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chuckula
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If you are getting Kaby Lake, go ahead & Delid it

Thu Dec 15, 2016 3:37 pm

While interest in Kaby Lake may not be RyZen to new levels given AMD's publicity this week, apparently Kaby Lake chips are floating around enough for the first wave of enthusiasts to try delidding them. 

TL;DR version: It didn't overclock very well at first. Then with the delid & improve TIM the chip is stable at 5 GHz under Prime 95 and 1.344V.
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UberGerbil
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Re: If you are getting Kaby Lake, go ahead & Delid it

Thu Dec 15, 2016 4:19 pm

Assuming (1) that's a representative sample and (2) people are comfortable with everything that goes into package surgery and liquid cooling. The (2) folks know who they are, but (1) is still unknown.
 
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Re: If you are getting Kaby Lake, go ahead & Delid it

Thu Dec 15, 2016 4:24 pm

Refuse to even read because of the word benchies.
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Re: If you are getting Kaby Lake, go ahead & Delid it

Thu Dec 15, 2016 4:27 pm

I feel like a K-series processor should already come with a better TIM for overclocking.  I wonder what kind of power that used, though.  5GHz, wowzers!

Maybe RyZen will be better.
 
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Re: If you are getting Kaby Lake, go ahead & Delid it

Thu Dec 15, 2016 5:06 pm

This is non-exciting, nap-inducing overclocking fun. My i5-6600K already does 4.6 pretty easily and temperatures are fine. I might get what, another 7% out of it for my trouble and $30 RockIt 88?

(actually, $30 ain't bad thought: do those things have to be re-lidded prior to use, or can you just clamp on an AIO cooler and be done with it? Cos honestly, that sounds fun).
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Re: If you are getting Kaby Lake, go ahead & Delid it

Thu Dec 15, 2016 5:10 pm

You can use it without a lid, but you better be totally one hundred percent fine with busting your CPU because it will more than likely happen if you're not careful. I personally wouldn't use an AIO cooler in that case because you can't tell how much pressure you're putting on the die. Then again, I'm a wuss, so take that for what you will.
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chuckula
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Re: If you are getting Kaby Lake, go ahead & Delid it

Thu Dec 15, 2016 5:10 pm

derFunkenstein wrote:
This is non-exciting, nap-inducing overclocking fun. My i5-6600K already does 4.6 pretty easily and temperatures are fine. I might get what, another 7% out of it for my trouble and $30 RockIt 88?

(actually, $30 ain't bad thought: do those things have to be re-lidded prior to use, or can you just clamp on an AIO cooler and be done with it? Cos honestly, that sounds fun).

Man, that thing makes delidding easy.  I hate it.
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derFunkenstein
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Re: If you are getting Kaby Lake, go ahead & Delid it

Thu Dec 15, 2016 5:13 pm

Yeah I'm totally not fine with breaking my $250 CPU, so I'm not going to do it. I have a Core i3-4130 and a Celeron G1820 sitting around, though.
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Re: If you are getting Kaby Lake, go ahead & Delid it

Thu Dec 15, 2016 6:51 pm

I delidded the wife's 4770K just for the fun of it. It's nowhere near as nerve-wracking as people make it out to be. Even back in the day I used to do the same with Opteron/Athlon64 chips, not much has changed.
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Re: If you are getting Kaby Lake, go ahead & Delid it

Thu Dec 15, 2016 6:55 pm

chuckula wrote:
derFunkenstein wrote:
This is non-exciting, nap-inducing overclocking fun. My i5-6600K already does 4.6 pretty easily and temperatures are fine. I might get what, another 7% out of it for my trouble and $30 RockIt 88?

(actually, $30 ain't bad thought: do those things have to be re-lidded prior to use, or can you just clamp on an AIO cooler and be done with it? Cos honestly, that sounds fun).

Man, that thing makes delidding easy.  I hate it.

..why I can remember the day when we had to walk 2 miles in the snow just to get to the shed where the vice was that would make deliding a dicey proposition at best. :P
 
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Re: If you are getting Kaby Lake, go ahead & Delid it

Thu Dec 15, 2016 6:58 pm

derFunkenstein wrote:
 ..do those things have to be re-lidded prior to use, or can you just clamp on an AIO cooler and be done with it? 

I think most would say squeeze some liquid metal onto the cpu and then re-lid.  Well, perhaps except for the liquid nitrogen folks.
 
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Re: If you are getting Kaby Lake, go ahead & Delid it

Thu Dec 15, 2016 7:04 pm

chuckula wrote:
While interest in Kaby Lake may not be RyZen.. 

From the marketing materials it sounds as if RyZen* would benefit substantially more (delid, etc.) than Intel's processors.


*the "Ry" is just plain stupid.
 
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Re: If you are getting Kaby Lake, go ahead & Delid it

Thu Dec 15, 2016 7:27 pm

CScottG wrote:
derFunkenstein wrote:
 ..do those things have to be re-lidded prior to use, or can you just clamp on an AIO cooler and be done with it? 

I think most would say squeeze some liquid metal onto the cpu and then re-lid.  Well, perhaps except for the liquid nitrogen folks.

That's what I did. A dab of rubber cement/RTV at the corners of the IHS to hold it in place, and liquid metal between the die and IHS. Easy peasy.
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chuckula
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Re: If you are getting Kaby Lake, go ahead & Delid it

Thu Dec 15, 2016 8:24 pm

CScottG wrote:
chuckula wrote:
derFunkenstein wrote:
This is non-exciting, nap-inducing overclocking fun. My i5-6600K already does 4.6 pretty easily and temperatures are fine. I might get what, another 7% out of it for my trouble and $30 RockIt 88?

(actually, $30 ain't bad thought: do those things have to be re-lidded prior to use, or can you just clamp on an AIO cooler and be done with it? Cos honestly, that sounds fun).

Man, that thing makes delidding easy.  I hate it.

..why I can remember the day when we had to walk 2 miles in the snow just to get to the shed where the vice was that would make deliding a dicey proposition at best. :P


Actually that's exactly how I delidded my 4770k... except without the shed ;-)
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Re: If you are getting Kaby Lake, go ahead & Delid it

Thu Dec 15, 2016 8:53 pm

derFunkenstein wrote:
This is non-exciting, nap-inducing overclocking fun. My i5-6600K already does 4.6 pretty easily and temperatures are fine. I might get what, another 7% out of it for my trouble and $30 RockIt 88?

(actually, $30 ain't bad thought: do those things have to be re-lidded prior to use, or can you just clamp on an AIO cooler and be done with it? Cos honestly, that sounds fun).

You can use them without the heat spreaders, but last time I read up on it it was complicated. Takes a load bearing shim so you don't crack the CPU die/package, disassembly of the CPU clamp (not the cooler clamp) because it sits higher than the die does, and your cooler clamp/bracket has to be able to deal with the overall lower CPU height. 
 
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Re: If you are getting Kaby Lake, go ahead & Delid it

Thu Dec 15, 2016 9:08 pm

What I don't understand is why nobody is coming out with something like the Delid Die Guard from MSI.  MSI's product only comes with mainboards, and I'd easily pay $20-30 for one to ensure that I put even pressure on a delidded CPU, as I'd like to run the processor bare after a delid.

I'm not going to consider the process until I have that component, and so far, nothing.
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Re: If you are getting Kaby Lake, go ahead & Delid it

Thu Dec 15, 2016 9:21 pm

LoneWolf15 wrote:
What I don't understand is why nobody is coming out with something like the Delid Die Guard from MSI.  MSI's product only comes with mainboards, and I'd easily pay $20-30 for one to ensure that I put even pressure on a delidded CPU, as I'd like to run the processor bare after a delid.

I'm not going to consider the process until I have that component, and so far, nothing.

Borrow a nice caliper and DIY (..even if DIY is sending measurements off to a machine-shop). :wink:
http://www.emachineshop.com/machine-sho ... age78.html

PS: don't forget the liquid metal skim coat thickness.
 
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Re: If you are getting Kaby Lake, go ahead & Delid it

Thu Dec 15, 2016 10:36 pm

TwistedKestrel wrote:
You can use them without the heat spreaders, but last time I read up on it it was complicated. Takes a load bearing shim so you don't crack the CPU die/package, disassembly of the CPU clamp (not the cooler clamp) because it sits higher than the die does, and your cooler clamp/bracket has to be able to deal with the overall lower CPU height. 

That's exactly the sort of thing I was afraid of. It's fine. I can live, or so I tell myself. :lol:

Ugh, messed up a quote and then quoted again instead of editing. I'm going to bed.
Last edited by derFunkenstein on Thu Dec 15, 2016 10:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: If you are getting Kaby Lake, go ahead & Delid it

Fri Dec 16, 2016 12:07 am

Using crappy TIM under the lid seems even more strange when you consider that Kaby Lake may turn out to be just a slight respin netting a few hundred Mhz, and nothing more of value (in the CPU itself).  Wouldn't it have been much easier (and less expensive) to just use a better TIM under the lid of existing chips for the same result?

Or is the respin essentially free because it doesn't require new fab hardware?



(keep in mind, this is conjecture off an assumption which may or may not be true)
 
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Re: If you are getting Kaby Lake, go ahead & Delid it

Fri Dec 16, 2016 12:35 am

The Egg wrote:
Using crappy TIM under the lid seems even more strange when you consider that Kaby Lake may turn out to be just a slight respin netting a few hundred Mhz, and nothing more of value (in the CPU itself).  Wouldn't it have been much easier (and less expensive) to just use a better TIM under the lid of existing chips for the same result?

Or is the respin essentially free because it doesn't require new fab hardware?


The entire reason behind Kaby Lake (and now also Coffee Lake) was to use the same fab hardware over again until they can get viable results from their 10nm fabrication process. Originally it was supposed to go 14nm Skylake -> 10nm Cannonlake.

As for the TIM, Intel would probably get in trouble if it marketed Skylake chips under a new name with the only change being TIM. But it's a moot point because the goal of the respin is to buy Intel time. So they might as well put their engineers to work at least tweaking the uArch or doing something while they delay their roadmap for two whole years.
 
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Re: If you are getting Kaby Lake, go ahead & Delid it

Fri Dec 16, 2016 1:02 am

Kougar wrote:
The Egg wrote:
Using crappy TIM under the lid seems even more strange when you consider that Kaby Lake may turn out to be just a slight respin netting a few hundred Mhz, and nothing more of value (in the CPU itself).  Wouldn't it have been much easier (and less expensive) to just use a better TIM under the lid of existing chips for the same result?

Or is the respin essentially free because it doesn't require new fab hardware?


The entire reason behind Kaby Lake (and now also Coffee Lake) was to use the same fab hardware over again until they can get viable results from their 10nm fabrication process. Originally it was supposed to go 14nm Skylake -> 10nm Cannonlake.

As for the TIM, Intel would probably get in trouble if it marketed Skylake chips under a new name with the only change being TIM. But it's a moot point because the goal of the respin is to buy Intel time. So they might as well put their engineers to work at least tweaking the uArch or doing something while they delay their roadmap for two whole years.

Not necessarily a new name; maybe something like 6x50 chips with better clocks (then again, the model numbers are a crap-fest on the mobile side). I don't pretend to understand Intel's entire business or the costs involved in doing certain things. Like you said, it could be that some engineers would be sitting idle, or the respin may not have cost them much of anything to implement.

I'm mainly pointing out that if you look only at the end result, it seems odd to spend resources for a minor clockspeed bump only to turn around and use the same crappy TIM (when the TIM alone could have netted the same improvement). If they had gotten a few hundred Mhz from the respin AND used better TIM for a further boost, I would have nothing to say.
 
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Re: If you are getting Kaby Lake, go ahead & Delid it

Fri Dec 16, 2016 3:36 am

It is about the same with any 14nm silicon out there. Kaby Lake is no exception. I think the overclock community is still in shock that the days of "easy" overclocking are over. The period between Conroe through Sandy Bridge has spoiled them rotten.
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Re: If you are getting Kaby Lake, go ahead & Delid it

Fri Dec 16, 2016 7:18 am

The Egg wrote:
Wouldn't it have been much easier (and less expensive) to just use a better TIM under the lid of existing chips for the same result?

That's what Devil's Canyon was—the same Haswell silicon with a different TIM.
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Re: If you are getting Kaby Lake, go ahead & Delid it

Fri Dec 16, 2016 9:35 am

It might be "just the TIM" for reaching those clock speed targets with the same temperature

But that is not the poin! They operate with power budget and it is what counts (mainly in mobile ofc). Limitting max OC is irrelevant for mainstream consumer. 
It is sustainable clock reachable by their ULV processor restrained by 15W budget!

So they needed the respin and they can mostly get away with using crappy TIM as Average Joe doesent realy notice his cabbage lake i3 needs 5° higher temperature delta than his neighbours ski lake i3 to dissipate 51 watts.

(I am aware of lower leakege resulting from lower temps but I gues it isnt high enough to matter)
 
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Re: If you are getting Kaby Lake, go ahead & Delid it

Fri Dec 16, 2016 11:22 am

DancinJack wrote:
You can use it without a lid, but you better be totally one hundred percent fine with busting your CPU because it will more than likely happen if you're not careful. I personally wouldn't use an AIO cooler in that case because you can't tell how much pressure you're putting on the die. Then again, I'm a wuss, so take that for what you will.


I run a naked (no lid) 4790k, super easy to do with this kit: https://www.ekwb.com/shop/ek-supremacy- ... -naked-ivy and an EK block.

But you are correct, the Skylake chips are easy to break (I broke a 6700k), but is not the die that is the issue, it's the PCB is fewer layers than in the past and a good bit thinner. My cooler presses on the die and flexed the PCB enough to kill the chip. I wonder if Kaby Lake will be as thin? Also, EK's site and facebook both said that the naked kit was supported for the 6700k, then about a week later removed said support from all the broken chip reports (still not happy about that).
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Re: If you are getting Kaby Lake, go ahead & Delid it

Fri Dec 16, 2016 11:25 am

Yeah, I remembered reading about the thinner Skylake packages. All of it just makes me really nervous. :lol:
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Re: If you are getting Kaby Lake, go ahead & Delid it

Fri Dec 16, 2016 11:28 am

ColeLT1 wrote:
DancinJack wrote:
You can use it without a lid, but you better be totally one hundred percent fine with busting your CPU because it will more than likely happen if you're not careful. I personally wouldn't use an AIO cooler in that case because you can't tell how much pressure you're putting on the die. Then again, I'm a wuss, so take that for what you will.


I run a naked (no lid) 4790k, super easy to do with this kit: https://www.ekwb.com/shop/ek-supremacy- ... -naked-ivy and an EK block.

But you are correct, the Skylake chips are easy to break (I broke a 6700k), but is not the die that is the issue, it's the PCB is fewer layers than in the past and a good bit thinner. My cooler presses on the die and flexed the PCB enough to kill the chip. I wonder if Kaby Lake will be as thin? Also, EK's site and facebook both said that the naked kit was supported for the 6700k, then about a week later removed said support from all the broken chip reports (still not happy about that).

It's still worth delidding, changing TIM, and recapping, right?
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Re: If you are getting Kaby Lake, go ahead & Delid it

Fri Dec 16, 2016 11:39 am

derFunkenstein wrote:
Yeah, I remembered reading about the thinner Skylake packages. All of it just makes me really nervous. :lol:


The thin package has keep me from being comfortable deliding any more Skylake chips :<
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Re: If you are getting Kaby Lake, go ahead & Delid it

Fri Dec 16, 2016 11:49 am

ColeLT1 wrote:
derFunkenstein wrote:
Yeah, I remembered reading about the thinner Skylake packages. All of it just makes me really nervous. :lol:


The thin package has keep me from being comfortable deliding any more Skylake chips :<
http://i.imgur.com/WD8LSMD.jpg

but did you kill that one in the process of delidding it, or by running it without the lid?
 
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Re: If you are getting Kaby Lake, go ahead & Delid it

Fri Dec 16, 2016 11:57 am

Firestarter wrote:
but did you kill that one in the process of delidding it, or by running it without the lid?


Honestly will never know, but 99% sure it was killed when I put it on the board and put the cooler on it and the package flexed. The naked kits are designed where you remove the stock retention mechanism, the cooler itself holds the chip to the board, the kit itself is just the short length posts to compensate for the missing lid. There is no visible damage or a cracked die. We put the lid back on and tested it on multiple board, no POST.

That being said, most of the chips in the past, I used the vice method, but since this PCB was so thin I used the thin razor method, which is a PITA.

I have not decided on a Kaby or Ryzen build in Jan, but if Kaby, I will begrudgingly remove the lid and re-TIM it, cause this is who I have become lol (gotta go fast!)
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