of thermal paste.

Though I guess in the end it will depend on how much the Carbonaut pads cost versus other thermal pastes. Hmm, looks like around $10 per pad so it's not a bad
price but clearly isn't going to replace thermal paste for budget builds.
 
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Re: Silicone pad temp increase vs paste. How much.

Sat Apr 20, 2019 5:59 pm

Thermal paste was just fine with a threadripper I built last year
May I ask what was the problem with threadripper and thermal paste?
Image
 
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Re: Silicone pad temp increase vs paste. How much.

Sat Apr 20, 2019 6:47 pm

f0d wrote:
Thermal paste was just fine with a threadripper I built last year
May I ask what was the problem with threadripper and thermal paste?


Just bad luck, got everything installed and the motherboard was bad. Had to send it back. After I spent all that time cleaning the old paste off I ordered a silicone pad as a "good enough" non messy solution. The old "dot in the middle" is easy to clean up while cleaning up a threadripper amount of paste is awful.

My 2012 3930 6 core paste (Noctua?) is the original and the temps have risen from 55 to 60-61 C in around 7 years.
Last edited by jmc2 on Sun Apr 21, 2019 1:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Re: Silicone pad temp increase vs paste. How much.

Sat Apr 20, 2019 6:51 pm

I bought an Acer business-oriented Haswell machine years ago and the fan would scream whenever the CPU was working hard. HWinfo indeed showed the CPU was overheating and throttling. Pulled the heatsink to see what the paste looked like but found an old school graphite pad material application, the likes of which I think I haven't seen since 1997. lol. I remember that being used for like Pentium 200. It looked OEM though and not something the eBay guy may have done. Scraped that off and put on some Ceramique. All better.

I guess the carbon pads are better than the old stuff.
 
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Re: Silicone pad temp increase vs paste. How much.

Sat Apr 20, 2019 7:13 pm

nanoflower wrote:
After watching GamersNexus's video on the new carbon thermal pads it really does look like a great solution. It's not for extreme over clockers
but for anyone else it looks like a perfectly acceptable solution. Science Studio over on Youtube ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=um8QL-ts4RE ) did a comparison and showed that you were only giving a point or two in temps by going with the pads while giving up any worries about aging of thermal paste.

Though I guess in the end it will depend on how much the Carbonaut pads cost versus other thermal pastes. Hmm, looks like around $10 per pad so it's not a bad price but clearly isn't going to replace thermal paste for budget builds.


Thanks so much for that link!
That's the first tests I've seen on the carbon cloth and if I'm getting by with a silicone pad (and dual 3000rpm fans) then the carbon cloth pad should be better. I had hoped the test materials links would be a "purchase link" but nope.

I had not thought about the benefits of using it for consistant cpu cooler testing. No more "did it spread evenly" or "too much/too little" problem.

The 51x68mm threadripper pad is 20 pounds($27) or 26 Euros.
With the carbon pad that close to paste I'm getting one as soon as they start selling them. Will let everyone know the good/bad news here.
 
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Re: Silicone pad temp increase vs paste. How much.

Sun Apr 21, 2019 1:50 am

I'm interested in seeing results too. I value reliability over performance (as long as it doesn't cost too much performance), so if a graphite pad can get longer longevity and reduced degradation and reduced odds of mis-application, at only a degree or two higher, then I'd strongly consider using a pad over paste.

Also, I'd be interested in seeing how the Innovation Cooling Graphite Thermal Pad does.

I can't find a good review of the Innovation Cooling Graphite Thermal Pad, but someone tested what he claims to be an equivalent from a different brand, and he got good results: here.
 
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Re: Silicone pad temp increase vs paste. How much.

Wed May 08, 2019 11:07 am

Finally there seems to be more hope in getting the new "Carbonaut" carbon fiber thermal pads...

Mostly in stock, Europe only. :(
https://www.caseking.de/en/brands/thermal-grizzly

Still Preorder, will ship to USA
https://www.overclockers.co.uk/brands/thermal-grizzly

Amazon USA or Amazon De...nothing.

Size CPU/GPU
32 x 32 ---£8.99---Intel Desktop CPUs (115x) e.g 6700K, 7700K, 9900K
38 x 38 -£10.99---Intel 20xx HEDT CPUs and AMD Desktop CPUs.7900X,7980XE,2700X,1800X,6950X
51 x 68--£20.99--AMD Threadripper CPUs e.g. 1950X, 1920X, 2990WX
25 x 25----£8.99--Nvidia GPUs (RTX 2080)
31 x 25----£8.99--Nvidia GPUs (RTX 2080 Ti)

Of course there is the ripoff shipping of £19.10
 
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Re: (&CarbonFiber).Silicone pad temp increase vs paste. How much.

Wed May 08, 2019 11:47 am

Thanks for the link. I really need it. and itt really heplful for me.
 
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Re: (&CarbonFiber).Silicone pad temp increase vs paste. How much.

Sun May 12, 2019 10:16 am

Finally showing up on Amazon. But only the 32x32 (intel?) size so far. Listed for May 19.

https://www.amazon.com/s?k=%22Thermal+G ... nb_sb_noss
 
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Re: (&CarbonFiber).Silicone pad temp increase vs paste. How much.

Sun May 12, 2019 9:42 pm

I can't think a Threadripper would be that hard to clean with a paper towel and a little rubbing alcohol, which is what I use on my CPUs and heatsinks. Especially if the layer of thermal grease you use is small, which it's supposed to be.

I'm using Noctua NT-H1 these days; it's relatively inexpensive, comes in larger syringes (8 grams), and has no curing time. As NT-H2 paste has already come out and supposedly is 1-2C better, they now sell the first variant less expensively, and that version was considered one of the best for years. I just put a plastic sandwich bag over my pointer finger and apply a thin, even layer across the whole heatspreader (starting with an application of the single dot in the center, just spreading it out).
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Re: (&CarbonFiber).Silicone pad temp increase vs paste. How much.

Mon May 13, 2019 9:17 am

LoneWolf15 wrote:
I can't think a Threadripper would be that hard to clean with a paper towel and a little rubbing alcohol, which is what I use on my CPUs and heatsinks. Especially if the layer of thermal grease you use is small, which it's supposed to be.

I'm using Noctua NT-H1 these days; it's relatively inexpensive, comes in larger syringes (8 grams), and has no curing time. As NT-H2 paste has already come out and supposedly is 1-2C better, they now sell the first variant less expensively, and that version was considered one of the best for years. I just put a plastic sandwich bag over my pointer finger and apply a thin, even layer across the whole heatspreader (starting with an application of the single dot in the center, just spreading it out).


Oh, my paste clean up was not a "replacement" (simple) but a clean up (not simple) for returning the motherboard and getting a replacement MB.
I really like the simplicity of a pad. No worry about the "too much, too little or spotty" paste problems.

Since I'm getting by with a "6" rated Artic silicone pad (high 60s degrees) the carbon fiber pad "62" rated has got to be a real improvement.
Just have to get my hands on one to find out.
As it is supposed to be with in 2-3 degrees of top end paste I can't see going to paste unless I am within 2,3 degrees of getting my fan speed to REALLY drop. (<65 degrees) Noctua NH-U14S TR4-SP3 with NF-F12 iPPC-3000 PWM Fan.
Not quiet but kinda do like immediately knowing when it has finished it's job.

I can get my threadripper to 4000 but that is really reaching the limits of "first gen" chips. A 3950 speed is so,so much cooler!
With the lastest f12e Gigabyte bios...REALLY improved ram compatibility and cpu overclocking!

If the new (this year) Ryzen cpus do actually come out with 16 cores for only $600 I may go that way, Gotta be faster and cooler!
(New toys, YUMMY!)

thanks,
jmc
 
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Re: (&CarbonFiber).Silicone pad temp increase vs paste. How much.

Tue May 14, 2019 9:15 am

https://www.overclockers.co.uk/thermal- ... 2f-tg.html

Carbonaut carbon fiber pads finally in stock and on the way. Ryzen and Threadripper.
Watch them show up on Amazon USA tomorrow.

The 19 pound shipping must be a air mail express type.
They say it's 4 days UK to Aus as an example.
so if it is here this week I'll feel less abused with the shipping.
 
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Re: (&CarbonFiber).Silicone pad temp increase vs paste. How much.

Tue May 14, 2019 9:35 am

For cooling, I would rank the concerns in this order: heatsink, airflow, thermal material.

Unless you've totally botched your installation, the gains from better interface material are minimal under nominal load. (Everything ends up being important when pushing an overclock though.)

I use Arctic Silver out of habit. It's no longer the best, but a tube lasts forever. If you're going to switch to a better heatsink, sure, spend a few extra bucks on thermal paste. Otherwise, it's not worth the trouble.

I don't know what are typical temps for Threadripper. My rule of thumb is to stay between 2:1 to 3:1 ratio of enclosure airflow to HSF airflow. If you're below that, look at case ventilation.
 
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Re: (&CarbonFiber).Silicone pad temp increase vs paste. How much.

Tue May 14, 2019 9:48 am

I've pasted and repasted my over half dozen TRs dozens of times now moving them around and swapping coolers ("thanks" Enermax for your defective AIOs) and I'm really not sure why the OP is worried about paste so much. Takes a minute or two to apply or clean up, if anything having a huge IHS surface makes it easier.

Factory-style thermal pads are worse than the cheapest cpu paste out there, let alone the good stuff. That said these carbon fiber or whatever pads are not bad, but not great. Also buy once cry once on your heatsinks with Noctua and you get plenty of good paste included.
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Re: (&CarbonFiber).Silicone pad temp increase vs paste. How much.

Tue May 14, 2019 7:21 pm

jmc2 wrote:
LoneWolf15 wrote:
I can't think a Threadripper would be that hard to clean with a paper towel and a little rubbing alcohol, which is what I use on my CPUs and heatsinks. Especially if the layer of thermal grease you use is small, which it's supposed to be.

I'm using Noctua NT-H1 these days; it's relatively inexpensive, comes in larger syringes (8 grams), and has no curing time. As NT-H2 paste has already come out and supposedly is 1-2C better, they now sell the first variant less expensively, and that version was considered one of the best for years. I just put a plastic sandwich bag over my pointer finger and apply a thin, even layer across the whole heatspreader (starting with an application of the single dot in the center, just spreading it out).


Oh, my paste clean up was not a "replacement" (simple) but a clean up (not simple) for returning the motherboard and getting a replacement MB.
I really like the simplicity of a pad. No worry about the "too much, too little or spotty" paste problems.

I can get my threadripper to 4000 but that is really reaching the limits of "first gen" chips. A 3950 speed is so,so much cooler!
With the lastest f12e Gigabyte bios...REALLY improved ram compatibility and cpu overclocking!

If the new (this year) Ryzen cpus do actually come out with 16 cores for only $600 I may go that way, Gotta be faster and cooler!
(New toys, YUMMY!)

thanks,
jmc


How much paste did you use?!?
You shouldn't be getting any on the mainboard. CPU heatspreader only, if any gets on the mainboard, you've used entirely too much.
You either want about two grains of rice worth for a Threadripper, one for anything else. Or alternately if you prefer the credit card or spread method, you want maybe 0.5mm thick. On a Threadripper, I'd probably use the spread method as the heatspreader is so large, with a sandwich bag over your finger. So if you've done it right, cleaning should be the same job whether you're just swapping a CPU or replacing a mainboard. I replaced my mainboard last week and cleaned off the CPU before selling it (still mounted in the board (and there was no grease on the mainboard at all. If it looks like the below, you've done too much.

Image

To me, 3C is a big deal, whether you're overclocking or not. It can mean all the difference between stable and not, especially if you're loading your CPU hard. If applying thermal paste is too hard, you're either OCD (and don't like messy fingers, which you can avoid) or you're using way too much.
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Re: (&CarbonFiber).Silicone pad temp increase vs paste. How much.

Tue May 14, 2019 11:23 pm

jmc2 wrote:
Oh, my paste clean up was not a "replacement" (simple) but a clean up (not simple) for returning the motherboard and getting a replacement MB.
I really like the simplicity of a pad. No worry about the "too much, too little or spotty" paste problems.

I have to ask, how much paste are you putting that it all spills onto the socket/mb that you have a mess on your hands? I fail to see how these patterns (seriously, how hard is it to google a couple of patterns yourself than to bitch about "I can't do a single dot anymore"?) can cause such a mess. You tend to squeeze too much out of tubes?

There is no need to cover the entire IHS, has been since the first IHS came out. I had tried multiple patterns and never failed to clean up later if I had to. If you are spilling paste that much, you are definitely doing it wrong.

It is already hard to get a few degrees lower, let alone 6C (~10%). You may have to suck it up and do some practice yourself to squeeze that last couple of degrees (if you are lucky). Or go water. Your temp goal vs ease of use vs effort required. Pick your poison.
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Re: (&CarbonFiber).Silicone pad temp increase vs paste. How much.

Thu May 16, 2019 10:41 am

LoneWolf15 wrote:
jmc2 wrote:
LoneWolf15 wrote:
How much paste did you use?!?
You shouldn't be getting any on the mainboard. CPU heatspreader only, if any gets on the mainboard, you've used entirely too much.
You either want about two grains of rice worth for a Threadripper, one for anything else.


A threadripper has over 3 times the area of Intel 32x32 cpus.
------------Instructions from Noctua for Threadripper.....(total of 13 dots of paste)---------
Press 9 small drops (3-4mm diameter) of NT-H1 onto the the heatspreader in a square 3x3 pattern:
Step 2: Continue by adding 4 larger drops (5-6mm diameter) of NT-H1 in a square pattern at the center.
-----------------------------------------------
Now it was obvious when I took the cooler off that "my" dots had been a good bit too big.
Heh, your cpu/paste image was not too far off. :)

Not an expert. I've pasted 3 cpus 3930 sandybridge-E, Ryzen 1700, 1950xThreadripper since 2012.

I am intrigued by new tech so the carbon fiber pads got my interest.
Getting by with a "6" rated Artic silicone pad so I would expect to "get by" even better with a carbon fiber pad that is "62". ten times better.

My interest is in an easy "good enough". If I had one of the 2 gen threadrippers with the greatly improved automatic speed/power adjustments I would not overclock at all.
With my first gen threadripper the Gigabyte "Auto" setting are scary... seeing 1.4, 1.5 volts! Amd says over 1.35 volts shortens the cpu life span.
Set at 1.2 right now. Still tweaking for stability.

Those who want to tweak to the best of the best more power to you. I applaud your interests and efforts.

The carbon fiber pads(Ryzen and Threadripper) were shipped yesterday Wednesday and should be here tomorrow Friday. (It's sitting in Orlando Florida today)

The improvement if any will be reported here.

Thanks to all for their thoughts.
jmc2

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