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strangerguy
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Re: If you are getting Kaby Lake, go ahead & Delid it

Sun Dec 18, 2016 9:50 pm

Krogoth wrote:
It is about the same with any 14nm silicon out there. Kaby Lake is no exception. I think the overclock community is still in shock that the days of "easy" overclocking are over. The period between Conroe through Sandy Bridge has spoiled them rotten.

Ever since Devils Canyon with 4GHz+ i7s and the gradual decrease in realistic headroom since SB have made already made little sense overclocking from a cost-benefit perspective, by the time you invest in an i5 OC you would have easily spent just as much choosing a 4790K/6700K non-Z from the start (with better resale value too) and the former might not even beat the latter in MT even OCed, and every case it is well above CPU bottlenecking for gaming purposes.

Yet the "You should OC because still exists because its easy" meme still exists for some odd reason when even a 15 year enthusiast like me don't find OC appealing at all these days compared to old school Celeron 300A, Athlon Tbred B, low-clock C2D where I can get +50% OCs on budget CPUs and mobos.
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Waco
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Re: If you are getting Kaby Lake, go ahead & Delid it

Sun Dec 18, 2016 10:10 pm

Thankfully the hardware required to OC tends to stay constant - a good motherboard and decent cooling. Intel has kept a very similar socket layout for a VERY long time now, it isn't hard to continue pulling gear up to newer builds.

I do miss the days of crazy overclocks though. I have a 1700+ DLT3C sitting on my desk that happily ran over 1 GHz over the stock clock. It doesn't sound like much today, but going from 1.4 GHz to 2.5 GHz was HUGE. I think I still have my first Celeron parts as well, and a Pentium Overdrive chip that clocked quite well too.
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Captain Ned
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Re: If you are getting Kaby Lake, go ahead & Delid it

Sun Dec 18, 2016 10:15 pm

Waco wrote:
Intel has kept a very similar socket layout for a VERY long time now, it isn't hard to continue pulling gear up to newer builds.

Indeed. The Thermalright Ultra 120 Extreme that kept an E6600 happy at 3.2GHz (a 33% OC) for several years soldiers on today keeping the i7-4790K within a few degrees of ambient.
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Waco
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Re: If you are getting Kaby Lake, go ahead & Delid it

Sun Dec 18, 2016 10:18 pm

I've had the same watercooling setup (pump, tubing, reservoir, pump head, fittings, fans, etc) since my Q6600. The only thing that changed was my waterblock, and only because I wanted a new one. My prior D-Tek Fusion might not be the best with a modern CPU, but it'll do damn well with a lapped chip all the same.
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Captain Ned
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Re: If you are getting Kaby Lake, go ahead & Delid it

Sun Dec 18, 2016 10:33 pm

If your location is still correct, I grok the water cooling. Air up there is too thin to really breathe well, let alone cool anything.
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Waco
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Re: If you are getting Kaby Lake, go ahead & Delid it

Mon Dec 19, 2016 10:49 am

Captain Ned wrote:
If your location is still correct, I grok the water cooling. Air up there is too thin to really breathe well, let alone cool anything.

You'd be surprised how many vendors try to sell us systems and then panic when they realize the air isn't as good at cooling. :lol:
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chuckula
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Re: If you are getting Kaby Lake, go ahead & Delid it

Mon Dec 19, 2016 10:52 am

Waco wrote:
Captain Ned wrote:
If your location is still correct, I grok the water cooling.  Air up there is too thin to really breathe well, let alone cool anything.

You'd be surprised how many vendors try to sell us systems and then panic when they realize the air isn't as good at cooling. :lol:

What about all the Nukular Radeeayshuns?!?!!?! Don't they make cooling hard?  :P
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Re: If you are getting Kaby Lake, go ahead & Delid it

Mon Dec 19, 2016 10:53 am

The thinner air (and reduced shielding from cosmic rays that results from this) also means you get more DRAM bit flips on non-ECC systems. :wink:
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chuckula
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Re: If you are getting Kaby Lake, go ahead & Delid it

Mon Dec 19, 2016 10:56 am

just brew it! wrote:
The thinner air (and reduced shielding from cosmic rays that results from this) also means you get more DRAM bit flips on non-ECC systems. :wink:

That's actually a real issue unless you are in some sort of hardened facility. Another thing that theoretically comes to mind is that spinning hard drives need air to have the head float above the platter properly, and the thinner air might theoretically reduce their reliability (not sure if that's actually a real thing though). 
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Re: If you are getting Kaby Lake, go ahead & Delid it

Mon Dec 19, 2016 11:00 am

dodozoid wrote:
So they needed the respin and they can mostly get away with using crappy TIM as Average Joe doesent realy notice his cabbage lake i3 needs 5° higher temperature delta than his neighbours ski lake i3 to dissipate 51 watts.

Average Joe is probably using a laptop, which doesn't have an IHS (and the crappy TIM under it). It's just desktop users who get shafted. 
 
chuckula
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Re: If you are getting Kaby Lake, go ahead & Delid it

Mon Dec 19, 2016 11:05 am

Regarding the "crappy TIM" argument, if memory serves it's no so much the chemical composition of the TIM that's the problem. Instead, it's the variation in the spacing between the IHS and the surface of the CPU that's due to the adhesive used to mount the IHS to the chip's package that causes the biggest problems. 

While the transistors on these chips are manufactured with almost mind boggling precision, the rubber cement that attaches a hunk of metal to a PCB does not have the same precision by a long shot.
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Glorious
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Re: If you are getting Kaby Lake, go ahead & Delid it

Mon Dec 19, 2016 11:20 am

chuckula wrote:
Another thing that theoretically comes to mind is that spinning hard drives need air to have the head float above the platter properly, and the thinner air might theoretically reduce their reliability (not sure if that's actually a real thing though).


They can certainly design the heads to cope with dramatically less air density(Those He-filled drives are at like ~15%, that's almost out of the stratosphere, the problem was keeping such suckers sealed [for all time and eternity lol]), but that's not a trivial problem to handle dynamically I would imagine.

I would also imagine that what you would likely experience above 10k ft is a failure for the heads to even "unpark" from the landing zones.

At any event, Waco's location is comparable to typical passenger plane pressurization, so it should be well-within the realm of acceptable operation.
 
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Re: If you are getting Kaby Lake, go ahead & Delid it

Mon Dec 19, 2016 11:33 am

Wonder if  you could solder A IHS on yourself with a little torch or bake it on with some very low temp solder filings and a preheated block of steel to sit on the IHS to make good contact and get a wee bit of overflow over the edges? 
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Waco
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Re: If you are getting Kaby Lake, go ahead & Delid it

Mon Dec 19, 2016 11:59 am

just brew it! wrote:
The thinner air (and reduced shielding from cosmic rays that results from this) also means you get more DRAM bit flips on non-ECC systems. :wink:

Absolutely a problem for big systems. The thinner air is a bigger issue, but we definitely get more interesting crashes (even in low level caches) due to the altitude.

Glorious wrote:
At any event, Waco's location is comparable to typical passenger plane pressurization, so it should be well-within the realm of acceptable operation.

Servers and disk arrays generally aren't designed to run in passenger planes at altitude. :P Consumer hardware is generally okay, if a bit noisier than at sea level.
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Glorious
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Re: If you are getting Kaby Lake, go ahead & Delid it

Mon Dec 19, 2016 12:01 pm

Waco wrote:
Servers and disk arrays generally aren't designed to run in passenger planes at altitude.


hahah fair enough
 
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Re: If you are getting Kaby Lake, go ahead & Delid it

Mon Dec 19, 2016 12:09 pm

Glorious wrote:
I would also imagine that what you would likely experience above 10k ft is a failure for the heads to even "unpark" from the landing zones.

I don't think anyone uses landing zones any more. AFAIK they're all switched to using ramp load/unload. IIRC this transition started in the early '00s.
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Glorious
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Re: If you are getting Kaby Lake, go ahead & Delid it

Mon Dec 19, 2016 12:15 pm

JBI wrote:
I don't think anyone uses landing zones any more. AFAIK they're all switched to using ramp load/unload. IIRC this happened in the early '00s.


Those goofy tab things on the sides?

I guess I've actually seen that, I didn't really put my practical experience together with my completely out-of-date theoretical experience.

Thanks!
 
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Re: If you are getting Kaby Lake, go ahead & Delid it

Mon Dec 19, 2016 12:20 pm

Pretty good picture about halfway down this page: https://www.wdc.com/products/internal-s ... drive.html

And here's a whitepaper from HGST where they basically toot their own horn about being the vendor who introduced ramp load/unload to the PC HDD market: https://www.hgst.com/sites/default/file ... _FINAL.pdf
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Glorious
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Re: If you are getting Kaby Lake, go ahead & Delid it

Mon Dec 19, 2016 12:23 pm

JBI wrote:
where they basically toot their own horn


:lol: :lol:

HGST wrote:
The integration of ramp load/unload into 3.5-inch hard disk drives began in 2000 with HGST’s launch of the Deskstar 75GXP


Well, they might claim it now, but it originally wasn't *their* deathstar! 8)
 
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Re: If you are getting Kaby Lake, go ahead & Delid it

Mon Dec 19, 2016 12:30 pm

Glorious wrote:
JBI wrote:
where they basically toot their own horn

:lol: :lol:

HGST wrote:
The integration of ramp load/unload into 3.5-inch hard disk drives began in 2000 with HGST’s launch of the Deskstar 75GXP

Well, they might claim it now, but it originally wasn't *their* deathstar! 8)

They acquired IBM's HDD IP, engineers, and factories. I don't have a problem with them claiming it as "theirs".
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Re: If you are getting Kaby Lake, go ahead & Delid it

Mon Dec 19, 2016 12:33 pm

ColeLT1 wrote:
I have not decided on a Kaby or Ryzen build in Jan, but if Kaby, I will begrudgingly remove the lid and re-TIM it, cause this is who I have become lol (gotta go fast!)

to get back on topic, I think I'll probably end up doing that myself as well, if Ryzen is not competitive. For me, overclocking today would not be so much about getting the best bang for buck, but just to get the best possible bang at all, seeing as how I'll probably stick with the next CPU even longer than I've stuck with my i5-2500K. If I'm going to be using the same CPU for 5+ years then I want it to be as fast as I can possibly get it to run
 
Glorious
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Re: If you are getting Kaby Lake, go ahead & Delid it

Mon Dec 19, 2016 12:38 pm

JBI wrote:
They acquired IBM's HDD IP, engineers, and factories. I don't have a problem with them claiming it as "theirs".


Oh, no, that's not what I meant!

Yeah, it's theirs now, and they've only made it better (improving enormously from the get-go [the later deskstars were OK, but the scandal indelibly tarnished the brand I imagine] and up unto the paragon they are today). They are the brand to have, and I indeed I have many, many of them!

What I am saying is that claiming the infamous Deathstar in a document touting reliability enhancements is something only time can allow. *I* would be emphasizing "IBM's Deskstar" unless I had numerous successful generations under my belt too!
 
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Re: If you are getting Kaby Lake, go ahead & Delid it

Mon Dec 19, 2016 1:22 pm

Ahh, OK.

HGST drives were a fantastic deal for several years in the mid-'00s. They quickly got a handle on their QA issues, and were undercutting the competition on price to regain market share.
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Glorious
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Re: If you are getting Kaby Lake, go ahead & Delid it

Mon Dec 19, 2016 1:33 pm

JBI wrote:
They quickly got a handle on their QA issues, and were undercutting the competition on price to regain market share.


They still seem to be the best for reliability, and since the performance of these things is not even close to being a distinguishing factor for me, the only difference now is the price: They've definitely caught onto the fact they can charge a (well-deserved) premium for brand!

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