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Vhalidictes
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i3-7350K and Zen

Tue Jan 03, 2017 7:33 pm

In regards to the overclockable Kaby Lake i3:

Does anyone else get the idea that maybe Intel knows more than us, and they are releasing this CPU to ruin AMD's launch?

I can't imagine that Intel did it because they really care about small-budget system builders, or gaming in general...
 
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Re: i3-7350K and Zen

Tue Jan 03, 2017 7:38 pm

There's usually some attempt at thunder stealing around a big product launch, but whether it really amounts to anything is another story.  If Intel really wants to combat Zen(assuming Zen forces them to do so) an overclockable i3 probably isn't going to cut it.
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Re: i3-7350K and Zen

Tue Jan 03, 2017 7:50 pm

I definitely can agree with you, Redocbew - but in that case, why did Intel do it at all? 

I can only imagine that they are under some sort of pressure to get a good price/performance CPU out. 

They wouldn't do that for no reason, right?
 
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Re: i3-7350K and Zen

Tue Jan 03, 2017 7:52 pm

An overclocked dual-core part isn't going to "ruin" Zen's launch simply because they are aimed at totally different market segments.
While there will undoubtedly be some type of low-end Zen put on the market at some point in the future, it ain't launching anytime soon.
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Re: i3-7350K and Zen

Tue Jan 03, 2017 8:02 pm

There's also no turbo mode on an i3, so if Intel is going to have an unlocked multiplier somewhere it makes sense to have it there.
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Re: i3-7350K and Zen

Tue Jan 03, 2017 9:26 pm

I don't get what the big deal is or why you're looking for a theory on why they released it. Haven't people been asking for an unlocked i3 with HT for years? I'm pretty pumped for this CPU tbh, but I'm not gonna go looking for some long-winded reason for it being on shelves.
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Re: i3-7350K and Zen

Tue Jan 03, 2017 9:39 pm

Having run a 3.3Ghz 2500K at 4.2Ghz for almost 6 years now, I have to ask... why are people still interested in an unlocked i3 when the base clock is already 4.2Ghz? For that matter, overclocking on any of Intel's recent CPUs seems pretty uninteresting compared to older models.

With stock clocks so high that they are approaching architectural limits (due to horrible thermal performance beyond these speeds), I don't think overclocking really makes that much of a difference with Sky\Kaby Lake. If you can push a 4.2Ghz i3 to 5Ghz with a high end cooler and a high quality (not cheap) motherboard, it probably still won't be as fast as simply buying a quad core and running it at stock clocks on a cheaper board.
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Re: i3-7350K and Zen

Tue Jan 03, 2017 10:13 pm

You're still talking a 60 dollar delta between the two, that's nothing to sneeze at. I also think TDP has been a consideration in the past, though this part is only 5W less than i5-7600, but the i5-7600 is only @ 3.5 base. The only unlocked i5 seems to be the i5-7600k which carries a 91W TDP and 3.8 base clock.
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Re: i3-7350K and Zen

Tue Jan 03, 2017 11:09 pm

I have a feeling that the i5-7600K might end up being the better buy in the long run compared to the i3-7350K. This is probably rather cheesy, but... given than the i5-7600K starts at a much lower base clock of 3.8 GHz, if most dies "average out" between it and the i7-7700K, I suspect we might see some rather high clocking shenanigans... Doing the math, the i5 at 5 GHz would basically mean a 31.5% overclock.

For some reason that makes me... incredibly happy. In addition, this would be quite a bit faster than the i5-4590 and it's 3.3 GHz base speed. Combining the hertz increase (even stock-to-stock), IPC improvements, with other general platform niceties...

The i3 might make more sense once its prices start to fall a little bit and puts some distance between it and the lowest-end i5s. The i3s might also perform slightly better in tasks and games where single-threaded performance is paramount at stock, though given that the i5-K is likely to be overclocked, it muddies the picture.

As I'm planning ahead due to the fact that I'm very likely to move house should I get a more appropriate job, and I can't be bothered to ship my desktop elsewhere, I might be selling my desktop soon in exchange for funds to go towards my next build, which is likely to have an i5-7600K and a GTX 1060 6GB or the Volta equivalent if it exists by the time I rebuild it. Reading the review of the i5-7600K on Anandtech made me felt like waiting was finally worth it, really.
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Vhalidictes
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Re: i3-7350K and Zen

Tue Jan 03, 2017 11:35 pm

ozzuneoj wrote:
Having run a 3.3Ghz 2500K at 4.2Ghz for almost 6 years now, I have to ask... why are people still interested in an unlocked i3 when the base clock is already 4.2Ghz? For that matter, overclocking on any of Intel's recent CPUs seems pretty uninteresting compared to older models.

With stock clocks so high that they are approaching architectural limits (due to horrible thermal performance beyond these speeds), I don't think overclocking really makes that much of a difference with Sky\Kaby Lake. If you can push a 4.2Ghz i3 to 5Ghz with a high end cooler and a high quality (not cheap) motherboard, it probably still won't be as fast as simply buying a quad core and running it at stock clocks on a cheaper board.

Ozzuneoj, it's a "big deal" because it guts the value prospect of pretty much every non-K i5 model, and it does so at a price that will lower Intel's ASP. That is directly against Intel's interests even if it gives people part of what they've been asking for. I do agree that the overclocking aspect is probably minimal, but as you've said the clocks are defaulted to sky-high.

It's *already* been the case that the i5 was an iffy prospect from a price/performance perspective with Skylake because of the decent clocks of the higher i3 models, and that's before this "K" chip came out.

The only price tiers that matter are Celeron, i3 w/HT, i7 w/HT. Hyper-threading is simply good enough - an i5 is a crippled i7 for not much less money. Those three categories are fit the types of PCs that need to be built - Celeron for Office Work, i3 for Gaming PCs, and i7 for Power Users. 

The Pentium and i5 lines are bad value with iffy improvements, and as Intel has continued to refine IPC over the years the value in having a Pentium's "ooh 1MB more cache" and the i5's "two more physical cores" keep getting worse.
 
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Re: i3-7350K and Zen

Tue Jan 03, 2017 11:42 pm

Vhalidictes wrote:
ozzuneoj wrote:
Having run a 3.3Ghz 2500K at 4.2Ghz for almost 6 years now, I have to ask... why are people still interested in an unlocked i3 when the base clock is already 4.2Ghz? For that matter, overclocking on any of Intel's recent CPUs seems pretty uninteresting compared to older models.

With stock clocks so high that they are approaching architectural limits (due to horrible thermal performance beyond these speeds), I don't think overclocking really makes that much of a difference with Sky\Kaby Lake. If you can push a 4.2Ghz i3 to 5Ghz with a high end cooler and a high quality (not cheap) motherboard, it probably still won't be as fast as simply buying a quad core and running it at stock clocks on a cheaper board.

Ozzie, it's a "big deal" because it *guts* the value prospect of pretty much every non-K i5 model, and it does so at a price that will lower Intel's ASP. That is directly against Intel's interests even if it gives people part of what they've been asking for. I do agree that the overclocking aspect is probably minimal, but as you've said the clocks are defaulted to sky-high.

It's *already* been the case that the i5 was an iffy prospect from a price/performance perspective with Skylake because of the decent clocks of the higher i3 models, and that's before this "K" chip came out.

The only price tiers that matter are Celeron, i3 w/HT, i7 w/HT. Hyper-threading is simply good enough - an i5 is a crippled i7 for not much less money. Those three categories are fit the types of PCs that need to be built - Celeron for Office Work, i3 for Gaming PCs, and i7 for Power Users. 

The Pentium and i5 lines are bad value with iffy improvements, and as Intel has continued to refine IPC over the years the value in having a Pentium's "ooh 1MB more cache" and the i5's "two more physical cores" keep getting worse.

I'll have to respectfully disagree with the i5 being bad value, especially the i5-Ks - as you've said, hyper-threading does help, but it does not close the gap at all compared to simply having 2 additional cores. I regularly run video encodes with Handbrake from time to time, and the i3-K still has way too much of a performance deficit compared to the i5-K, for example. Even though I mostly game, I value having good productivity performance, too.This page on Anandtech's i5-7600K review does contain a lot of examples of various non-gaming tasks.
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Re: i3-7350K and Zen

Wed Jan 04, 2017 12:02 am

Marketing does shoot to steal limelight from competitors, but if this is all Intel has up their shelves then why release it a few weeks before AMD, rather than after?

Intel is probably holding something else back for after AMD's release date.
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Vhalidictes
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Re: i3-7350K and Zen

Wed Jan 04, 2017 12:07 am

Noinoi wrote:
Vhalidictes wrote:
It's *already* been the case that the i5 was an iffy prospect from a price/performance perspective with Skylake because of the decent clocks of the higher i3 models, and that's before this "K" chip came out.

The only price tiers that matter are Celeron, i3 w/HT, i7 w/HT. Hyper-threading is simply good enough - an i5 is a crippled i7 for not much less money. Those three categories are fit the types of PCs that need to be built - Celeron for Office Work, i3 for Gaming PCs, and i7 for Power Users. 

The Pentium and i5 lines are bad value with iffy improvements, and as Intel has continued to refine IPC over the years the value in having a Pentium's "ooh 1MB more cache" and the i5's "two more physical cores" keep getting worse.

I'll have to respectfully disagree with the i5 being bad value, especially the i5-Ks - as you've said, hyper-threading does help, but it does not close the gap at all compared to simply having 2 additional cores. I regularly run video encodes with Handbrake from time to time, and the i3-K still has way too much of a performance deficit compared to the i5-K, for example. Even though I mostly game, I value having good productivity performance, too.This page on Anandtech's i5-7600K review does contain a lot of examples of various non-gaming tasks.

Oh, I completely agree that those two physical cores have value for some builds. But take your PC as an example - you're running Handbrake without HT.... why?

Checking prices really quick online.... an i3-6100 is ~$120, i5-6500 is ~$210, and i7-6700 is ~$315 

Those 2 physical cores are 100 dollars better than HT, but at the same time someone wouldn't save up an additional $100 for a PC that needs threads? Threads are either important or they aren't, right? The middle-of-the-road CPU series is a 100% cost increase for a ~50% IPC improvement over HT (generic average taken).

Ultimately Intel is to blame with their horrible product segmentation, but within those parameters I struggle to understand someone with that set of needs other than perhaps someone who has to "buy it now" and can't wait to save up for an i7, or sacrifice other components to get the extra 50% an i7 would cost.

EDIT: The above also isn't considering the clock speed deficit that non-K i5's seem to be saddled with. Check Bench: Kaby Lake i7 vs i5 if you're curious. Looks like 50% is optimistic for the difference between cores and HT, it's typically less.
 
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Re: i3-7350K and Zen

Wed Jan 04, 2017 12:28 am

Here's a crazy theory, maybe they just want to sell a super fast dually to PC enthusiasts? The AE Pentium was a huge hit, and folks have been clamoring for something with crazy clock speeds ever since. Intel, as noted, isn't stupid and they'd surely like to make money by giving people what they want.

A more interesting question is what they think they'll accomplish by decreasing the price gap between an i3 and an i5.
 
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Re: i3-7350K and Zen

Wed Jan 04, 2017 12:32 am

NovusBogus wrote:
Here's a crazy theory, maybe they just want to sell a super fast dually to PC enthusiasts?  The AE Pentium was a huge hit, and folks have been clamoring for something with crazy clock speeds ever since.  Intel, as noted, isn't stupid and they'd surely like to make money by giving people what they want.

A more interesting question is what they think they'll accomplish by decreasing the price gap between an i3 and an i5.

Selling a lot less i5's, I imagine. Then again, maybe the PC-building market is just so tiny that it won't have any effect other than a small increase in goodwill?
 
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Re: i3-7350K and Zen

Wed Jan 04, 2017 12:33 am

Vhalidictes wrote:
Noinoi wrote:
Vhalidictes wrote:
It's *already* been the case that the i5 was an iffy prospect from a price/performance perspective with Skylake because of the decent clocks of the higher i3 models, and that's before this "K" chip came out.

The only price tiers that matter are Celeron, i3 w/HT, i7 w/HT. Hyper-threading is simply good enough - an i5 is a crippled i7 for not much less money. Those three categories are fit the types of PCs that need to be built - Celeron for Office Work, i3 for Gaming PCs, and i7 for Power Users. 

The Pentium and i5 lines are bad value with iffy improvements, and as Intel has continued to refine IPC over the years the value in having a Pentium's "ooh 1MB more cache" and the i5's "two more physical cores" keep getting worse.

I'll have to respectfully disagree with the i5 being bad value, especially the i5-Ks - as you've said, hyper-threading does help, but it does not close the gap at all compared to simply having 2 additional cores. I regularly run video encodes with Handbrake from time to time, and the i3-K still has way too much of a performance deficit compared to the i5-K, for example. Even though I mostly game, I value having good productivity performance, too.This page on Anandtech's i5-7600K review does contain a lot of examples of various non-gaming tasks.

Oh, I completely agree that those two physical cores have value for some builds. But take your PC as an example - you're running Handbrake without HT.... why?

Checking prices really quick online.... an i3-6100 is ~$120, i5-6500 is ~$210, and i7-6700 is ~$315 

Those 2 physical cores are 100 dollars better than HT, but at the same time someone wouldn't save up an additional $100 for a PC that needs threads? Threads are either important or they aren't, right? The middle-of-the-road CPU series is a 100% cost increase for a ~50% IPC improvement over HT (generic average taken).

Ultimately Intel is to blame with their horrible product segmentation, but within those parameters I struggle to understand someone with that set of needs other than perhaps someone who has to "buy it now" and can't wait to save up for an i7, or sacrifice other components to get the extra 50% an i7 would cost.

EDIT: The above also isn't considering the clock speed deficit that non-K i5's seem to be saddled with. Check Bench: Kaby Lake i7 vs i5 if you're curious. Looks like 50% is optimistic for the difference between cores and HT, it's typically less.


I'm not sure if I'm following you - the i5-7600K gets quite close to the i7-7700K at their stock clocks, while the i3-7350K is literally left behind in the dust despite its fairly high stock clocks and HT. Something is scaling up oddly, perhaps, but I wouldn't expect to be able to overclock an i3 to its edge and have it match the i5-7600K at a mild overclock.
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Re: i3-7350K and Zen

Wed Jan 04, 2017 1:05 am

Yeah I don't get it either.  The i5 seems like a fine choice to me even for relatively heavy workloads, and I think it's more accurate to say that an i7 is an i5 with hyperthreading enabled.  Fortunately, the dude is free buy an i7 any time they want even if nobody can make heads or tails of the reasons why they want one.
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Re: i3-7350K and Zen

Wed Jan 04, 2017 10:50 am

There's basically no overlap, I don't think. We're not supposed to be seeing Zen APUs for a while yet, and there's no way a 4C/8T harvested Ryzen CPU is going to approach that price range, IMO. I think Intel just likes money and if people are willing to pay quad-core prices for a dual-core CPU, they're stupid to not release it.
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Re: i3-7350K and Zen

Wed Jan 04, 2017 11:11 am

My thoughts are that Kaby Lake will be a bust for Intel (at least until Kaby Lake X comes out).  AMD has got this generation.
 
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Re: i3-7350K and Zen

Wed Jan 04, 2017 11:21 am

You seem to be perched precariously upon that creaking limb.
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Vhalidictes
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Re: i3-7350K and Zen

Wed Jan 04, 2017 12:13 pm

Redocbew wrote:
Yeah I don't get it either.  The i5 seems like a fine choice to me even for relatively heavy workloads, and I think it's more accurate to say that an i7 is an i5 with hyperthreading enabled.  Fortunately, the dude is free buy an i7 any time they want even if nobody can make heads or tails of the reasons why they want one.

I get it now. You're essentially asking "why bother with a i7 at all"? Given how well HT seems to work in most use cases, I disagree. 
I do think that most people only need 2 or 4 cores, but I don't think they need to be physical ones.

Noinoi wrote:
I'm not sure if I'm following you - the i5-7600K gets quite close to the i7-7700K at their stock clocks, while the i3-7350K is literally left behind in the dust despite its fairly high stock clocks and HT. Something is scaling up oddly, perhaps, but I wouldn't expect to be able to overclock an i3 to its edge and have it match the i5-7600K at a mild overclock.

I didn't actually look at Kaby Lake i3 HT vs i5 - my experiences were mostly comparing 4 core with/without HT. I'll check now, but I'll take your word for it. If so, that's weird and doesn't make a ton of sense. Possibly the difference in cache size is making a difference?
Last edited by Vhalidictes on Wed Jan 04, 2017 12:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
Vhalidictes
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Re: i3-7350K and Zen

Wed Jan 04, 2017 12:13 pm

gmskking wrote:
My thoughts are that Kaby Lake will be a bust for Intel (at least until Kaby Lake X comes out).  AMD has got this generation.

Kaby Lake is a bust whatever AMD does. Intel is its own competition with Skylake.
 
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Re: i3-7350K and Zen

Wed Jan 04, 2017 2:27 pm

gmskking wrote:
My thoughts are that Kaby Lake will be a bust for Intel (at least until Kaby Lake X comes out).  AMD has got this generation.


lol what? AMD has got this generation. I want to bookmark this so we can come back a couple years from now and see who sold more.
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Re: i3-7350K and Zen

Wed Jan 11, 2017 4:59 am

i3-K for $175, what?

IMO, Intel's current desktop CPU market segmentation scheme has gone mad to the point where there is nothing really worth buying between $64 and $330, even if Zen didn't existed.
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Re: i3-7350K and Zen

Wed Jan 11, 2017 12:33 pm

strangerguy wrote:
i3-K for $175, what?

IMO, Intel's current desktop CPU market segmentation scheme has gone mad to the point where there is nothing really worth buying between $64 and $330, even if Zen didn't existed.

Some people like the i5 series since they figure the lack of HT isn't that crippling. IMO, it's a pretty big lack, but.... product segmentation. Note that some of the lower end Pentiums have a lot more cache than Celerons so for specific workloads they could be worth a look. Not to mention that they suffer from the same lack as the i5, Intel's best feature, HT is missing.

Myself, I'd say the two price points worth looking at are ~$100 and ~$300 (spread due to multiple generations (4-7) all being worth buying), but as always YMMV.
 
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Re: i3-7350K and Zen

Wed Jan 11, 2017 12:43 pm

strangerguy wrote:
i3-K for $175, what?

IMO, Intel's current desktop CPU market segmentation scheme has gone mad to the point where there is nothing really worth buying between $64 and $330, even if Zen didn't existed.

I get what you're saying, but unlocked i5s are definitely worth investigating. Between $64 and $240, I'm all on board with that.
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